I am the rape exception

AP Candidates for Indiana’s U.S. Senate seat Democrat Joe Donnelly, left, Libertarian Andrew Horning, center, and Republican Richard Mourdock participate … Continued

AP

Candidates for Indiana’s U.S. Senate seat Democrat Joe Donnelly, left, Libertarian Andrew Horning, center, and Republican Richard Mourdock participate in a debate in New Albany, Ind., on Oct. 23, 2012.

I grew up knowing that I was adopted and my parents were always open and positive in the way they presented it. They made me feel good about being adopted.

I had a very special relationship with my adopted father, George. He was a caring, thoughtful man that spent time with me, taught me things, encouraged me, and was always there when I needed him. The bond I shared with my dad was based on love, not biology.

In my mid-twenties, I wanted to learn more about my history because I was about to be married and might soon be having children of my own. I also had a growing interest in understanding myself, my origin. I started this journey by calling my dad. Through our discussions, I learned that my adoption was unusually open for the times.

In 1961, my father was stationed at Loring Air Force Base near Caribou, Maine. When he and my mother decided to adopt, they visited a priest on base that informed them about a young pregnant lady that had recently visited with him that would be giving up her child for adoption. After meeting, my parents and my biological mother learned that they were actually living in the same complex of townhouses on base. My biological mother, accompanied by her mother, had come from a small town in western Illinois to stay with her brother who was also stationed at Loring.

Due to the fact that they were literally right around the corner from one another, my biological mother spent time with my parents. In fact, I would later learn that my dad took my biological mother to the hospital the night I was born. He enjoyed telling the story about going to check on the car after my birth to find his red Rambler station wagon right where he left it, in front of the hospital, still running, with the doors wide open. Due to the time my birth mother spent with my parents, my Dad was able to provide information that would later help me find her.

I found my biological mother in the early 1990s. She still lived in western Illinois near St. Louis and was married with two children. Consistent with other adult adoptees that search for their biological parents, I did not want to make her feel uncomfortable or disrupt her life; I simply wanted to understand my life. I used intermediaries to make initial contact before contacting her directly. After our initial phone call, I went to see her the following weekend. The meeting was very emotional for all of the obvious reasons. After plenty of crying and looking over one another to take an inventory of our biological similarities, we got to the discussion of my origin.

When talking to couples that are considering adoption, I always make the point that there’s something imperfect about an adopted child’s origin that makes them available for adoption. These imperfections may include pregnancy out of wedlock, financial hardship, governmental restrictions (as in China) or other cultural forces. In my case, my biological mother said she became pregnant with me as a result of a date rape.

Issues of rape and incest are emotionally charged. As a father of three with two daughters, I feel these emotions. But as an adult that lives a positive productive life, it is difficult for me to consider myself a “choice” as the Democratic party would argue or the “rape exception” as some in the Republican party would suggest.

Both parties have politicized abortion. Many strong anti-abortion Republicans have bowed to pressure to moderate their position on abortion now that we are past the primaries and heading towards the general election. The result is the rape, incest, and life-of-the-mother exception to make the anti-abortion position more palatable for centrist voters. While I understand the political move, the abandonment of principle is disappointing.

I find myself particularly confused by the Democratic position on this issue. Generally, my Democratic friends want to help others and provide a voice for the voiceless. They are good people with good hearts. The obvious irony is that unborn children are the most helpless, voiceless, and innocent of all human beings. Yet in Democratic politics, the unborn child rarely merits an honorable mention in the abortion debate. The political cynic in me thinks that this is because unborn children cannot vote and thus don’t have the political value of an adult woman that believes her right to choose trumps my right to live.

But most troubling to me in the abortion debate is the absence of a real discussion about adoption as an alternative. While carrying a child to term is certainly a significant commitment, it is a nine-month commitment, not a life-time commitment if the child is placed for adoption. My biological mother (who recently passed away) went back to western Illinois after giving birth to me, attended cosmetology school, married a good man, and had two more beautiful children. She went on to have a good life after giving me life. But just as important is the fact that by giving me life, she gave my father a son, and gave my children a dad. Speaking for my family, I think we’re all pretty happy about that.

The recent controversy over abortion involving U.S. Senate candidates Richard Mourdock and Joe Donnelly of Indiana is both telling and sad. In their Oct. 23 debate, Mourdock made statements about his belief in the sanctity of life, even in cases of rape. His words were twisted and shamefully mischaracterized by Donnelly, the DNC, and the Obama campaign to suggest that Mourdock (and by extension, Republicans) were somehow pro-rape and a threat to women’s health care.

Having viewed Mourdock’s debate statements and subsequent comments several times, it is obvious that he is a sincere, religious man that was standing by his beliefs – despite how politically inconvenient they may be. He is not pro-rape or a threat to women’s health care and was respectful of Democrats and Republicans that have differing beliefs in his remarks. Mourdock believes that life begins with conception and that abortion should only be an option in cases involving a threat to the life of the mother. Mourdock stated that “Life is a gift from God” and that “Even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen.”

Looking at my life, my children, and the people we all touch, I believe that I am something that God intended to happen, just as Mourdock said. Even if the manner in which I was conceived was imperfect and not intended by God, my life is most certainly a gift from God. Mr. Mourdock, I thank you for your courage and conviction in being a voice for the voiceless unborn children of rape.

Glenn W. Perdue is managing member of Kraft Analytics, LLC, an affiliate of KraftCPAs in Nashville.

  • mamoo11

    I’m glad you have a happy life. Your biological mother made a choice that she would rather carry you to term than have an abortion. I respect that choice. At the same time, no one should be forced to carry a fetus to term. This is especially true for a victim of rape. Their body, their choice.

  • PhillyJimi1

    When you examine anything it is always useful to compare it to something otherwise you’re just out on an island. Let’s cut rape and god out of this as much as possible.

    Let’s compare doctor induced abortions to natural abortions. All of the arguments for person hood apply to both types of abortions. Even the pain test. If a doctor performs an abortion and it is murder based on these subjective criteria then a “natural abortion” also has the grounds for the same type of arguments. Was the baby not a person the moment before being aborted naturally? Of course not if you’re honest with your arguments. The person hood is exactly the same.

    If you claim that the beating heart of the baby has stopped and it is murder in one case then why isn’t it in the other case? Doesn’t the baby have a soul in both cases? Doesn’t the baby have the same rights in both cases? Where is the justice for the same exact babies in both cases?

    I say the only REAL difference is that is it just the CHOICE of the mother as to if she wants to have a baby or not. That is the only difference. A naturally aborted baby the mother choose to have the baby. Where with a doctor induced abortion the mother choose not to have the baby. All arguments about person hood and such are just smoke and mirror because they apply equally in both cases.

    If you want to inject some sky daddy into the conservation then we have to part ways because I don’t accept the silly claims of a 2000 year old book about a zombie god that faked his death to atone for the fruit eating crimes of a rib woman who chatted with snakes.

    IMHO – I don’t like abortions and I feel you should have one within the first 3 months. I am pro choice but within very strict and reasonable limits. I do understand that once the egg and sperm connect a sequence of events do take place and eventually there is a point of no return and a person exists. It has nothing to do with a creepy 2000 year old zombie and his genocidal father.

  • tony55398

    Life, even life from rape is and remains a life from God, a gift, if not to the mother it is to the child. All life springs from God and is Loved by God and no one has a right to destroy this life.

  • WmarkW

    I’m very glad you and your biological mother are happy with the choice she made.

    But in the last couple of paragraphs, you seem to turn your story into a variation of “You just murdered Beethoven.” That argument is one that depends on the existence of a Supreme Being who lives in the present and future simultaneously, and the presumption to know It’s opinions is not a prerogative of the state.

  • mikestech

    It’s amazing to me the insensititity people can still have even after reading something like this. The whole “well, that’s nice, but I still think your life should have been expendable” crowd is absolutely sickening. Here is an example of a man who, if liberals had their way, would have been murdered before birth, and they’re perfectly fine with saying it. Disgusting, heartless and absolutely blind adherance to liberal doctrine. Mr. Perdue, thank you for sharing your story, and may it change even the hardest of hearts. We can only pray it will.

  • leibowde84

    It’s amazing to me the intense hatred pro-lifers can have for people who disagree with them about a controversial issue. To simplify the problem of abortion in cases of rape down to simply the sacredness of life is idiotic and childish. The problem exists because there are two competing interests. I understand that you can disagree with my (and many others’) conclusion, but to literally throw insults at people you don’t even know is sickening.

    People like you pick and chose with the bible as much as those you mock do. You cling to this notion that life is sacred and nothing is ever going to be as important as that notion, but disregard Jesus’ emphasis on non-judgment. Jesus stopped his disciple from harming the Roman Soldier who was arresting the “son of god.” He uttered the words, “judge, lest ye be judged.” And, he preached forgiveness, understanding, and nonviolence. He embraced sinners of every kind, as long as they were willing to become good people.

    So, where do you get off insulting people who merely disagree with you. You might think of the morning after pill as murder, but most would disagree with you. If you think that is because you and a small minority have figured things out better than the rest of the world, you are lost in ignorance and your own self pride. Controversial issues are controversial because they are tough, not because most people are stupid or not “with it.”

    Don’t judge, discuss. That way some people might respect your point of view. But, the language above makes it hard for anyone to actually pay you any mind. You come off like a bigot who hates anyone who disagrees with you or the teachings of a corrupt church.

  • leibowde84

    But a woman has the right to refuse her body to anyone or anything. That is a right arguably granted by the constitution, federal law, and the common law. If we don’t have the right to use our own bodies as we wish, we have no freedom. Abortion is a byproduct of the choice to refuse a woman’s body to another living thing. That is sad and most certainly a negative, but it one negative essential to the existence of so many positives. For freedom to exist, there will always be downsides, but it is the most beautiful thing in the world.

    And, God gave us free-will and the ability to create life on our own, correct? He might have given us the gift of the possibility of creating life, but pregnancies from rape are 100% man-made, and church teaching to the contrary is logically counterintuitive when free-will is recognized.

  • leibowde84

    Exactly.

  • Stretch

    Congrats on your productive life. I guess you’re super glad your mom was raped, amirite? Because if she was never raped, you wouldn’t be here and nobody thinks your life should have been prevented by a silly little think like consent.

    And why should your claim on your mother’s body end at your birth? That’s a little arbitrary. If your kidneys fail, shouldn’t you be allowed to track her down, slice her open and take one of hers? After all you’ll die without it and she owes you a chance at life. I’m having all of my mother’s organs put on ice when she dies, in case I need them in the future.

    Look, nobody owes you the use of their body. EVER. Not to make you happy, not to keep you alive, not to give you a chance at a super awesome amazing productive life. Your biological father obviously felt he was entitled to your mother’s body. It sounds like you do as well.

  • SursumCorda

    “Don’t judge, discuss”

    leibowde84 – i sure hope this doesn’t insult you..

    BUT

    i’d like to know why people who are most vocal about animal cruelty cases:

    “Animal abusers are cowards,” says PETA Director Martin Mersereau. “They take their issues out on the most defenseless beings available to them.”

    are often equally adamant about abortion on demand and no one believes the “clump of cells” lie about what a woman aborts. pictures are widely available online and the visably human fetus is mutilated before it is extracted from its mother’s womb.

    why the dichotomy ??

  • Kathie Wilson

    While I’m certain from the tone of this article that the author is glad to be alive, and is grateful to his ‘biological’ mother for givng birth to him. neither he nor his mother is the arbitor of the feelings of other women in her situation. It is lovely for him that he was placed with people who were glad to be his parents – but to assume that every child born to rape victims will have this outcome,or that every woman who is raped should be forced to gestate if she conceives, in service to his experience, is foolish. The point of view which the author advances here, takes his mother’s views into consideration only to the extent that they impact HIM, and gives no thought, apparently, to any doubts or concerns she might have had about her decision. Including the decision to relinquish him in the first place, which undoubtedly is one of the most difficult and traumatic things a woman can do. Again, good for him, and good for his mother – but theirs is an individual situation, and must be seen as such, rather than being seen by the law as the only course available to the pregnant victims of rape.

  • Secular1

    This article is actually a bit disengenous, considering teh fact that teh pregnancy took place back in 1961. At that time all abortion was illegal. If the author’s mother had chosen to abort, it would have been at great personal risk to her own life, leave alone with the law. So the hapless woman had no choice. Now for this 51 year old man to foist as if it was a choice is absurd. I wish he had not thrust hinslf into this debate so personally to garner empathies. I care less for people like him. He is just about crass as Romney, who according to what is know on of his position he was first against choice then he was for it and then he was for it and now he is againstit.

    Willard an authority figure with in his believers club, tried to dissuade a young woman whose life was threatened to carry the pregnancy to term. He supposedly quite harsh with her in trying to dissuade her. Then in 1994 he came up with a story of a belagured female relative loosing her life due to the lack choice so he said he was for choice. Which remained his position even threu his governorship and now is back again against choice. Of course this time he does not have another family anecdote for changing his mind. that makes you wonder if he even has a mind.

  • tony55398

    For those who believe in God, they are supposed to mirror God’s Love to each and every man woman and child including the unborn, given life by whatever means. Yes you have the power to abort, but that doesn’t make it a right that God wills for His child, after all that unborn child was given life by Him and that child has the same right as any other child He has created. No one has the right to kill and killing it is. If it hurts your feelings I’m sorry, but a life is still a life, and a life is worth far more than a persons feelings. If you don’t believe in God and you want to destroy the life in you, nothing I say could make a difference.

  • Secular1

    AAAAAGH!!!! this is a tiresome garbage god’s gadda%% gift to the poor rape victim. On what authority do you people claim that your dog gives a crap about anything you do or do to each other. A cursory reading of that vile filthy tome tells me that this character whom you call dog does not care less how squalid and miserable yor lives are. All that thing cares about it is it gets its pound of flesh and doesn’t matter to it if a gallon of blood is pilled in the process. Take the case of Jephtah’s daughter. This idiot warrior promises the monster, he would sactrifice anything that comes of teh house when he returns from the battle, if the monster helps him win. Out comes his pre-pubescent daughter to greet on his return. Of course his dog demands that the Jephtah sacrifice his daughter. When this monster you call dog, is willing to take the life of an innocent child because of her father’s stupidity, do you really think he gives a crap about an unborn zygote or cystoblast, you got to be kidding me. Take your nonsense of gift from dog crap shove where the sun don’t shine.

  • Skowronek

    “In 1961 my father was stationed at Loring Air Force Base near Caribou, Maine. When he and my mother decided to adopt, they visited a priest on base that informed them about a young pregnant lady that had recently visited with him that would be giving up her child for adoption.”

    Abortion was illegal in 1961.

    ” In my case, my biological mother said she became pregnant with me as a result of a date rape.”

    I’m going to hazard the guess that she didn’t have him charged with raping her, as it’s unlikely she would have been been able to get the police to take her seriously at that time.

    “Mademoiselle in November 1980: ‘He could be prosecuted if only the legal system would accept that ‘date rape’ is possible.’ “

  • Secular1

    MY point exactly below. On my second and third read of this article Perdue seems to be cynically using his story. He further goes on to say “Looking at my life, my children, and the people we all touch, I believe that I am something that God intended to happen, just as Mourdock said.” this is the good old what if that may have been the next Bethoven or Einstein. Well Mr. Perdue you are just one datum in that population have you gone and researched sufficiently large population of rape children to draw yor conslusion? Answer is most certainly resounding “NO”. But that is not stopping you from drawing conclusions and recommending policy suggestion. You are using your situation to shut the counter arguments. That is very cynical of you. You want us to take your word for it, that you are a rape child, from the murky past of early 1960s. how do you know for sure that it was indeed a case of rape and not a case of your bilogical mother’s parents forcing her to give you up for adoption to avoid the stigma of out of wedlock pregnancy. Rape was perhaps, just a cover story for who knows what really happened. Did you seek out and get your bilogical father’s side of the story? Did you ever ponder about this question, “Why din’t teh sky daddy bestow this wonderful gift to your actual parents who raised you, instead of leaving your life to the whims and fancies of that hapless woman (perhaps a child still) in such a traumatic time of her life”? If you di not ask these questions sir you are just a cynical man exploiting your own anecdote. Shame on you.

    What I find amazing is the contention from all the theocrats is it is a gift from their mythical sky daddy. What kind of monster or idiot is this sky daddy that challenges the victim with this kind of moral dilemma. Then of course this sky daddy will punish her with horrendous punishments, if she were to make the wrong choice – aborts the splendid gift from this monster. For all we know the rapist himself objective

  • tony55398

    I feel sorry for you.

  • tony55398

    God Loves you.

  • Secular1

    Tony i am not prticularly fond of gratutous apologies, compliments and condolences. This exercise of feeling sorry gratutously is an indication that you do not have anything menaingful to buttress your position, so you chose to obfuscate. Too bad, but this is not teh firsttime that ihave encountered this silly way of throwing in the towel and saying “eventhough I cannot muster any evidence to refute your position, iI will continue to be remain deluded”. That is what I call it Kurt Wise syndrome

  • Secular1

    Oh! really? How would I know that this mythical entity loves me.

  • park6708

    I also feel sorry for Secular1. He or she is just bursting with anger. And I suspect that if it wasn’t directed at one religious faith or another it would be directed at other groups or people instead.

  • park6708

    There’s one problem with your premise which hinges on when someone becomes a person. If you believe that life begins at conception, then your point that “nobody owes you the use of their body” also applies to the unborn child. And the mother is imposing her desires on the unborn child and taking away the unborn child’s life. Even if you take rape off the table, the only way to reconcile abortion with the unborn child’s equal right to the mother’s is to assume that the unborn child isn’t a person and has no rights.

    This is ultimately the point of the debate on abortion.

  • park6708

    Philly, a sincere question and also a sincere request tied to a comment.

    Question: what do you mean when you refer to “natural abortion?” I’d like to better understand your logic but I don’t know what you’re referring to.

    Comment and request: There are certainly some people who are very vocal about their faiths and can become derogatory to others who don’t share their beliefs, and I’m sure that this can be quite insulting to you. I do request that you refrain from being similarly derogatory to my faith. You can state that you don’t believe in Christianity. That’s fine. You start by asking to leave God out of this, but then you bring Him back in in a derogatory way. I’d love to have a respectful discussion with you and understand your points of view. I just ask that you keep it respectful as well.

  • park6708

    I also feel sorry for Secular1. He or she is just bursting with anger. And I suspect that if it wasn’t directed at one religious faith or another it would be directed at other groups or people instead.

  • Catken1

    ” If you believe that life begins at conception, then your point that “nobody owes you the use of their body” also applies to the unborn child. And the mother is imposing her desires on the unborn child and taking away the unborn child’s life. ”

    No more than the person refusing another person a kidney is “imposing their desires on the potential recipient and taking away their life.” It is the fetus using the mother’s body and body parts to sustain its life, not vice versa – it is dependent on her resources and contributions, not the other way around. Therefore, the choice must be hers.

    In fact, the only way to reconcile forcing a woman to carry an unwanted child to term is to assume that she isn’t a person and has not the same right all human people have, to decide who may or may not use her body, when and how.

  • Catken1

    Because the animal is not living inside a human being’s body and using her resources against her will?

    In the long run, we have all been there – we have all been inside our mothers, using her blood and her organs and her resources to sustain our lives. Personally, I’m GLAD that giving me life was her choice, not a forced duty – I show my gratitude towards her for making that choice in part by respecting that she is a free woman and the right to say yea or nay belonged to her, not to government.

    And it’s amazing the insensitivity (and ingratitude) that people who once gained life through someone else’s effort, resources, risk and pain can show to their mothers and to other women, telling them, “Yeah, you gave me a gift, but big deal, it was only your duty. When I was in you, taking your energy to sustain myself, living inside and off of your organs, you weren’t really a free person who could have said no to me but chose to give me life anyway – you were my property, and it was my RIGHT to take what I needed from you. Not a gift at all – my prerogative. So why should I be grateful?”

  • OldUncleTom

    What Mr Perdue leaves out of his very moving narrative is the fact that nothing in his story is impaired in any way by allowing victims of rape the CHOICE not to carry their pregnancy to term.

    His biological mother would continue to have that CHOICE, but her peers in victimhood would be able to choose alternatives, based on their individual beliefs and circumstances.

    I continue to believe that the most obnoxious aspects of the anti-choice perspective is the COERCION involved in the personal lives and decisions of other people.

  • OldUncleTom

    Tony, suggest you reference Deuteronomy 23:2 in your Bible, for a view of God’s opinion of illegitimate children, and their descendents for 10 generations.

    If you really believe that the Bible is inerrant, wouldn’t abortion be a kinder end?

  • ONE OF MANY, USA CITIZEN

    If your teen age daughter was raped, what would you do? Teen age daughters, if you where raped, what would you want your parents to do?

  • Secular1

    OUT you are barking at the wrong tree. They want to see that Deut 23:3 be fulfilled, An abortion would put a kabash to that whole thing.

  • Secular1

    Park6708, you wrote “I also feel sorry for Secular1. He or she is just bursting with anger. And I suspect that if it wasn’t directed at one religious faith or another it would be directed at other groups or people instead.” I am not sure what point you are making. My battle is against the ignorance that is all religion and deluded bigots like you.

  • Stretch

    Preach it Catken1! Cannah gettah Amen!

  • Jill Bryant

    There are women who would kill themselves rather than carry a rapist’s baby to term. This was a case of date rape – okay – now let’s try an insane sexual predator who not only raped and sodomized you but made you perform acts on him while he held a gun to her head . She not only immediately got the morning after pill, she was unable to have a man touch her for the next four years after a whole lot of therapy and some severe PTSD. Yes, she should have carried a baby to term. Tell me about it. EGADS!!! Are you out of your mind?

  • SursumCorda

    “Because the animal is not living inside a human being’s body and using her resources against her will..”

    Catken1 – you neglect the reality that the parasite inside the human being’s body is their flesh and blood. perhaps you have no knowledge of the mother/child bond – but it is (in almost all cases) extraordinary..

    why do many women who have had abortions still struggle deeply with their decisions for years after the fact ??

    AND

    why do buddhists have temples dedicated to “water children” the aborted/unborn children who cannot be forgotten ???

  • HoofHearted

    Which God? Mohamed, Jesus, God, Buddha Sidartha, Guiness, x-Box Playstation 2 ?

  • Catken1

    /”Catken1 – you neglect the reality that the parasite inside the human being’s body is their flesh and blood. perhaps you have no knowledge of the mother/child bond – but it is (in almost all cases) extraordinary.. ”

    Certainly it is. I am a mother myself, by CHOICE. I also know how much it costs to bring a child to birth, and I do not feel that I have the right to compel such costs from another woman, particularly if the child was forced on her by rape.

    Yes, the mother-child bond is in almost all cases extraordinary. That is not, in fact, helped by making the mother the child’s property, and turning her great gift of life into a government-enforced duty, or a punishment for not being celibate (or for being raped). Nor do you have the right to step in and demand the work and risks and sacrifice of pregnancy from someone else because you “just know” it’s the best decision for them, any more than I have the right to demand your kidney from you for someone else’s benefit, because I “just know” you’d never regret the gift.

    And being one’s own “flesh and blood” is irrelevant under the law. I cannot, now, claim so little as a pint of my mother’s blood without her consent, and yet she is still my mother.

    Nor are you entitled to take away someone else’s choices because another person made the same choice and regretted it later. There are plenty of women who deeply regret being forced to carry children to term, too, and who still bear the scars (and some who are no longer around to regret it, because they died of it). And many women do not regret their abortions – in some cases, because it spared their existing chlldren’s badly-needed mother, in some cases, because it made it possible for her to have children later when she was better able to care for them, in some cases because carrying the child to term would have been too painful and traumatic to bear.

  • nkri401

    So because you were born of rape, you want to FORCE under ciriminal statue, my daughter to bear the rapist’s child and make me a grand parent of a rapist’s child?

    Is this what you call freedom of religion?

  • Skowronek

    Thor? Chaos? An? The Rainbow Serpent (Australian Aborigines have the oldest continuously practiced religion – estimated to be 65,000 years old by some. Few argue with 50,000 years old)?

  • SursumCorda

    “Nor do you have the right to step in and demand the work and risks and sacrifice of pregnancy from someone else because you “just know” ..”

    Thanks for your reply. You seem very invested in this argument and I’m sure someone has said they “just know” but it *wasn’t* me : )

    I’m glad we agree that the mother/child bond is extraordinary.. It must be to bring forth a living capable adult.. In their very complex bond – I believe the child’s role is complete dependence and the mother’s role is selfless love and protection.. It has to be that way or we would not have the next generation..

    Your argument centers on the mother’s right to deny her body as a sanctuary to her child. I say – when this happens (abortion) there is no child – so there is no mother.. Many woman deeply regret their decision. There is a true loss – not only of a child they will never hold – but of their desire and instinct to mother.. There will always be loveless mothers – but they are few and an exception . .

  • SursumCorda

    Catken1 has said –

    “Nor do you have the right to step in and demand the work and risks and sacrifice of pregnancy from someone else because you “just know” ..”

    Thanks for your reply. You seem very invested in this argument and I’m sure someone has said they “just know” to you but it *wasn’t* me

    : )

    I’m glad we agree that the mother/child bond is extraordinary.. It must be to bring forth a living capable adult.. In their very complex bond – I believe the child’s role is complete dependence and the mother’s role is selfless love and protection.. It has to be that way or we would not have the next generation..

    Your argument centers on the mother’s right to deny her body as a sanctuary to her child. I say – when this happens (abortion) there is no child – so there is no mother.. Many woman deeply regret their decision. There is a true loss – not only of a child they will never hold – but of their desire and instinct to mother.. There will always be loveless mothers – but they are few and an exception . .

  • Catken1

    “You seem very invested in this argument ”

    Well, my status as a human person – and my mother’s, sister’s, and female friends’ status as human people – does matter to me. I don’t want government telling me when and how my body will no longer belong to me.

    ” In their very complex bond – I believe the child’s role is complete dependence and the mother’s role is selfless love and protection..”

    Trouble is, you cannot enforce that bond or that role on anyone if it isn’t already there, certainly not by mere law. There are plenty of mothers willing to give of themselves to produce offspring to ensure the next generation – we need not compel anyone who doesn’t want to to do so.

    “Many woman deeply regret their decision.”

    Many don’t. Many also regret their decision – or their being forced – to carry a child to term, especially a child of rape.

    ” There is a true loss – not only of a child they will never hold – but of their desire and instinct to mother..”

    You act as though every woman has a “desire and instinct to mother”, and I can tell you from some of the women I know that it is not so. Some women will never be good mothers, and it should not be asked of them – they have other ways to contribute to the world.

    Besides which, sometimes an abortion at one point can save a woman’s chance to be a mother at a better time and place, too.
    It’s a complex problem, and the choice isn’t always as simple as you make it – but the choice does need to belong to the person putting in the resources, the effort, and the investment needed to make a child.

  • DanaB1

    Here is an example of a man who, if liberals had their way, would have been murdered before birth
    ____________________________

    Not at all. If I had my way, his mother wouldn’t have been raped at all. Failing that, his mother would have had the right to choose whether to give birth to him or not. I actually would hope that she would still have made the choice that she did, since it seems to have worked out well for her, and obviously, having been born and thus able to have an opinion on the subject, he is glad that he was. But we don’t know how difficult it was for her having to bear him after the trauma of being raped, and then having to give him up. And her story certainly doesn’t mean that what she did would be the best choice for any young woman in that situation, or create justification for taking the choice away from all women in that situation. Assuming that we are never going to eliminate rape altogether, it would make me very happy for every woman who finds herself pregnant after being raped to have the emotional strength and selflessness to allow that child the chance at life, and for every such child to be so fortunate as to have such a happy outcome, but my wishful thinking doesn’t make it so or justify the government making that choice for them.

  • cricket44

    Many women actually feel relief when they abort. You don’t get to decide how others feel.

  • cricket44

    Your biological mother *chose* to have you. Shame you would treat your daughters as less than full people by denying them the right to the same choice.

  • SursumCorda

    cricket44 is absolutely right – i don’t get to decide how other people feel.

    they tell me. i work with the terminally ill as a counselor..

    so from my own experience – i can say with certainty that for *most* women – regret over an abortion runs very deep and is lifelong..

    i can also say no woman on her deathbed has said to me – i’m so relieved i had an abortion . .

  • Secular1

    SursumCorda, you deathbed is rather lame and is overused. No body has said that there aren’t few or even some who did not regret their decision to abort. Heck, i regret wearing pink underwear some 15 years, 2 months, 3 weeks and 5 days ago. Do you think someone should take up the cause to ensure that no body wears pink underwear? This is silly, debate about abortion that you guys undertake. What is your sides goal, minimize abortions or just feel self righteous and just ban abortions, altogether? Banning abortions, as we know with war on drugs and prohibitions only shoves it underground with terrible consequences to all. Where as making birth control and also non-intrusive repeat/serial aborters is to reduce and or minimize abortions. Trying to write secular laws based on fairy tales is absolute nonsense.

  • SursumCorda

    “SursumCorda, you deathbed is rather lame and is overused.”

    everyone is unique – no one’s death is “rather lame” ..

    donne informed us years ago but i guess you missed it

    : )

    ALSO

    so sorry i touch a nerve concerning your “pink panties” incident..

    you know Secular1 – there is always time to iron out those little quirks of the past if they trouble you . .

    : )

    AND you say:

    “Trying to write secular laws based on fairy tales is absolute nonsense.”

    science caught up with the abortion argument long ago.. what used to be known only to the abortionist is open for all to know now.. so the old roe vs wade “clump of cells” excuse turned out to be the fairy tale.. surely you know this and agree – but if not: please educate yourself ..

    hope you are having a pleasant pre-election day.

  • Lucy P

    In 1987, I was coerced in to giving my daughter up for adoption. This damaged me in a most horrible way – so much so, that I felt worthless and ended up sleeping with anyone and everyone that wanted me, and guess what? I ended up pregnant, yet again, only a year and a month after… There was no way in HELL that I was going to let myself be allowed to be coerced into giving up another child, so I had an abortion. I have no regrets at all, as a matter of fact, giving my child up for adoption has had greater ramifications on my life than having an abortion EVER will. And, in 2003, it happened again – I ended up pregnant (I was unable to afford birth control pills, since they weren’t covered by insurance at the time…). So, I had another abortion. Again, no regrets, and the adoption issues are still much harder to deal with than any issues from an abortion EVER will be.

    And, just think about it, for those of you saying that God chose for my aborted children to have life, the same could be said for the infertile couples that are on the ‘waiting list’ for a baby. Maybe God chose to make them infertile for a reason – meaning He didn’t feel they were fit to parent… And also, if God didn’t want me to abort my children, wouldn’t He have found a way to stop me? Just saying… Don’t hate or judge, because you have not been in my shoes, so you don’t know the pain of adoption… Women need to have a choice – thank GOD I had a choice – twice…

  • SursumCorda

    ‘Don’t hate or judge..”

    Lucy P..

    i can only feel compassion for any woman who knows the pain of having a child torn away from her.. i’m only sad you seem to still be carrying the magnitude of hurt at being parted from your first child and that was such a long time ago.

    i would not have made the decisions you did – but you’ve told what happened well and i don’t judge you.

    best wishes.

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