Minorities in the Muslim world

The recent attack and murder of Ismailis in Indonesia is a sad testament to the state of the Muslim community. … Continued

The recent attack and murder of Ismailis in Indonesia is a sad testament to the state of the Muslim community. Stories of persecution of minorities in the Muslim world are all too common (see this link, and this, and this, for instance). Often this persecution stems from religious intolerance, and the judgment that religious minorities (whether they be Shi’a in Sunni lands, Sunnis in Shi’a lands, Ahmedis, Ismailis, or other Islamic splinter groups) are not “true Muslims,” or that they have left the faith altogether. This judgment stands contrary to the Islamic teaching that only God knows what is in a person’s heart, and that faith is between the believer and God, not a matter about which believers should judge one another.

Even if one believes that someone else is mistaken or blasphemous, that they have left the fold of Islam, or never entered it to begin with, it is not our job to police faith. “Let there be no compulsion in religion,” the Qur’an tells us in its second chapter. This includes not only Sunnis and Shi’ites, Ismailis and Ahmedis, but extends to Jews and Christians, to Hindus, and Buddhists and Bahais.

When such persecution descends into violence or, worse, murder, it violates teachings that ask us to want for our brothers what we want for ourselves (Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim), and is patently against the verses that tell us that killing an innocent person is like killing all of humankind, and saving a person from murder is as saving all of humankind (surah, Maidah, verse 32).

The organization I co-founded, Muslims for Progressive Values, has stood out against the persecution of minorities, and at times been criticized heavily for those views from people who argue that Muslims must safeguard their faith. I believe instead, that these people need to expand their understanding of God, of faith, and what it means to be a believer. God calls him/herself Merciful, Compassionate, Responsive, Listening, all-Encompassing. It’s foolish to think that excludes people simply because they don’t follow the rituals of a particular faith, or because they approach God in their own heart-felt manner.

  • abrahamhab1

    Muslims are confused and for very good reasons. Islam derives its rituals, ideology and philosophy from the Quran, the Hadith (sayings attributed to the Muslim prophet) and Sira (the bibliography of the Muslim prophet). All three have internal contradictions. Some among the Muslims try to remove those confusing contradictions by eliminating whatever in Hadith and/or Sira that contradicts the Quran. They justify this attitude by claiming that much of the Hadith and Sira was unauthentic and was slipped in there by Muslims with special selfish reasons. The Quran on the other hand is “Allah exact words” and should be the final arbiter. The problem is there are more contradictions in the Quran as well. The part that was written in during the first part of Mohammed’s mission has a completely different theme than the one written later in Medina.While you could find some somehow tolerant verses in the early part there is none such verses in the latter.

  • WmarkW

    Sura 2:256 gets quoted so often in English that even _I_ know the number by heart. How often is it cited in its original Arabic?Pamela’s version of Islam is noble, but not real. She’s taken the values of a 21st century feminist and added the supernatural part only of an ancient faith, the way many American women adapt Wicca, Yoga or Gaiaism to modern values. Islam as practiced by complete societies, is at its heart a religion made by and for military men, who consider it a form of loyalty in their land, and don’t really distinguish interfaith from treason.

  • yasseryousufi

    …and at times been criticized heavily for those views from people who argue that Muslims must safeguard their faith. I believe instead, that these people need to expand their understanding of God, of faith, and what it means to be a believer. God calls him/herself Merciful, Compassionate, Responsive, Listening, all-Encompassing. It’s foolish to think that excludes people simply because they don’t follow the rituals of a particular faith, or because they approach God in their own heart-felt manner. Ms. Taylor, I am not second guessing your intention regarding this organization that you have co-founded. I am not interested in the verbal sophistry you indulge in from time to time on this blog all the while hiding your real intentions and beliefs. You will do the Muslims on this blog a favor by clearly stating the positions of yourself and your organization’s, on the following matters.1. Does your organization support re-writing the Quran to support American2. Are you for legalizing Homosexuality in Islam?3. Are you against oppressed muslims doing Jihad to set themselves free from the clutches of occupiers in Palestine, Afganistan, Iraq, Kashmir etc? or do we throw out Jihad as well?4. What were your views of US attack on Iraq?

  • halozcel2

    The Book of Allah says:The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger,and strive with might and main for MISCHIEF THROUGH THE LAND is EXECUTION or the CUTTING OFF of HANDS and FEET from opposite side 5.33The Religion of Allah is the Culture of Submission.You shall submit to Allah and His Messenger.The Religion of Allah doesnt accept Dissident,Opposition and Mischiefmaker.-Iranian Cleric call Execution for the Protesters.Yes,he is right according to Quran.

  • Sajanas

    It is a losing argument to try and oppose Koranic traditionalists by quoting from the Koran. There are equally compelling verses and stories to support them, such as Mohammad himself assenting to the execution or expulsion of Jews in Medina. The Prophets actions in Medina are not magnanimous like his words in Mecca, nor are his actions towards those who disbelieved when he actually had power to do something about it. I think it is far easier to try to appeal to ideas of modern human rights, which tend to be both concise, comprehensive, and consistent. Trying to rip apart the Koran to fit this view might work (as it has with the Bible), but its far better to make the case for human rights on their own, without encumbering it with the notions of a man who was perfectly happy to butcher those who disagreed with him.

  • supermoe88

    Pamela, I fully concur with your sentiments. The problem in the Muslim world today is that the Wahabbis, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda have hijacked the discourse on Islam. The majority of Muslims in the world, especially in the developing world, have little secular education and have learned their “Islam” from madrasas and from khutbas in the mosque, usually from a mulla or imam who has not completed high school. Further, most of these global madrasas – whether in Indonesia, Philippines, Pakistan, Sudan, somalia, etc.- are financed, sponsored and staffed by the Saudi wahabbis, who propagate their myopic, extremist and literalist interpretations on the unsuspecting Muslim youth. Until this changes, there is little hope for unity in the Muslim ummah…These “Muslim” hypocrites who differentiate between Sunni, Shia, Ismaili, Alawi, Bohra, etc., and kill each other should understand that there is ONLY ONE definition of a Muslim; one who accepts the Shahada, “there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger”. The rest of Islam and indeed the Holy Qur’an is open to pluralistic interpretation and practice.

  • WmarkW

    “Pamela, I fully concur with your sentiments. The problem in the Muslim world today is that the Wahabbis, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda have hijacked the discourse on Islam.”Take away the Quran, Hadiths and adoration of Muhammed as the model human being, and Islam would be Unitarianism — there’s one God who wants us to behave morally, act charitably to our fellow men, and create a just society. I suspect Pamela interprets Islam pretty much that way.But real Islam is rooted in the culture and values of seventh century Arabia as interpreted and enforced by warlords. It’s difficult to imagine that becoming a modern, universal, knowledge-based society.

  • Mooody

    Liars….USA Lying Media…..Shame on you……or would it appropriate to call you sameless…..Watch below freshly exported freedom by Obama, previously by bush ….”either you are with us or against us……I will be back….again and again and again…..Two US main political parties, Bush Or Obama belong to same butcher dictatorial regime. Very few controlling their own masses and destroying others.

  • YEAL9

    The Five Steps To Deprogram 1400 Years of Islamic Myths:( –The Steps take less than two minutes to finish- simply amazing, two minutes to bring peace and rationality to over one billion lost souls- Priceless!!!)Are you ready? Using “The 77 Branches of Islamic “faith” a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true “faith” (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings.” i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs. aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc. should be added to your cleansing neurons.”2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence.”Evolution and the Big Bang or the “Gi-b G-nab” (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the “akas” for Allah should be included if you continue to be a “crea-tionist”.”3. To believe in the existence of angels.”A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/de-vils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hitt-ites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No “pretty/ug-ly wingy thingies” ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as f–airies and “tin–ker be-lls”. Modern de-vils are classified as the de-mons of the de-mented.”4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore.”Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the un-educated masses in line. Today we call them for-tune tellers.Prophecies are also invali-dated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.”5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) Unfortunately, there are not many Muslim commentators/readers on this blog so the “two-minute” cure is not getting to those who need it. If you have a Muslim friend, send him a copy and help save the world.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    YasseryousufiOnce again, you are demonstrating your sexually repressed bigotry. Women are only good for one thing, and otherwise should stay in their place.And gay people should all be killed.I feel very sure that the source of your homo-phobia derives from your very own repressed homosexuality.Of course, the protportion of your outrage to my discovery of your hidden truth will demonstrate the truth of the matter.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    MooodyWhy do you deny the Holocaust? Germany doesn’t deny it.Why do you deny 9/11? Osama Bin Ladin doesn’t deny it.You can’t stand the truth. You are eat-up with lies. Why should anybody pay any attention at all to such a hypocritical bigotted lying heckler, like you?You claim to be a loving person. But you are filled with bitter hatred.You take offense at my criticisms. Boy, is that IRONIC! All you do is run down and crtiicize EVERYBODY. You hate Jews, Christians, Hindus, and atheists. You hate Europeans, Americans, and Indians. Did you ever stop to think that maybe the problem isn’t “everybody else?” Maybe the problem is you.I size you up to be a self-hating Muslim woman, who has been brainwashed by your masculine handlers to mouth all of your mean-spirited propoganda.Well, guess what? You are not convincing or converting anyone over to your perverted way of thinking. You are instead showing yourself as a perfect example of the what we should all avoid becoming.Good luck with your crippled English reply. Just say any foolish words that come to mind; they don’t have to make any sense at all; just babble nonsense; that is your speciality.

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    Liars….USA Lying Media…..Shame on you……or would it appropriate to call you sameless…..Watch below freshly exported freedom by Obama, previously by bush ….”either you are with us or against us……I will be back….again and again and again…..Two US main political parties, Bush Or Obama belong to same butcher dictatorial regime. Very few controlling their own masses and destroying others.Posted by: Mooody

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    Yasser,How are you? You’ve got to end this nonsense with Pamela. She’s American. I generally disagree with her, and would like her to say something about the now Judenrein Middle East, Muslim antisemitism in Europe, etc.You have your agenda for her, I mine.But in America, you can either be a homophobic lunatic, like some clergy–Muslim, Catholic, and, unfortunately, Jewish–or human.I honestly believe if you could live here for a year among highly literate respected Muslims, you just might see that it is not evil to accept difference and practice Islam.We are not living in the seventh century nor are we living with Moses, PBUH. By the way, the acronym was used for Moshe, long before Mahammad was born.I haven’t blogged here for awhile, but I did keep an eye open for your posts.Farnaz

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    It would be nice if Muslims stopped murdering the Ismaeli Shiia. There is, at present, only one nation in which they enjoy full civil rights, and they are fierce patriots.Want to tell your readers the name of that country, Pamela?

  • yasseryousufi

    Why do you deny 9/11? Osama Bin Ladin doesn’t deny it.Actually Osama never claimed credit for it nor denied it. You must be referring to the fake Osama video that CIA now concedes it had doctored to show Osama taking credit for 9/11. Why would CIA doctor an Osama video??? Meanwhile a CIA contractor is under arrest in Pakistan caught red handed recruiting terrorists and killing 3 innocent people (the jokers at State Department claim he is a Diplomat, for once Pakistani’s have had enough of American lies). There is also the case of David Headley, also a CIA operative charged in the Mumbai attacks blamed on Pakistan. You should probably take out some time listening what Jesse Ventura (former Navy Seal) says about the machinations of CIA all over the world. It would be hard to disentangle CIA with terrorism even for someone like you, and that says a lot.

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    Oh, please, Yasser, we all know who was behind Mumbai. Btw., where is he now? It’s been what–a year since his daughter’s wedding?

  • yasseryousufi

    Farnaz,Long time! Thought you had finally made it to Pakistan. My issues with Pam Taylor aren’t non-sensical at all. She has an agenda set for her by her mentor Daniel Pipes. She comes up with subtle distortions of Islam every now and then (not necessarily in this post). Now she is using this blog to market her Muslims for Progressive Values which like her previous indulgence the discredited and disgraced Progressive Muslim Union (

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    Yasser,Hello! Daniel Pipes?! And Pamela? What have you been smoking?No, I did not make it, and I still don’t understand why all the hassle.How are things there now? Yasser, you really can’t believe some of what you write. I mean I literally cannot stand R. Hirschfield at times, but I wouldn’t say his mentor was Ahmedinejad.Besides, what makes you think Daniel Pipes supports gay rights? He’s not a simple man, btw., not by any stretch. But, that is beside the point.

  • yasseryousufi

    Farnaz,The world is full of surprises. However, Pam Taylor and Daniel Pipes relation isn’t such a big deal. She absolutely fits into Daniel Pipes project of propping up “Moderate Islam” hence this Moderate Muslim~!

  • yasseryousufi

    …oops, I meant modern muslim

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    Dawood IbrahimAnd you are an immoderate Muslim, then? Do you have a great beard? I always pictured you as clean shaven. :0

  • yasseryousufi

    Aah yes Dawood….the erstwhile Mumbai Mafia Don! Dont think anyone accused him for the bombings this time round though, no? This was a mass scale operation that could only be conducted by an intelligence organization with previous experience of pulling off such acts of Mass terror (9/11??)

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    Yes, many thought it was him, many in India and in Pakistan. But, do you have a beard then? Is it permitted in the civil service?I would like to meet you one day, and introduce you to my friends. But they are aristocrats, and you must not scream at them.They are aristocrats, literally. Still, they are very nice.

  • yasseryousufi

    I have a beard sometimes, A la Johhny Depp! I have no problem meeting your friends, I might know some of them.

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    Yes, you might. I sent a Pashtoon student of mine to them, but I can’t say more now. He drove them insane, but I begged them to make him welcome whenever he visited, and they did for my sake.He is quite the comer, now. I don’t know if they are moderate or immoderate. But, I think you might think the latter. They are observant in every way, but they do not have a problem with gay people. OR, anyone else, really, except perhaps, your government.It is interesting. I’m thinking now of my closest friends, not my closest “Pakistani” friends. They have been educated on three continents. Neither of them would ever want to repatriate. It sound so ridiculous, but I so wish Pakistan could be free of all that encumbers it!

  • yasseryousufi

    Pakistani Aristocrats are known to show exemplary good manners, humbleness and humility in the company of foreigners, their true masters…..So if you really wanna show off your influential friends don’t expect me to be surprised by them being overwhelmed in presence of a bunch of foreigners :)

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    Pakistani Aristocrats are known to show exemplary good manners, humbleness and humility in the company of foreigners, their true masters…..So if you really wanna show off your influential friends don’t expect me to be surprised by them being overwhelmed in presence of a bunch of foreigners :)He also had not shaken the idea of a vendetta–it’s a long story. At all events, he was and is brilliant, and a thoroughly decent person. This they finally saw, and then, too, he matured. He’s very successful now.I think the man will like you. He’s very quiet unless he loses his temper. At such times the Richter scale reaches high levels in Islamabad. You must have heard about it.She is insanely beautiful, gracious, passionate, cannot abide rudeness in anyone she doesn’t know. You’re quite right about manners, decorum. That is why you must not scream at them or tell them that anyone you disagree with is a Zionist and that sort of thing. They don’t blog, so language still means something to them. :)She had insanely high hopes for Obama, smart as she is, and she is very smart. Hope springs eternal among the best and the brightest, I guess….Even they could not find out why I among others had such a hassle about visiting your country. At all events, we’re trying again for the Fall. Grants, funding are all in still in place for me. I just don’t get what happened.

  • yasseryousufi

    Farnaz, You talk up your friends too much. I might end up teaching them a thing or two myself. Personally, there is just one person I would like to meet whose courage I truly admire, if I ever go to America. He too is a Jewish Professor but I doubt you’d be too fond of him. I love hearing him, the commanding way he tears apart his detractors. His name is Prof. Norman Finkelstein. He’s my Elvis!

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    I not only have met him, but I sliced him to pieces. I have it on tape. When we meet, you will be surprised. I am very soft spoken, and cannot be baited. He believes he deals in facts. I deal in facts. He thinks he knows. I know. I have a reputation here, Yasser, not unearned. He is no longer of any consequence in the US, but at the time of our meeting, I caused quite a stir.I take people off guard by my appearance as well. In a way, I felt sorry for him in advance. On the other hand, he had it coming.Where and when did you hear him speak?

  • yasseryousufi

    I saw him tear apart that pesky, little, Zionist, Alan Dershowitz in a debate on youtube. Funny there were some comments that said it was Dershowitz who won the debate. So I will reserve my judgment until I personally see your credentials. Why not upload that tape on youtube?I am actually not surprised that he is of no consequence in the US such is the power of Zionists and AIPAC. I read Deshowitz. the sore loser that he is, got him thrown out of the University he taught at and no University in US will take him in. Same fate has befallen other literary giants in US like Mearsheimer, Walt, Chomsky, Carter subject to vicious attacks by Israeli lobby hell bent on holding the US by the balls. But I’m looking forward to you “slicing” Finkelstein to pieces. Its got to be an epic….

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    You are such an idiot, Yasser. He is of no consequence now because he messed himself up.The debate, so to speak, with Dershowitz was no debate, and it had nothing to do with either AIPAC or Zionism, you moron.Dershowitz was dead wrong from beginning to end.He had nothing to do with Norman’s demise. AIPAC probably doesn’t know who he is.You sound like an idiot mullah.No offense.

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    If you want to consider someone who squandered true brilliance and principle–he had both–Dershowitz is your man. But that was when his primary interest was justice and Constitution. The young Dershowitz–his work, his writings–against those Norman could never, will never stand up. But that was not the man, Norman met.It’s odd how some people seem to disintegrate as they get older. I had only known him through his writing and when he suddenly emerged in the public glare, he was not the person he evidently was.

  • yasseryousufi

    Farnaz, that was such a typical Zionist response. All these people I named aren’t idiots. They put their bread and butter on stakes exposing the clutches of Zionism and Israeli Lobbies in America. One has to be blind not to see that the US foreign policy is slave to the whims of Israelis. Just yesterday US vetoed a resolution in favor of Israel that had 14 yes votes out 15 in the UN Security Council. The rest of the world isn’t as stupid as American people, and even they are catching up.

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    yasser, you mullah. You only named two people. You need to keep your postings straight in your Islamist head. Try blogging to one person at a time. That is more than enough for you.You probably didn’t notice that I agreed with you about Dershowitz and Norman. But with me, he had a different problem Dershowitz was wrong. He couldn’t win and he came off like a fool.With me, he had several issues to debate and he couldn’t hold his own.Try to remember who you are blogging to.

  • yasseryousufi

    LOL….whats the reading on the Richter Scale in New York? Its never too hard to stir you up. and you are dead wrong in saying that debate had nothing to do with AIPAC and Zionism. Look it up again. They discussed Israel and Palestine at great lengths in that debate. Almost everyone who is familiar with the modus operandi of AIPAC knows how they have mercilessly attacked from all sides and neutralized all their previous targets. Btw I was actually serious when I said I am looking forward to seeing that debate between you and Prof. Finkelstein.

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    Then I must be thinking of another debate. I can’t imagine Dershowitz would have debated him twice, but who knows.Yes, I think you will like the tape. But it had nothing to do with Israel/Palestine.

  • WmarkW

    Even when I read multicultural Muslims like Eboo and Pamela, I’m struck by how little effort is put into saying “Let’s de-mythologize the Quran.” Is there a Muslim equivalent of Bart Ehrman, Israel Finkelstein or John Shelby Spong? Is anyone trying to explain “The Quran is a piece of human literature, produced at a particular time and place. We should be trying to understand what the people’s needs were that wrote this.”It’s as if all Islam is a Christian “family” bookstore — here is the literal Word of God and your rules for obeying it.As Spong said, it’s an embarassment that the type of business called a Christian bookstore is full of prejudiced attitudes, non-nurturing parenting advice and poor quality historical scholarship. There has to be an interpretation of the life of Muhammed somewhere between prostrate genuflection and Robert Spencer.

  • yasseryousufi

    Farnaz,I dont really have a dog in this fight between two American Professors but believe me for a neutral its not hard see who was the guilty party in that debate. To say Israel never torchers nor kills innocents!!! and then quote IDF sources as proof, that alone should render the person irrelevant on the subject for life regardless of him being a Harvard Professor. I have seen Finkelstein debate many other Israelis since then and to me he always comes out on top. So I will continue to hold him in the highest esteem until provided the proof to believe otherwise. But that’s just me and this thread is not about Israel-Palestine. I am hoping some day Pamela Taylor will read one of my posts and clear up the issues I have brought up so many times.

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    Yasser,I’m not getting into the IDF, but I did watch the debate and Dershowitz didn’t say what you accuse him of.As I said earlier, I do NOT approve of what Dershowitz did with his book, and I look neither to him nor to Finkelstein for informtaion on Israel.However, Dershowtiz did not plagiarize, and, in fact, warned the hubristic Norman more than once about his use of terms. Norman was and is far too arrogant for his own good. He’s not stupid, but he’s not Dershowitz, either. Dershowtiz was appointed to Harvard Law when he was twenty-five and tenured at twenty-eight.Norman’s ridiculous petty jealousy shimmered forth, as did his sloppiness. The unfortunate thing is that he was right, right in every way that counts. Why Dershowitz ever wrote his “book,” I’ll never know.Why Norm can’t control himself is easy to figure out. As for me, I have no favorite Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or B’hai professor, although there are some I very much admire.Then, too, there are atheists whose work I’ve enjoyed. I.B. Singer’s insistence that spirits or the like had hidden his passport for a year endeared him to me, but that is another matter.

  • yasseryousufi

    “Why Norm can’t control himself is easy to figure out.”I will have to agree with that. But I doubt any of it was due to the jealousy he felt towards Dershowitz being at Harvard. Finkelstein is the son of two actual holocaust survivors from Poland. His doctoral thesis was on Zionism and his primary field of research is the “Holocaust Industry” for that he has recieved a lot of flak from Zionists like Dershowitz. The fact that after Dershowitz was soundly thrashed in that debate he actually wrote a letter to DePaul University and lobbied to get Finkelstein’s tenure denied, tells you all about the character of the man. If he had any, he would actually have gone ahead with legal proceedings that he warned of several times during the interview. Considering he is a Scholar of Law primarily, I think he would have realized he didn’t have much of case against Norman when he called him a “fraud” and his book “plagiarized” with proof. So he took the easier b*tchy route, and utilized his zionist connections.Depaul promptly complied with Dershowitz demand even though majority of the faculty objected to this. He is now without a job since. On the top of that he’s branded a self hating Jew by Dershowitz and his fellow Zionists. That’s enough to drive any sane person nuts. Just because a person is bitter doesn’t always mean he is wrong. I can cite of the best minds on the planet as proof of that.

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    I think Dershowitz would have been guilty of overkill had he gone ahead and sued Norm. As for lobbying DePaul, he was quite within his rights to do so, but his letter was not the reason for Norm’s not getting tenure there or anywhere else.I know all about Norm’s parents and deeply regret his Oedipal confusion. He’s not the first nor will he be the last to seek his father’s death.The HOlocaust Industry was and is a moral mess that I’m not going to go into now. If we ever do meet, I will give you a copy of an article I penned not too long ago.One of my favorite Norman remarks of the debate with Dershowitz concerns Germany being the “most moral of nations,” at present. Tell that to the Turks among others. But the ad homs, I think, are what sabotaged him. He interspersed page numbers with hysteria, had done so before and did so again.A brat and an egotist, his ability doesn’t measure up to his arrogance. Dershowitz could have done much more with and to him than he did. Norm is one very lucky man in some ways. Sometimes, it’s a good idea to know whom you are taking aim at.Still, although he never was ivy league material, he could have had a reasonably distinguished academic career. As for Zionists, the only reason prominent Zionists even know who he is goes to his debates with one or two extraordinary Israeli professors. He is a self-hating Jew. The label is apt.Now, Hirsi, on the other hand, is no self-hating Muslim. The list of non self-hating Muslims is at least as long as that of non self-hating Jews.Islamists, of course, would disagree on whether or not the non is apt–in some cases.I leave you to NOrm. Recommend a book: Cruelty in the Arab World.

  • yasseryousufi

    Farnaz,I think we can agree to disagree on Norman. To me he is a man of honor. The same could scarcely be said about Dershowitz. I have no doubt that if he had a case he would definitely have sued Norman. Writing b*tchy letters to his employers and and lobbying to get him thrown out was infact the “overkill”.But you could not be more off the mark with your Hirsi Ali comparison. She is just a tool who doesn’t have a brain of her own. No one in his right mind would ever consider her a scholar nor has she has a scholarly work to her credit. She was a nobody before her anti-islamic rants, now she has both fame and fortune and rubs shoulders with some of the best known islamophobes and Neocons of the world. Self Hating Jew or not, Finkelstein’s crime is only that he exposes Israel and Zionism, how that translates into hatred of Judaism or Jewish people I do not know. Hirsi Ali’s agenda on the other hand is well documented.

  • Farnaz2Mansouri21

    Yasser,HIrsi is far from alone. I would imagine that if I gave you a list of all those who, to use your word, “expose” the criminal nature of Islam as it is widely practiced, with accompanying documentation, we would have to “agree to disagree.”Norman exposes himself and his agenda in another discussion on YouTube with one of the architects of Oslo. I’ll try to find the link. He’s sloppy, as I have said.I do believe that Dershowitz has no defense with his “book,” with respect to what I understand to be acceptable scholarship. However, he DID NOT plagiarize, suffered not a whit from Norman’s false accusations, and could have sued since he was falsely accused, publicly.Moreover, Dershowtiz warned him repeatedly. Frankly, evening knowing NOrm, I could not believe he did not cease and desist.He, personally, has exposed nothing. He has quoted one set of authors to disprove another. His use of archival sources is messy as the correction made by the Israeli professor and diplomat demonstrated.We will agree to disagree, then. If you’d like I’ll provide some links by Muslims who have a take on Israel and Zionism rather different from your own.But, now, I would like to know how things are in Pakistan. I’m making one last effort to go and all I keep hearing back is pointing me in the direction of next January.This gets curiouser and curiouser.

  • wiki-truth

    To: CREDIT “JJ”,

  • yasseryousufi

    Farnaz,The treatment of Norman by the Zionist lobby is far from an isolated case. As a woman of conscience and someone familiar with this subject you would be aware that character assassination of anyone who criticizes the aparthied policies of Israel (not Jewish people) to such an extent as to make him an example for others, is the weapon of choice for the lobby. That’s my biggest argument against Hirsi Ali and her fellows (who foment hatred of muslim people not just policies of Islamic countries) that they have a huge incentive for doing what they do, whereas for Finkelstein and Co, they are condemned to live lives of obscurity and hardships. Pakistan, I dont know what to say….its usually changing gear from one crises to another. Currently its the case of US (mercenary) Diplomat which I am sure you’d be familiar with by now. Obama I believe had a Colin Powell moment when he claimed before the world that the american was a diplomat only to be proved a liar when it came out that he was indeed a contracted blackwater operative. So the mood is pretty bad here. But whether that translates into anti-americanism for american people I dont know. Just this friday after the prayers there was a demonstration out side the mosque I go to by JI. And I saw a couple of white girls with kaffiyeh around their necks and cameras. When the crowd saw them they cheered and actually looked happy. They were with a Pakistani guy who was translating what was being said. So I don’t know really…….your friends would be probably in a better position to tell you whether its safe to come.

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