Gov. Rick Perry’s anti-gay Christianity

GOP presidential candidate Rick Perry talks about his faith talks disparagingly of gays in the military in a new political … Continued

GOP presidential candidate Rick Perry talks about his faith talks disparagingly of gays in the military in a new political ad.

Texas Gov. Rick Perry’s new ad, which claims President Obama is waging a war on religion, goes far beyond being yet another blunder for the Republican presidential candidate and something he may regret long after the campaign.

For a presidential candidate to promote this kind of social and religious division is truly beyond astonishing. The vast majority of people of faith in this country have grown very wary of politicians who attempt to pervert the Christian faith as a means to gain political favor.

Perry’s misuse of the Christian faith is one reason young Americans raised in Christian homes are exiting the church at an all time high. Kids can spot hypocrisy a mile away.

At first glance, Perry’s ad appears to place the focus on the repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, which allows gay and lesbian people to serve openly in the military.

Don’t overlook the anti-gay language. It is obvious Gov. Perry doesn’t believe full human dignity should be afforded gay and lesbian people but that is not really the message behind this ad. Perry is hoping to gain favor with religious social conservatives by alleging President Obama stands against the Christian faith. Christian teaching contains a great number of guidelines on how Christians should treat others. I’ve yet to find a passage that would condone the type bigotry, prejudice and animosity that Gov. Perry is promoting with his ad.

The long-term consequence for Perry is that Americans will remember the ad not because Perry says he is not ashamed for being a Christian. Rather, they are going to remember how shameful it is for a Christian to run such an ad. Worse yet, they may consider what effect such behavior is having on the Christian church.

Perry may wish to revisit and prayerfully consider the following New Testament passages:

Mk. 9:50 “….Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with each other.”

Jn. 13:34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”

Jn. 15:12 “My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.”

Rom. 12:10 Be devoted to one another with mutual affection. Honor one another above yourselves.

Rom. 14:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another….

1 Cor. 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Gal. 5:26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Eph. 4:2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.

Jn. 13:14 “Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should?wash one another’s feet.”

Faith in America is a N.C.-based nonprofit which works nationally to educate the public about the harm to gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender individuals, especially LGBT youth and their families, when a religious and moral stamp of disapproval is placed on their sexual orientation. Brent Childers, who himself once used religious teaching to justify bigotry toward the LGBT community, serves as executive director.

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  • Matt_barchus

    Yet Christian ideology is a fundamental tenet of homophobic bigotry. Saying that some passages of that abject first century book promote equality and that others do not is to simply elucidate peoples uses of it, not that the book promotes one view over another. Once we admit that beliefs are the basis for our actions, it becomes imperative to rid the spectrum of thought of such vile and ignorant doctrine (through open criticism of it). You don’t need christinity to be good, but you certainly need forms of it to believe a father figure is judging your and other peoples sexual habits and will hold you accountable for them.

  • Matt_barchus

    Yet it is religious ideology that sparks this type of hateful bigotry and homophobia in the first place. You shouldn’t simply make allusions towards a more liberal section of an abjectly ignorant doctrine, it misses the point. The point is that you don’t need religious views to be moral, but you certainly need those beliefs to think that your sexual identity and other peoples sexual actions are being viewed by a third party that is going to hold all accountable for them. This is the seed of such bigotry.

  • lynnlm

    Social commentator and former alter-boy George Carlin sums it up, “Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can’t handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull*** story. Holy S***!”

  • jerrywerner777

    Childers! Whatever your qualifications were to write for “on faith” at the Post, it certainly was not Bible study. All of the Scripture references you used have been taken out of context. Christ was talking to His own, His followers, His believers. That is how they are to act toward each other.

    You are trying to create something that isn’t there. Let’s get basic here with two very straight forward Scriptures.

    1. Christ is teaching in the Sermon On The Mount: “Do not think I came to abolish the Law of the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.” Matthew 5:17 NASB
    2. Now, let’s go back to another mount, Mount Sinai, as God is giving the do’s and don’ts of sexuality in the third book of the Bible: Leviticus, eighteenth chapter, verse 22, “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”

    Governor Perry is not perfect, but he does profess to being a Christian and if he were to take a stand against the Scriptures, he indeed would be guilty of hypocrisy.

    Don’t forget that each person has to believe or not believe what is written. Freedom of choice; accept or reject – it’s that simple.

  • VirginiaJim

    Very good blog entry. Glad to see you chime in. Too many Christians have be cowered into silence or don’t study the scriptures enough to know God’s teachings on sexual immorality.

    I came across the article a few days ago and was shocked by the Biblical ignorance of the article and wrote a few lengthy blogs earlier that demonstrated how much the verses chosen were taken out of context. If you have time, go back down and give your input to the discussions for my posts.

    Don’t expect any balanced Bible-based dialogue on the topic anymore than a balanced discussion of the many other problems that repeal of DADT will bring or the terrible price that the nation has paid for all forms of sexual immorality- abortion, disease, divorce, child-abuse.

    If we want to show true love to the people trapped in this sin, we must stand up to the lie – regardless of the cost.

  • VirginiaJim

    Carlin was a funny guy, a ardent atheist, and one of the big inspirations to the “Occupy Wall Street” crowd. He gave lots of advice, such as don’t vote in elections, which he called an “illusion of choice.”

    Don’t think he has much wisdom to offer in a discussion on whether homosexuality is God’s will for man.

    Rom 1:18-22 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

    George Carlin played the fool and was a fool. Sad story.

  • thomasmc1957

    We all knew the GOP campaigns would be a contest to pick the biggest bigot.

  • quiensabe

    Sorry, Childers, your scriptures were to like minded believers, not to all the folks out there.

  • quiensabe

    There’s wisdom for you: basing eternal outcomes on what George Carlin said.

  • quiensabe

    Not sure just what you mean, “how convenient.” Childers proclaims Jesus wants us all to make nice. Aberrant behavior should be addressed, not condoned.

  • lynnlm

    If an American citizen is not a Christian, or a heterosexual, Perry will never protect that citizens rights!

  • VirginiaJim

    Dear areyousaying,

    If you don’t want to hear about Jesus, the blog post section on a Washington Post article on Christianity is likely not the place to hang out. Gov. Perry in his ad seems to be saying that there is an anti-Christian agenda tied to homosexuality. Your posts confirm the truth of his statements.

    Brent Childers seeks to redefine Christian teaching on sin and repentance away, you seem to want to intimidate Christians into silence, others want to regulate away Christian belief from traditional Christian charities, such as private hospitals, universities, adoption services, etc.

    Sharing the truth that there is a God with moral laws above and more authoritative than human reason or lusts is part of our constitutional rights in the United States. Your constitutional rights do not include silencing Christians speaking of homosexuality as sin, though there certainly is a concerted effort to redefine the Gospel as “hate speech” as has been done in Canada and Sweden.

    Look at what was done against the Operation Rescue protesters as opposed to the Occupy Wallstreet protesters. Double standards and hypocrisy are blatant.

  • VirginiaJim

    No as opposed to basing eternal outcomes from the Holy Scripture.

    BTW, areyousaying, their is a method to apply logic and/or science to the search for God if you are sincerely seeking the truth. I would be glad to point you to others who do a far better job than I in such areas. I was an agnostic who looked at other paths, including atheistic socialism and Zen Buddism but came to a firm belief in Jesus Christ when both the scientific method and the supernatural came together a point in my life and pointed undeniably to the love of the Father, who came into the world on a “Christmas” many centuries ago.

    Most people who reject God because of homosexuality or other sexual perversions (BSM, etc.) aren’t really using logic as the basis for their belief but rather the addiction to sexual gratification or the need to find acceptance with a damaged gender idenity. Sin leverages real human needs and desires and debases them.

    Regardless, Jesus can heal you and free you. He came in love and suffered greatly that you areyousaying could be free and live the life you were created to live as opposed to the lie that Satan wants you to believe.

  • joe1coramdeo1

    I applaud Virginia Jim’s response to Brent Childers’ tragic article. Unlike Childers (and unfortunately the vast majority of the nation), Virginia Jim has clearly studied God’s Word.

    Supporters of Childers who have also wrongfully attempted to justify homosexuality by mishandling Scripture generally argue that “Christian’s shouldn’t judge others, and God does not care about sexual sin.”

    Followers of God have always been accused of being judgmental. In Gen 19:9, Lot was accused of being “judgmental” by the homosexuals in Sodom (from where our word sodomy originates). However, Jesus commanded his followers to proclaim the truth in love despite the personal cost. Jesus clearly stated that marriage was a holy union between a man and a woman (Matt 19). John the Baptist was executed for publically condemning Herod’s adultery (Matt 14). Jesus praised John the Baptist above all others.

    Jesus’ ministry on earth began with a single word: “Repent!” (Matt 3:2) To the woman saved from stoning (mentioned by others), Jesus commanded “Go now and leave your life of sin (John 8).” Jesus said that those who loved him would obey him (John 14). Jesus’ last command to his disciples was to teach obedience to God’s commands (Matt 28:20). Sin is destructive and separates us from God. Jesus commanded obedience out of love, not hate.

    To all, Jesus offers forgiveness of sin and power to overcome sin; he does not offer acceptance of sin.

    “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.” Rom 6:23
    “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16

  • VirginiaJim

    To all who have been in discussion.

    I will be on travel this coming week and will likely not be able to continue the dialogue. Perhaps someone else will be able to step in who can explain the Christian perspective to those trapped by the sin of homosexuality.

    I have dealt with people that were addicted to drugs and alcohol and they tended to justify what they did and hated those who tried to point them to wellness just as many homosexuals do. I understand your desperation and the power of lust to rule your minds and bodies. If you want to be free, there is freedom in Jesus.

    The first words that Jesus preached states, Luk 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

    I pray with all my heart that you will accept this freedom.

    Agape,

    VirginiaJim

  • Manwolf

    I told you to go to hell. Why are you still here?

  • hearthasreasons

    I wish that people could understand that there is a difference between believing that homosexual acts are immoral and believing that homosexual people are not deserving of respect. Jesus treated everyone with respect and love, including those who society marked as “sinners,” but he did this without ever condoning any sinful behaviors. I may think that some of your moral choices are wrong, whether they be about your sexual behavior or about who you voted for or about what kind of car you drive or whether you gave back the extra quarter when the cashier give you too much change, but that doesn’t mean I think that you or anyone else who makes such choices should be treated like a second-class citizen or some kind of non-person.

  • Catken1

    “I wish that people could understand that there is a difference between believing that homosexual acts are immoral and believing that homosexual people are not deserving of respect. ”

    As long as you don’t view it as your right to use the secular law to punish gay people for being gay, including denying them access to the same marriage contract you have as long as they have a consenting adult partner.

    After all, there is a difference between believing that Christians are immoral and believing that Christian people are not deserving of respect – but I’d bet you’d get upset if people who believed both – or even just the first – tried to take away your marriage and custody of your children on the grounds that you were married in an immoral church and teaching your children an immoral faith.

  • Catken1

    VirginiaJim, why do you get angry at those who point out the sickness inherent in religious bigotry, and hate those who point you to wellness as drug addicts and alcoholics do?
    If you want to be free, there is freedom in loving your neighbor as yourself, and allowing them the same freedom to be themselves as you would have, rather than seeking to impose your illness on their lives.

  • Catken1

    Many Muslims believe that Christianity is sin – indeed, the ultimate sin of idolatry.
    Now, when Muslims in Muslim-majority countries act on that belief, and use the power of their governments to treat Christians as second-class citizens, do you object to their oppressive acts, or cheer them on for standing up for the tenets of their faith?
    What is hateful to you, do not do unto your neighbor.

  • Catken1

    Exactly. Aberrant obsession with your neighbor’s sex life, and the aberrant desire to use government force to make others comply with your religious beliefs (because they are apparently not convincing enough beliefs for reason and persuasion to be sufficient?) should be addressed, not condoned.

  • Catken1

    “Sharing the truth that there is a God with moral laws above and more authoritative than human reason or lusts is part of our constitutional rights in the United States.”

    That’s fine. (Some of us believe those moral laws include not hurting other people because the loves God or Nature gave them include partners of the same sex, and we are as free as you to speak.)
    What is not fine is believing that you have the right to use government force to punish those who do not adhere to your religious laws, or favor those who do. If you can’t convince others using reason, logic, and persuasion, you do not have the right to use force.
    And no, people are not seeking to “intimidate you into silence” because they answer you, even when they argue against you. Other people are permitted not to kiss up to you and tell you how great your beliefs are, really, they are. People who find your beliefs sinful are entitled to tell you that, too.

  • Catken1

    “No as opposed to basing eternal outcomes from the Holy Scripture. ”

    So your god’s scriptures say that many, many of your brothers and sisters will be tortured, burned, and savagely hurt for eternity for the crime of falling in love with someone of the same sex (who controls with whom they fall in love?) and not then giving up the idea of love and a family and so many of the good things that makes life bright and joyous for a barren and lonely celibacy, or for being born to parents of the “wrong” religion and believing what those parents teach them as true. And you will be sitting up in your petted favorite-child spot in heaven, cheering on and kissing up to the Daddy who sets fire to your siblings for “crimes” that involve no hurt to anyone, nothing but love and the desire for family, or the desire to believe what everyone they loved and respected in childhood taught them as true. Even if they were good and decent people otherwise.

    And this is logic? This is morality? This is healing and freedom?

    What happens if you’re wrong, and some other sect of Christianity, or another faith, is God’s chosen one? After all, plenty of people are every bit as convinced, in heart and soul and mind, that their way, incompatible with yours, is the right way. All of you seem to have about the same level of evidence backing your beliefs. Maybe one of them is correct, instead of you. Will you go to eternal torture cheerfully as an earned punishment for believing something that turned out not to be true?

  • JustAthoughtt

    Do you believe in God?

    If not, how do you believe in good and evil or right and wrong as you openly express here?

    What makes something good or bad? Is it subjective?

  • JustAthoughtt

    According to the Bible, Hell is not a place that people go for loving the wrong person or being taught the wrong thing by our parents.
    Hell is separation from God, and people go there because they failed to turn from their sin, acknowledge it for what it is, and turn to the love, grace, and mercy of God.

    If we have free will, then we can CHOOSE to do evil and hurtful things, and we can choose to live a life of sin too. And there are consequences for our actions!

    A mother CHOOSES to do drugs and CHOOSES to have sex causing her to have a drug addicted baby who suffers throughout life and dies at a young age.

    This child did not CHOOSE to be this way, but it was a consequence of her mother’s decisions…

    Man CHOSE to sin against God, as a result, we are all born into sin. And it is not sin alone or a sin in particular that causes us to go to hell, because we all sin, it is the fact that we don’t CHOOSE to turn from our sin, repent, and turn to God.

    If there is no God, then how is there such a thing as right and wrong? Plz explain

  • JustAthoughtt

    I have some questions…
    1)Do you believe there is a God? Why or why not
    2)If there is no God, then how is there right and wrong?
    3)If there is a God, and there is right and wrong, then could people sin or even be born a sinner?
    4)If yes to above then people could be born with homosexual, selfish, abusive, destructive (etc, etc)… sinful tendencies, and the fact that they were born that way would not change the fact that they are wrong…
    Everyone is born into sin, sin is still sin… wrong is still wrong and right is still right

  • JustAthoughtt

    Sorry, what scripture is that again?

    Also, Muslims believe that the bible is the word of God, but that “Christians” didn’t keep the scriptures “uncorrupted” so Mohammed came and gave people Gods word again…

  • JustAthoughtt

    People should absolutely treat other people with love and respect. However, that does not mean that you have to condone what they are doing and it does not mean that you can’t be against what they are doing…

    I love and respect my friend who has had 3 separate abortions from relationships with three different men. She believes that there is nothing wrong with sleeping around or with using an abortion as a form of birth control.

    I love and respect her, but I do not agree/condone/support the lifestyle that she CHOOSES.

    And if I there was a Vote for if I support abortions in all circumstances or if abortion is wrong and should not be done in 99.9% of the circumstances…

    I would vote that I believe that it is wrong, and that it should be stopped…

    That is the whole point of a democracy, people vote for what they believe in… that doesn’t mean that what they believe is right or wrong…

    And it doesn’t mean that someone is a bigot bc they disagree with you and your world view…

  • Catken1

    And I can think that your friend is misguided and wrong without wanting to take the right of choice away from other women – after all, she may be wrong in not giving over her womb to nurture a baby, but it is hers to give or withhold as she sees fit.

    I think it’s wrong for people to refuse blood donations that save lives when they can give quite easily without any real harm or inconvenience – but I don’t think they should be forced to give if they don’t want to.

  • Catken1

    They also think that Jesus was a human prophet and that to worship him as a god is idolatry.
    Again, do you support the right of majority religions that aren’t yours to interfere with your right to live as you please and force you to conform to their idea of moral and righteous behavior? If not, why do you believe you have the right to do that to non-Christians?

  • Catken1

    “1)Do you believe there is a God? Why or why not

    No evidence for one, but no proof there is not. Anyway, any decent and sane God would want Her/His children to live in a decent, just and kindly way – the way that is most conducive to all of us living healthy and happy lives, and no more than we should do anyway if there is no god.

    So either way, I think it is best to live a decent, just and kindly life, because if there is a good God, they will be pleased by that, and if there is not, it is still the best way to make life pleasant for all.

    2)If there is no God, then how is there right and wrong?

    First of all, “we need God to give us an idea of right and wrong” is not a convincing argument for God’s existence, any more than, “I’d be unhappy if there were no God”, or “I want there to be a God”. If reality is amoral and atheistic, you can’t make it otherwise by wishing it so.

    However, whether or not there is a god, there is certainly a reason to live a moral, kindly and just life, and that is the fact that if everyone did that, we would have a decent, healthy and happy society. And the fact that it makes you a better, happier, and more fulfilled person, as one can clearly see by example. The less selfish, more caring, and the more honest, just and fair a person is, the better life they tend to have, and the more fulfilled and happy they tend to be, and the more other people tend to like and respect them.

    3)If there is a God, and there is right and wrong, then could people sin or even be born a sinner?

    If there is an invisible pink unicorn who tells you it’s right to be left-handed and sinful to be right-handed, could people be born sinful and evil by being born right-handed?

    Certainly. But you have to offer me evidence that your god exists, and evidence that what you are asserting to be sinful behavior actually is so. Simply saying that it is so is not an argument.

    Have you no better standard for right and wrong than “God told me so”, and if your god is proven not to ex

  • Catken1

    4)If yes to above then people could be born with homosexual, selfish, abusive, destructive (etc, etc)… sinful tendencies, and the fact that they were born that way would not change the fact that they are wrong…

    If yes to above, then people could be born with the selfish, abusive, nosy, and destructive tendency to judge other people’s sex lives as “immoral” solely by the genitals of their partners, not by their behavior or conduct towards those partners, and could have an abusive and sick need to immorally and cruelly hurt gay people and damage their families because of that judgment.

    It is possible that the same sort of love, marriage and family is Good in one case and Bad in another just because of the dangly bits involved. It is likewise possible that it is morally wrong to be right-handed or blue-eyed, in the eyes of a god. But it is not, in my mind, very likely that any decent or sane God would judge the morality of a relationship by genitals and body shape than by hearts and minds, or worse yet, burn people alive forever and ever because they fell in love with the wrong person.

    And if God need not be rational or kind in determining morality, how is he any different from the bully who makes up arbitrary rules and beats up anyone who doesn’t comply with them?

    “Everyone is born into sin, sin is still sin… wrong is still wrong and right is still right”

    And you still have to provide rational evidence for determining “right” and “wrong” other than “my God says so” in order to be persuasive to non-co-religionists.

    You likewise have to provide rational, non-religious evidence for the superiority of your beliefs before you can use the government to enforce your beliefs on others or have special government-granted privileges for those who abide by your beliefs.

    Otherwise, Jews and Muslims would have every right to pass laws barring you from eating pork, on the grounds that their God says pork is sinful. Likewise, members of other faiths might be able to use the governmen

  • Catken1

    “If there is no God, then how is there such a thing as right and wrong? Plz explain ”

    Right and wrong are human concepts designed to promote happy, healthy human coexistence in society.

    If it were proven to you tomorrow that there is no God, would you suddenly become a thieving, raping mass murderer? If not, why not?

    And you really think it’s OK for God to burn people alive forever and ever because they fall in love with someone of the same sex, or turn to the “wrong” idea of God (when we have no more real, tangible evidence for one God than another)? Is that made right just because it’s God doing it? If God told you to slaughter your neighbor in cold blood, would you accept that as just and righteous, or would you question whether what you were hearing was God’s voice?

    What would happen to you if you died and met God face to face, and God said to you sternly, “Because you sinfully sought to hurt your LGBT sisters and brothers by turning them away from the loving relationships I gave them, and sought to tear asunder what I had joined, and did not repent and turn to Me when you had a chance, I will now send you to Hell where you will be separated from Me eternally!” Would you accept that you had been wrong and deserved eternal punishment for your mistake, just because you believed the wrong thing about God, had the wrong idea about what God wanted?

    Do you think it impossible that you are wrong? If you are so, will you deserve eternal punishment for your mistake, which you made in well-intentioned human imperfection, something none of us can avoid?

  • Catken1

    JustAThoughtt – if your god were proven not to exist, would all your concepts of morality go “poof”?

    If God ordered you to torture an innocent child because the child had blond hair and God said blond hair was sinful, and you knew it was God speaking, would that make it right?

    Do you have proof that your god exists, and that your god is in fact in any way moral, let alone the supreme moral arbiter?

  • TopTurtle

    Step 1 in scriptural interpretation:

    Do I like what it says?

    If yes, post it on government property.

    If no, ignore it creatively.

  • Carstonio

    The only think that sexual orientation and religious affiliation have in common is that for any individual, these are private issues and no one else should have a say in them. Something is wrong with this country when presidential candidates want to make these private things the government’s business.

  • Carstonio

    Sorry, I meant “the only thing.”

  • Carstonio

    It doesn’t even make sense to deem homosexuality as immoral. Morality is about whether an action has a helpful or harmful effect on others, and by that standard both heterosexuality and homosexuality are morally neutral. If a person believes that homosexuality goes against his personal values, that only applies to himself and not to anyone else. The same principle applies to religious affiliation or to dietary choices like vegetarianism.

  • amm72

    Well hearthas, if you think that it’s all just an issue of bad behavior in private, then surely you agree that the repeal of DADT was a good thing, since “bad behavior in private” isn’t a reason to deny someone the right to serve his country.

    I do bristle a bit that everything I’ve shared with people I’ve loved boils down to “bad behavior in private,” but I’m not sure I want to get into that discussion with you. Unless we can establish some ground rules and a basic place to begin discussing love and relationships and what they bring to our lives.

  • JustAthoughtt

    1st things 1st, you said: “Many Muslims believe that Christianity is sin – indeed, the ultimate sin of idolatry.”

    What scripture is that?

    But for your question, where do we come up with “moral behavior” if not from God?

  • JustAthoughtt

    You haven’t really answered any of my questions, so let’s narrow it down and try this again…
    1)Do you believe there is 1 all powerful God who is the creator? (yes or no)

    2)You say:
    “First of all, we need God to give us an idea of right and wrong is not a convincing argument for God’s existence… However, whether or not there is a god, there is certainly a reason to live a moral, kindly and just life, and that is the fact that if everyone did that, we would have a decent, healthy and happy society”

    If there is no God, and we are all here by random chance, and over time we evolved to be what we are now, then there is no such thing as morals or right and wrong…

    There are choices and there are consequences of choices but there is no right and wrong or morality…

    Morality would therefore be subjective. Everyone is different, what makes one person happy upsets another person. So you would force what you think is right on other people?

    **How would Morality be anything but subjective, and how can you impose what you believe to be right on someone else?

  • JustAthoughtt

    If there is a God that gives no instruction on right and wrong but still holds me accountable for something I could not possibly know, then I will have no choice but to accept my punishment

    However, if there is a God that gives me instructions on right and wrong and I chose to do what is wrong, and I am so bold to not only do what is wrong, but I will call it right, then I will too have to accept my punishment

    You say
    “Right and wrong are human concepts designed to promote happy, healthy human coexistence in society”

    This means that morality is subjective… Abortion as birth control, moral? Prostitution moral? Drugs, moral? Rape moral? Child pornography moral? Polygamy, moral? Bestiality moral?

    All of these things make millions of people happy, they also make millions of people upset, some of these things hurt others (rape, abortion), while some of them don’t(prostitution, drugs, child pornography, polygamy, bestiality).
    So why are some legal and others aren’t, and which ones are moral and which ones aren’t and why?

  • JustAthoughtt

    You say:
    “if your god were proven not to exist, would all your concepts of morality go “poof”?

    Yes, they would all be gone, bc my morality is dependent upon Gods word.

    If there was no God, Morality would probably be what the majority of people agreed upon and it would also change over time as people change.

    So if the majority of people said that homosexuality is wrong and those people should be jailed for the rest of their lives than that would be moral bc the majority of people at that point in time believed it to be right, and it 100 years later the majority of people believed that it was now ok to be a homosexual, then it would now be ok.

    Morality would be subjective, ever changing, and nothing would be right or wrong, just what the majority thinks is best at that point in time.

    And your example of eye/hair color is a poor one… Your appearance has nothing to do with sin, it is your ACTIONS. People are born killers, yet we punish them for how they were born…

  • LOrion

    Just disliked. May not have been result they were looking for. 6,607,101 viewers.
    of them 697,000 voted.

    Like 21,662, DISLIKE 675,886!

  • Rongoklunk

    I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious theories of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God.
    Thomas Edison 1847-1931. Columbia Magazine.

    Neither in my private life nor in my writings have I ever made a secret of being an out-and-out unbeliever.
    Sigmund Freud !856-1939

    Properly read, the bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
    Isaac Asimov 1925-1992

    As for myself, I do not believe that such a person as Jesus Christ ever existed, but as the people are inclined to superstition, it is proper not to oppose them.
    Napoleon Bonaparte 1769-1821

    I’m an atheist and that’s it. I believe there’s nothing we can know except that we should be kind to each other and do what we can for each other.
    Katherine Hepburn quoted in Ladies Home Journal Oct.!991

    The bible is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it, and some clever fables, and some blood drenched history, and some good morals, and a wealth of obscenity, and upwards of a thousand lies.
    Mark Twain 1835-1910 in Letters from the Earth

    My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking why I should ever change them.
    Abraham Lincoln 1809-1865

    I do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and there are many other of the postulates of the orthodox creed to which I cannot subscribe.
    Wm Howard Taft 1857-1930

    The memory of my own suffering has prevented me from ever shadowing one young soul with the superstitions of the Christian religion.
    Elizabeth Cady Stanton 1815-1902

    I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But as much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking.
    Carl Sagan 1934-1996

    I regard monotheism a

  • Rongoklunk

    As a historian, I confess to a certain amusement when I hear the JudeoChristian tradition praised as the source of our present day concern for human rights…In fact the great religious ages were notable for their indifference to human rights.
    Arthur Schlesinger Jr Historian, in a speech at Brown University.

    God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain these things that you do not understand. Now, when you finally discover how something works, you get some laws which you’re taking away from god. you don’t need him anymore.
    Richard Feynman 1918-1988 Nobel Prize winning physicist

    The Christian system of religion is an outrage to common sense.
    Thomas Paine 1737-1809 American Revolutionary Hero

    I thought nature itself was so interesting that I didn’t want it distorted by miracle stories. And so I gradually came to disbelieve the whole religion.
    Richard Feynman 1918-1988 Physicist, in Why Do You Care What Other People Think?

    Today, the theory of evolution is an accepted fact for everyone but a fundamental minority who’s objections are based not on reasoning
    but on doctrinaire adherence to religious principles.
    James Watson Biologist and co-discoverer of DNA’s structure.

    Evolution, as such, is no longer a theory for a modern author. It is as much a fact as that the earth revolves around the sun.
    Ernst Mayr 1904-2005 Harvard Science Prof.

  • Rongoklunk

    A knowledge of the true age of the earth and of the fossil record makes it impossible for any balanced intellect to believe in the literal truth of every part of the Bible the way fundamentalists do. And if some of the Bible is manifestly wrong, why should any of the rest of it be accepted automatically?
    Francis Crick. co-discoverer of DNA

    There is nothing more negative than the result of the critical study of the life of Jesus. The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the Kingdom of God, who founded the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth, and died to give his work its final consecration, never had any existence.
    Albert Schweitzer.1875-1965 French Physician, Philosopher and Humanitarian in “The Quest For The Historical Jesus”.

    Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people.
    For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, ie., by a prayer to a Supernatural Being.
    Albert Einstein 1879-1955 in his biography ‘The Human Side”.

    The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence that it is not utterly absurd; indeed, in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.
    Bertrand Russell 1872-1970 Philosopher and Mathematician, in “Marriage and Morals.”

    If revealed religions have revealed anything it is that they are usually wrong.
    Francis Crick co-discoverer of DNA

    If you talk to God, you are praying; if God talks to you, you have schizophrenia.
    Thomas Szasz MD psychologist in, “The Second Sin”

    Although the time is approaching me, I am not afraid of dying and going to Hell or (what would be considerably worse) going to the popularized version of Heaven. I expect death to be nothingness and, for removing me from all possible fears of death – I am thankful to atheism,
    Isaac Asimov 1920-1992 Scientist and

  • quiensabe

    Sounds like you are saying, areyousaying, it’s ok to be gay if you grant amnesty to the illegal aliens. I could be wrong.

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