Pope Francis calls abortion ‘unjust’

(AP Photo/Osservatore Romano, HO) QUOTE OF THE DAY | In all its phases and at every age, human life is … Continued

(AP Photo/Osservatore Romano, HO)

QUOTE OF THE DAY |

In all its phases and at every age, human life is always sacred and always of quality. And not as a matter of faith, but of reason and science! [...] Every unborn child, though unjustly condemned to be aborted, has the face of the Lord, who even before his birth, and then as soon as he was born, experienced the rejection of the world. And every old person, even if infirm and at the end of his days, carries with him the face of Christ. They must not be thrown away!

Pope Francis on the sacredness of all life

Read more on religion, culture and politics at the Berkley Center for Religion, Peace & World Affairs at Georgetown University.

  • di89

    It’s sad that we have to print this to prove that Francis did not change Church teaching on abortion, because people were having fits because he said maybe we ought to put it in a wider context and give other aspects of Church teaching a turn for attention, too.

  • di89

    It’s sad that we have to print this to prove that Francis did not change Church teaching on abortion, because people were having fits because he said maybe we ought to put it in a wider context and give other aspects of Church teaching a turn for attention, too.

  • DEC1123

    “… through actions and words, that in all its phases and at any age, life is always sacred and always of quality. And not as a matter of faith, but of reason and science! There is no human life more sacred than another, just as there exists no human life qualitatively more meaningful than another”

    Pope Francis

  • DEC1123

    “… through actions and words, that in all its phases and at any age, life is always sacred and always of quality. And not as a matter of faith, but of reason and science! There is no human life more sacred than another, just as there exists no human life qualitatively more meaningful than another”

    Pope Francis

  • Catken1

    Women, on the other hand, aren’t really people, and it’s OK to treat them as property for the good of someone else, even if they die as a result.
    Also, existing children who will lack for food or clothing or education if they have too many siblings – yeah, they don’t matter either.
    Neither do those who will die of famine or disease or environmental catastrophe because they live in hugely overpopulated areas with exhausted soil and filthy air and water.

  • Catken1

    Women, on the other hand, aren’t really people, and it’s OK to treat them as property for the good of someone else, even if they die as a result.
    Also, existing children who will lack for food or clothing or education if they have too many siblings – yeah, they don’t matter either.
    Neither do those who will die of famine or disease or environmental catastrophe because they live in hugely overpopulated areas with exhausted soil and filthy air and water.

  • cricket44

    Savita Halappanavar…THAT is unjust.

  • cricket44

    Savita Halappanavar…THAT is unjust.

  • Openletter2004

    “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” Said by JESUS to the scribes, Pharisees, and rabbi’s who were the Jewish Government under the Roman Empire.

    This means that Jesus refused to become part of or use the power of GOVERNMENT to punish the woman and terrorize other women into following “the law”.

  • Openletter2004

    “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” Said by JESUS to the scribes, Pharisees, and rabbi’s who were the Jewish Government under the Roman Empire.

    This means that Jesus refused to become part of or use the power of GOVERNMENT to punish the woman and terrorize other women into following “the law”.

  • Whiteguy for diversity

    Yes, all life is sacred. But is it “just” to force a religious belief on everyone, even if it brings unwanted children into the world, who then suffer the pain of neglect, abuse, and poverty that often comes it?

    Right wing Christian Republicans appear to have this view–force any and all fetuses to be born, under any conditions, then cut off any public source of help for them–like they did this week cutting food stamps and defunding health care. Oh, and give everyone guns to make sure the murder rate stays among the world’s highest, and uphold the death penalty, because life is so sacred.

  • Whiteguy for diversity

    Yes, all life is sacred. But is it “just” to force a religious belief on everyone, even if it brings unwanted children into the world, who then suffer the pain of neglect, abuse, and poverty that often comes it?

    Right wing Christian Republicans appear to have this view–force any and all fetuses to be born, under any conditions, then cut off any public source of help for them–like they did this week cutting food stamps and defunding health care. Oh, and give everyone guns to make sure the murder rate stays among the world’s highest, and uphold the death penalty, because life is so sacred.

  • Catken1

    ” There is no human life more sacred than another, just as there exists no human life qualitatively more meaningful than another”

    If that’s true, why does the Church argue that one human being has the right to live inside another human being and use her organs without her consent, at great cost and with great risk to her? Surely that suggests a view that fetuses are more sacred, and their lives more meaningful, than their mothers’ – after all, no human otherwise has that right.

  • Catken1

    ” There is no human life more sacred than another, just as there exists no human life qualitatively more meaningful than another”

    If that’s true, why does the Church argue that one human being has the right to live inside another human being and use her organs without her consent, at great cost and with great risk to her? Surely that suggests a view that fetuses are more sacred, and their lives more meaningful, than their mothers’ – after all, no human otherwise has that right.

  • J. Davis

    Well, the facts that you are imagining and making up about the case are, definitely, unjust.

    However, there is no evidence that carrying the fetus caused her to have septicemia. She died of the septicemia (blood-poisoning) which was unrelated to her carrying the 17-week old fetus.

    There were, in fact, at least three causes of her death (according to court documents). All of them were related to malpractice on the part of the hospital (not the fetus).

    However, pro-abortionists took up the cry of “injustice” and “murder by fetus” because it was easy in the case to distort the facts, and, fool the public so that pro-child-killers continue murdering the unborn. THAT is unjust.

  • J. Davis

    Well, the facts that you are imagining and making up about the case are, definitely, unjust.

    However, there is no evidence that carrying the fetus caused her to have septicemia. She died of the septicemia (blood-poisoning) which was unrelated to her carrying the 17-week old fetus.

    There were, in fact, at least three causes of her death (according to court documents). All of them were related to malpractice on the part of the hospital (not the fetus).

    However, pro-abortionists took up the cry of “injustice” and “murder by fetus” because it was easy in the case to distort the facts, and, fool the public so that pro-child-killers continue murdering the unborn. THAT is unjust.

  • J. Davis

    To answer your question, Catken1 – the Church also decreed that YOU, yourself, had “the right to live inside another human being and use her organs without her consent, at great cost and with great risk to her?”

  • J. Davis

    To answer your question, Catken1 – the Church also decreed that YOU, yourself, had “the right to live inside another human being and use her organs without her consent, at great cost and with great risk to her?”

  • J. Davis

    I agree with you that the death penalty is wrong. The Church also teaches that the death penalty is wrong. I also agree that the “right wing republicans” are self-seeking and corrupt in defunding aid to the poor.

    However, I also believe that an unborn life has a right to live, if it is possible. It is not for you to judge the quality of someone’s life.

    I have seen many people in terrible poverty who did a great deal to contribute not only to their own happiness, but, contribute to helping others and making the world a better place.

    Beethoven is a good example. He was almost aborted by his mother. During his lifetime, he had some financial success, but, squandered most of it. Then, he became very ill at the age of 50, and also became very deaf (with the serious illness as a complicating factor). He lie in his bed, ill, old, and fearful of his ability to go on living. He wrote in his diary: “I have no income. I am ill. How am I to go on living.” He prayed.

    A religious group in England contacted him and offered him 1,000 pounds to write a new symphony. He undertook the task, and the money allowed him to continue living.

    The group brought him from Germany to London for the first performance of the symphony. He was completely deaf when he wrote it. When the performance was finished, he had to turn and look at the audience because he could not hear their reaction to the symphony.

    He received seven standing ovations. The priests had to clear out the auditorium to stop the applause.

    We now know that symphony as his 9th. Symphony.

    It is not for you, or anyone else (including a woman carrying an unborn child) to judge whether God wants them to be born, and, what their “quality of life” will be.

  • J. Davis

    I agree with you that the death penalty is wrong. The Church also teaches that the death penalty is wrong. I also agree that the “right wing republicans” are self-seeking and corrupt in defunding aid to the poor.

    However, I also believe that an unborn life has a right to live, if it is possible. It is not for you to judge the quality of someone’s life.

    I have seen many people in terrible poverty who did a great deal to contribute not only to their own happiness, but, contribute to helping others and making the world a better place.

    Beethoven is a good example. He was almost aborted by his mother. During his lifetime, he had some financial success, but, squandered most of it. Then, he became very ill at the age of 50, and also became very deaf (with the serious illness as a complicating factor). He lie in his bed, ill, old, and fearful of his ability to go on living. He wrote in his diary: “I have no income. I am ill. How am I to go on living.” He prayed.

    A religious group in England contacted him and offered him 1,000 pounds to write a new symphony. He undertook the task, and the money allowed him to continue living.

    The group brought him from Germany to London for the first performance of the symphony. He was completely deaf when he wrote it. When the performance was finished, he had to turn and look at the audience because he could not hear their reaction to the symphony.

    He received seven standing ovations. The priests had to clear out the auditorium to stop the applause.

    We now know that symphony as his 9th. Symphony.

    It is not for you, or anyone else (including a woman carrying an unborn child) to judge whether God wants them to be born, and, what their “quality of life” will be.

  • persiflage

    I thought the Pope just advised clergy to stop talking about abortion incessantly – and here he is, talking about it. He did also imply that the ultra-conservative faction has been pushing him to continue making a big dea out of it – the Catholic Church does have their own version of the clerical Tea Party, after all.

    Falling back on supernatural doctrines as a strategy for jousting with civil laws is never a winner – and who knows, maybe this Pope is a wee bit smarter than his recent predecessors in terms of practical realities.

  • persiflage

    I thought the Pope just advised clergy to stop talking about abortion incessantly – and here he is, talking about it. He did also imply that the ultra-conservative faction has been pushing him to continue making a big dea out of it – the Catholic Church does have their own version of the clerical Tea Party, after all.

    Falling back on supernatural doctrines as a strategy for jousting with civil laws is never a winner – and who knows, maybe this Pope is a wee bit smarter than his recent predecessors in terms of practical realities.

  • J. Davis

    “Supernatural doctrines” (which educated persons term “metaphysics”) have lasted much, much longer than civil laws in the history of man.

  • J. Davis

    “Supernatural doctrines” (which educated persons term “metaphysics”) have lasted much, much longer than civil laws in the history of man.

  • persiflage

    Very fortunately, Catholic theocracy was replaced by secular government around the time of the Enlightenment and the nascent rise of science………..metaphysics may be entertaining and most probably provides a modicum of emotional comfort to believers. But none of it is based on hard evidence and proven fact in the natural world.

    However, the superstitions of religion has been superceded by logic, common sense, and egalitarian values, as societies evolved into democratic institutions in the West.

  • persiflage

    Very fortunately, Catholic theocracy was replaced by secular government around the time of the Enlightenment and the nascent rise of science………..metaphysics may be entertaining and most probably provides a modicum of emotional comfort to believers. But none of it is based on hard evidence and proven fact in the natural world.

    However, the superstitions of religion has been superceded by logic, common sense, and egalitarian values, as societies evolved into democratic institutions in the West.

  • J. Davis

    The “superstitions” of religion have not been superseded by anything. Some have replaced the “superstitions of religion” with the superstitions of lawyers and the illusions created by mass media.

    There is an excellent work on “Ancient Law” written by Prof. Henry Sumner Maine at Cambridge right at the end of our Civil War. In it, he sagely reviews the rise of “The Age of Enlightenment” and the “Age of Reason.” He remarks that the encyclopedists in France rejected “The Law Of Moses” as a basis for governance – “in rejecting the laws of Moses as a basis of governance, the encyclopedists rejected the superstitions of the priests and rushed headlong into the superstitions of the lawyers.”

    What you consider to be “logic, common sense, and egalitarian values” has been nothing more than an illusion to support police states in lieu of religious tolerance.

  • J. Davis

    The “superstitions” of religion have not been superseded by anything. Some have replaced the “superstitions of religion” with the superstitions of lawyers and the illusions created by mass media.

    There is an excellent work on “Ancient Law” written by Prof. Henry Sumner Maine at Cambridge right at the end of our Civil War. In it, he sagely reviews the rise of “The Age of Enlightenment” and the “Age of Reason.” He remarks that the encyclopedists in France rejected “The Law Of Moses” as a basis for governance – “in rejecting the laws of Moses as a basis of governance, the encyclopedists rejected the superstitions of the priests and rushed headlong into the superstitions of the lawyers.”

    What you consider to be “logic, common sense, and egalitarian values” has been nothing more than an illusion to support police states in lieu of religious tolerance.

  • J. Davis

    I ♥ Pope Francis.

  • J. Davis

    I ♥ Pope Francis.

  • cricket44

    Ah, JD, ever the supporter of women suffering and ignoring any facts that don’t support your fetish. Still ‘liking’ your own posts, too.

  • cricket44

    Ah, JD, ever the supporter of women suffering and ignoring any facts that don’t support your fetish. Still ‘liking’ your own posts, too.

  • persiflage

    ;What you consider to be “logic, common sense, and egalitarian values” has been nothing more than an illusion to support police states in lieu of religious tolerance.’

    So that’s what you think of democratic governments throughout Europe and North America?

    ……..sounds like convoluted thinking that one associates with religious extremism to me……..

  • persiflage

    ;What you consider to be “logic, common sense, and egalitarian values” has been nothing more than an illusion to support police states in lieu of religious tolerance.’

    So that’s what you think of democratic governments throughout Europe and North America?

    ……..sounds like convoluted thinking that one associates with religious extremism to me……..

  • vmbland1

    The Catholic Church’s position on abortion came about in the late 1800′s. That is when they decided that it was murder. Prior to this time, the view was that a woman had an abortion to hide the sin of sex. Also, check out St Augustine and his position on abortion. It was okay up until the time of quickening. One can drive an 18 wheeler through the church’s current position on abortion. Knowing this church they made it murder to insure that the world had enough Catholics. Disclosure: I am a lapsed Catholic and have no intention rushing back to this church.

  • vmbland1

    The Catholic Church’s position on abortion came about in the late 1800′s. That is when they decided that it was murder. Prior to this time, the view was that a woman had an abortion to hide the sin of sex. Also, check out St Augustine and his position on abortion. It was okay up until the time of quickening. One can drive an 18 wheeler through the church’s current position on abortion. Knowing this church they made it murder to insure that the world had enough Catholics. Disclosure: I am a lapsed Catholic and have no intention rushing back to this church.

  • J. Davis

    Not at all. I very much support democracy (even in its Republican forms).

    However, as the National Socialists discovered, mass media is a powerful tool for police states. What we have now is not democracy and true capitalism. What we have now is statism and collectivism.

    Our current culture, and civil “governance” has little relation to the democratic principles contained in the origins of democracy in ancient Greece, or, the inception of our nation under such leaders as Jefferson, Madison and Adams.

    The essence of the Age of Enlightenment and the Age of Reason was to make the government subservient to the People (not the other way around).

    Our current “law and order” obsession is merely a police state. Those who are most successful at corrupting this police state are the ones who profit the most from it – not the people. If you read all of what Pope Francis is saying, he exposes the current world governments for what they are – self-serving states that serve only themselves, and those that are corrupted and controlled by them.

    Our current “government” in the United States more closely resembles the state of affairs predicted in Orwell’s “1984.” Our government and mass media uses phrases like “logic, common sense, and egalitarian values” only to deceive the populace into believing that we have a democracy.

    In fact, our current governments crush the spirit of the individual humans those governments were designed to serve, and, enslave them toward collective objectives determined by self-seeking interests that pay only lip service to the needs of the people as individuals.

  • J. Davis

    Not at all. I very much support democracy (even in its Republican forms).

    However, as the National Socialists discovered, mass media is a powerful tool for police states. What we have now is not democracy and true capitalism. What we have now is statism and collectivism.

    Our current culture, and civil “governance” has little relation to the democratic principles contained in the origins of democracy in ancient Greece, or, the inception of our nation under such leaders as Jefferson, Madison and Adams.

    The essence of the Age of Enlightenment and the Age of Reason was to make the government subservient to the People (not the other way around).

    Our current “law and order” obsession is merely a police state. Those who are most successful at corrupting this police state are the ones who profit the most from it – not the people. If you read all of what Pope Francis is saying, he exposes the current world governments for what they are – self-serving states that serve only themselves, and those that are corrupted and controlled by them.

    Our current “government” in the United States more closely resembles the state of affairs predicted in Orwell’s “1984.” Our government and mass media uses phrases like “logic, common sense, and egalitarian values” only to deceive the populace into believing that we have a democracy.

    In fact, our current governments crush the spirit of the individual humans those governments were designed to serve, and, enslave them toward collective objectives determined by self-seeking interests that pay only lip service to the needs of the people as individuals.

  • SongOfSappho

    The report, described by Minister for Health James Reilly as a “hard-hitting report which spares nobody and doesn’t pull any punches”, identifies three main factors which led to Ms Halappanavar’s death.

    They include:
    - A failure to adhere to clinical guidelines for prompt and effective management of sepsis when it was diagnosed

    - Not offering all management options to the patient as she experienced inevitable miscarriage, even though the risk she faced increased from the time her membranes ruptured

    - Inadequate assessment and monitoring that would have allowed the clinical team to recognise and respond to the signs that her condition was deteriorating.

    The report, which does not mention any names, also makes significant recommendations aimed at improving legal clarity and medical handling of complicated obstetric emergencies, including sepsis which led to Mrs Halappanavar’s death.

  • SongOfSappho

    The report, described by Minister for Health James Reilly as a “hard-hitting report which spares nobody and doesn’t pull any punches”, identifies three main factors which led to Ms Halappanavar’s death.

    They include:
    - A failure to adhere to clinical guidelines for prompt and effective management of sepsis when it was diagnosed

    - Not offering all management options to the patient as she experienced inevitable miscarriage, even though the risk she faced increased from the time her membranes ruptured

    - Inadequate assessment and monitoring that would have allowed the clinical team to recognise and respond to the signs that her condition was deteriorating.

    The report, which does not mention any names, also makes significant recommendations aimed at improving legal clarity and medical handling of complicated obstetric emergencies, including sepsis which led to Mrs Halappanavar’s death.

  • disgusted18

    Disgusted 18

    Whiteguy, how about the people who brought the fetuse into the world taking care of it and NOT the government!

  • disgusted18

    Disgusted 18

    Whiteguy, how about the people who brought the fetuse into the world taking care of it and NOT the government!

  • cricket44

    No. Her mother decreed that with her consent.

  • cricket44

    No. Her mother decreed that with her consent.

  • cricket44

    The abortion she requested would have saved her life. Religious policies in hospitals are dangerous to patients.

  • cricket44

    The abortion she requested would have saved her life. Religious policies in hospitals are dangerous to patients.

  • kewake

    What a ridiculous comparison to the tragedy of daily lives ended with abortion. This was one woman in Ireland. And if you read most of the scripts, you will see and read, that they waited to ask for the abortion. She was already having a miscarriage. I had one too. I waited two days before going in when I did not pass the fetus on my own. I could have died from the same fate. And the Catholic church does not put it’s religious polices in hospitals. These hospitals choose to run/work with the money that they get from the generous church. And choose to follow their beliefs. Dont go to a Catholic run hospital then if you would like to end the life of your preborn child. Just like the cries that religion should not be imposed on laws and human choice, you can chose who your care provider is.
    So incredibly tired of everyone saying how the church imposes itself on so many. Please. You have so many “choices” these days all of our heads are spinning. Stop blaming the church. And start looking at yourselves.

  • kewake

    What a ridiculous comparison to the tragedy of daily lives ended with abortion. This was one woman in Ireland. And if you read most of the scripts, you will see and read, that they waited to ask for the abortion. She was already having a miscarriage. I had one too. I waited two days before going in when I did not pass the fetus on my own. I could have died from the same fate. And the Catholic church does not put it’s religious polices in hospitals. These hospitals choose to run/work with the money that they get from the generous church. And choose to follow their beliefs. Dont go to a Catholic run hospital then if you would like to end the life of your preborn child. Just like the cries that religion should not be imposed on laws and human choice, you can chose who your care provider is.
    So incredibly tired of everyone saying how the church imposes itself on so many. Please. You have so many “choices” these days all of our heads are spinning. Stop blaming the church. And start looking at yourselves.

  • Catken1

    “However, I also believe that an unborn life has a right to live, if it is possible”

    Be honest and finish that sentence. “However, I also believe that an unborn life has a right to live, if it is possible, inside another person’s body and using her resources to sustain itself without need for her consent or concern for what may happen to her as a result, because a woman loses all rights to be treated as a human being when she loses her virginity.”

    I have a right to live, too. Do I have the right to take your blood or bone marrow, or even my mother’s, without your or her consent, to sustain that life? And pregnancy costs a lot more in terms of time, resources, energy and risk than a blood donation…how many great geniuses, how many musicians, how many brilliant thinkers have died because we have failed to make other people’s bodies their property when they have needed them?

  • Catken1

    “However, I also believe that an unborn life has a right to live, if it is possible”

    Be honest and finish that sentence. “However, I also believe that an unborn life has a right to live, if it is possible, inside another person’s body and using her resources to sustain itself without need for her consent or concern for what may happen to her as a result, because a woman loses all rights to be treated as a human being when she loses her virginity.”

    I have a right to live, too. Do I have the right to take your blood or bone marrow, or even my mother’s, without your or her consent, to sustain that life? And pregnancy costs a lot more in terms of time, resources, energy and risk than a blood donation…how many great geniuses, how many musicians, how many brilliant thinkers have died because we have failed to make other people’s bodies their property when they have needed them?

  • Catken1

    ” Just like the cries that religion should not be imposed on laws and human choice, you can chose who your care provider is. ”

    Sure, if there’s more than one hospital in the area, and if you’re conscious and alert enough to express a choice.
    And what you are saying is effectively, “Don’t go to a Catholic hospital if you’re female and want to be treated as a human being rather than an incubator.” Your religious beliefs do not trump the human status of your patients. You may not treat black people as organ farms to be harvested for the good of white people, you may not treat Catholics as blood cows to be “milked” for the good of Protestants, and you may not treat women as incubators to be used for the good of unborn children.

  • Catken1

    ” Just like the cries that religion should not be imposed on laws and human choice, you can chose who your care provider is. ”

    Sure, if there’s more than one hospital in the area, and if you’re conscious and alert enough to express a choice.
    And what you are saying is effectively, “Don’t go to a Catholic hospital if you’re female and want to be treated as a human being rather than an incubator.” Your religious beliefs do not trump the human status of your patients. You may not treat black people as organ farms to be harvested for the good of white people, you may not treat Catholics as blood cows to be “milked” for the good of Protestants, and you may not treat women as incubators to be used for the good of unborn children.

  • Catken1

    Exactly. I was born after Roe v. Wade – my mother CHOSE to give me life, as I CHOSE to give life to my son. My life is the free gift of a free woman, not a duty demanded from a slave or a function extracted from a mindless, soulless incubator. I was not entitled to claim the use of her body had she not wished to give it, just as she could have given me up for adoption had she not wished to or been unable to provide me the care I needed as a child. She chose to give me both, and I choose the same for my son – but it is a free choice, and ought to be, because it is a costly one.

    IF your mother had given you a kidney donation when you badly needed one, would your proper response be, “Thank you, Mom. I know you could have said no to that gift, and I’m so grateful you chose to give it to me anyway,” or would it be expressing proper gratitude to say, “Well, I’m glad you underwent that procedure, but it was only what you owed me anyway. You shouldn’t have had the right to say no, because your body ought to belong to me – after all, you chose slavery when you chose not to be a lifelong celibate, didn’t you?”

  • Catken1

    Exactly. I was born after Roe v. Wade – my mother CHOSE to give me life, as I CHOSE to give life to my son. My life is the free gift of a free woman, not a duty demanded from a slave or a function extracted from a mindless, soulless incubator. I was not entitled to claim the use of her body had she not wished to give it, just as she could have given me up for adoption had she not wished to or been unable to provide me the care I needed as a child. She chose to give me both, and I choose the same for my son – but it is a free choice, and ought to be, because it is a costly one.

    IF your mother had given you a kidney donation when you badly needed one, would your proper response be, “Thank you, Mom. I know you could have said no to that gift, and I’m so grateful you chose to give it to me anyway,” or would it be expressing proper gratitude to say, “Well, I’m glad you underwent that procedure, but it was only what you owed me anyway. You shouldn’t have had the right to say no, because your body ought to belong to me – after all, you chose slavery when you chose not to be a lifelong celibate, didn’t you?”

  • kewake

    I never said my religious beliefs trump anything. Again, tons of choices out there. Chose what fits your life. And stop blaming my church for your problems. Seriously. My church is the most generous and kind church and actually takes care of women and children. It is disgusting that people with no true knowledge of the church can even open their mouths to disparage them. Go out and actually learn what they do and how they do it. You, Catken, are grossly wrong with what the Catholic Church is. I will pray that you actually go out and learn about them.

  • kewake

    I never said my religious beliefs trump anything. Again, tons of choices out there. Chose what fits your life. And stop blaming my church for your problems. Seriously. My church is the most generous and kind church and actually takes care of women and children. It is disgusting that people with no true knowledge of the church can even open their mouths to disparage them. Go out and actually learn what they do and how they do it. You, Catken, are grossly wrong with what the Catholic Church is. I will pray that you actually go out and learn about them.

  • persiflage

    ‘………under such leaders as Jefferson, Madison and Adams.’

    I dare say our Forefathers would have used artifical birth control methods had they been available, being the smart guys that they were. And none were Catholic either.

  • persiflage

    ‘………under such leaders as Jefferson, Madison and Adams.’

    I dare say our Forefathers would have used artifical birth control methods had they been available, being the smart guys that they were. And none were Catholic either.

  • cricket44

    With big mergers, many smaller hospitals are being taken over by Catholic businesses. It’s obscene and unethical to hold women’s health hostage to a religious belief.

  • cricket44

    With big mergers, many smaller hospitals are being taken over by Catholic businesses. It’s obscene and unethical to hold women’s health hostage to a religious belief.

  • Catken1

    “Again, tons of choices out there.”

    Not in every vicinity, and not if you are not conscious and able to make a choice.

    “My church is the most generous and kind church and actually takes care of women and children.”

    Until a girl is raped, at which point the rapist’s child becomes more important than her well-being and sanity. Or until a pregnancy endangers her life, at which point she may be allowed to die in favor of allowing the baby to be born and endure a day or two of pain before it dies, rather than allowing her to have the decades of life an abortion might have bought her. Or until she decides she has as many children as she can properly care for or her health permits, at which point your church berates her for not having more, even though that would endanger the ones she already has and damage her own life and her own health in the process.

    Sorry, you can’t claim to “take care of women and children” when you only value women conditionally, and don’t see that your anti-birth-control, anti-abortion policies damage the lives of women and children who are already here and already need care and resources.

  • Catken1

    “Again, tons of choices out there.”

    Not in every vicinity, and not if you are not conscious and able to make a choice.

    “My church is the most generous and kind church and actually takes care of women and children.”

    Until a girl is raped, at which point the rapist’s child becomes more important than her well-being and sanity. Or until a pregnancy endangers her life, at which point she may be allowed to die in favor of allowing the baby to be born and endure a day or two of pain before it dies, rather than allowing her to have the decades of life an abortion might have bought her. Or until she decides she has as many children as she can properly care for or her health permits, at which point your church berates her for not having more, even though that would endanger the ones she already has and damage her own life and her own health in the process.

    Sorry, you can’t claim to “take care of women and children” when you only value women conditionally, and don’t see that your anti-birth-control, anti-abortion policies damage the lives of women and children who are already here and already need care and resources.

  • oblivionville

    Vasectomies and getting your tubes tied are also not allowed by the church.

    Married people should be able to have sex without having to worry about having kids. Are married seniors who can’t become pregnant banned from having sex by the church…?

  • oblivionville

    Vasectomies and getting your tubes tied are also not allowed by the church.

    Married people should be able to have sex without having to worry about having kids. Are married seniors who can’t become pregnant banned from having sex by the church…?

  • borispastrynak

    Too late Francis the damage has been done .. and dippy Americans and the media do not parse intricacies of moral debate.e very well . .most can’t find their way to the john without a map and flashlight and you think THIS is what they will remember .. think again. Your first statements is what they will remember . .not the explanation which is pretty lame considering. Francis .. you forgot this one .. love the sinner but not the sin .. except most people will not GET THE DISTINCTION … thanks for nothing. “”"”"Galatians 5:19-21: 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

  • borispastrynak

    Too late Francis the damage has been done .. and dippy Americans and the media do not parse intricacies of moral debate.e very well . .most can’t find their way to the john without a map and flashlight and you think THIS is what they will remember .. think again. Your first statements is what they will remember . .not the explanation which is pretty lame considering. Francis .. you forgot this one .. love the sinner but not the sin .. except most people will not GET THE DISTINCTION … thanks for nothing. “”"”"Galatians 5:19-21: 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

  • csintala79

    J., why don’t you be more civil in response and less flippant. You don’t persuade by being catty, assuming you want someone to agree with you.

  • csintala79

    J., why don’t you be more civil in response and less flippant. You don’t persuade by being catty, assuming you want someone to agree with you.

  • csintala79

    The view that all life is sacred has many qualifications and is subjective. The life of a soldier fighting the enemy is sacred, but we have worked long and hard on justifying that the death of our soldiers and their taking the lives of the enemy is not as sacred as waging war, for whatever reason; thou shall not kill is not an absolute prohibition. We all have opinions about what life being sacred means. An example, albeit archaic and probably honored in the breech, is that women and children should be first for protection; we have decided that their lives are more sacred that that of adult men. A conundrum that isn’t often encountered today is when in a lifeboat, should a strong, virile young male be tossed out in deference to that of a child, even though he is one of the only such males aboard that can reasonably man the oars. Today we accept ignoring the sacredness of life when we blast a structure hiding terrorists, but that is adjacent to apartment building, accepting the fact of collateral deaths. There is very little morality that is absolute and not subject to qualification. Most of the religious deny that ethics are situational, but there are far too many examples of difficult choices having to be made between competing goods that give evidence to the contrary.

  • csintala79

    The view that all life is sacred has many qualifications and is subjective. The life of a soldier fighting the enemy is sacred, but we have worked long and hard on justifying that the death of our soldiers and their taking the lives of the enemy is not as sacred as waging war, for whatever reason; thou shall not kill is not an absolute prohibition. We all have opinions about what life being sacred means. An example, albeit archaic and probably honored in the breech, is that women and children should be first for protection; we have decided that their lives are more sacred that that of adult men. A conundrum that isn’t often encountered today is when in a lifeboat, should a strong, virile young male be tossed out in deference to that of a child, even though he is one of the only such males aboard that can reasonably man the oars. Today we accept ignoring the sacredness of life when we blast a structure hiding terrorists, but that is adjacent to apartment building, accepting the fact of collateral deaths. There is very little morality that is absolute and not subject to qualification. Most of the religious deny that ethics are situational, but there are far too many examples of difficult choices having to be made between competing goods that give evidence to the contrary.

  • csintala79

    The view that the survival of a fetus takes precedence over the mother is nothing more than an opinion. Claiming it is God’s law only holds in an argument that accepts divine inspiration of the Bible and Church tradition as premises. The argument is moot and empty if one does not accept these premises.

  • csintala79

    The view that the survival of a fetus takes precedence over the mother is nothing more than an opinion. Claiming it is God’s law only holds in an argument that accepts divine inspiration of the Bible and Church tradition as premises. The argument is moot and empty if one does not accept these premises.

  • J. Davis

    Hardly. The justification for preserving the life of the fetus over that of the Mother lies in the realization that the Mother has already had something of a life, whereas, the fetus has yet to be born.

    When the Titanic was sinking, the old men decided to sacrifice themselves and remain on the sinking ship so that the younger people (mostly women and children) could go on living.

    This is an age-old consideration in our race.

  • J. Davis

    Hardly. The justification for preserving the life of the fetus over that of the Mother lies in the realization that the Mother has already had something of a life, whereas, the fetus has yet to be born.

    When the Titanic was sinking, the old men decided to sacrifice themselves and remain on the sinking ship so that the younger people (mostly women and children) could go on living.

    This is an age-old consideration in our race.

  • J. Davis

    I can’t help it. The nuns tried to beat it out of me when I was little, but, it didn’t do any good.

    Life imitates art, and oblivionville’s comment is straight out of the film “Idiocracy.” I’ll bet he got a public school education with a banana and an innertube . . . .

    (To quote Pope Francis: “I am such a sinner. I don’t know why Jesus loves me.”)

  • J. Davis

    I can’t help it. The nuns tried to beat it out of me when I was little, but, it didn’t do any good.

    Life imitates art, and oblivionville’s comment is straight out of the film “Idiocracy.” I’ll bet he got a public school education with a banana and an innertube . . . .

    (To quote Pope Francis: “I am such a sinner. I don’t know why Jesus loves me.”)

  • persiflage

    ‘I can’t help it. The nuns tried to beat it out of me when I was little, but, it didn’t do any good.’

    You may have enjoyed those thrashings more than anyone knew…….. the child makes the man.

  • persiflage

    ‘I can’t help it. The nuns tried to beat it out of me when I was little, but, it didn’t do any good.’

    You may have enjoyed those thrashings more than anyone knew…….. the child makes the man.

  • J. Davis

    Yet another remark straight out of the film “Idiocracy.”

  • J. Davis

    Yet another remark straight out of the film “Idiocracy.”

  • Catken1

    So do you want to actually offer some evidence as to why it’s wrong for a married couple not to want to have more children they can care for, J. Davis, or is unsubstantiated ad hominem insult all you’ve got?

  • Catken1

    So do you want to actually offer some evidence as to why it’s wrong for a married couple not to want to have more children they can care for, J. Davis, or is unsubstantiated ad hominem insult all you’ve got?

  • kewake

    How about take some ownership and responsibility and actually read the ENTIRE interview on your own. Instead of relying on complete biased columnists and commentators to tell you what they think he said. He never made any indication that he wanted to change the doctrine of the church.

  • kewake

    How about take some ownership and responsibility and actually read the ENTIRE interview on your own. Instead of relying on complete biased columnists and commentators to tell you what they think he said. He never made any indication that he wanted to change the doctrine of the church.

  • Catken1

    What inalienable right do either you or I have to use anyone else’s body or body parts, including our mothers’, without that person’s continuing consent, which may be withdrawn at any point in the procedure?
    Why are you and I less human than an undifferentiated blastula with neither brain cells nor nerve endings, in the eyes of the Church, and why is a pregnant woman less human than either of us, without either the right to use another person’s body without their consent or the right to prevent her own body from being so used?

  • Catken1

    What inalienable right do either you or I have to use anyone else’s body or body parts, including our mothers’, without that person’s continuing consent, which may be withdrawn at any point in the procedure?
    Why are you and I less human than an undifferentiated blastula with neither brain cells nor nerve endings, in the eyes of the Church, and why is a pregnant woman less human than either of us, without either the right to use another person’s body without their consent or the right to prevent her own body from being so used?

  • Catken1

    So if a two-year-old needs the use of your blood, your bone marrow, or your organs, government should force you to donate whether you will or not, whatever the consequences to you, even if it causes you permanent mutilation or death, because you’ve lived longer already?

    Choosing to sacrifice one’s life for another, or to give of one’s body to another, is noble. Government forcing one group to be sacrificed, or their bodies donated, for the good of another group they deem more worthwhile or virtuous – well, that leads down seriously dangerous paths.

  • Catken1

    So if a two-year-old needs the use of your blood, your bone marrow, or your organs, government should force you to donate whether you will or not, whatever the consequences to you, even if it causes you permanent mutilation or death, because you’ve lived longer already?

    Choosing to sacrifice one’s life for another, or to give of one’s body to another, is noble. Government forcing one group to be sacrificed, or their bodies donated, for the good of another group they deem more worthwhile or virtuous – well, that leads down seriously dangerous paths.

  • kewake

    If my 2 year old needed something from me to save them, that may mean the end of me? My 2 year old would have it. That is what love is.

  • kewake

    If my 2 year old needed something from me to save them, that may mean the end of me? My 2 year old would have it. That is what love is.

  • kewake

    What you are completely ignoring Catken, is that many Catholic families actually choose things that may not fit the Catholic doctrine every day. But they can ask for forgiveness, mercy and grace. Because they are not afraid to admit that they want and or need that. You, telling them that it is wrong to have such beliefs is bigoted and insulting.

  • kewake

    What you are completely ignoring Catken, is that many Catholic families actually choose things that may not fit the Catholic doctrine every day. But they can ask for forgiveness, mercy and grace. Because they are not afraid to admit that they want and or need that. You, telling them that it is wrong to have such beliefs is bigoted and insulting.

  • kewake

    no government is forcing anyone to sacrifice their bodies so that others can live. Most women do just fine through pregnancies. If you do not want to have children, you have like a “gazillion” choices NOT to become pregnant. Stop blaming it on the churches and government and start looking at yourself.

  • kewake

    no government is forcing anyone to sacrifice their bodies so that others can live. Most women do just fine through pregnancies. If you do not want to have children, you have like a “gazillion” choices NOT to become pregnant. Stop blaming it on the churches and government and start looking at yourself.

  • kewake

    What does the church teach Catken? Please. Enlighten me?

  • kewake

    What does the church teach Catken? Please. Enlighten me?

  • PhillyJimi1

    So is heaven filled with the souls of all the naturally aborted? If everything happens to god’s plan, then all of these abortions are an act of god. Or does a 5 week old fetus have freewill? No matter how you slice it, god is the biggest abortionist ever.

    If it is okay to god to seemingly to abort children at will why is it so wrong for a doctor and a woman to do the same thing? Seems like a double standard to me. You believe your god hates doctor induced abortions but it is your god who is the biggest abortion provider in human history. Religion and simple straight forward logic just don’t mix well.

    I can’t wait for the twisted logical excuses as to why it is okay for god to abort a child. Maybe god answered the prayers of the mother who didn’t want the child? Maybe the mother ate a hamburger on Friday in Lent when she was 5 years old and god is still mad and thus is punishing her?

  • PhillyJimi1

    So is heaven filled with the souls of all the naturally aborted? If everything happens to god’s plan, then all of these abortions are an act of god. Or does a 5 week old fetus have freewill? No matter how you slice it, god is the biggest abortionist ever.

    If it is okay to god to seemingly to abort children at will why is it so wrong for a doctor and a woman to do the same thing? Seems like a double standard to me. You believe your god hates doctor induced abortions but it is your god who is the biggest abortion provider in human history. Religion and simple straight forward logic just don’t mix well.

    I can’t wait for the twisted logical excuses as to why it is okay for god to abort a child. Maybe god answered the prayers of the mother who didn’t want the child? Maybe the mother ate a hamburger on Friday in Lent when she was 5 years old and god is still mad and thus is punishing her?

  • Catken1

    “You, telling them that it is wrong to have such beliefs is bigoted and insulting.”

    I see. So they can tell me that thinking I’m a human being who owns my own body makes me a murderer, and that my gay and lesbian friends’ happy, healthy marriages are “intrinsically disordered” when I can clearly see they’re no such thing, but my criticizing such beliefs (while not in the least arguing for denying them the right to hold such beliefs, or to live by them in their own lives) is “bigoted and insulting?” Freedom of speech goes both ways – you are free to advocate for your beliefs, and I am free to point out where I find such beliefs to be wrong, immoral, and inhumane.
    Besides which, the Church is not content to rely on the value and persuasiveness of their beliefs, and to rely on reason and persuasion to spread them – they seek to push for civil laws that treat pregnant women as incubators rather than people, that deny women any chance to avoid pregnancy other than the rhythm method (which does not work effectively for all women) or lifelong celibacy, and that treat gay couples as second-class citizens solely because their choice of marriage partner did not conform to Catholic law. While the Catholic Church lobbies to use government force to require us all to abide by Catholic dogma, they will get pushback from those of us who do not want to be Catholics and do not find Catholic dogma to be moral and just in every case.

  • Catken1

    “You, telling them that it is wrong to have such beliefs is bigoted and insulting.”

    I see. So they can tell me that thinking I’m a human being who owns my own body makes me a murderer, and that my gay and lesbian friends’ happy, healthy marriages are “intrinsically disordered” when I can clearly see they’re no such thing, but my criticizing such beliefs (while not in the least arguing for denying them the right to hold such beliefs, or to live by them in their own lives) is “bigoted and insulting?” Freedom of speech goes both ways – you are free to advocate for your beliefs, and I am free to point out where I find such beliefs to be wrong, immoral, and inhumane.
    Besides which, the Church is not content to rely on the value and persuasiveness of their beliefs, and to rely on reason and persuasion to spread them – they seek to push for civil laws that treat pregnant women as incubators rather than people, that deny women any chance to avoid pregnancy other than the rhythm method (which does not work effectively for all women) or lifelong celibacy, and that treat gay couples as second-class citizens solely because their choice of marriage partner did not conform to Catholic law. While the Catholic Church lobbies to use government force to require us all to abide by Catholic dogma, they will get pushback from those of us who do not want to be Catholics and do not find Catholic dogma to be moral and just in every case.

  • Catken1

    Does the church give a pregnant woman the right to prevent her body from being used by her fetus if she so desires it, or if circumstances demand, even if she was made pregnant by forcible rape rather than any choice, or if her chosen pregnancy has gone horribly wrong?
    Is it not Catholic doctrine that a twelve-year-old girl whose stepfather rapes her and makes her pregnant is now required to give over her body for nine months to her rapist’s baby, as though her feelings had no importance next to the child’s sacred right to live inside her and use her organs for its sustenance?

  • Catken1

    Does the church give a pregnant woman the right to prevent her body from being used by her fetus if she so desires it, or if circumstances demand, even if she was made pregnant by forcible rape rather than any choice, or if her chosen pregnancy has gone horribly wrong?
    Is it not Catholic doctrine that a twelve-year-old girl whose stepfather rapes her and makes her pregnant is now required to give over her body for nine months to her rapist’s baby, as though her feelings had no importance next to the child’s sacred right to live inside her and use her organs for its sustenance?

  • kewake

    There are beliefs and doctrines. And yes, the Catholic church teaches that abortion is evil and the end to innocent life. But with the church, we also have free will. What the Church teaches and what people choose to do are completely different things. So it is not the Church imposing any laws or making it hard for any woman to get what she needs. You do not have to subscribe to the teachings of the church. She does not take away any of your rights. But if you want her, She is there for you. For forgiveness, mercy and grace. We are all sinners. But that is not the Catholic churches fault. She is not to blame. People want to be able to have an excuse and to point fingers. The Church will take the finger pointing and still love you.

  • kewake

    There are beliefs and doctrines. And yes, the Catholic church teaches that abortion is evil and the end to innocent life. But with the church, we also have free will. What the Church teaches and what people choose to do are completely different things. So it is not the Church imposing any laws or making it hard for any woman to get what she needs. You do not have to subscribe to the teachings of the church. She does not take away any of your rights. But if you want her, She is there for you. For forgiveness, mercy and grace. We are all sinners. But that is not the Catholic churches fault. She is not to blame. People want to be able to have an excuse and to point fingers. The Church will take the finger pointing and still love you.

  • Catken1

    “So it is not the Church imposing any laws or making it hard for any woman to get what she needs.”

    Have you missed the campaigns led by the Church designed to pass civil laws that make abortions illegal, or at least very, very hard to get for all women, not just Catholics?

    I have no earthly objection to you living by Catholic law, but I do object to having it pushed on me through civil law.

  • Catken1

    “So it is not the Church imposing any laws or making it hard for any woman to get what she needs.”

    Have you missed the campaigns led by the Church designed to pass civil laws that make abortions illegal, or at least very, very hard to get for all women, not just Catholics?

    I have no earthly objection to you living by Catholic law, but I do object to having it pushed on me through civil law.

  • cricket44

    “While the Catholic Church lobbies to use government force to require us all to abide by Catholic dogma, they will get pushback from those of us who do not want to be Catholics and do not find Catholic dogma to be moral and just in every case.”

    Yup.

  • cricket44

    “While the Catholic Church lobbies to use government force to require us all to abide by Catholic dogma, they will get pushback from those of us who do not want to be Catholics and do not find Catholic dogma to be moral and just in every case.”

    Yup.

  • Jade2016

    “If it is okay to god to seemingly to abort children at will why is it so wrong for a doctor and a woman to do the same thing?”

    Here is a reflection of your “reasoning” (or lack thereof): If it is okay to nature to seemingly kill people through earthquakes, floods, volcanic eruptions, etc., at will, why is it so wrong for someone to kill you?

  • Jade2016

    “If it is okay to god to seemingly to abort children at will why is it so wrong for a doctor and a woman to do the same thing?”

    Here is a reflection of your “reasoning” (or lack thereof): If it is okay to nature to seemingly kill people through earthquakes, floods, volcanic eruptions, etc., at will, why is it so wrong for someone to kill you?

  • cricket44

    People can start their own volcanic eruptions now? Fascinating.

  • cricket44

    People can start their own volcanic eruptions now? Fascinating.

  • cricket44

    Awww, the typical “Christian” response. In which testament is the Book of Malice and Hatred, Jade?

  • cricket44

    Awww, the typical “Christian” response. In which testament is the Book of Malice and Hatred, Jade?

  • J. Davis

    What are you talking about, Cwicket?

  • J. Davis

    What are you talking about, Cwicket?

  • kewake

    I will try one more time. It is not the Church campaigning. It is people, humans. Citizens working for the government that were voted in by other citizens. You have your ideas and beliefs. So do others. People choose what to believe in. The church does not make anyone believe what they believe. We all fight for what we believe in. It all translates in to society. I dont think that Plan B should be sold OTC. But you have that. Who made that legal? That was not a church. It was people, with rights, voting. And so if more people standing up for innocent human life translates in to more restrictions on abortion, than that is what it will be. Usually, the more something is fought for, it is more likely to happen. Those lives deserve to be protected.

  • kewake

    I will try one more time. It is not the Church campaigning. It is people, humans. Citizens working for the government that were voted in by other citizens. You have your ideas and beliefs. So do others. People choose what to believe in. The church does not make anyone believe what they believe. We all fight for what we believe in. It all translates in to society. I dont think that Plan B should be sold OTC. But you have that. Who made that legal? That was not a church. It was people, with rights, voting. And so if more people standing up for innocent human life translates in to more restrictions on abortion, than that is what it will be. Usually, the more something is fought for, it is more likely to happen. Those lives deserve to be protected.

  • cricket44

    By speaking out against contraception, folks actively contribute to abortion. Make the connection.

  • cricket44

    By speaking out against contraception, folks actively contribute to abortion. Make the connection.

  • Truth & Justice

    Duh!

  • Truth & Justice

    Duh!

  • Truth & Justice

    Duh!

  • nkri401

    The stupidity is the notion that if abortion was illegal, then no one would do it.

    Why do you think it was legalized in the first place?

  • nkri401

    The stupidity is the notion that if abortion was illegal, then no one would do it.

    Why do you think it was legalized in the first place?

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