When hatred is lethal

Seth Walsh, 13, of Tehachapi Calif., hanged himself. Billy Lucas, 15, of Greensburg, Ind., also hanged himself. Asher Brown, 13, … Continued

Seth Walsh, 13, of Tehachapi Calif., hanged himself.
Billy Lucas
, 15, of Greensburg, Ind., also hanged himself. Asher Brown, 13, of Houston, shot himself in the head. Tyler Clementi, 18, a freshman at Rutgers, jumped off the George Washington Bridge.

All four committed suicide in September. Four young lives made unbearable by taunting. A senseless waste of life. Senseless sorrow for four families.

The common thread in these tragedies is bullying, particularly bullying because of the boys’ actual or perceived sexual orientation. It is past time we, as a community, said enough is enough. While calls are going out for schools to clamp down on bullying behavior, that is far from sufficient. Bullying, while it must be stopped, is just the symptom of a deeper malaise — hatred of people simply because they are different, because you disagree with their beliefs, their lifestyle, or you dislike some aspect of their identity (race, gender, sexual orientation, etc).

This weekend, hundreds of Americans are planning to march in Washington D.C. to voice their support for a nation based not on divisiveness but on unity. Their mission statement reads, “Our national identity is rooted in the ideal that all people – regardless of race, class, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, heritage or ability – should have the opportunity to fulfill their potential.”

This is not just a progressive or Democratic mission. Supporters include groups who represent a multitude of faith traditions, races and ethnicities, professions, gender and sexual orientation.

For the Muslim groups in that list of supporters, for my friends and acquaintances who are planning to attend the march (and those who aren’t), I challenge you to take some time this weekend to think about how Muslims — not the extreme fringe who have turned to violence and terrorism, but mainstream Muslims — contribute to the problem, how they perpetuate intolerance and hatred.

How many of our mosques are welcoming places where gay Muslims would feel comfortable coming to worship God in the community of fellow believers? How many of our mosques are places where women — all women, not just those who believe in segregation — feel they are valued and that they have a place that serves their spiritual needs? How many of our community centers are welcoming of people from different races and ethnicities? Of people from different understandings of Islam, whether that be Sunni and Shii, or progressive, liberal, conservative, Ahmedi, Ismaili, or whatever else. How many of our mosques are places where non-Muslims are greeted as fellow children of God, even if they are atheists or Jews?

After you think about that, I challenge you to ask the same questions about the mosque you attend most frequently. In particular, in light of this rash of suicides, I ask you to think about gay Muslims, and how they would fare at your mosque, because of all these groups, gay Muslims are the most likely to face discrimination, belittling comments even sermons against their identity at Muslim houses of worship. More, don’t just think about whether your mosque is actually a place where diversity is embraced and celebrated, but do something to make that place safer, more comfortable and more welcoming for the people you don’t see attending.

Muhammad taught that we should not deter people from coming to the mosque — whether it was women, or the ignorant bedouin who urinated in the corner of the prayer area. His family was close friends with a gay man. His muezzin was a freed black slave. Muhammad did not turn people away for any reason, nor should we. Equally important, if we preach tolerance and acceptance to the American people, we must live by those values in our own houses of worship, in our own communities. To do anything less is hypocrisy.

  • WmarkW

    “I challenge you to take some time this weekend to think about how Muslims — not the extreme fringe who have turned to violence and terrorism, but mainstream Muslims — contribute to the problem, how they perpetuate intolerance and hatred. “Excellent! Usually Pamela’s and Eboo’s columns about intolerance make me want to get tested for dyslexia.

  • AKafir

    KoK1: “from my understanding, a person can be a gay Egyptian or Saudi or Indonesian, but a gay muslim is an oxymoron”What to do with all those who call themselves muslims and have homosexual relations? There are millions of those across the muslim lands. It is also rampant in Afghanistan:

  • Kingofkings1

    So what’s the problem with gay catholic priests? Why did the CEO of the catholic church with the fancy attire say we shouldn’t have gay priests?

  • Kingofkings1

    A muslim listens to God’s commandments as noted in the quran and from prophet Muhammad’s examples – both of which disallow homosexuality. So you cannot be a muslim and homosexual at the same time. You can be muslim and have homosexual urges. So what should one do if he is muslim and have homosexual urges? He should prioritize which is more important to him, i.e. succumb to his urges, or succumb to God’s will, and pray that God gives him strength to overcome his urges, or leave the muslim faith and join another religion that accepts his practices. If an individual is a US ciizen and has urges to murder, it would be difficult to say that he is being an acceptable citizen if he continues to commit murders

  • FarnazMansouri2

    Pamela,Congratulations on the Justice and forthrightness of your essay. The plight of gay Muslim youth in the West is barbaric, and it is a matter on which discussion has just begun in the Muslim community. Enlightened Muslims committed to their understanding of Islamic Justice have insisted that the discussion begin.Gay Muslim young people attempt every imaginable horror upon themselves, distort who they are to conceal and alter their very nature. They do not risk public beheading as in Saudi Arabia, imprisonment, torture, and worse as they do in Egypt and Pakistan, flogging, etc., but that is about it.Christianity, Judaism, and Hinduism have a long way to go on this issue, but the three religions are making some progress. I suspect that Islam will, too.Thank you for your article.Farnaz

  • AKafir

    KoK1:”A muslim listens to God’s commandments as noted in the quran and from prophet Muhammad’s examples – both of which disallow homosexuality.”Religions have a one dimensional view of “humans” and how their emotional and sexual life unfolds. Religions are stuck in the period of their revelations. Science is barely beginning to acquire the tools that allows us to study these aspects of human nature. And it is complex to say the least. Homosexuality is absolutely rampant in the muslim countries. Anyone who has travelled through the middle east, pakistan, afghansitan can attest to it. Some recent cases from my country:A few days ago, an I-8 seminary mullah allegedly sodomized one of his 10-year-old pupils. The mullah threatened to kill the child if he told anyone about the incident.On his hospital bed last week, 16-year-old Abid Tanoli sat listless and alone, half of his body covered by burns that all but destroyed both his eyes and left his face horribly disfigured.The teenager talked, with difficulty, of how his life had been destroyed since the fateful day in June 2002 when he refused to have sex with his teacher at a religious school in Pakistan.The ideal candidate for child molester in Pakistan, other than the pedophiles, would be someone not married. The only reason why that person would abuse children is because he has no other excess to any kind of sex. Dating is not allowed in Islam, although those who abuse kids won’t care much about what Islam has to say about dating, but still it will be very hard for them to find girls to have sexual contact. Children are the easiest prey for people like this.These people abuse kids with no reluctance whatsoever, ….

  • claudiabroome

    Pamela, Thank you for this post. You hit the nail on the head! Hatred can be lethal but the reality is that hatred always inflicts pain. History has told the story of all kinds of hatred and what has happened because of it. We are taught that people like Hitler were mentally ill. We learned about the destruction and brutality that he and people like him inflicted. So why is the hatred that is surfacing now any different?We hear talk about stopping bullies and everyone seems to agree that we need to step up to the plate and change the system so that the incidences of bullying decline. The scary part is that I am seeing that people go quiet when bullying has some connection with a gay issue. I just don’t get it. All religions teach some form of The Golden Rule. In my opinion, what seems to be happening is that many people believe that The Golden Rule just doesn’t apply to gay people.My heart breaks for all of the people who are tormented by hatred. Each of us has to take responsibility for being approachable, accepting and tolerant of all kinds of differences. Each of us needs to set the example to our children in order to show them that hatred of any kind is a self destructive cancer. I work with special needs kids and I help them grow in self esteem. I am so frustrated because some of the very people who are supporting my work, stop their support when the issue of being gay comes into play.Being supportive of people with differences means that you are supportive of people with differences…period! Differences include people who are gay right?Claudia Broome | Inspiring Special Needs Children

  • AKafir

    I think I finally understand why a muslim cannot be gay.Imam Bukhari: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “When an adulterer commits illegal sexual intercourse, then he is not a believer at the time he is doing it; and when somebody drinks an alcoholic drink, then he is not believer at the time of drinking, and when a thief steals, he is not a believer at the time when he is stealing; and when a robber robs and the people look at him, then he is not a believer at the time of doing it.” Abu Huraira in another narration, narrated the same from the Prophet with the exclusion of robbery. Ah, I finally get it. A “muslim” can do no wrong by definition. His life is just filled with these temporal gaps when he is just not a “muslim”. Unfortunately for the kafirs though, it is not wrong for a muslim to kill a kafir.

  • AKafir

    Claudiabroom:I hate to correct you on an assumption:”I just don’t get it. All religions teach some form of The Golden Rule.”Not correct. Islam’s “Golden Rule” does not include non-muslims, but it is directed specifically for one muslims towards other muslims. Kafirs are excluded from that consideration.

  • kgodmom1

    I’m a teacher and openly gay. I came out when I assisted with starting a gay/straight alliance for students. Since that time I have been called names,cussed at, yelled at and harrassed not just by students but also by teachers and paraprofessionals while administrators pretend they don’t hear whats being said. I went to the Ohio Civil Rights Commission only to be told I’m not on the list of those protected by anti-discrimination laws. How can we as educators expect students to change when teachers and administrators bully teachers infront of or including students in the unhealthy activity? I have been told that this is common practice to force someone to quit or transfer to another school. I also feel alone but I am not willing to do anything drastic. I am waging a personal fight to just keep my job and expose the harrassment and psychological/verbal abuse that is permitted and encouraged.

  • Kingofkings1

    Ms Taylor,Because the catholic church disallows gay men to be priests doesn’t mean the catholic church hates gays.Muslims are supposed to be vicegerents of God on earth, or modern day prophets. Do you have double standards as far as catholics and muslims are concerned?

  • FarnazMansouri2

    kgodmom1:Re: Your postIt is true, of course, that Oklahoma does not have laws protecting anti-gay discrimination in the workplace. However, if I’m not mistaken, gay Oklahomans have won discrimination cases based on Federal Law.You might want to visit the local Department of Labor Office.

  • abrahamhab1

    Someone pontificated thus:

  • halozcel2

    *How many of our mosques are welcoming places where Gay Muslims would feel comfortable*Dear Panelist,Dear Protestant Julianna/Poster Jihadist,Two Indonesian women scourged by muslims for selling Rice in Ramadan Month.God is Most Compassionate;God of Islam hates 80 percent of World Population.Have a great day

  • abrahamhab1

    “God is Most Compassionate, Most Merciful, Most Just, Most Wise.”If the God that is described above is Allah of the Quran then were the evidence in that book that confirm those traits? Allah of the Quran sounds more like a sex obsessed, violent, intolerant and crude desert warlord.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Kingofkings1 You are a bigot, pure and simple, who, like your Christian brothers, exploit your very own religion to justify your own personal hatred of gay people. Shame on you!You are EXACTLY what is wrong with religion.

  • AKafir

    Jihadist:See how moderate and tolerant the Indonesian Islam (that you keep touting) is:

  • mono1

    when compassion cut sharper.enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong is not only one of the pillars of islam but also one of the advantage correction system of islam.islam make sure that the society is clean and mannered not running like animals jumping and screwing each other under the banner of diversity and under the banner of freedom.spreading proper information is part of the compassion ,mannering people is part of compasion,a primitive desert man came from the deep desert does not know better came to the majsid (moseque)( they used to build moseque out of logs and trees and carpeted by nothing except sand)the primitive man felt the urge to urinate so the man who doesnot know better took his meat out and started to urinate,the merceifull messenger told the people to leave the man alone and let him finish his urine and do not terror the man,the messenger told the man,look man ,you canot urinate in the spot where you worship your god this places is to remain clean and pure,the man felt safe after terrorized and out of joy he said oh ALAHA have mercey on none but me and Mohamed,

  • AKafir

    Mono1: “the messenger told the man,look man ,you canot urinate in the spot where you worship your god this places is to remain clean and pure,”Is that why non-muslims, 80% of mankind, are not allowed into mecca?

  • Secular

    KingofKings1 said, “A muslim listens to God’s commandments as noted in the quran and from prophet Muhammad’s examples – both of which disallow homosexuality. . . . pray that God gives him strength to overcome his urges, or leave the muslim faith and join another religion that accepts his practices”. Now isn’t apostasy punishable by stoning? So if you are gay then logically you must die. But if you are too squeamish about stoning, you have to commit suicide may be? But then isn’t that prohibited in Islam. So if you are Squeamish gay muslim you are in one heck of a quandary aren’t you? Is there any guidance for this squeamish gay mulim in the Koran. Can someone help me out, here? Kok1, Akafir, Jihadist, AbrhamHab1

  • heartwg


  • DanielintheLionsDen

    MonoYou appear to be a quite ignorant bigot.With each post, you just dig yourself into a deeper and deeper hole.Islam is the religion of millions if not billions of people. But what does that prove? Nothing.There is plenty wrong with Islam, and there are millions if not billions of people who are not Islamic.You need to broaden your horizons and drop your tiresome chauvenistic schtick.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    There are no gay urges. To imagine that there is a gay urge shows profound ignornace. Religon that promotes such attitudes and beliefs begins in ignorance, and then goes down hill from there. A religious view that categorizes sexual orientation as a gay urge has nothing good to say about anything and should be abandonned.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    A large part of the Ialamic anti-Western agenda derives from institutionalized sexual dysfunction within Islam; the Islamic anti-Western agenda is partly motivated by a a malevolent anti-gay agenda, which puts Islam smack in bed with the Catholic Church.All these oll men, priests and immams, fascinated with what man on man sex, and how to stamp it out. What piety; I’m so impressed.

  • yasseryousufi

    Gays are despicable people who indulge in disgusting acts. Pamela is a paid agent of people who would like muslim parents to encourage their sons when they see them kissing another male, likewise with their daughters. Ofcourse Parents and well wishers would like to keep their loved ones from destroying their lives, just like they would with their children who get addicted to cocaine or booze. Homosexuals have a destructive family life, constant marriage breakdowns and disenchanted children. Gay children are every parents worst nightmare, kinda like kids who do drugs. There is nothing noble in being a prisoner of your animalistic lust. So stop glamorizing the insanity of same sex relationships in the name of Islam.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Yasseryousufi You sound gay to me.Your beloved Islam shares something with the hated and dreaded Christianity: … a great big hole, when it comes to the exitence of gay people in the world …No scheme of thought, no philosophy, no religion, can have any validity with such a great big gaping hole in it. You don’t know anything about gay people; you don’t understand them; you are in denial about the reality of their existence; and your religion has no means of coping with them, but to scapegoat them as the source of all that is evil and wicked in the world.But gay people are not disgusting and dispicable; you are the one who is disgusting and dispicable, as well as bigotted and intolerant. Gay people are not bad; they are not wicked; being gay is not a sin; it is not a lifestyle; it is not an urge. It is just sexual orientation.You are a pitiful little guy and I feel sorry for you misery.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    YasseryusufiPamela Taylor is one of those American Muslims that you are always bragging about, remember, the fastest growing religion in America? So how come she doesn’t count, because she is a Western American Muslim?

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    YasseryousuffiIt is a well-known fact that Yasser Arrafat was gay, and no, he did not just wake up one day and discover it; he was always gay; her married a very blonde, very Westernized woman whom he never slept with and never had sex with, to prove that he was not gay, but he was.Therefore, what do you think characterizes the gay life-style? blowing up civllian airplaines? murdering civilians? cavorting for an entire lifetime, with a bunch of macho men, and NEVER settling down to a REAL family life?People are born gay. They do not suddenly realized they are gay; they simply realize that they cannot pretend anymore that your opinion should matter. Your problem is not that people are gay, but that gay people have at long last, after centuries of persectuion, found a voice.If you are not gay, you do not have to worry; people do not just suddenly turn gay; however, men obsessed with homosexuality often turn out to be gay.That sounds a little like your problem. And in Islam, which hates gay people, possibly even more than Christianity, people born gay, are tormented from child-hood because of a sexual orientation, that they were born with.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Yasseryousuffi”You are just a small brained, foolish reactionary. I tried in the past not to respond in kind to your ad hominem attacks, but I guess shock therapy is the way to deal with you.”I do not engage in ad hominen attacks, it is you who do that on a regular basis. I have noted that you seem to hate Hindus with a passion. But why is that I wonder? To me, people from Pakistan and India are EXACTLY alike.You have actually shown your true colors and motivations, at last, your hatred of gay people, and your personal fear of being gay, yourself.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    YasseryousuffiWhat if one of your children were gay? What would you do? Cast him him out? try to change him? try to alter his mind, his personality? try some sort of experiemntal brain surgery to cure him? Shock treatment maybe? Or would you do as they do in Iran, hand hang him by the neck until he is dead? Or would you do as they do in Saudi Arabia, and have his head chopped off? Would take your dead son’s head, and hang it on the wall, and rejoice in triumph, that your gotten rid of another homosexual?Why do you think you are so much better than everybody else? because you most certainly are not. You post on a regular basis with your mind in the gutter. Why are you so obsessed with Israel? Your country is literally drowning because your leaders do not care at all about the people; they have ZERO interest in modern enginerring flood control programs that could avert such terrible floods. Why? becuase it is much better to squander your meager dollars on a nuclear weapons program so that you can threaten your Hindu neighbors, even though Indiand and Pakistanis are EXACTLY alike.Go ahead, kill the gays, kill the Jews, kill the Hindus, kill the Americans,kill the infidels; you are literally drowning in your own hatred of the outside world. No one will donate to poor Pakistan? Gee I wonder why? A poor backward xenophobic country, full of poor snobs, hostile to everything modern, secular, and progressive, holding your poor pitiful hands out for money from all the people that you hate.Crawl back in your hole; you are boring.

  • yasseryousufi

    Daniel,Your knowledge of Islam, Pakistan and the wider world in general is not more than a semi literate truck driver from middle america who’s eaten junk food and watched fox news all his life and believes he understands everything that goes around in the world. I do not live in a hedonistic society, so the chances of my children becoming gay are pretty slim. I’ll raise them as muslims and tell them the rights and wrongs from an early age. What would you do with yours?? So we cannot criticize Israel even when it imprisons a whole country and denies them any rights? You better look at the plank in your own eye. Its your own morality that has a gutetr standard.You keep spewing hatred for muslims in your every post. Need I remind you again that the White Christian has been the most barbaric, most murderous and vicious religion/race on the face of the earth. We would very much you to take your donations and your murderous soldiers/drones out of our sight. Why is NATO literally on its knees begging Pakistan to open the route to Afghanistan? But its too much for your fat brain to figure out how much Pakistan means to the world and the war on terror.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    yasseryousufi You are a rube straight out of the Middle Ages. There is no gay lifestyle anymore than there is a Muslim lifestyle. If I were to picture a Muslim lifestyle, I would picture a man in a turban riding a camel, with bombs strapped to his body, with his four wives following behind, with dog leashes around their necks, and walking on all fours.So, if you are not open to slanderous portrayalas of fictious lifestyles, then you had better get a little information about gay people.Your misinformation and ignorance is pitiful. And it is all the more laughable because you have illusion of being so smart. Gay people are everywhere, in all cultures, in all countries, in all towns and cities, even in rural and farm areas, even in Pakistan, even in your very own family; people are born gay, and therefore, there is nothing that a person like you can do to stamp them out, because more are always being born. All you can do is force their silence. Gay people are rich and poor, atheistic and relgious, Christian, Muslim, Jew, and Bhuddist, and all the rest I did not mention. They are mean and kind, fat and thin, goodlooking and ugly, short and tall. Gay people are not just models or florists, contrary to your ignorance; they are truck drivers, teachers, plumbers, electicians, engineers, even generals. They are even glorious terrorists, like your beloved Yasser Arafat, for example, and they are great generals, like Alexander the Great.I would suggest that you take your very own advice that you repeatedly dish out ad nauseum, to keep your mouth shut about things that you do not understand.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    YasseryousuffiWhenever you are pinned down in an argument, you ALWAYS play the Israel card.Well, guess what?NOBODY CARES!!!Stop worrying so much about Israel’s right to exist and start worrying more about Pakistan’s right to exist, because, it is on the brink of total collapse and ruin. It is not even a real country but just a breakaway province of India, a forced and artificial contrivance, based Islamic inablity to co-exist with Hindu infidels.

  • Secular

    We would very much you to take your donations and your murderous soldiers/drones out of our sight. Why is NATO literally on its knees begging Pakistan to open the route to Afghanistan? But its too much for your fat brain to figure out how much Pakistan means to the world and the war on terror.Posted by: yasseryousufYasser, let me let you in on a secret. As the rest of the world sees it, Pakistan is a w$#%e. Ready to send its soldiers to Saudi to protect that decrypt royal family that’s like giving them a BBBJ. And letting US & NATO troops is like enjoying greek, it often hurts but at the same time pleasures you. Otherwise how is Parvez to rob the country blind and Zardari to graduate to Dr. 20%. Of course once in while the w$%#e makes a show of her piety, that’s what Pakistan is doing. Don’t worry once a greek always a greek.

  • yasseryousufi

    Daniel,So I know nothing about Gays and you’re the Gay expert. Please enlighten me what are these gay urges that you get and most people do not. What kind of chemical reactions takes place inside you when you have this urge to kiss another man however good looking he might be? Is that normal? Are Gay marriages natural? Why is an overwhelming majority of humanity absolutely disgusted with gays?

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    yasseryousufiThere is no such thing as a gay urge.There is sexual orientation which everyone has, and there is sexual attraction which most people have. You simply select one sexual orientation to favor, and the other to demonize, as though you might favor someone with blue eyse, and hate someone with brown eyes.Don’t worry about what I think of you. I do not hate you. I understand that this is a lot for you to comprehend. I realize that the information that you have about mankind and the world in general is somewhat limited and filtered. And I realize that you live in a society in which nonconformity of thought could be dangerous.So, don’t mind me. I don’t expect you to understand; still, I figure, it couldn’t hurt to put it out there; maybe someone elese similar to yourself will understand better than you.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    In your opinion, not hating gays makes me an expert. Well, then you could be an expert in something, and all you have to do is open your hardened heart.Most of the people of the world are disgusted by Islam. Does that make it right or true? I know you hate me for saying these things, but no matter; maybe I can pry your mind open just a tiny bit; perhaps.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    YasseryousuffiObviously, you did not read Pamela’s essay, about how people like you who revile and persecute gay people, cause them to commit suicide, not because there is anything wrong with them, and not because they are God’s mistakes, but because they just get tired of being everyone’s scapegoats, and blamed for every bad thing in the world.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Sexual orientation happensWhen you focus on another person, that person becomes impressed upon your mind. This impression forms images and feelings about that person. People of one sex impress sexual feelings upon the mind. People of the other sex do not. This is sexual orientation. Sexual orientation happens. How these impressions form images in our minds is an autonomic process beyond conscious control, but is a part of the mental apparatus which exists inside each one of us. When your impressions of sexual feeling come from someone of the opposite sex, you are said to be heterosexual. But when these impressions come from someone of the same sex, then you are said to be homosexual. Under this conception of sexual orientation, it does not matter whether it is genetic or acquired, but only that it is an unconscious mental process. It does not matter whether you have been promiscuous or a virgin or what sex acts you may have already experienced, only the impression of another human being on your mind matters. It doesn’t matter how much testosterone or estrogen may flow through your body, nor whether your physical mannerisms are more feminine or masculine in character, only the impression of another person on the mind matters.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    yasseryousuffiBeing gay is not a sin; it is not a defect; it is not an abomination; it is not yucky. Those are all lies. You can repeat your lies 10 times or a thousand times, but that will not make these lies true. Repetitivness is not a criteria for truth. SO WHAT, if a person is gay? What’s it to you? What is wrong with that? Why do you judge them? It is their busniness, and not yours, isn’t it? By what authority to you judge them? By what criteria do you judge them? And what does your judgement mean? Do you report to some group that seeks or needs your judgemnts? Or do you just get on the phone with your old lady boyfriends, to gossip? Just what is all this to you?What is wrong with gay marriage? How does that hurt you? How does it hurt straight people or straight marriage? How does it hurt God?How does it hurt organized religion? There is nothing wrong with being gay; it is not a defect of any kind; in fact gay people are perfectly fine, and as free as defects as straight people. Being gay is no big deal, except to all of the anti-gay people, who insist on keeping their grudges going, year in and year out, against a tiny, tiny minority which it totally and completely harmless.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    There are millions of gay people in the world. In the past they have been mute. Now, more and more of them are finding a voice. Now, when a gay person is slighted, there is a good chance that he will speak up. Merely speaking up for oneself is the “problem.” And it is a “problem” that is not go away.In the progress of humanity, sexual orientation is now viewed differently than it was in the past. The younger generation has become transformed in its consideration of sexual orientation and homosexuality. To them it is just part of life. Alot of young people even regard a gay person as an interesting, even exotic type of person to know, instead of an unacknowledged subject of taboo. The old taboo against gays is gone, and it can never be brought back. The fact that we are having this discussion demonstrates this to be true. That is the progress of history. There is no tactic that anyone can devise that will undo this fact. When right-wing Christians and Muslims rant against gay people, and trump up all kinds of “proof” that God is on their side, that only hurts them, and imperils their position even more, as each new generation extends to Christianity and to Islam less and less credibility.Muslims who immigrate to the West are going to have to deal with this problem and accomadate to it; they are going to have to reform their thoughts and beliefs to coincide with a society which is more just and better than the ones they have left behind, for that is what will become of Islam, if it does not change;p it will be “left behind.”

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    When we argue about our beliefs, the point ultimately is not who is right or who is wrong. The point is that even if you think another person is wrong, you cannot change the belief of their true heart by the force of your will, nor by any other force, for that matter. For the only way to cut out the belief of another’s true heart is by cutting out the heart, and killing the person. And even then, you have not changed the belief of the person whom you have killed.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    YasseryousuffiGay people are here, ready or not, whether you know any or not. They are all ready and willing to tell you about being gsy so you don’t need to make things up about them, assume false stereotypes as truth, nor depend on hearsay as fact. If you are willfully ignorant when the truth is easily and freely accessible, then that says something VERY BAD about your character, doesn’t it?Gay people are here, living among us, on the earth. They are small in number, and are not a threat to anyone. A small fraction of them are already paired up in couples. These are the people who would get married if it gay marriage were legal. The number of gay people would not change, and the number of gay couples would not change. In fact, you would not and could not notice any difference at all, in your life. You would be just as free as ever to shun and ostracize gay people, as ever. If you your religion teaches that being gay is a sin and is bad, then your religion is leading you down the wrong path. You must have the courage to face this and question the false doctrines that your religion has passed along to as truth. It takes courage. I cannot imagine any way that gay marriage will have a negative impact on society, and therefore, why would anyone be against it, other than as an automatic, unthinking reflex, resulting from igmornance about gay people. Your problem is ignorance, that you just plain do not understand. And secondarily, you seek to put an intellectual spin on your arguments, arguing in a manner that is really beyond your sophistication to make any valid points.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    YasseryousuffiIf your religion teaches that being gay is a sin and is bad, then your religion is leading you down the wrong path. You must have the courage to face this and question the false doctrines that your religion has passed along to as truth. It takes courage. For isn’t this really why you fear America, Western Culture, secularism, and democracy? because, in this way of life, as opposed to yours, there is a challenge to step up, and think a thought that is true to your own heart, and not dictated by others; because you must take a look with courage at what you have been told is true, and realize that maybe it is not all true, after all; that you must make own your way with courage, rather than be spoon-fed all your thoughts and beliefs, by others who do not seek truth, but merely political domination.I know it takes courage, and maybe you don’t have it, and if you don’t, I wouldn’t blame you for that.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    YasserYousufiBeing gay is a whole collection of traits, which are integrated into the personality, so that it is a major defining quality of the personality. Therefore, the gay orientation cannot be “eradicated” without drastically altering, changing, and damaging the personality. Even if you had the power to make this alteration in another person’s personality, I would not think that it would be a good idea. Same sex attraction is only one among the collection of traits that gay people have. The actual logistics of sexual positions and sex acts varies from person to person, and you cannot know what any single person does in private, gay or straight, unless they tell you. Would you ask? Would you dare to ask people about their sex positions, just to make sure that they were doing things according to “code?” Would you ask you best friend? Would you ask your brother or sister? Would you ask you mother? I hope not.There is anecdotal evidence that being gay comes with a high degree of intelligence and a high degree of creativity. So, in a way, gay people are actually superior to straight people. Isn’t is a little disingenuous and snobbish for the big stupid block heard moron straight men to belittle gay men who are smarter and creative than they are?

  • asizk

    Pamela,In your previous article U referred to Al Azhar as central main stream Islam (sunni)institution:can u then get us a decree or a leagl jurist opinion from Al Azhar to sanction homosexuility and allow gays into Moseques? I doubt it very much.I am quiet liberal and open-minded and I don’t doubt your Islam but not to the extent that u would put words into the Prophet’s mouth which he abhores:he never said to allow gays to mosques because it’s squarely against Islam and the Quran-u should know this simple fact if u are a Muslim.Please don’t mix your personal opinion with the teachings of Islam. U could consult an Islamic jurist and get his legal opinion on whether homosexulaity is sanctioned.U are way off the mark.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    asizk By my standards, you are not liberal and open-minded; you are right-wing and narrow-minded; not even narrow-minded, but close-minded.Religion with and anti-gay agenda is trash-religion, not worthy of respect by any decent person in the world.Is that really what you claim Islam to be?

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    asizk Gay people should not change to suit your false doctrines and beliefs; you should change.

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