‘It gets better’ when we truly understand what Bible says about gays

By Bishop Gene Robinson There is so much wrong with Tony Perkins’ recent Guest Voices post, published by On Faith … Continued

By Bishop Gene Robinson

There is so much wrong with Tony Perkins’ recent Guest Voices post, published by On Faith with the title “Christian compassion requires the truth about homosexuality.” The “Christian compassion” touted in the headline is faux compassion at best. It offers virtually nothing to ease the fears and self-loathing experienced by gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender teenagers who contemplate choosing suicide over a life they are told is condemned to unhappiness, loneliness and despair. Indeed, Mr. Perkins’ comments only go to support the attitudes held by the bullies who drove gay teens around the country to make that choice.

However, as a Bishop of the Church, and a trained theologian, let me focus on Mr. Perkins’ flawed reasoning and inadequate exegesis in quoting scripture to bolster his arguments. He cites the story about the woman caught in adultery, whom Jesus admonishes, “Go and sin no more.” In this approximation of the “love the sinner, hate the sin” approach, the religious right tries to sound pastoral, while violating the true meaning of this passage.

The sin referred to in this passage is intimate sexual relationships outside the bonds of marriage. Indeed adultery, by definition, is a violation of the vows taken in marriage by one or both partners. Jesus rightly tells this woman never again to engage in such violation of those vows.

But it is just as important what Jesus did NOT say: “Go and never have sex again.” Had he done so, this scripture might be relevant. But he did not. The sin was not intercourse, but the context within which it occurred.

If the religious right wants to argue that the context for same gender intimate relationships is important, then they should join the fight for same gender marriage, helping provide the trustworthy, responsible and mutual context for all intimate sexual relationships. Not to provide such a context only supports the culture of promiscuity the religious right rails against.

Similarly, had Jesus asked the woman to “stop being a woman,” she would not have been able to obey, since it is who she is, not just what she does. Being homosexual is who we are, not just what we do. The 13-year-olds who committed suicide may never have acted on their sexual impulses, but they were gay, and they knew it. And all the “love the sinner, hate the sin” rhetoric would never make them feel okay about being gay. They could no more stop being gay than fly to the moon. This nuance, put forward by Mr. Perkins, is lost on the gay 13-year-old struggling to come to terms with who he is, as it is on his bulliers.

Such rhetoric serves as a support for those who would bully and commit violence against gay and lesbian people. For the religious right to deny their complicity in this bullying and violence is absurd. They may claim, as Mr. Perkins does, that they never meant to support such bullying. This is disingenuous at best, and he and his conservative religionists need to be held accountable. When someone in California, through their careless actions, starts a wildfire that destroys homes, they are held accountable for their actions – despite their claims that they never meant to cause a raging wildfire. When the religious right exports their condemnation of gay people to Uganda, they must be held accountable for the draconian “kill the gays” legislation that results, despite their protestations that that’s not what they meant. And when their hateful rhetoric gives support and permission for bullies to make the lives of young gay kids miserable, they must be held accountable for the results of their words and actions.

Mr. Perkins citing of the “woman caught in adultery” passage of scripture simply does not apply here. What does apply is the Christian value of respect for the dignity of every human being. What does apply is the right and responsible support by religious people and institutions for the context of marriage (for all) in which intimate sexual relationships should occur. A right reading of scripture would urge Mr. Perkins to support young men and women to view themselves as the beloved children of God that they are, worthy of respect and protected from the unwarranted harassment and intimidation now being perpetrated against them.

The Rt. Rev. V. Gene Robinson is the Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire and Senior Fellow at the Center for American Progress.

  • BillJ4321

    I would warn religious individuals to use extreme caution in carrying out these acts of brutalization and degradation against gay citizens and using God’s name to justify it.For if what religious folks believe is true, and if we all will stand before God one day to be judged, and when God asks those who presented themselves to the world as people of God why they abused, degraded, dehumanized and brutalized HIS gay children, what will they tell him? That they did those things in his name to HONOR him?

  • Secular

    Mr. Gene Robinson come on please do not try to find justification for homosexuality in any scripture. It is tortured and frankly it is very very condescending. Leave the scripture on the dust heap of history along with your Al-Chemistry text books. Just argue on its merits, that is it is none of the homophobes’ business and science.

  • GiveMeThat

    Putting the label of “marriage” on a same-sex relationship merely transfers the sin to the institution and the individuals involved. The apostate denomination is awash in heresy – not just about homosexuality. It is collapsing as true Christians flee. From Genesis to the Revelations of John, there is only one proper setting for sexual relations – that of, heterosexual marriage (yes, I know that is redundant). All Christian denominations that try to fudge this are meeting the same end.

  • shadow_man

    The National Library of Medicine pubs confirm that sexual orientation is natural, biologically induced in the first trimester of pregnancy, morally neutral, immutable, neither contagious nor learned, bearing no relation to an individuals ability to form deep and lasting relationships, to parent children, to work or to contribute to society.From the American Psychological Association: homosexuality is normal; homosexual relationships are normal.The American Academy of Pediatrics, American Psychological Asociation and American Psychiatric Asociation have endorsed civil marriage for same-sex couples because marriage strengthens mental and physical health and longevity of couples, and provides greater legal and financial security for children, parents and seniors.America’s premier child/mental health associations endorse marriage equality.

  • shadow_man

    This was taken from another poster that shows why we need to legalize gay marriage. If you don’t feel for this person after reading it, you simply aren’t human.”I am not sure what our President thinks of this dicission but coming from a poor family and knowing what discrimination is all about I would assume he would not care if “Gays” have equal rights. The whole reason why they are asking for rights to be considered married is from the same reason why I would be for it. My own life partner commited suicide in our home with a gun to his heart. After a 28 year union I was deprived to even go his funeral. We had two plots next to each other. But because we did not have a marriage cirtificate “(Legal Document)” of our union his mother had him cremated and his ashes taken back to Missouri where we came from. That is only one example how painful it is. His suicide tramatized me so much and her disregard for my feelings only added to my heartach. That happened on March 21 of 2007 and I still cannot type this without crying for the trauma I have to endure each day. Oh did I mention I am in an electric wheelchair for life? Yes I am and it is very diffacult to find another mate when you are 58 and in a wheelchair. “

  • WmarkW

    When I was 14, a sometime-friend committed suicide because he was going to get in trouble with his father over a repeated trespassing incident (a business owner was going to tell his father that he had violated this property for the umpteenth time). That a young life was ended over something that trivial serves to me as a constant reminder that most youth have little perspective of where their problems rank compared to the whole world, and that our metaphorical “I’ll die if…” needs to be put in its proper place.I’m somewhat skeptical about whether this mini-epidemic of teen suicides is truly gay-related, or just a coincidence of timing about a too-common occurence. LOTS of teens need to understand that “it gets better” and that those popular football jocks and large-breasted cheerleaders won’t necessarily (or even likely) lead the happiest complete lives.I suspect most suicidal gay teens can be described as “wimpy guys”; and like the shooters at Columbine, would be at the bottom of the school popularity poll. We all know that to kids, time marches slowly. We need a way to show them that the rewards for just being a good person and sticking to it are within reach.

  • GiveMeThat

    It is Gene Robinson that tries to justify homosexuality by his blatant twisting of the obvious condemnation of homosexuality in the Bible. It is his ludicrous premise that the Bible does NOT condemn homosexuality when it clearly does.Another completely false premise in the essay: “if only we were more tolerant, GLBTQ youth wouldn’t commit suicide.” This is easily shown to be be false. If it were true, the high suicide rate among youth who engage in same sex activity would be less in “tolerant” societies and this is not the case. Lastly, we all should be disturbed by Gene Robinson reprehensibly using the suicide to push for the political agenda of “gay marriage”. Simply revolting. If New Jersey had been one of those handful of states where there is “gay marriage”, would that have prevented the young man from visiting hard core pornographic web sites and engaging in gay hookup sex? These activities (homosexual or heterosexual) can’t be good for eighteen year old’s mental well being.

  • Sajanas

    Interesting fact: the “go and sin no more” story about Jesus in John, it is a later day addition. Something put in, probably from gnostic sources in the 400s, and it is not present in earlier Greek and Latin texts. So many arguments being built on something that is not even a third hand version of what Jesus said, but rather a story about what someone wanted Jesus to have said. Empathy and compassion don’t need biblical quotes to be justified, since the Bible itself is a flimsy piece of work.

  • dbanyan

    “you can’t handle the truth!”. there isn’t enough room here to show-off all my “links” versus all of your links to prove sci-fi theory…i am an alcoholic… want to see some links that prove it, or how i am predisposed to it genitically?i am compulsive…not just by nature, but its in my genes – really. i got links to prove it………….. but so do you.Please send me a large check to help me get through the days ahead as I try real hard not to be a compulsive, alcoholic. Am I being condescending – YES! But while my story is validated by many addicts (and doctors), it is not a justification for my behaviour. God’s word is important to those who seek to know Him and His character. It is BLATANTLY obvious when a person uses God as a cover for sin… BLATANT. Sad entertainment. Take off the robe sir, you are mocking the Creator – and worse, you are teaching others to do the same.

  • Secular

    “”you can’t handle the truth!”. there isn’t enough room here to show-off all my “links” versus all of your links to prove sci-fi theory…i am an alcoholic… want to see some links that prove it, or how i am predisposed to it genitically?i am compulsive…not just by nature, but its in my genes – really. i got links to prove it………….. but so do you.Please send me a large check to help me get through the days ahead as I try real hard not to be a compulsive, alcoholic. Am I being condescending – YES!”No, you are not being condescending at all. You are being an ASS and bully, like most of your ilk.Then you go on to bloviate, “But while my story is validated by many addicts (and doctors), it is not a justification for my behaviour”.You are for the first time correct as far as that there is no justification. As an alcoholic you are not only dysfunctional but are also a menace to the society at large. However, a gay or lesbian is not necessarily dysfunctional nor a menace to he society.Then you get even better (here I am condescending) “God’s word is important to those who seek to know Him and His character. It is BLATANTLY obvious when a person uses God as a cover for sin… BLATANT.” Who the hell is god? Have you seen her? That is the problem with your ilk, before you get started with sky-daddy’s words you have many a obstacles to pass successfully. Until keep those bloviations aside. besides that unholy scripture you are talking about was written by bronze age ignoramuses, who did not know their asses from their elbows. So you want to legislate your version of the fairy tales. That is utter nonsense.then you go on “Sad entertainment. Take off the robe sir, you are mocking the Creator – and worse, you are teaching others to do the same.”

  • shadow_man

    Wmark: It seems you haven’t gone out much. The amount of harassment towards someone who is gay is tremendous. I’ve personally seen them beaten, things thrown at them, thrown out their house, etc no matter how “nice” they were. Any person under that amount of stress is likely to break under pressure and bigotry like that. And this was in California. It’s easy to talk the talk when you’re not gay and experiencing that type of hatred, but if the shoe were on the other foot, we’d ponder how you’d react.

  • shadow_man

    GiveMeThat: Notice how you could not prove any of his points wrong, nor refute any of my proof that homosexuality is not a sin. God created homosexuals, God loves them. But God hated hypocrites.

  • shadow_man

    dbanyan: Funny, where are these mysterious “links” God never said homosexuality is a sin, stop twisting his word to condone your bigotry. Also, it’s funny you mentioned alcoholism, which is completely irrelevant to gay marriage and homosexuality. The difference is, alcoholism is harmful. Homosexuality and gay marriage are not harmful nor are they wrong.

  • Raycol

    Bishop Robinson is wrong when he implies that Jesus would not tell a man caught having sex with another man “Go and sin no more”. As an observant Jew, Jesus would agree with the Leviticus prohibition on men having sex with men. He would therefore consider the ignoring of the prohibition as a sin.Nevertheless, the prohibition does not apply today. This is because it is based on the ancient cultural idea that a man should not be receptive like a woman in sex. The prohibition is therefore restricted to the ancient biblical cultures and does not apply now.

  • Sajanas

    @shadow_manAnd you can produce evidence in a Christian God that is conclusive? Because surely the world was not made in 6 days 6,000 years ago, there was no Flood, Exodus, Conquest of Canaan, Star of Bethleham, Slaughter of the Innocents and on and on and on.The proof for your idea of God, vs say, Poseidon or Odin, just isn’t there. So stop acting like we have to prove that homosexuality isn’t wrong within your narrow view of morality.

  • Sajanas

    @shadow_man

  • dbanyan

    Secular,”i am an alcoholic… want to see some links that prove it, or how i am predisposed to it genitically?””i am compulsive…not just by nature, but its in my genes – really.”maybe the parallel i was implying doesn’t resonate with you or your faith. but i will concede that even if a person is gay and cannot change that fact… that person is very capable to deny immoral sexual behaviour – and thereby avoid sinning against the God of the bible – and still be gay. and since you realize that my comment was based on my faith – AND – it was aimed at a person who is mocking my God, it is mis-placed aggression for you to attack my faith, or call me a bully (do you see the irony here?).i have never been a bigot, racist, or a bully. my anger toward the so-called “bishop” is justified. of course you can pick this apart because you don’t have faith in my God… will you degrade me further for this statement too?Thank you for the criticism though, as you have made me aware of how condescending my tone really was, and I am sorry if you were offended by it.

  • dbanyan

    ShadowMan,your assertion that i am “twisting His word” implies that you believe His word. if you do, then to what degree? if you don’t, then please assume that i do. and while straining to apply His truth to my own life – and knowing my own fallibility, i can only rely on Him for wisdom. not you, or any other man. so where i find that wisdom is through the revelation of Jesus Christ, which is revealed in the bible. i firmly believe this is the truth of God – and as a result of seeking to know who He is, i have found myself utterly contemptable before God on many fronts, thus realizing my own sinful nature and my need for a Saviour.however, your declaration that God doesn’t condemn the sin of sexual immorality (including homosexual sin) denies the very nature of God. His character is plainly revealed in the bible.Romans 1:26-27 is plainly clear about sexual immorality, but many would like to assert that this was applied to a certain group of people – read the whole chapter for the context. it is a revealing of God’s desire for His people to walk with Him and a decree of His intolerance for those who don’t – this topic has nothing to do with your intolerance or mine, but His intolerance. and truly, there is a list of warnings you will also agree with if you are willing to seek to know.this leaves us at good place. i’d be interested in hearing about your faith – we are in the “On Faith” forum, right?

  • Secular

    dbanyan you responded, “maybe the parallel i was implying doesn’t resonate with you or your faith. but i will concede that even if a person is gay and cannot change that fact… that person is very capable to deny immoral sexual behaviour – and thereby avoid sinning against the God of the bible – and still be gay”.I can be persuaded to your point of view in a very narrow sense. The narrow latitude is limited to whether they can call themselves Christian or not. In practical sense or even narrower sense that would be limited to the church the person is attending. I need to hasten to say that person’s sexual preferences, even assuming that it is entirely a preference, akin to I like blue you like green, is of no concern to me. I do not consider that it is an improper conduct at all, like for instance littering the street, is considered improper behavior. Just because it is written in an ancient text be it be NT, or OT, or Koran, or in Manu’s Laws. These are all written by ignoramuses compared to the accumulated knowledge of 21st century. Consequently those tomes are so factually incorrect in pretty much every truth claim they make about nature, that was not already common knowledge at the time of their authorship.You continued, “and since you realize that my comment was based on my faith – AND – it was aimed at a person who is mocking my God, it is mis-placed aggression for you to attack my faith, or call me a bully (do you see the irony here?)”.There is a presumption on your part that your faith ought to be respected for its own sake or as it is your faith. Your faith is your beliefs, and what obligation does the next person have to respect it or not mock it, any more than our tastes in Music or art. It is quite common place people to deride and mock various other tastes with impunity. Why is it that tastes in faith are supposed to be beyond such derision. What about the faith that is intrinsically different that one can demand such respect? Yet may I add, it is often some people of faith while demanding this for their own faith, deny even tolerance to other faiths.I take it at face value.

  • Secular

    Continued from belowdbanyan you then add, “my anger toward the so-called “bishop” is justified. of course you can pick this apart because you don’t have faith in my God… will you degrade me further for this statement too?”It is not my intention to degrade you at all. There are times when we all get carried away emotionally. I hope, I don’t get so carried away to degrade someone, but I will confess I have offended a few in my time, even condescended and mocked. But I have never wantonly degraded anyone, especially one who is not in public lime light such as a policy maker. That being said, I can understand, as I already concede in a private sense you may make your articles of faith a requirement within your faith, etc. But as public issue they should not be requirement for everyone whether they share your faith or not. From purely state issue your faith dogma has no right to be a guidance to such of us who do not subscribe to your faith. Regarding your admonishment of Mr. Robinson, is ok, though the a bit harsh. But then who am I to critique that, when I have been given to such hyperbole myself. Then you add, “Thank you for the criticism though, as you have made me aware of how condescending my tone really was, and I am sorry if you were offended by it.” Don’t worry about offending me. You have not in any deep sense or in any personal sense. When we write this kind of stuff is one needs to be aware that it is a two way street. That said, I strongly state Homosexuality should have no more public stricture than a guy getting turned on by petite girls or a gal going for tall boys. Posted by:

  • Secular

    “God’s word is important to those who seek to know Him and His character. It is BLATANTLY obvious when a person uses God as a cover for sin… BLATANT.Sad entertainment. Take off the robe sir, you are mocking the Creator – and worse, you are teaching others to do the same.”Posted by: dbanyan

  • crossingubadly

    The body Christ must understand that there is no such thing as a homosexual. We are all exposed to sinful and unnatural lusts in many forms (some are unfortunately more exposed than others). We either give in to these lusts or we do not. Homosexuality is just one of those forms. If the church would learn to speak the truth in love against all form of sexual immorality, rather than turning a blind eye to one, while abhorring another, then people wouldn’t feel the need to defend a sinful identity that God did not intend for them. That is the hard truth.The reason why homosexuality is so deceptive and dangerous is that it is one of the only sins that seeks to destroy you at the core. No one is going to stand up and be proud of killing, lying, stealing, pedophilia, addiction to porn, infidelity, backbiting, malice, or any host of wretched behavior. This is all about identity, ironically Christianity is also all about identity. God requires that we worship him in spirit and in truth. We however make a habit of placing our earthly identities ahead of our spiritual ones. When we do that, we are in essence worshiping ourselves while claiming Christ. Christianity is based on our recognition that the identity we received from the world is not the identity God designed for us. This is why Jesus said that unless one is “born again” he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. We proudly teach young men that being a “playa” is cool and you can still be a Christian; that defining yourself by the number of girls you have is fine as long as you believe in Christ. We allow the minds of young girls to become brainwashed by the worldly sex object mindset. We have sat idly by as pastors sleep around with the congregation. And now people who believe they are gay want validation and a pass for their sin as well. Doesn’t the Bible say “Let all those who name the name of Christ depart from iniquity”?We have all these people fighting so hard to protect a false identity. Don’t get it twisted my friends. The Bible says that if anyone does not have the spirit, then he is not his. The antichrist agenda is widespread, and the sabotage of the identity is the easiest way for people to be deceived. Who wants to admit that everything they ever believed about their identity is false? Do we have any concept of how much humility that requires? The homosexual agenda therefor has no place in the church. Once it is accepted, it is one of the hardest things for an individual to denounce.

  • shadow_man

    Sajanas: It’s ok ^_^ I’ll pretend that was directed at the other guy.

  • shadow_man

    dbanyan: Thank you for proving my point :) You mention Romans 1:26-1:27, while ignoring the rest of the text as well as the historical times. That’s what we call taking passages out of context. Let’s examine Romans when you don’t take it out of context:If taken out of context, this passage seems to condemn homosexuals. However, when Romans 1:26-27 is considered within the context of Romans 1:16 through Romans 2:16, the Scriptures clearly present a different teaching. Paul was writing to the church in Rome. The Roman church had become troubled by divisions related to spiritual pride. Paul was addressing the Christians in Rome and teaching about the pagans in Rome. After declaring the power of Christ’s gospel to save all, he pointed out that the religious people of Rome had refused to even acknowledge GOD as one of their many gods. They had turned their backs on the one true living God and worshiped handmade idols. Paul explained that as a result of their idolatry, every part of their lives had become corrupt and vile. Paul then told the Roman Christians that they were not to judge others. To judge others is to condemn yourself (Romans 2:1). Christians are to love others out of their brokenness and into the healing wholeness that is found in Jesus Christ. The Greek word Paul used, that has been translated in our Bibles as “natural/unnatural”, relates to that which is against one’s own inherent nature (i.e., heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts). It was also related to Paul’s concept of what was culturally acceptable. The same Greek word is used in I Cor. 11:14-15 in reference to correct hair length for men and women and in Gal. 2:15 in reference to Jews and Gentiles who were such by “nature.” Paul emphasized that IDOLATRY (not homosexuality) was the evil which resulted in temple prostitution, sadomasochism, and lack of regard for others. It would help if you knew what the culture was like back then. In those times, male-male intercourse was a result of idol worship. Back then, it was a common practice of cult priests and priestesses to submit to sexual acts with either gender as part of the worship of their deities. Therefore, such acts were considered sinful and debauchery. It would be the same if it were hetero people involved in cultic sex, prostitution or sexual abuse of minors.Now I’m pretty sure that two guys engaging in sex these days are NOT idol worshipers. In fact, 99% of the time, it is a physical act of love; just like any hetero couples.

  • shadow_man

    Arguments against interracial marriage 1947-1968. SOUND FAMILIAR?1.) Interracial marriage runs counter to God’s plan:2.) “The amalgamation of the races is not only unnatural, but is always”The purity of the public morals, the moral3.) Persons wishing to enter into interracial marriages come from the “dregs of4.) Allowing interracial marriages “necessarily involves the degradation” of

  • crossingubadly

    Shadow_ManThis is not so much about homosexuality, it is about Christianity and what it means to be a Christian. There are tons of heterosexual people sitting in church, singing songs, doing works, reading the Bible who are completely disconnected from God simply because they cannot bring themselves to be honest with God in relation to the condition of their heart and their necessity of a spiritual heart transplant. There are some so hurt by racism and oppression that racial equality through political activism becomes the forefront of their ministry rather than Christ. Anything that has the potential to steal our identity is very dangerous. That’s what i was saying in my first post.God is a spirit, and in order to truly worship him, we must become spiritual beings. We cannot do that if we place our earthly identities in front of our spiritual identities we received when we first repented of sin and professed Christ as King. “I have been crucified with Christ, therefore it is no longer I that live, but Christ who lives in me”.Gal 2:20.

  • dbanyan

    Secular,do you agree with the “bishop” or not? he is using Christianity as a cover… if he was making declarations of faith based on the Hindu religion, or any other religion, i wouldn’t be addressing him the same way – however, i would not shrink from my faith either.are you really on board with this guy or not?

  • dbanyan

    Shadowman, read it again (Romans 1). i’ve heard better interpretation on the History Channel version (and that’s usually pretty thin). …..and get a concordance.you will do well to consider the character of God, if you are a Christian. He reveals Himself over and over…and His character never changes. see for yourself.my guess is that you already know this but either you don’t worship Him, or you won’t submit to His authority (or both).and this is okay – IF you are not a christian. which leads me back to where we started … the “bishop” is using Christianity as a platform to encourage homosexuals that it is okay with God. He is guilty of mocking the God of the bible, period. as for your refuting scripture, if in fact you are a Christian, you will consider Corinthians 5:11 and be humbled… you see, its not the non-believers that Paul is addressing, its the ones that call themselves Christian (as it is in all his letters). as Christians, we are responsible to share His word correctly – you have distorted God’s word with babble from unworthy sources.if you reply that the reference to “immoral” doesn’t include homosexuality, then clearly you didn’t invest the time to search His word to truly understand the character(s) of God.i hope not to offend – and i too am fallible – please research and reply.

  • dbanyan

    Crossingubadly,thank you for sharing in this forum!

  • shadow_man

    crossingubadly: Proving you wrong on your views is not name-calling. You mentioned that you were Christian, so i will assume you have at one time or another voted on the issue of gay marriage or oppose it. If either of those are true, then yes, you display bigotry. Taking away the rights of others and forcing your beliefs is intolerant. Now onto your posts.In your second paragraph of your first post, you talk about identity. Most of us gay and lesbian people do not live solely for being gay and lesbians. Our identity is solidified like any other straight person, and that’s dependent on our personalities, lifestyles, beliefs, and hundreds of other things that make each and every one of us unique. Merely asking for equal rights is not part of our identity.The thing is, some of us would like to worship God. Yes, there are many gay and lesbian christian and other religious people, and numerous sects of religion that don’t see it as a sin. The people who are painting us with this “identity” are the christians and religions people themselves, painting this label as bad and immoral when it’s not. Every time this issue is brought up by religious people. So the people you want to talk in regards to your identity posts is your own people.

  • shadow_man

    dbanyan: “read it again (Romans 1). i’ve heard better interpretation on the History Channel version (and that’s usually pretty thin)……and get a concordance.”Notice how you completely ignored all of my points that proved you wrong :) This points to possible trolling, but let me show you why trolling fails on this subject ^_^For those of you that don’t know what a troll is, they basically are posters that take a side on any sensitive topic (religion, sexuality, etc) and post to rile up and anger other posters for their own satisfaction and fun. They usually dance around a central idea while ignoring all evidence (since their primary motive is to incite anger, not prove anything). Other troll behavior includes twisting your words out of context, name-calling, lying, or doing anything that may get a rise out of you.The best way to own a troll is to get under their skin or ignore them. When a troll realizes he can’t incite anger in people and or get a rise out of them, it irks him. They keep trying, but its fun watching them in desperation as they throw everything at you trying to get any kind of rise. They lose even more, because for each troll, it gives the pro gay marriage side the chance to spread facts and information about homosexuality, to get rid of ignorance. It’s a win/win situation for us. Remember, trolls can’t win unless they incite anger. Merely getting responses is not a successful troll, since anyone can do that. What makes trolling unique is the ability to incite anger, and without doing that, they become useless. So to all posters here, do prove them wrong with facts, but do not let them incite anger.

  • shadow_man

    dbanyan: Now onto some of your points :D”my guess is that you already know this but either you don’t worship Him, or you won’t submit to His authority (or both).”Twisting his words and claiming something sinful when it’s not is being very un-christian. People as yourself used to twist his words to condone slavery, the subjugation of women, keep racial segregation intact, and ban interracial marriage in the past. “and this is okay – IF you are not a christian. “This comments proves my point that you are picking and choosing what you want to believe in the Bible. Even if homosexuality were a sin (which it’s not as i proven below), by your logic, nobody can be a Christian because christians sin all the time. No human can possibly follow and obey every law in the book. I’m sure you are wearing mixed fabrics as we speak :)”He is guilty of mocking the God of the bible, period. “Many biblical scholars and historians have provided sufficient evidence that homosexuality is not a sin. You are also mocking God as we speak for wearing mixed fabrics, and probably eating shellfish last weekend.”as for your refuting scripture, if in fact you are a Christian, you will consider Corinthians 5:11 and be humbled…”You prove my point again :) Notice how you reference one line of scripture while ignoring the rest. Let us examine Corinthians in my next post above, and ill show you why the anti-view interpretation is simply laughable.

  • shadow_man

    “i hope not to offend – and i too am fallible – please research and reply. “I don’t need to research, i’ve done that many years ago, and provided enough evidence, links, and backup to support my position :) It is very clear that homosexuality is not a sin as i once again proven in my posts below ^_^

  • crossingubadly

    Shadow_man,Furthermore, the ‘biblical’ arguments you’ve put forth regarding this matter have been nothing short of egregious, but I am not surprised because spiritual things are spiritually discerned and you have spent so much time ‘proving’ your case that there’s little room for the spirit of God.Your biblical logic has made it abundantly clear that it would be a waste of time to admit scripture into this discussion. Every non-pagan culture that acknowledges a god views homosexuality with virulent disgust. The reason for that is because God wrote his moral law on the hearts of humanity. Sin corrupted the heart and darkened our understanding in many areas, but there is hope in Christ if we let go. We don’t need the Bible, Quran or any other book to decipher this one. It is one of the signs of carnal pagan worship. Men and women were made in God’s image, and his character is revealed in both sexes, perfectly complimenting each other, which is why there is continually a greater understanding of who God is when a man and a woman are joined in marriage under God’s blessing, and an even greater understanding when they join to form a child. Our understanding of love(God) increases immeasurably when we are blessed with a child. An enlightenment that a homosexual union can never comprehend or duplicate, because it is not of our Creator.

  • dbanyan

    Crossingubadly, your last reply resonates with my heart about God’s word. again, thank you for sharing the truth. although God doesn’t need defending, you and i are compelled to respond. your response is well spoken. i just finished another reply to shadowman that repeats my assertion that both he and the “bishop” are mocking God with their affiliation with our faith as Christian – and when i was finished, a message appeared that it was being held for approval by the blog’s owner. i’m not sure what that means (censorship maybe?).God’s peace to you!

  • shadow_man

    dbanyan: Don’t think i don’t know about multiple names ^_^ Your trolling continues to fail miserably :D

  • crossingubadly

    dbanyan,My dear friend Shadow_man,Not to be pedantic or anything, but the word is “egregious”. But anyway: Its ok. I’m fine with your stance. My posts are more for others to decide for themselves who is speaking with understanding and who is not. God’s sheep know his voice.

  • SODDI

    Christians are vile.

  • shadow_man

    “Would you attempt to teach calculus to a person who refutes the fact that 1 + 1 = 2?”Ahhh, rather than addressing my points which prove that homosexuality is not a sin, you try to do personal attacks once again, which is further confirmation of your trolling which is failing miserably :)”There is absolutely no point in attempting to use the bible to “prove” anything”So you’re saying you’re ignoring what’s in the Bible, yet you’re trying to use the Bible for your views of what God says. Lol, another argument that is devoid of logic.”Its ok. I’m fine with your stance. My posts are more for others to decide for themselves who is speaking with understanding and who is not. God’s sheep know his voice.”You basically said that we should not use the Bible (God’s words) for God’s views. You also did not refute any of my statements which prove homosexuality is not a sin. It’s very easy to see that not only have you lost the argument, but lose the very little credibility you had left :)