Haley, Jindal and America’s new religious litmus test

Last night’s Republican primary runoff in South Carolina plausibly clears the way for Nikki Haley to join Bobby Jindal as … Continued

Last night’s Republican primary runoff in South Carolina plausibly clears the way for Nikki Haley to join Bobby Jindal as governors with an epochal distinction: two Indian Americans leading two Southern states. Belonging to a community that makes up less than a percentage of the U.S. population, their accomplishment is momentous, even more so because Haley would be the first female governor of her state. Coupled with President Obama’s own astounding win last year–he carried North Carolina, Virginia and Florida–a credible argument could be made that in politics, at least, a post-racial South is emerging

Haley endured ludicrous, unsubstantiated allegations of infidelity, and she and Jindal both faced down racial slurs and epithets on their road to victory. But listen to the buzz around Haley’s improbable rise and Jindal’s electoral success, and what is abundantly clear is that a politically post-racial America does not mean that a pluralistic America has emerged.

As any observer knows by now, say what you will about Haley and Jindal, but don’t say that they are not Christian. Ask about the Dharma religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism) of their childhood and their parents–Hinduism for Jindal and Sikhism for Haley–and be referred to Haley’s website where she writes of “living for Christ” or Jindal’s own striking testimonial on his conversion to Catholicism.

This year, eight Indian Americans, most of whom are Hindu, are running for national or statewide office–a record number–and the questions of faith become increasingly urgent. The media storyline–”Haley and Jindal triumph despite questions about their faith”– leaves millions of America’s adherents of Dharma faiths stone cold: What is so miserably wrong and unelectable in being a Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist or Jain?

American Muslims faced this cruel non-acceptance, of course, as President Obama’s keepers, forced to combat disingenuous allegations that he might be a Muslim, put his church-going Christian credentials front and center. The pigment of Obama’s, Jindal’s or Haley’s skin does not seem to matter goes the popular narrative, but Christian faith is a foregone criterion for electability. A religious litmus test is clearly in play.

Of course, demonstrations of faith are now de rigueur for today’s politicians. From Sarah Palin’s channeling of the church lady to U.S. Rep. John Shimkus’s (R-Ill.) daily Bible tweets, and from South Carolina Republican-dominated legislature’s failed sponsorship of a Christian themed license plate to Texas Governor Rick Perry’s Supreme Court challenge to display the Ten Commandments on state capitol grounds, too many politicians are using their bully pulpits to bully those of other faiths.

When one family member so publicly repudiates his or her religion, especially when culture, religion and traditions are as intertwined as they are for Dharma faiths, painful conflicts arise within families–even communities. Many Hindus and Sikhs may question why Jindal’s and Haley’s disavowals need be so public and unflinching. Religious conversion should be a personal sojourn, but Jindal’s and Haley’s capitulation to an evangelical insistence on public religiosity and rejection of their ancestral faiths are galling to many.

Six years ago when Haley first won a state legislature seat in South Carolina, she spoke of a more syncretic embrace of religion saying that her family attended both Sikh services and those in her husband’s Methodist church. Under the withering glare of the far-right mandates of South Carolina politics, her Christianity took a recent hard turn with an emphatically evangelical Christian dialect. She gets a perfect rating from anti-abortion groups, she advocates deportation of illegal immigrants–a tea party darling winning a coveted Palin endorsement.

Jindal’s embrace of Catholicism, meanwhile, occurred in high school, even as his parents were leaders of a nascent Hindu community in Baton Rouge in the 1980′s. In the news today for his opposition to a deep-water drilling moratorium, he stands to the right of most Americans in his embrace of conservative principles similar to Haley’s, and even in his advocacy of Intelligent Design promoted by the evangelical movement in his state’s schools.

The Indian American community may be politically mature enough to realize that Indian Americans in high office necessarily serve their constituency and not the ethnic community from whence they came. But the need to “prove” religious fidelity can be unnerving. In 2007, when 358 Christian, Jewish and Muslim members of the U.S. House passed a non-binding resolution recognizing the historical significance of the Hindu and Sikh festival of Diwali, Jindal, then a member of the House, was one of only a handful of legislators that publicly abstained.

Jindal and Haley, as brilliant and dynamic trailblazers, have thrown open the doors to political office, laying waste to minefields of ethnic slurs and perverse allegations that naysayers put in their way. Race is not an impediment to high office, and that is something to celebrate, no doubt. But in their public remonstrations of their parent’s faiths, Jindal and Haley tell well over three million Hindu and Sikh Americans that their time has not yet come as people of faith. And in their absolute denial of their religious heritage, they deny something far greater: a society that privileges pluralism, that no one religion has the monopoly on Truth, and that Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Pagans, agnostics and atheists may invest differently towards the afterlife, but can live in this life with all of the humanity, generosity and yes, frailty of any of those that presume to lead our states or nation today.

Views expressed here are the personal views of Dr. Aseem Shukla, and do not necessarily represent those of the University of Minnesota or Hindu American Foundation.

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  • JoelLFriedlander

    It is screamingly obvious that both these people abandoned their original faiths to find success in America. It is also clear that their original attachment to that faith was tenuous at best. If either of these people were running for office on the Democratic Party ticket it is less likely that they would have to make such a big deal out of their religion. As it is they are Republicans and for Republicans religious belief is a core issue. It is a disgusting issue for an American Political Party to focus on.The Constitution in Article 6 provides:If the Republicans aren’t requiring a religious test for their candidates to run for office, I don’t know what else to call it. In Europe in the 19th Century, if a Jew wanted to rise socially, politically or in employment opportunities he had to convert to Christianity. The list of those who did is enormous, and many became quite successful. But they, like these two politicos, gave something substantial, their ancient faith.I wouldn’t trust either of them to represent my State.

  • lany

    Now to the ACTUAL issue at hand…Even though the author is correct that many of these voters will not vote for a person that is not a professing Christian, these same voters will vote in the most un-Christ like, prejudiced, racist politicians again and again as long as he talks glowing church talk about how Jesus allegedly “saved” him. In the South, the American public tends to assess a politician’s faith by their party affiliation. Obama has shown more Christian fruit than many professing Christian Republicans in office, but many far-right Christians swear till this day that he is everything from a “secret terrorist sympathizer” to “the anti-Christ”. Not unlike the days of Hitler, many Christian voters do not have the slightest clue of what it means to be a true Christian in office. As a matter of fact, many non-Christians are more “Christian” in office than many of these so-called professing racist, Big Business sympathizing “Christians”…

  • lany

    APAGANPLACE:As much as you would like to make it seem as if only Christianity requires you to renounce old beliefs to convert, the truth is that there is not a single religion practiced on the face of this earth that agrees with every other faith on the planet; hence, some renunciation is always going to be required. Even the most so-called tolerant religions are incompatible with many faiths and you will have to renounce your old beliefs to practice them.

  • lany

    APAGANPLACE, I grew up in polytheist homes so I know quite well what many polytheists believe. I am very familiar with the polytheists’ intolerance of faiths like Christianity. They might not use fire-and-brimstone sermons to send them to hell, but that’s only because they tend not to believe in such a place. On the other hand, they WILL denigrade them as hateful, intolerant, bigoted beings (much as you have done) simply because they do not agree with their polytheistic view. I want you to believe whatever you want, just don’t pretend that you are any more open to opposing views than your dissenters because clearly you are not.

  • dove1751

    We need a religion that praises and recognizes Christ/the Bible, the Torah, the Sikh Gurus/Bible, Mohammad,Mother Teresa, Mother Mary, Bhudda. They were all embodiments of GOD. The same god that created the Earth, the Planets, the Galaxies and the Universe. We would not be here without that God.

  • Navin1

    “will have to renounce”that’s it right there. There are certain faiths that say you must renounce to gain membership. Others say that the renunciation is not a group membership, nor a ideology, nor a name, nor this or that. We renounce the results / consequences / gains of deeds is a major role in the Gita, for example. But there is not “have to renounce.” monoideological constructs, this right way is not that wrong way. In polyideological constructs this right way is not that possibly right way. In advaita, there is no wrong way for the soul but there is wrongness for the local situation – the ego. This argument is one of the powers of advaitism, strict non-dualism. Once you worship Truth as IT IS, then the Truth is what is all about you, even your enemy. You no longer have the reasonable claim that you have the one right way because the Truth is all of IT. Another approach would be to look at it historically. The most intolerant ideologies are those that believe they have the one right way: christians, muslims, Communists, Aztecs. The most tolerant are those that believe there are multiple paths. (This is not an all or nothing argument and you note that the Aztecs are polytheists and Communists are Atheists.) So historically, with the information we have, the so called monotheists are bastards, the polytheists are martyred by the bastards. Joining a group of bastards is bastardly.Apaganplace, more power to you.hariaum

  • lany

    OK I will call you on this. To be a Universalist Unitarian, you must reject the idea that Jesus is the way to God, or that all people must submit to Allah by submitting to Islam. To be a Buddhist, you must REJECT the idea that there is a creator God because you adhere to a pantheistic view of God. To be a Quaker, you must REJECT ideas that contradict their statement of faith. Now, you can still profess to be, say, a Buddhist and claim that there is a Creator God from whom all things were made; but saying it does not make it authentic.

  • mihirmeghani

    A great article that sums up what many non Christians feel about government and politics. It is very hard to win in many parts of the country if you are not a right wing Christian. That reflects the lack of acceptance and lack of pluralism of many people in this country.As for those who commented that their Christian belief does not accept other beliefs – that is the fundamental problem.

  • Navin1

    The Buddha specified that if you do not find his path beneficial you should seek another one. The fact that a theology does not have a hell is the demonstration of tolerance. You need a hell for people that you are intolerant of. You need to convert to a theology that supports intolerance to be saved from the intolerant. jesus needed the apocalypse, that he was wrong about, to enforce monoideology. Mohamed needed the sword to ban polytheism in Mecca. Herodatus, traveling to Egypt, realized that the Egyptians worshiped many of the same gods as the Greeks but by different names. Atilla the Hun wanted you to bow to him as ruler, but he would listen to spiritual debates of the lands he conquered. Chinese society has been syncretic of Ancestor worship, polytheism, animism, Taoism, Buddhism (until communism came that is). hariaum

  • publius1

    It is hardly consistent with the author’s call for tolerance for minority religious groups to sneer at individuals who decide to embrace Christianity.

  • lany

    Lany: “OK I will call you on this. To be a Universalist Unitarian, you must reject the idea that Jesus is the way to God, or that all people must submit to Allah by submitting to Islam.Apaganplace: Untrue. Actually, you merely must accept that there are other ways as well. Apaganplace you cannot have your cake and eat it too. In your response here, you actually put your foot in your mouth by proving your point. Universalism has no place for what you call “exclusivism”.By the way, believing in the truth does not make you “intolerant” if it is true. Intolerance is not a matter of belief, it is a matter of action. It is impossible to believe in something without offending someone else’s beliefs somewhere (whether you admit it or not). But that does not mean you cannot respect those you disagree with. There, I do concur with the author of this article and I do agree with the need for mutual respect in spite of whether or not we share beliefs.

  • siyer79

    “We need a religion that praises and recognizes Christ/the Bible, the Torah, the Sikh Gurus/Bible, Mohammad,Mother Teresa, Mother Mary, Bhudda. They were all embodiments of GOD. “Dove1751:

  • APaganplace

    Hey, Navin. Maybe just of the ‘non-Book-people,’ so to speak. There are a lot of gaps between the Hindu and Buddhist and Pagan and Sikh and indigenous and African diasporic and traditional and other communities, but I think there’s nothing between *us* that stands in the way of understanding each other better. How quickly, though, does ‘Interfaith’ become ‘Scuffling with the Judeo-Christian-Islamics about the Same Darn Things We Wouldn’t Care About If It Weren’t Political…’ Concept. Not to exclude the exclusivists, but, yeah. How do you include exclusivism in inclusion anyway? Maybe we could be better at speaking between all the tribes if we took the time with each other more that way. :)

  • lany

    hariaum: The fact that a theology does not have a hell is the demonstration of tolerance. You need a hell for people that you are intolerant of. Please indulge me, I must correct this common misconception: When Jesus walked the earth, his basic claim to fame was that his death would be to save the entire world from hell. The entire world. No people was exempt. That means whether you were Jewish or Gentile, black or white. And when Jesus walked the earth, Christians didn’t even exist then.

  • Navin1

    Lany,you said that your polytheist family was intolerant by their words. Yet now you are saying it must be in action. Did you polytheist family go out and act in intolerant ways? Not to be personal, its a rhetorical question. These politicians advanced their political careers by emphasizing group membership with those that are historically intolerant of the groups these people left. Pretty mixed up.I do believe intolerance is internal, not just external. This is why I would rather speak of the principle of mono-ideology rather than any single label of a diverse group of people. The mono-ideology can seep in anywhere. But doctrine can support that intolerance. And when doctrine supports intolerance, I believe it should be rejected. The idea that there is only one way to Truth is a doctrine of intolerance (not to mention the proof of a failed creator god). That doctrine, whether it is jesus, allah, or any other name/group is mere idolatry and creates intolerance – it must be rejected (renounced) for one to be tolerant. But, in order for me to live what I believe, I must also validate the right of the intolerant to reject what I believe. There is no “must renounce” clause – we are siblings in the path to Truth. You have your way, I have mine – poly ideology.hariaum

  • kartikk1967

    “I am very familiar with the polytheists’ intolerance of faiths like Christianity.”Christianity is a proselytizing faith. It aggressively seeks to convert all peoples of the world to its fold. In other words, it seeks to obliterate my faith. Why you expect me to love a creed that’s causeless-ly hostile to mine is beyond me. Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, atheists and Jews are willing to co-exist peacefully with each other and with Muslims and Christians, in a non-confrontational, live-and-let-live manner. For Christians and Muslims to speak of the intolerance of others is like, to quote from the bible, mote in the brother’s eye vs the beam in yours.

  • jfv123

    Interesting.The article should instead ask:Why do Dems HATE Indian Americans?Answer: Dems hate achievers. It spoils their fantasy about life being so unfair to underachievers.We all know Indian-American students are excluded from universities, because of racial quotas imposed by Dems, yet we get a constant stream of liberal propaganda like this article trying to convince people that Republicans don’t like immigrants.Republicans love immigrants who make positive contributions to our country.The numbers don’t lie:

  • APaganplace

    Here’s a case in point about a backwards idea of ‘tolerance:’ “Answer: Dems hate achievers. It spoils their fantasy about life being so unfair to underachievers. “If what it takes in a de facto religious test for office is for an Indian American to renounce any value to Hinduism and become an aggressive conservative Christian who denies the value of the very groups they come from… Is that ‘Achievement…’ Or is it something else? That’s the question.

  • APaganplace

    Lany: (Not to indulge too much about ‘Why does everythign have to be about any Christian that walks in the room) “Well, did it work, or not? If it worked, why all the fuss? If he ‘saved us from ‘original sin,’ excellent. I never knew there was such a thing. Good job. Time to be getting on with the world by now, I should think. ;) :) (Sorry about my formatting errors with the italics in the last two posts. :) )

  • siyer79

    JFV123,”The numbers don’t lie:Let’s see if a Hindu Republican get’s elected.

  • APaganplace

    Siyer brings up an important point: It’s not as if there aren’t any hawkish-tending, fiscally-conservative *Hindu* Americans out there. (I don’t recall any Sikhs I’ve known talking much politics) Why are the only two rabid Christian conservatives who don’t acknowledge the ancestry Republicans say it’s someone else that ‘hates’ so much?

  • roscym1

    I noticed that her opponents tried to get the knee jerk (pun intended) Christian conservatives (or more accurately theofascists) not to vote for her because she was not spouting the “acceptance of Jesus Christ as personal saviour” as a litmus test for public office.I’m sure the Tea Baggers would love to repeal this. Most don’t even know it exists.

  • Navin1

    Further on the theology of hell.If there is a place of eternal damnation, the creator must have created that place and the conditions that allow souls to be eternally damned. The creator then anticipated an otherness in his own creation and condemned his own creation to the otherness. If the creator had planned to send a get of jail card for everyone, then there is no need for creating a place of eternal damnation unless the creator knew that the get out of jail card would be imperfect in the results. A belief in eternal damnation (or an excommunication from the body of god- a church) is a belief in a poor creator that was incapable of saving all of his creation or a creator that planned to hate part of his creation. Theology of jesus:If by his death we are all saved, then it is not in acknowledging his as the one and only way. If through acknowledging him as the one and only way you are saved, then it is not by his death that our sins are washed away. But in acknowledging him as the one and only way, then you must exclude all other ways. If all other ways are false, then those who the creator set up to fail to acknowledge him must be put in a place of eternal damnation even though the failure was in the design, not the person. You must have a theology of hell or outer darkness where jesus’ god does not function. btw such a place also clearly identifies such a god as finite. A theology of eternal hell is a theology that embraces hatred. Apaganplace,could it be that a place where people with open minds can meet would be “a pagan place.” I guess that may also be why so many christians can’t stand university education and that liberal antichristian bias of truth seekers. You know those academics, a bunch of pagan, heathen, infidel Prometheus worshiping wizards who keep stealing fire from the god(s). :) hariaum

  • APaganplace

    Heehee, Navin. Best not to mention their Hell if you don’t want the thread to degenerate: that’s they’re all-encompassing excuse for anything they do to anyone, ‘This is saving you from our own Hell! Nothing could be worse than *that,* no matter how crass, corrupt, or abusive!’ Careful. :)

  • agapn9

    It’s always hard to accept someone else’s conversion away from your faith. It’s a bit sad. However, Mrs. Haley conversion to her husband’s faith is a common occurrence. She fell in love with her husband and love makes us do crazy and daring things. So call her daring – she dared to risk her former life for love – like the Islamic princess Fatima in Portugal.Mr. Jindal’s conversion is more hurtful except for the fact that the catholic church has been in India for hundreds of years – Teresa of Calcutta, Jesuit schools, and missionaries of every sort. So the catholic church is part of the Indian religious establishment whereas protestant christianity may not be.The people of India by and large are very tolerant of religious diversity. However, the rise of fundamentalist Islam has caused a rise in fundamentalist Hinduism and the potential for violence in India and between Pakistan and India has increased.So we all need to pray for world peace. Good men and women regardless of faith when they pray with a sincere and open heart will be heard by a God beyond our ability to imagine.

  • tcement

    Lest we forget, even in post-christian U.K. Tony Blair waited until he stepped down from premiership before formally becoming a Catholic. Even when people have stopped caring about the pointless differences between pointless doctrines, mindless, historic prejudice lingers.

  • djah

    Nothing more reliable than a person who changes their religion and their name to enter politics. These are people who would abandon their roots and identities to more easily achieve power. Does anyone seriously think they hold any principles sacred?

  • jondoe1

    I don’t think America is post-racial in its politics. Jindal was elected, in part, for pretending he is not South Asian American. The guy changed his name from “Piyush” to “Bobby” and doesn’t acknowledge his ethnic or religious heritage. In other words, Jindal had to whitewash himself in order to get elected. You’ll never see an Italian, Polish, or Irish person have to do this stuff to get elected.

  • rajimali

    Christian based societies are not that different from Muslim societies. They both feel only people of their faith can lead them. Although Christian societies are much better than Muslim societies in providing equal rights to almost every thing else such as freedom of religion (as long as you do not want to run for top elected political offices).And take the case of Hindu majority India where a minority -Sikh is the top leader and a foreign born Christian Sonia Gandhi is calling the shots. There are numerous top Muslim/Sikh/Christian leaders- both eleceted and appointed.Concluision? Seems like it is the Abrahamic religion which need a lesson of tolerance and secularism from religion of many Gods-Hinduism.

  • dmm1

    When someone converts from one religious belief to another, they rarely do it to “disrespect” their parents, ancestors, culture, etc. In fact, it is usually the opposite — it’s a gut-wrenching decision. So it is extremely rude to accuse Jindal and Haley, who you don’t even know, with no proof whatsoever, of “opportunism.” Yeah, right. Jindal rejected his ancestral faith as a teenager because he knew way back then that he was going to run for governor of Louisiana as a Republican. Sure. If you believe that, then you should support Jindal, because it would prove him to be the most far-seeing politician in history.

  • samuellenn

    What the hell is the concern?

  • Slipjac

    The only concern here is that the extreme religious right doesn’t believe Haley is a Christian – or Christian enough.From yesterday’s WSJ – read it yourselfI wish they would all pray harder and a comet would come and take them all away. I give that an Amen!Ps, the Civil War ended one-hundred-forty-five years ago. . .

  • APaganplace

    “” You’ll never see an Italian, Polish, or Irish person have to do this stuff to get elected.Posted by: jondoe1″”Actually, that’s exactly what has already happened, don’t you know. It’s just considered normal now.

  • wpcnola

    I see a huge problem with the large influx of immigrants who come to the USA for freedom and other advantages that are here, and then want to setup the circumstances that they left from whence they came. The idea that ethnicity should define a person’s religion escapes all meaning of “faith.”

  • APaganplace

    I think it should be clear that the issue here is not that Jindal and Haley are Indian Americans who converted to Christianity at some point and ran for office: it’s that apparently they did so *by* denying their heritage *because* it’d be considered unacceptable for them to be non-Christian or acknowledge that heritage in any positive way. See?

  • QuintusPublius

    As an evangelical, I am dismayed by the behavior and credulity of my fellow Christians. I don’t mind if someone doesn’t want to vote for someone partly or in whole because of their religion. It’s a free country — they can vote on whatever basis they want, and religion should not be relegated to the private sphere only. (Say a Taliban wants to get elected here. Well, his religion will have a decisive impact on my vote, regardless of the political promises he’s making.) Let’s have full-orbed pluralism with many competing views, not the anemic secularism that On Faith’s Susan Jacoby et al. want.That said, Freakonomics radio did a piece (“Faking It”) discussing how Obama was caught on the horns of a religious dilemma: he had faked the importance of Christianity in his life. When Jeremiah Wright’s brand of theology was brought to light, Obama had either to disavow Wright or admit that he hadn’t really been attending church all that much and that his Christianity was a nominal association rather than an important aspect of his life and thought (except as a rhetorical device and a general cultural background).Sadly the same is true of so many politicians. Would the my fellow evangelicals could see that and apply their litmus test more consistently. They would then, I think, restrict their genuine evangelical options and force themselves to vote for non-evangelicals who don’t tickle the public’s ears with religious lies in order to get into office (or not get the “lesser of two evils” elected). A little pragmatism would go a long way.

  • hoyatiger

    The word “Republican” is mentioned only twice in this column, and in neither case is the term applied directly to either Jindal or Haley. One imagines that if Jindal and/or Haley were Democrats, then it would be repeated in every paragraph because their elections would be considered achievements of historic magnitude. But instead, we are told that we should worry because both Jindal and Haley is now a Christian. (Where is “tolerance” when we really need it?)Obviously, the only way these two Indians could be elected as Republicans in the Deep South is if the rubes and rednecks who voted for them thought they were actually Cherokees — i.e. good red-blooded Americans.Did you hear the one about the African-American who defeated Strom Thurmond’s son in a South Carolina Republican primary? (In Charleston, the Cradle of the Rebellion, no less.) Tim Scott (like all African-American conservatives) must be an Uncle Tom. Everyone knows that all southern Republicans are crypto-racists and repackaged Dixiecrats. But, of course, they’re also rubes and rednecks, so they didn’t know for whom they were voting.

  • pari76

    Namaste.One’s religion should not be the basis for their election into any of life’s affairs; especially here in the United States, since it has been a “melting pot” of race, religion for along time. This was and still is the “rescue place” for a lot of people.Mr. Bobby Jindal, you have no right to stand in our way of any of our religious holidays; by we I mean Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhist, or any other religion for that matter. You are the one ashamed of your religious background, not us. I AM A BORN HINDU A.K.A SATYA SANATANA DHARMA AND I AM VERY PROUD OF THIS. JAI SHREE KRISHNA!!Voting for religious holidays to be public doesn’t not matter your own religion, what matters is that you stand for all people of all race, of all religion. You Mr. Jindal did not stand for the Hindus or the Sikhs.

  • Noacoler

    If I were Indian-American I would feel about these two losers the way American woman feel about Sarah Palin. NOT the representatives I would want to see bubble up to the top. Jindal tries to act like he didn’t finish high school (a doctorate who won’t admit he believes in evolution) and Nimrata is a teabagger who won’t admit she believes in *arithmetic*

  • HerLao

    One of the ironies is this: Right now, it is comparatively easy for a minority — whether they are Asian, Black, or women — to be elected in the GOP/Conservative camp.Compared to running as an Asian, a Black, or a woman in the Democratic camp, that is.The reason is more obvious than people would want to admit: there is HARDLY any diversity in the Conservative/GOP crowds, especially in movements like the “Tea Party” crowds who want to “take America back” and set her political and social trajectory BACK to the Boston Tea Party era, as shown in the dress these Tea Partyers put on.When you have that LACK of diversity, if any minority — particularly if they are RACIAL minority and they happen to say the LOVE the also “take America back” from big, mindless Liberals who are handing America’s wealth to illegal aliens and are saddling us with unprecedented debts, the OVERWHELMING Whites who congregate in such conservative movements LOVE to hear you, love to support you…For them, it is truly “a stone for two birds.”One of the OTHER ironies, however, is that — as Nicky Haley, and “Bobby” Jindal and likely the current-but-temporary Congress man Djou from Hawaii [though I don't know about his case for sure] — if you are a RACIAL minority in the GOP/Conservative camp, you have to either be a “natural-born” Christian (meaning your parents are Christians) or switch to being a Christian…You ALSO have to agree that American politics and governance, American values in terms of morality and ethics, American civil and political and penal rights …. that all of them — and OTHER facets of American life, all things considered — WERE BETTER during the Boston Tea Party era of the 1700s than it is today….All this, of course, FLIES in the face of reality.But for people who, through faith — who use faith as the FOUNDATION of their “logic” and “reason” — believe a man, a “divine” man, actually WALKED ON WATER…. you have the ability OR WILLINGNESS to suspend critical thinking, they LOVE YOU to be “part” of their fabric of reality/community…My Congress man here in the Minneaplis dowtown area is a Black and a practicing MOSLEM. His name is Keith Ellison.For Democrats and Liberals, we don’t care too much what your superstitious background is — whether you’re Moslem, Animist, Liberal, Christian, Buddhist, whta-not — so long as you can sell us you’d do a good job representing us in Congress, we give you the benefit of the doubt…The simple LOGICICAL CONCLUSION here is: Liberals and Democrats are, ON AVERAGE, more TOLERANT in their approach to accepting things, ideas, and people NOT of their own immediate beliefs or background.

  • siddharthaban

    There are Indians at the highest reaches of power in the US whose faiths, Hindu or otherwise, have not been a hindrance. Indra Nooyi, CEO, Pepsi, and Nitin Nohria, incoming Dean of Harvard Business School come to mind.But American politics? Going by the column, there is evidence that there is a litmus test of faith. The larger issue, however, one Dr. Shukla alludes to, is that of pluralism.But that does not make it pluralistic. Pluralism lies in what one does with diversity, in living with difference, instead of leveling out those differences and calling it assimilation.Indeed, with its national motto, “E Pluribus Unum,” (From many, one), can the US be pluralistic? It is this question that is driving the cultural politics of this country.Siddhartha Banerjee

  • ThishowIseeit

    Jindal and Haley do not appear to be gullible persons to believe that there is a just supreme being and that the gospels should be taken literally. Their conversion was to please the gullible voters. They know that a just supreme being would not have created so many species of obligate carnivores and obligate predators, as this planet has. They know that science has proven that the book of Genesis should not be taken literally, leading to conclude that the entire Hebrew Bible, including the book of Isaiah, should not be taken literally. Because the believes of the early Christian are just an amplification of what is in Isaiah, the Gospel must not be taken literally.

  • Yankeesfan1

    The authors derogatory comments about Christians and Catholics show that he’s the one trying to bully those who dare to accept that faith. And how said that a person professing “faith” trashes people for protecting unborn babies.

  • fabricmaven1

    Jindal and Haley are both crazy. Would not vote for either. But then, I’m a Democrat.

  • WmarkW

    The election of (ethnic) Asian Republicans is only a surprise to the people who falsely accuse the Republicans of racism.This perception stems from the fact that there’s little in the African-American political platform for a white to support.

  • essar46

    Converting from one religion to another will not help the individual in any way other than for ulterior motives. If one did not see the goodness in his/her original religion, do you think they would see it in the converted religion. Remember the famous saying of the Nobel Prize (Particle Physics) recepient Steven Weinberg: “With or without Religion, good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for a Good Person to do Evil things that takes Religion”. I think that religion is the worst curse on Humanity!

  • legitbrownie

    You can trying to re-hash the racist piece circulated by the AP just because Jindal and Haley are minorities and are NOT Democrats.Millions of people all over the world convert to religions that are not of their parents and it has nothing to do with “public remonstrations of their parent’s faiths” or “absolute denial of their religious heritage”. Americans convert out of Christianity or Judaism to one of your Dharma religions because they think it’s so cool. There are Christians who will not vote for a Mormon or Protestants who will not vote for a Catholic.He who was Barry before he created his black persona with street cred lived in a completely white world, and before that a Muslim world. Why don’t you mention the Democrats who are minorities and not of their parent’s religion? Thank god there’s no “Asian” voting bloc because Asians are too smart to buy into the Democrat racist victimhood snakeoil sales job.

  • ssbalepu

    I just fail to understand the hue and cry about how people “use” religion. Religion and God are human-made, this is quite obvious from the way we are intolerant to each other. God and Religion mirror an utopian concept of how life should be but is not. It’s an anti-thesis of what is human. So does it matter who does what with religion when we are still blowing each other up in the name of “religion”? Just goes to prove what a mess we have gotten ourselves into, with this concept. And every time someone raves and rants about it, it brings out everyones “true colors”!

  • John1263

    I don’t care what religious faith they claim to follow. I do care that they are follower of the cult of st. reagan the benighted. They are palinista enpty headed trolls. And that is dangerous.

  • werowe1

    Hindus believe in the caste system and punish their children if they marry outside of their race, caste, or religion. To be American by definition means to embrace a pluralistic society. If a Baptist were to say he would not marry a Hindu we would say he is racist.

  • Notsofastmyfriend

    Given New Jersey’s high Asian Indian population, I thought that would be the first state to have an Indian governor, not Louisiana or South Carolina. Nice to shatter a stereotype.

  • bobmoses

    OnFaith demonstrates yet again that it is only an cynical extension of the Washington Post’s liberal activism. Apparently the purpose of “OnFaith” is to give liberals a forum to attack conservatives. What a joke. Now wonder. Look at the two discredited hacks who put this piece of garbage together: Meacham and Quinn.

  • mmachu

    Imagine of Kennedy had to give up his Catholic faith to protestant faith when he ran for president.. His Catholic faith was also called into question..But he remained true to his faith.These two are sellouts..especially the woman from SC.

  • mmachu

    IF Kennedy had to give up his Catholic faith, the Catholics of this country rightly would not have respected him.These two do not deserve our Indian respect.IF these two were already born Christians from India, I would have cheered for them and respected them.

  • mmachu

    werowe1, says Hindus believe in the caste system. this coming from christians who need to be reminded that the caste system never went so low as wiping out the American Indians, It never enslaved anyone nor lynch anyone.We all got to see the plight of Christian untouchables during Katrina.Even after 300 years, the white chjristian caste and the black christian caste hardly marryThere is even a seperate white caste christian church and black caste christian caste.So get off y’all high horses…really!

  • papafritz571

    They’ve sold their souls to gain political offices. That says it all. Their “faith” is paper thin. Why vote for someone who feels their qualifications for public office isn’t good enough on its merits, so they change their religious affiliations to be accepted?

  • virtualchemist

    Persons of almost any faith can be elected to major office – a womanizer, hypocrite, Machiavellian – hey, it can be the same person!

  • shewholives

    As long as they are not Jihadis.

  • spidermean2

    Hinduism is stupidity for legalizing slavery and discrimination for centuries (Dalits) and Catholicism is not Christianity.All men are created equal. That’s the message of Christianity. Any accusations against Christianity is purely a product of ignorance.Aseem Shukla remains to be an ignorant man.

  • spidermean2

    God himself prophesied that true Christians will inherit and rule the world. It’s not something Christians worked for. It’s a gift. Nobody can stop that prophecy.

  • shaheed-yahudi

    GOV. “Boboo Ghandial” WOW! Finally America See’s & Talks about a Good Man/Mon!

  • Navin1

    I too find this an interesting paradigm. The christian culture, the voters of southern states, the voters in Prop 8 of CA, the voters of UT, etc over and over have demonstrated their hatred of the non-christian. I don’t know these two politicians, who being politicians by choice should not be trusted more than you can throw them and their entourage, but certainly they follow in the Marxist construct of using religion as an opiate to get votes from addicts. Whatever their religious leanings, their use of religion to gain votes shows they care neither for Truth nor for spirituality. Jindal, the anti government bastion of the new Republican party, still wants government to protect BP and the oil companies while at the same time asking for non-market based handouts for his state. Here is a man with the principle of a water, taking the shape that suits him for the moment. The news reports of Haley seem the same.But these are not spiritual or intellectual leaders. They are politicians learning to exploit the forces that be in their environment. And here is a great danger. As they dishonor their parents (as every convert does – btw that is a commandment that christo-islamists seem to have no trouble in causing others to disobey) they dishonor their ancestry. If we, as those who seek Sanatana Dharma, stand by and support these weak kneed persons as members of our community, we support to our children that abandoning Truth is acceptable. Open mindedness comes with being gutted. Their rhetoric is anti-Hindu, it is anti-secular, it is anti-equal opportunity. Any one with an open mind should not vote for such persons (nor any person that believe that jesus’ voice guides them, Allahs etc). Let the mono-ideologist that can not tolerate other religions vote for their converts. Let us support those that seek Truth beyond names. Let us stand with Truth as our God. Even if we fail to win an election, we will win the Truth in ourselves.hariaum

  • thw2001

    Wow, religion, mysterious ghost friends that nobody can see and crazy old books about the benefits of polygamy and conception without intercourse. And they demand respect while they deny the existence of fossils and the Grand Canyon. They request that their god only bless their nation while they claim separation of Church and state. When they get sick they quickly turn to science but when they get ready to die they claim the existence of some special underworld. All this while waging violent war in the name of some supposedly benevolent cause. The last gasp of many rapidly vanishing false hopes. Get real people!!!

  • prq98

    American elected a member of the catholic faith to the presidency – once. It has yet to elect a member of the Mormon faith. Or a publicly avowed agnostic, or athiest. Basically, unless you’re Protestant in this country, you don’t have a chance of winning the highest office. The closer you get to the local level, the more religious diversity you find in elected officials.

  • thebump

    Jindal hardly “stands to the right of most Americans” — to the right of University of Minnesota faculty, perhaps, but not most Americans.To correct another point, it was Oboobma himself, of his own volition, long before anybody even knew his middle name, who decided to play up his Wright-churchgoing credentials.I have to wonder how much time the writer has actually spent in the South. Precious little, I’d dare to wager. But anti-Southern bigotry will never get you dis-invited from the faculty cocktail party.

  • dukie1

    Thanks for writing this piece! I was curious as to why they converted and why they need to beat their chests about it. I guess they did must have missed Aricle VI sec 3 “The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; BUT NO RELIGIOUS TEST shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

  • question-guy

    India is a county of want-to-be’s. Do you really think the guy on the end of that phone’s real name is Danny, Billy, Bobby or Johnny?

  • shalshah

    Americans are idiots…They only relate casteism with Hinduism. They know nothing else about the faith, culture and traditions. These candidates are sellouts. Jindal’s rebuttal last year is proof that he doesn’t have the mettle to suceed in office. Haley is married to a Methodist and represents her constituents to get votes. She would have never won if she professed to be a Sikh. Sikhs are some of the most ardent followers of their faith. Seems like she got suckered into following her husbands religion. Hey, if it helps her political career…so be it. Candidates who convert for political reasons make me sick.

  • thekind78

    Re: WSJ article posted in link above”….But even Mr. Young, who heads the Charleston Leadership Foundation, said he had felt the need to ask Mrs. Haley about rumors that she was a Buddhist.” That about says it all! Sikh, Buddhist, Hindu they’re all interchangeable to the electorate at large. Just change your name to something mono-syllabic and make sure you refer to the Civil War as the “War of Northern Aggression”. Surreal.

  • shaheed-yahudi

    F I F A – W O R L D – C U P – S. Af. – 2 0 1 0:

  • OneMany

    Religion was also a hot issue when JFK became the first Catholic president and when Joe Lieberman came close to being the first Jew in the nation’s second highest seat of power. But perhaps white privilege and being “People of the Book” didn’t compel them to repudiate their faiths the way these two have. We may have come a long way, but we’ve got an even longer way to go.

  • letscheck

    Making a mountain out of a molehill.They chose their beliefs and the decided to also choose conservative positions. Why do they have to represent their parents or country and religion of origin?Recognize that these people are their own selves, bright, smart and offering their services to a country that very much needs them. And they also recognize that Christianity has something to offer that they chose to accept. So did I and millions of others who previously did not believe.

  • Cville2Cville

    Dr. Shukla made several good points but marred them by two careless comments, to wit:1) He stated that Jindal and Haley “deny something far greater: a society that privileges pluralism, that no one religion has the monopoly on Truth.” In fact, a monopoly on the truth is basic Christian doctrine, for Jesus referred to himself as “the way, and the truth, and the life.” (John 14:6). The Christian trusts Jesus as Savior, and therefore should acknowledge — humbly and thankfully — that Jesus is the one Truth. 2) In referring to “Sarah Palin’s channeling of the church lady,” Dr. Shukla seems to disparage the religious practice of millions of Christian Americans, even as he seeks to promote a respectful treatment of those sharing his religious beliefs.

  • lany

    Oh give me a friggin’ break…this is supposed to be a country that celebrates RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. Haley and Jindall have the CONSTITUTIONAL right to convert to whatever they want in America. This essential fact is the quintessential epitome of the very meaning of the friggin American revolution; it is the very core of the founding of America for goodness’ sakes. Millions of people convert from their “ancestral faith” pretty regularly in free countries, you know. If this were Saudi Arabia where you are literally inviting capital punishment for converting from Islam, that would be another issue; but in the US we ought to celebrate that this is not the case (yet), rather than gripe about how Haley and Jindall are “disrespecting their ancestral faith” just because they chose to become Christians. “Journalism” like this makes is sickening…

  • APaganplace

    Lany: “That they do, but it does not mean that the GOP has embraced diversity if they put forth (and only put forth) candidates who may be women or typically-non-Christian minorities, but advocate against the rights and equality *of* women and non-Religious Right Christians.All that says is, “Yeah, convert or go unrepresented.” If the GOP starts *actually* including a diversity of voices and equality for all without surrender to the same old ideologies, …*then* I’ll be impressed.

  • APaganplace

    I mean, get it, Lany? It’s not exactly wondrous civility and diversity for a political party to say, “You can have been born Hindu/female/gay as long as you repent and are very very sorry? As long as you attack those who haven’t been ‘Born again’ Religious Right types?” Get it?

  • Navin1

    Apaganplacethanks. I don’t know what the religious beliefs of these people are, I have never met them. But changes in web sites, changes in rhetoric may or may not reflect religious belief but it is religious rhetoric that they must ultimately take personal responsibility for. Even if it is their handlers, etc that have modified their message, they have put their name on it. I value my name enough that when I put my name to a thing I try to believe it. I expect that of others – perhaps unreasonably. As to the idea of free society, no duh. Yet this free society has trouble with people wanting to get married outside of the church definitions of marriage. It has trouble with people wanting to read textbooks that identify America as secular and plural. It has trouble with people that are atheists, Hindu, Pagan, Jews, Navajo… When the idea of freedom is used to protect the tyranny of the majority, it is mere double speak. The freedom of a society is measured by the protection of individual liberty against the force of the powers that be – the freedom to be a part of the minority. When a Shaaman of Native American origin and culture is voted in as President of the United States and no one questions his/her religion, then you can argue that we have a free society.The election of a black man as president more than 220 years after the formation of this republic is a great time to celebrate where we are, but it is a shame on our country and the founding principles of individualism and individual rights that it took so long. It is a shame on our American tradition that no woman has been elected to the highest post. It is a shame on our American tradition that Jindal and Halley use religion to divide / carve out votes for themselves while supporting an ideology that hates the individual choice of non-group membership.hariaum

  • lany

    APAGANPLACE:”That they do, but it does not mean that the GOP has embraced diversity if they put forth (and only put forth) candidates who may be women or typically-non-Christian minorities, but advocate against the rights and equality *of* women and non-Religious Right Christians.”Of course the GOP has not embraced diversity. But that is besides the point. For a spokesperson who claims to celebrate a diversity of faiths, it is quite odd to me that he would be so upset that many Americans exercise their religious freedom and sometimes choose to embrace a different path from their forefathers.Seems kind of bigoted to me…

  • nikhil1

    Dr. Shukla is absolutely right on point here. Responding to an earlier thread, I have lived my entire life in the South as a practicing Hindu and Indian-American. The overt Bible-thumping conducted by many elected officials and others in influential positions, such as Lt. Gov. Andre Bauer, Gov. Rick Perry, or others, does have a signficant chilling effect on consideration for public office. It raises a wall between openly practicing a non-Abrahamic faith and an effective opportunity to run and win an elected office. Sure, people are free to change faiths as they see fit, but the earlier poster missed the point if he/she believed Jindal/Haley did so blindly. If so, why did Jindal drop his real name (Piyush) and Haley drop reference to her maiden name (Randawan)? Why did the extreme right-wing continue to push the name “Hussein” when Obama ran for President? Come on folks. Think. Religion matters when it comes to elected office. If you are not Christian or Jewish, it is very difficult in certain areas of this country to win an elected office. Period.

  • Navin1

    ApagaplaceI apologize for your need to take exception. I do believe that any conversion dishonors what one’s family and ancestors struggled for. The solution of redressing a past wrong, to me, is to carry the best of the traditions of our ancestors, regardless by what name they called it, and let go of the worst. In society, the name we give to our sets of beliefs is important. In ourselves, the honor we give to our ancestry is important. But, as I am sure you are aware of, sometimes we are born of Nazis (and Nazi like ideologies -christo-islamists) and we do need to deny those names and ideas. That must be a denial both within ourselves and in society. Lany1) this is a commentary. Not reporting type journalism. Opinions count. hariaum

  • lany

    Christians are never going to embrace other faiths. Why should they? That goes against their own faith. But this is hardly peculiar to Christianity. Islam and Judaism make monotheistic claims that reject all polytheism, and by logical extension polytheistic religions reject monotheism as well. Fundamentalism rejects modernism, and vice versa. By embracing a particular faith, you are NATURALLY going to be rejecting some other faith. That’s what religious freedom is all about.

  • john1513

    “There are those who hate Christianity and call their hatred an all-embracing love for all religions.” “These are the days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed except his own.” – G. K. Chesterton

  • Jumpy66

    Lany’s comments below hit the nail on the head. Whenever the Post tries to cover “faith,” the results are almost always an epic fail.

  • BB1978

    As a PROUD Hindu American I am disgusted by both Haley and Jindal. I don’t care that they converted, that is their own personal choice, but don’t diss the rest of us who choose not to, by implying there is something wrong by not being Christian. This is a secular society according to the consititution, and just like race, religion should have no bearing on whether you are qualified to stand for public office. I for one will not be voting for these two. If you have to reject your heritage to win an election, that doesn’t say good things about your character.

  • ThelmaMcCoy

    It seems to me that the public has been fooled again into electing hypocrites. In this light, they should not expect honesty in Congress.

  • Navin1

    Polytheism states you can call your god by whatever name. The whole idea of polytheism is that God is expressed in many forms, in Pantheism, God is expressed in all forms. Polytheism supports your right to make an ideological choice. Monotheism says there is only one right way. (Though the christo-islamic tradition is more of a duotheism with a war between two great supernatural gods – God and Satan). This a general to specific v specific to general argument problem – not really logical. Funny, isn’t it how christians control the state and the education system and still feel they are the martyrs. Makes you wonder if their “martyrdom” under the Romans was more rhetoric and myth than real. Maybe that’s the first time they learned to lie about their origins.hariaum

  • lany

    hariaum:”Polytheism states you can call your god by whatever name. The whole idea of polytheism is that God is expressed in many forms, in Pantheism, God is expressed in all forms. Polytheism supports your right to make an ideological choice. Monotheism says there is only one right way. (Though the christo-islamic tradition is more of a duotheism with a war between two great supernatural gods – God and Satan). This a general to specific v specific to general argument problem – not really logical.”With all due respect, this is rather disingenuous. Polytheism by definition says that there are MANY gods. To deny this is to be intellectually dishonest. Polytheism does not assume that every faith worships the same god(/dess). Several polytheistic religions explicitly name up to hundreds of gods and goddesses that they worship. Monotheism by definition says that no, there is one God. (Monotheism can also assume that one God can be expressed in many forms.) It is not that monotheism is intolerant of polytheism, it is that both views are intolerant of EACH OTHER because they are logically opposite views.

  • spidermean2

    Why is the liberal, atheistic, gay-marrying, evolutionist, democrat northestern. western and northern part of America vulnerable to nuke attacks while the conservative Christian part are not?Why is America so powerful and able to destroy anybody who tries to destroy it? It has the most powerful nuke arsenal in the world today.All the idiots should ponder on this.

  • Chops2

    What a disgrace that one has to be Christian to run for office in the vast majority of this country.This is not the middle ages

  • spidermean2

    If one is not a Christian, he would probably push for abortion rights, gay rights, evolution, porn rights, and all types of stupidity there is.That’s the reason why Christinity is important to sane voters.

  • Elisa2

    It is not complicated. People want leaders that they believe love and care about them. Just read some of these posts.

  • shalshah

    Dalits suck anyway. The just pro-create and inflate India’s population. Casteism exists in every society. Unfortunately, it’s just been linked to Hinduism by the non-believers who want to destroy this fate that existed as the Sanatan Dharma long before the term “Hinduism” was even coined. The symbols on the forehead have nothing to do with caste. They are simply to signify a woman is married and to represent the “mind’s eye” or the God that resides within. Why are Americans so ignorant and uneducated about other cultures and religions? The Islamic and Christian faiths are scourges on humankind.

  • Judge2be

    Excellent article by Aseem Shukla. The ascension by Jindal and Nikki Haley is a concern to all Americans because they faced a religious test by the Republican party — are they Christian? This test violates Art. VI, Sec. 3 of the U.S. Constitution, which states: “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” It is shameful that the party that claims to be conservative cannot even live by the words of the Founding Fathers.

  • Jumpy66

    Every time the Post tries to religion and faith, it swings and misses. I am dumber for having read this article and many of the comments below, particularly mmachu’s.

  • mmachu

    Slavery in condoned in the bible thats why so many Christians had Slavery…thats why they looked at dark people as less than human. the bible is one immoral book.

  • mmachu

    There is no Hindu history of ethnically cleansing the American Indians.Only Christians have the history of SlaveryOnly Christians have the history of Lynchings.Only Chrsitians have the history of the Holocaust due to your protestant founder Martin Luthers Antisemitic rantings.Christianity is an immoral, vile, bloody groopie cult.

  • Indian51

    Dr. Shukla, you criticized Jindal and Haley for leaving their parents’ faith and heritage. Isn’t it the same that all Indians who left their motherland, India, and their heritage for opportunities and good life in the US and other western countries? I see a double standard.

  • mmachu

    Christianity has warred with Muslims, With Jews, with Buddhists..and they war with Hindus.Christinity is constantly at war with other christians.Its one hellava vile spiteuful, vengeful, immoral goodless, spiritual lessm bloody doctrine!

  • shaheed-yahudi

    F I F A – W O R L D – C U P – 2 0 1 0:

  • mmachu

    The only good christian is a non practicing one.

  • DebChatterjee

    There is a serious issue here. I distinguish between Christ’s message and what we know as Christianity.The Christianity we see was neither Christ nor his Apostles formulation. It was emperor Constantin on his deathbed around 100 A.D. who called a meeting called “Council of Nicea”. At that meeting it was simply bribery and power politics going around. The agnostics were marginalized and only the gospels of Mark, Mathew and John were accepted. All other gospels were rejected as heresies.Thus, as a Hindu I have no problem with Christ’s message of forgiveness and compassion. Many Hindu saints have accepted Jesus Christ as “Son of God” with spiritual powers to heal the sick, help the needy and raise the dead (Lazarus). I have problems with what I call as “Constantinism” aka modern version of “Christinaity” which promotes racism based on religious exclusivity. This is the version of Christianity that Spidermean2 follows. This is same as that of Islam who promote exclusivity with the more dangerous addition: the sword.I am quite amazed to see the rise of fundamentalist Christianity, and I just tell myself that Thomas Jefferson was deist. (One who has a reasoned belief in the existence of Divinity.)This is not the USA that Jefferson and other founding fathers envisioned. Did they ?

  • John1263

    I don’t care if creepy Kenneth Jindal is a satanist and palin lite is wiccan, what is distrubing about them is not their religious professions, but their membership in the cult of st. regan the clueless. These are dangerous extremists in their political views and that is what matter with a politician. Who gives a rats backside what religious insitution they attend, as long as their policy ideas make sense. And theirs clearly do not. haley is like palin without the benefit of seeing russia from her house or the television sportscaster face. The only two credentials palin can rightfully claim as positives. And creepy Kenneth is like a thin dark rush limbaugh.

  • blinwilly

    we would do well to become a little more aware of christian militancy that marches to war against any evil but it’s own. Norman Mailer.

  • mmachu

    The vast majority of Americans are good because the vast majority do not go to church nor are they very religious. To the degree they practice Christianity less, they are better for it.Thank the Lord for that!

  • Afraid4USA

    WAPO really needs to start moderating these posts. There’s one aspect of Hinduism that is irreconcilable with American values: the caste system. I would not vote for a Hindu, unless he or she abjures this belief, but then I would think they would have to abjure Hinduism entirely. I see these Hindu Americans wearing caste marks on their foreheads living in America, making God knows what amount of money, and I want to tell them to either wipe off the caste mark or go back to their backwards country, whose development has been crippled by the caste system. You can’t have it both ways.

  • mmachu

    Afraid4USA,Y’all need to stop wearing your caste mark, the cross!

  • mmachu

    To the degree Americans are less christian, they are good!

  • vigor

    “a society that privileges pluralism, that no one religion has the monopoly on Truth, and that Hindus, Sikhs”Republican voters do not agree; they insist that THEIR religion has the monopoly on Truth, and noone else’s religion is legitimate.That is why Jindal and Haley capitulated.or they would not have won.

  • roscym1

    Interesting that the progressives of SC and LA are tooting their openmindedness and tolerance by electing Jindal and Haley. If they had remained in the natal religions, despite any other abilities, they would not have a snowball chance in hell of being elected. I’m sure the teabaggers inc will push to repeal Article VI of the Constitution that says there will be no religious test for public office.

  • vigor

    “True Christians were loved by the Indian natives simply because Christianity means spreading goodness.”"All the idiots should ponder on this.”"When will the idiots learn…”"When will the idiots start learning that they are idiots?”keep spreadin’ the goodness…(but I think you’ve completely missed the point of Christianity.)Note to Republicans:

  • DebChatterjee

    The case is indeed worrying. Unless you are a conservative Christian, you cannot win in politics.The problem with these garden variety of Christian fundamentalists (lineups of Pat Robertson club 007) is that their “guru” whom they worship, Jesus Christ, was above all such petty fundamentalism and preached for humanity. Combining politics with (organized) religion, Christianity, is against the ethics of what Christ apparently preached: “Give Caesar what’s unto Caesar, give Lord what’s unto Lord”. (Gospel of Mark).These fundamentalists (of the Christo-Islamic variety) are showing that USA is not for religious freedom – which is a part of the basis of foundation of USA. While I am in support of Piyush “Bobby” Jindal and Namrata “Nikki” Haley’s (maiden Randhawa) political ascent, I agree with the broader message that Dr. Shukla advances on his blogsite. It’s very disturbing.If Jesus freaks like Spidermean2 can accuse Hindus of being associated with the caste system, and falsely accuse that caste system has divine sanctions, then as non-Christians (who respect Christ and agree with his universal message), I would state caste in USA is created by barring Jews and Hindus from achieving political mileage unless they convert. Of course, unlike Mohammedans, Christians do not have anything equivalent like “Sword of Allah”.

  • barferio

    So spidey, real christians live by “”Love thy neighbor as thyself”.This means you aren’t a real christian obviously. Nobody I’ve seen in a long life is as filled with hatred of is neighbors as you.You don’t even live by your own claimed faith, yet you blast everyone else who doesn’t either.what a sick little degenerate you are.

  • spidermean2

    Spreading goodness also means telling the truth. Idiots need to be told that they are sick in the head.

  • mmachu

    To the degree Americans are less christian, they are good!The only good American christian is a non religious christian American. The moment he becomes a born again, he becomes evil!

  • mmachu

    Christianity not unlike Islam requires that its adherents abdicate their moral responsibility to a silly book. They then become immoral accountable to no one but their mythological green goblin

  • spidermean2

    mmachu wrote “The moment he becomes a born again, he becomes evil!”The Lord is always right. He said not to give pearls to pigs coz they will only rend you. They would always love the mud they wallow into.

  • mmachu

    Even after living together for 300 years and even after the African Americans converted to christianity, they go to their own black churches and they do generally do not intermarry. Christianity is an immoral religion that never helped these people and did not inoculate them from ethnic cleansing the American Indians, stop Practicing Slavery, 1000′s of lynchings and racism. The bible Belt because of their christian religious indoctrination, keeps them immoral. the KKK white supremacists and the present day christian supremacists are bred here like maggots.

  • spidermean2

    What was the civil war all about then. Were it not Christians who freed the blacks from slavery? Remember that the South was occupied by worldly people while the north was occupied by the Mayflower Pilgrims. It was only in the late 1800 that the south truly converted to true Christianity.Today, the reverse has happened. The north is now occupied by worldly folks.Is there no cure to your stupidity?

  • spidermean2

    Let’s face it, the Dalits are not my invention. Hinduism teaches it.What you attribute to Christianity does not exist in the Bible. “Love thy neighbor as thyself”.Christianity teaches it. How about Hinduism? Is there a commandment in Hinduism to discriminate the Dalits? Yes there is.Case close.

  • mmachu

    “How about Hinduism? Is there a commandment in Hinduism to discriminate the Dalits? Yes there is.”NO THERE IS NOT.Thats why there is no Hindu history of ethincally cleansing the American Indians.Only Christians have the history of Slavery Only Christians have the history of Lynchings.Only Chrsitians have the history of the Holocaust due to your protestant founder Martin Luthers Antisemitic rantings.Christianity is an immoral vile religion.

  • lepidopteryx

    Forget being elected if you don’t at least give lip service to Christianity.

  • DebChatterjee

    Spidermean2 writes:”America, hands down. And that is because majority of the population embrace the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.”Unfortunately, for Christian religion, the number of people who claim as Christians (religious, regularly Church going, and being told by some priest that asking forgiveness to Christ will make a permanent seat in heaven) is DECREASING. The papal administration in Vatican is much worried so much so that Vatican now accepts existence of aliens from outer space who may have come to earth, and they (Vatican) claim that such phenomenon is similarly described in the Holy Bible (Book of Enoch). So, one might safely conclude that God of the Bible was an alien visitor friom outer space ? With the sexual scandals that surround the church, molestation of young boys and girls by devoted, morally upright Christian priests who deride anything un-Christian, I cannot see anything but hypocrisy on the part of these accusers. By being vitriolic against other religions, show the moral bankruptcy of the Christian faith which seems to lose members in large numbers. Western Europe is abandoning Christianity and it seems that the faith is praying for survival there. With the (Christian) author Sam Harris who wrote END OF FAITH … and LETTER TO A CHRISTIAN NATION relentlessly propagating against evangelical fanaticism of the Christo-Islamic sect, we shall soon see the demise of the popularity of such racist notions tainted with religion.BTW, Spidermean2 you seem to be taking the name of the Lord in vain – to pursue your own hateful agenda – which is not exactly what the Ten Commandments state. And you call yourself a “Christian”. I think you are a spineless member of the Bible thumping groupies – calling themselves emancipated. What a shame ! (I will not bring in the sensible speculations made by Dan Brown in his fictional Davinci Code about Jesus Christ fathering a female child with Mary and then living in France.)And, finally USA is NOT only your country. We (Hindus/Jews/Sikhs/Buddhists/Muslims) are also naturalized American citizens and have equal rights as Jesus freaks like you.

  • spidermean2

    Thee caste system in Hinduism led to existence of the Dalits. This is a fact. Your examples of Christians are not truly Christians if you know what the Bible really teaches.Conversion in christianity is NOT man-made. God makes the conversion. Catholicism, Protestantism and Lutherans don’t preach this kind of Christianity.You are barking on the wrong tree.If you are not a true Christian, you have no idea what is a Christian so please stop spreading the lies.Christianity teaches that all men are created equal. There is no basis in your accusation that Christians discriminate.You should read the meaning of the word FALSE as in false religion or false Christianity.

  • spidermean2

    Dalits in 2010″Despite discrimination laws, many Dalits still suffer from social stigma and political oppression; Dalits are often denied the basic rights of education, housing, property rights, freedom of religion, choice of employment (many Dalits accept payment of less than $1 USD per day), and equal treatment before the law (89% of all court cases involving crimes against Dalits result in acquittals). In 2006, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh acknowledged parallels between “untouchability” and apartheid.” (Wikipedia) Why would anybody vote for somebody upholding this kind of belief system?Indians who still cling to this kind of thinking should go home to their idiotic motherland. When will the time come when classes in India trade places – Dalits being the ruling class and the rest are 3rd class citizens.

  • spidermean2

    This is for the idiots who still think that monkeys are their long lost relatives. Attention: Aseem Shula.There are THREE valid reasons why evolution is false. I hope all evolutionists read this so I don’t keep on repeating myself.Reason no. 1 — it is impossible that a single-celled bacteria can become or transform into a two-celled bacteria or into a multiple-celled organism. There is no available science to explain such a fairy tale. This is the myth of evolution.Reason no. 2 – soil and water existed before any living thing existed. It is impossible that those brainless substances (soil and water) can form by themselves a very complex matter called plants and animals. There is no available science to explain that such a transformation is possible. This is the myth of evolution.Reason no. 3 — Science is the study of nature. Engineering is part of that kind of science. Engineers took many years to extract energy from sunlight and even at this moment they are still scratching their heads how plant leaves have been doing it for eons already. The level of intelligence nature demonstrates is just beyond human intelligence. The only probable explanation is the existence of a Supremely Intelligent Creator. With these THREE valid reasons, I don’t think I mentioned faith or religion. EVOLUTION IS A MYTH BASED ON REASON.

  • mmachu

    When you see a crossPage from the anti-Semitic German children’s book, “Der Giftpilz” (The Poisonous Mushroom)The text reads, “When you see a cross, then think of the horrible murder by the Jews on Golgotha…”(see 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15, “…the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men”)(Source: USHMM)

  • spidermean2

    Somebody should tell the idiots that the First Thanksgiving celebrated in America were performed by true Christians along with Indians where the Mayflower Pilgrims landed.If there were clashes between Indians and other settlers, somebody should tell the idiots that those people were not true Christians.True Christians were loved by the Indian natives simply because Christianity means spreading goodness.Why would somebody vote for someone who thinks men are NOT created equal and cows are more sacred than other humans?When will the idiots start learning that they are idiots? Attention, Aseem Shukla.

  • mmachu

    Americans will not elect someone who is a Hindu or a Sikh.We need to make sure christians in India get the same treatment. Make them convert out of their christian faith if they want to live in India as full citizens.

  • mmachu

    Christians evangelicals are like the Islamists…religious supremacists!

  • mmachu

    Nazi Protestant Church

  • mmachu

    Although Luther did not invent anti-Jewishness, he promoted it to a level never before seen in Europe. Luther bore the influence of his upbringing and from anti-Jewish theologians such as Lyra, Burgensis, (and John Chrysostom, before them). But Luther’s 1543 book, “On the Jews and their lies” took Jewish hatred to a new level when he proposed to set fire to their synagogues and schools, to take away their homes, forbad them to pray or teach, or even to utter God’s name. Luther wanted to “be rid of them” and requested that the government and ministers deal with the problem. He requested pastors and preachers to follow his example of issuing warnings against the Jews. He goes so far as to claim that “We are at fault in not slaying them” for avenging the death of Jesus Christ. Hitler’s Nazi government in the 1930s and 40s fit Luther’s desires to a tee.So vehemently did Luther speak against the Jews, and the fact that Luther represented an honorable and admired Christian to Protestants, that his written words carried the “memetic” seeds of anti-Jewishness up until the 20th century and into the Third Reich. Luther’s Jewish eliminationist rhetoric virtually matches the beliefs held by Hitler and much of the German populace in the 1930s.

  • spidermean2

    mmachu wrote “Make them convert out of their christian faith if they want to live in India as full citizens”When will the idiots learn that Christianity does not mean converting oneself but God does the conversion? It’s a gift from God.”not that of yourself, it is the GIFT of God” (Eph. 2:8)

  • mmachu

    In Mein Kampf, Hitler listed Martin Luther as one of the greatest reformers. And similar to Luther in the 1500s, Hitler spoke against the Jews. The Nazi plan to create a German Reich Church laid its bases on the “Spirit of Dr. Martin Luther.” The first physical violence against the Jews came on November 9-10 on Kristallnacht (Crystal Night) where the Nazis killed Jews, shattered glass windows, and destroyed hundreds of synagogues, just as Luther had proposed. In Daniel Johah Goldhagen’s book, Hitler’s Willing Executioners, he writes: “One leading Protestant churchman, Bishop Martin Sasse published a compendium of Martin Luther’s antisemitic vitriol shortly after Kristallnacht’s orgy of anti-Jewish violence. In the foreword to the volume, he applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day: ‘On November 10, 1938, on Luther’s birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany.’ The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words ‘of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews.’”No apologist can claim that Martin Luther bore his anti-Jewishness out of youthful naivete’, uneducation, or out of unfounded Christianity. On the contrary, Luther in his youth expressed a great optimism about Jewish conversion to Christianity. But in his later years, Luther began to realize that the Jews would not convert to his wishes. His anti-Jewishness grew slowly over time. His logic came not from science or reason, but rather from Scripture and his Faith. His “On the Jews and Their Lies” shows remarkable study into the Bible and fanatical biblical reasoning. Luther, at age 60 wrote this dangerous “little” book at the prime of his maturity, and in full knowledge in support of his beliefs and Christianity.

  • letscheck

    People who do not understand Christianity are the same people who think that someone made another person gay.Unfortunately that is a whole lot of the world population. Correct answer:People who are gay are born gay.People who are Christian are not born Christian, they accept a belief in Christ as the way to the only true God. They make a choice to accept and believe. I know it’s hard, but that is what is. Otherwise there would be no explanation for gays across all cultures no matter what the beliefs of that culture, and no explanation for Christians across all cultures no matter what the beliefs of that culture.No one chooses to be born. No one chooses their brain, emotions,and intellect. People can choose what they believe.

  • spidermean2

    Somebody should tell the idiots that mainline Protestantism is not regarded as true Christianity because their conversion is done thru coercion.Salvation or conversion is a personal matter. It’s a gift from God.True Christians will rule the world because people who try to vanquish them ends up being vanquished.That is the prophecy of God.

  • mmachu

    Christians need to be reminded that Christianity brought the Holocaust. That bigot Martin Luther’s writings about the Jews.Martin Luther’s dirty little book:The christian supremacy lead to the ethinc cleansing of American Indians, Slavery, Lynching.Evem recently we all got to see how christians treated their black community during the Katrina.the white congregation runs away when blacks come to their churches.After 300 years of living together they whites and the blacks hardly marry one another.Christianity is the racist religions of all.

  • mmachu

    Jesus is often portrayed as a white person with blue eyes and third world black people and brown people are asked to pray to this white dude!Pffft! Nice Try!

  • mmachu

    The whole world got to see the christian untouchables treated during the recent Katrina disaster!

  • bobtich

    The midwest and southern Christians caused prohibition to happen, resulting in the organization of crime and out and out law-breaking by most of the citizens of the northeast and far west as well as the great lakes cities. What craziness would they conjure up next if they ever regain political power? It was also an out and out attempt to put down the Catholic and Jewish immigrants in the great cities of the east. The current political ferment in the south and midwest sounds eerily familiar.

  • bpai_99

    Christian bigotry manifests itself as a holier-than-thou attitude towards non-Christians. The Christian bigot has in her head the idea, “I must be right and you must be wrong, because I’m a Christian and you’re not. After all, only Christians can know God.” The doctrine common among many Christians that you can know God only through the mediation of Christ leads many Christians to think that they have a special connection to God that non-Christians lack, leading them to think that they have God’s special favor and non-Christians don’t. This fuels an elitist attitude that can lead directly to bigotry.

  • kirtu

    Dr. Shukla – I’m not so sure that your concerns are accurate. It may be that Bobby Jindal or Nikki Haley felt a need to convert in order to “assimilate” in the perceived Christian dominate society (this also might not be true – only they know for sure). Currently there are 2 Buddhists in Congress (the 111th Congress: 292 Protestant, 161 Catholic, 45 Jewish, 14 Mormon, 7 Orthodox, 7 Other Christian, 2 Buddhist, 2 Muslim, 3 other faiths, 5 unspecified according to a Pew Forum report). In the future we will have Hindu, Jain, Sikh, and Zoroastrian Congresspeople. Americans still care enough about the faith of a presidential and vice-presidential candidate but in general they don’t really care anymore about the personal faith of a candidate for Congress or other offices.

  • spidermean2

    When people embrace stupidity and defend their stupid actions, how are they called?Idiots don’t listen to any good advice.How can somebody embrace a religion (Hinduism) in this modern age when such a religion legalizes slavery and discrimination. Can they not open their eyes? How would they feel if they are ones called Dalits?Dalits in 2010″Despite discrimination laws, many Dalits still suffer from social stigma and political oppression; Dalits are often denied the basic rights of education, housing, property rights, freedom of religion, choice of employment (many Dalits accept payment of less than $1 USD per day), and equal treatment before the law (89% of all court cases involving crimes against Dalits result in acquittals). In 2006, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh acknowledged parallels between “untouchability” and apartheid.” (Wikipedia)

  • spidermean2

    “Love thy neighbor as thyself”I love the Dalits and so I hate the religion which created their situation. Do idiots understand this? Barferio, your stupidity never ends.

  • spidermean2

    When one despise stupidity it is not called discrimination.Stupidity and skin color are not the same.

  • whocares666

    America’s new religious litmus test… only those who flunk the test should advance.

  • PSolus

    “Well, pretty predictably, this thread’s degenerated. Pity, it was looking pretty productive, early on.”What, exactly, is your definition of “productive”?

  • mikepost1

    “Paris is worth a mass”

  • corco02az

    What a silly article.Since when have Americans been required to copy their parent’s religion, culture, cuisine or anything else?”Authentic” Hindus and Sikhs will be elected to the extent that voters believe that the candidates share their interests.If their interests appear to be mainly in what is going on in their native countries or expatriate communities, they won’t be elected. There simply aren’t enough of them concentrated in any one place in the US.

  • Garak

    The Romans were right. Feed the christians to the lions. Before they molest more little boys.What was it Jesus said? Oh, yes, now I remember, “Bugger thy little boys and ye shall be redeemed in me.”

  • bibleburner

    This all goes to show yet again just how foolish the notion of religion is. If you want to believe in fantasy figures (God, Jesus, hairy Mohammed, tooth fairy, bunny rabbit, etc.), more power to you … just don’t foist your beliefs on me. What retards.

  • onthejourney

    faith should not be a litmus test…ability to govern should be

  • areyousaying

    The words “America”, “religion” and “litmus test” do not belong together.

  • rcubedkc

    To me the biggest turn off is some slimey politician, george bush comes to mind, going on and on about their belief in some imaginary god. Look what good it did us to elect such an idiot who claims it was god’s will that he was elected. That clown ruined our country.On another note, I will never vote for a muzlum. They have proven time and again that they cannot be both an American and a muzlum.

  • Carstonio

    I don’t think it’s the place of Shukla or anyone else to criticize Jindal and Haley for “denying” their religious heritages – what religions they choose to follow are their choices and no one else’s. But Shukla is right to criticize the religious litmus test that these candidates have endured, where converts to Christianity who come from other cultures are expected to prove their faithfulness or allegiance to the religion. As long as a politician doesn’t follow Mike Huckabee in using sectarian doctrine as a basis for lawmaking, the politician’s religious affiliation shouldn’t matter. It would be just as wrong for Haley to use Sikh doctrine that way as to use Christian doctrine.

  • paris1969

    “Haley endured ludicrous, unsubstantiated allegations of infidelity,..” … what was ludicrous about the allegations about Haley? No one has proven them to be wrong!

  • DebChatterjee

    Spidermean2 wrote:”How can somebody embrace a religion (Hinduism) in this modern age when such a religion legalizes slavery and discrimination. …….?”How can anyone in the USA (a first world, hi-tech country) embrace Christianity when priests in churches sexually molest small altar boys and have committed other sexual crimes ? Isn’t Christian religion condoning with sexual molestation of children ?

  • DebChatterjee

    Corco02az wrote:”Since when have Americans been required to copy their parent’s religion, culture, cuisine or anything else?”Where does it state that Americans are required by law to renounce their ancestral practices ?The remainder of your post smacks of religious bigotry. Looks as if that likes of you still live in the Dark ages of Christian religion when it was a heresy to say anything against the Church. Thus your body is in 21st century USA while your brain is in the 16th century Europe.Are most Christian voters in USA are like you ?

  • Secular

    I am ambivalent about these two Pols. I am as they used to call us here in the south Yellow Dog Democrat. Of course most of the have turned into Yellow Dog Republicans now. These two are really nothing but the Carpet Baggers to the core. In this 21st century a Rhode Scholar cum Brown graduate proudly claims he had performed Exorcism and swears by it would right away lose my consideration period. In case of Ms. Halley is someone who makes virtue of exchanging one set of delusional fables with another set is always a suspect. My hunch about her is that she is just playing the Xian card so she can get elected. Who can really blame her in such decrepit state as South Carolina, which still demands acknowledging the myths of supernatural existence, a woman has gotta do what a woman has gotta do, to get elected. nonetheless she is a carpet bagger, not worthy of my consideration. And Sistah Sara endorsement, sealed the deal on her for me.Coming next to all the Hindu fundies, lurking in the shadows, who have come out. Hinduism is not any better than the three desert religions and their offshoot. All religions are based on vile delusional books of fables. If they have talking serpents and burning bushes, you have flying your monkeys and virgin births out the Wazoo. My friends all religions are just that decrepit. Of course there is gradation in degree. Insofar as that goes islam is the most decrepit religion, followed by Judaism – which is of course tempered by nearly 2000 years of persecution.

  • Ravi4

    Hinduism is the most violent, evil of all religions. hindu gods and goddesses used to fight with each other and hindus do the same.. check gujarat massacre, 1947 massacre, orissa massacre, Caste system, untouchability is still practised by hindusMore than 160 million people in India are considered “Untouchable”—people tainted by their birth into a caste system that deems them impure, less than human.Human rights abuses against these people, known as Dalits, are legion. A random sampling of headlines in mainstream Indian newspapers tells their story: “Dalit boy beaten to death for plucking flowers”; “Dalit tortured by cops for three days”; “Dalit ‘witch’ paraded naked in Bihar”; “Dalit killed in lock-up at Kurnool”; “7 Dalits burnt alive in caste clash”; “5 Dalits lynched in Haryana”; “Dalit woman gang-raped, paraded naked”; “Police egged on mob to lynch Dalits”.See:

  • Ravi4

    A dalit girl, Asha Katiya, 15, has told the police that when she refused to drop a rape charge against an upper-caste youth, she was burnt alive by the alleged rapist when she was sleeping. It happened at Tuesday night.After making the statement before the police, Asha died of her burns at a hospital in Pipariya on Wednesday. She named Chhote singh Rajput before dying that he had told her to change the statement in court otherwise, he will kill her.The girl’s mother, Shashibai, also said that he threatened her daughter as I will burn you, set your house afire and cut your father into pieces.Read more:

  • Ravi4

    March 25, 2010Hindu Priest slaughters his daughtersA Hindu priest killed himself after sacrificing his three minor daughters to please the Hindu goddess Kali Mata.Moulchand, brother of the deceased, Tekam Das Meghwar, said that his brother apparently slaughtered his three daughters, Parwati, 6, Reena, 4, and Aarti, 1, before slitting his own throat with a sharp knife to impress Kali Mata.”My deceased brother was Hindu priest of Kali Mata and he performed pooja the whole night but in the early morning when power supply failed he slaughtered his three daughters before committing suicide with a sharp weapon,” he said.Source:

  • Ravi4

    According to Hindu scriptures:”Let the head and blood of a human victim be presented on the right 2.2 Karpuradistotra Yajur Veda 30 — [Yajur Veda 30:1-22]

  • Ravi4

    Hinduism is the most violent, evil of all religions. hindu gods and goddesses used to fight with each other and hindus do the same.. check gujarat massacre, 1947 massacre, orissa massacre,Caste system, untouchability is still practised by hindusMore than 160 million people in India are considered “Untouchable”—people tainted by their birth into a caste system that deems them impure, less than human.Human rights abuses against these people, known as Dalits, are legion. A random sampling of headlines in mainstream Indian newspapers tells their story: “Dalit boy beaten to death for plucking flowers”; “Dalit tortured by cops for three days”; “Dalit ‘witch’ paraded naked in Bihar”; “Dalit killed in lock-up at Kurnool”; “7 Dalits burnt alive in caste clash”; “5 Dalits lynched in Haryana”; “Dalit woman gang-raped, paraded naked”; “Police egged on mob to lynch Dalits”.See:

  • shaheed-yahudi

    F I F A – W O R L D – C U P – 2 0 1 0:

  • Secular

    Mr./Ms. Dahiya you wrote:Are you kidding me? You think Dawkins’s lack of harshness is some kind of implicit approval of Hinduism? Dawkins clearly states in his books the reason he picks on the three desert religions is because he is most familiar with them. Did you read any of your scriptures, say Manu, or Ramayana, or Mahabharata, or Bhgavatam. Those are just as despicable as OT, NT, Koran. The stories in them may be more colorful and do make a good read, but are as vile as they can be. The abandonment of Sita by Rama is as despicable as Avaram trying to sacrifice his son. For every stupid and vile story in those three books I will find you one your books just as despicable and vile. So you get off your high horse about it. All religion, by that I mean all religion is stupid and vile, they all should have been left in the dust heap of history, just like Alchemistry.

  • Indian51

    Thanks RAV14 for educating us about Hinduism and its atrocities. I am a Dalit and I know the atrocities committed against the lower castes by the upper caste Hindus. The way these upper castes people treat the lower castes is worse than slavery. It’s inhuman. Then these vile people say that Hinduism is tolerant, peaceful, bla bla. Shame on them.

  • Dahiya

    Aseem is absolutely right. And the dog barking below citing fake newspaper reports about dalits is just that – a dog. Peope should understand that the word “dalit” is usually used by media to sensationalize news. Most dalits are happy in India and millionaires like Mayawati.

  • Dahiya

    Hinduism is the MOST tolerant religion in this world. Even an atheist can be a Hindu, as the concept of a creator god is not supreme. It’s the idea of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ (which is bound to change with passage of time), which is of supreme importance in Hinduism. That’s why most of the western atheists like Richard Dawkins are not too harsh on Hinduism. Anybody hating Hinduism or feeling insecure with it has a personal and political interest, not a genuine religous or intellectual one.

  • Dahiya

    It was such a shame to see US lawmakers raising an ugly din when a Hindu priest chanted shlokas in the senate. But being a tolerant religion, Hinduism will survive these litmus tests and prove itself to be an asset for the USA.

  • Carstonio

    The issue isn’t about the merits or faults of any of the religions, or about comparing one religion to another. The issue is that religious affiliation shouldn’t be used as a political litmus test regardless of the religion involved.

  • Ravi4

    So those italians should be expressing the same towards sonia, wife of rajiv gandhi as she married a hindu according to hindu rituals and accepted hinduism.. No?She has kicked her parent’s faith and should be condemned by all christians.. No?Good to see italians aren’t like uncivilized idiots

  • Ravi4

    Hinduism is the most violent, evil of all religions. hindu gods and goddesses used to fight with each other and hindus do the same.. check gujarat massacre, 1947 massacre, orissa massacre.Caste system, untouchability is still practised by hindusAnd they come here (to USA) preaching More than 160 million people in India are considered “Untouchable”—people tainted by their birth into a caste system that deems them impure, less than human.Human rights abuses against these people, known as Dalits, are legion. A random sampling of headlines in mainstream Indian newspapers tells their story: “Dalit boy beaten to death for plucking flowers”; “Dalit tortured by cops for three days”; “Dalit ‘witch’ paraded naked in Bihar”; “Dalit killed in lock-up at Kurnool”; “7 Dalits burnt alive in caste clash”; “5 Dalits lynched in Haryana”; “Dalit woman gang-raped, paraded naked”; “Police egged on mob to lynch Dalits”.See:

  • Ravi4

    idiots like dahiya treat dalits (people born in lower castes) as untouchables, dogs. and they claim their religion as peaceful. how pathetic!

  • Ravi4

    Hindu Caste System is not just Rac-ism, but it is much more Vicious, Venomous, Evil and Cruel; Caste System is Rac-ism, Fasc-ism and Naz-ismIt has been frequently written about these days and even the so-called intellectuals and the social scientists in CASTE INDIA keep saying with absolute arrogance that ‘The Caste System cannot be clubbed with Rac-ism because Caste System is not Rac-ism and also this is the “internal problem of India” and therefore the world community cannot and should not discuss the hindu Caste System in “The United Nations Conference Against Rac-ism, Rac-ial Discri-mination, Xen-ophobia and Related Intolerance held in Durban, South Africa “. This only shows how much these so-called hindu intellectuals and social scientists are immersed in the evil teachings of HINDU CULT and thus adamantly adhere to the appalling intellectual dishonesty. They are such intellectual prostitutes by their conspiracy of deafening silence always maintain that they are ready and willing to prostitute their so-called intelligence to protect their ill-gotten benefits out of an unique hindu evil and inhuman system of dreadful and grisly Caste System. By maintaining iron-fisted arrogance of upholding this evil Caste System, the venomous manifestation of the barbarous hindu Cult, these evil hindu creatures want the perpetuation and the continuation of the most heinous and unspeakable vicious crimes, atroities, and abuses against humanity at any cost. And the most heinous and ferocious practice of untouchability that is being imposed on the desperately innocent citizens of Caste India by the EVIL CASTE SYSTEM of the barbarous hindu Cult is the daily occurrence in Caste India at free will and at ease.

  • Vikramaditya

    RAV14 is a troll. It is true that the lower castes have been disadvantaged. However, caste system itself has become corrupted and anamorphic over thousands of years. Once, a “low caste” forest dwelling robber Valmiki became a highly respected sage. As did Matanga, and Shabri. Lord Krishna (today he would be called a “low caste” and be a target for soul harvesting) himself bowed to and acknowledged “born-of-a-low-caste” Vidur as a great soul, and glorified him as the wisest man of his time. There are innumerable such instances. Originally the caste system was neither hereditary nor rigid. Notwithstanding the disadvantages they have had to face owing to corruption of the caste system, in more recent times, lower castes are getting empowered and have risen to positions of power and respect. While there is still work remaining, over time, change and reform is taking root. Sadly, anti-Hindu fascists like rav14 and his ilk use the caste system to expound their deep prejudices against Hinduism.I would recommend readers to read this post for a good understanding of Hinduism:

  • Vikramaditya

    The hate-peddling troll RAVI4 is good only at copy-pasting. His comments are a blatant copy-paste of writings of another of his tribe, a fellow hate peddler called Velu Annamalai (a simple web search will confirm this). This person Velu Annamalai has called derided Mahatma Gandhi and called him a racist among other similar adjectives. I am sure astute readers will judge for themselves the veracity of materials provided by such a person.I would suggest readers (other than trolls and hate peddlers like RAVI4) to read:

  • Ravi4

    I came from a purely Hindu family where we were always taught to regard ourselves (i.e. women) as beings who were eventually to be married off and have children and serve the husband – whether he was kind or not. Other than this, I found that there were a lot of things which really oppressed women, such as:If a woman was widowed, she would always have to wear a white sari (costume), eat vegetarian meals, cut her hair short, and never re-marry. The bride always had to pay the dowry (bridal money) to the husband’s family. And the husband could ask for anything, irrespective of whether the bride would have difficulty giving it.Not only that, if, after marriage, she was not able to pay the full dowry, she would be both emotionally and physically tortured, and could end up being a victim of “kitchen death” where the husband, or both the mother-in-law and the husband, try to set fire to the wife while she is cooking or is in the kitchen and try to make it look like an accidental death. More and more of these instances are taking place. The daughter of a friend of my own father’s had the same fate last year!In addition to all this, men in Hinduism are treated literally as among the gods. In one of the religious Hindu celebrations, unmarried girls pray for and worship an idol representing a particular god (Shira) so that they may have husbands like him. Even my own mother had asked me to do this. This made me see that the Hindu religion, which is based on superstitions and things that have no manifest proof but were merely traditions which oppressed women, could not be right.Noor, Ex-hindu

  • Vikramaditya

    I would further like to point out 1 more thing. RAVI4 has accused me of (1)being a troll (2)using multiple identities in this thread (3)being a Hindu.

  • Vikramaditya

    This keeps getting better and better. “RAVI4″ or “Noor Ex-Hindu” accuses me of (1)being an upper caste Hindu (2)calling people born in lower castes as dogs and untouchables.Noor has constantly ignored my points and instead of debating using logic, reasoning and specific references has tried to attack my credibility. If that wasn’t enough, she now makes a discriminatory remark by accusing me of being an upper caste Hindu. Unfortunately a prejudiced (and hate filled demented) mind will only see what it wants to see.I don’t care who “Ravi4″ is. Might be Noor, might be Nevile, might be Nicole. Might be Navin. But this person needs to get IT’s head checked before IT causes serious problems to ITSELF or to other around IT. I won’t be surprised if this “RAVI4″ some day turns out to be another Major Hasan or Faisal Shahzad.

  • Secular

    Vikramaditya Wrote:Are you kidding me? Have you read Ramayana at all? First of all the whole thing is just a work fiction, so there never were two people called Rama or Sita. It is your belief that the fairy tale is true and the characters are true. Though my language uses descriptions as facts, i am not conceding that. That said the fact that you all believe it to be true and that there is something of ethical values damns your religion. That said here I go.1. After defeating Ravana, Rama asks Sita to walk thru the fire to prove her fidelity to this jerk Rama. My question to you all, how many of your wives will agree to any kind of fidelity test after she had been kidnapped? I just wonder how many of you think it would be the right thing to ask of a spouse to take this fidelity test on reunion, after such an ordeal. That was done again in name of his damn royal duty.2. Then he brings her to Ayodhya and fornicates with her. This great dog king, sends spies to spy on his own subjects. When “W” did this I wonder what your thoughts were about it. Then the spy comes back and reports to him that a drunken launderer beats up his wife for coming late and abuses her and say he is not taking her back as Rama did with Sita. So this dog king of yours throws his pregnant wife, who had been loyal to him during her ordeal during kidnapping, because he wants to sink down to the level of a drunken Launderer. That was this pond scum’s duty to perform.Vikramaditya are you kidding me about the duty over his gratification? These are the morals of Hindu scripture.Then you say there are only 6 vile verses in Manusmriti. Have you even read 6 verses from Manu? It is probable that there are 6 verses that would pass without any criticism. If you had breakfast and read this book it is hard to keep it down, Your breakfast steak would come out right away. You claim the caste system was very flexible or something. Have you read the creation myth in Manu’s book? It says Brahmins came from Purusha’s Eyes, Kshatriyas from the shoullders, Vysyas from the belly and Sudras from the feet. Therefore the sudras were meant to be of service to the above three castes. SO you all the decrepit system was instituted from day one. So stop B#$%S*$^ing. If you don’t know your scripture read the damn thing before you started mouthing eloquence about how tolerant, etc your religion is. It is no less nor no more despicable than the next one. All religion is unadulterated crap.

  • Vikramaditya

    Turns out “RAVI4″ has copy-pasted about “Noor” (sic) from an Islamist hate-mongering fascist site: Clearly creatures like “RAVI4″ who live under bridges have nothing else to do.WP should start moderating comment and make it compulsory for commenters to provide real names to prevent trolls like “RAVI4″ from degrading what was initially a meaningful debate into a Jihadi diatribe.

  • Secular

    Noor, Ex-hindu:You found Hindu treatment of women despicable so you became a Muslim. So you are now wearing a bee-keeper suit and staying within th efour walls of your husband’s house and praying to Allah that your husban does not send you an SMS saying “Talaq Talaq Talaq”. Off the frying pan into the fire. Brilliant, takes the words right out of my mouth. Exchanging one set of stupid, despicable fairy tales for another set of even worse fairy tales, leaves me wondering, if you are playing with whole deck. Why don’t you watch this

  • Vikramaditya

    Re: SECULAR part 1

  • Vikramaditya

    RE: Secular part 2It is understandable that why a steak eating Secular feels the need to make hateful invectives on the Hindu deity Rama and on Hinduism in general. Sadly, Stalinists like them instead of partaking in a meaningful debate feel the chronic need to use debasing slangs which go against public forum etiquette.

  • Ravi4

    VIKRAMADITYA , you fool .. when you can use a statement of some christian becoming hindu, aren’t you doing a Copy-paste from other site?You are such an idiot who thinks you can do everything and denies the same to others

  • Indian51

    Upper caste Hindus are the most corrupt and racist in the world. A survey by Transparency International, a global anti-corruption group, listed India on top of its Bribe Payers Index. This on top of the Most Corrupt Nation in the World award. Some other facts: According to World Health Organization, about 675 million people in India defecate publicly. About 20 million fetuses were killed by upper caste Hindus in a ten-year period because they were females. A recent Lancet, British medical journal, study concluded that more than 100,000 young Hindu women were killed in bride-burning fires in India every single year because they did not bring big dowry. Upper caste Hindus are also the worst kind of racists. I see that every day. Remember, the racial bias law suit filed by the hotel staff in Boston because former Prime Minister Vajpayee did not want blacks to serve or cook for him when he visited the US. India is also on top of prostitution and sending women and young girls for immoral traffic to foreign countries.

  • mmachu

    Ambedkar was a traitor.. During the British invasion.,. this Benedoict arnjold colluded with the Brits.Today, many of the likes of Ambedkar et al convert vfor $15. They are realy cheap b astards

  • mmachu

    People who deffecate in the streets of India are the Dalits. Why do you think we consider them the untouchables?

  • Indian51

    Vast majority of Indians/Hindus are decent people. But the upper caste Hindists who belong to the Bajrang Dal, VHP, RSS, Ram Sena and other elements are violent, horrible people. Nobel laureate Amartya Sen had these extremists in his mind when he said, “The Hindu militant presents India as a country of unquestioning idolaters, delirious fanatics, belligerent devotees, and religious murderers.”

  • mmachu

    Dalits can be bought for $15. Thjey sucki sucki for $5. Thats why we consider them the untouchables. They are 300 millionhs of them…and the Uppercaste are less than 3% of India. Yet, the majoirty of the backward class wants handout. even after 65 years of handouts they still are groving on the flooer deffecating on the streets. Even after conerting to Christianity for $15, they sill live the same dirty lifestyle.They are the dirty people of India with the voictim mentality for their lack of bootstrapping and bettering themselves.They are basically losers blaming everyone on this earth for thyeir own failure. They are ugly people too.

  • Vikramaditya

    Re: SecularRe: Ravi4

  • mmachu

    Dalit christians in India are dirty people.. They are traitors..no one in India trusts them..They work towards harming India.Dalit christians are worse than Pakistanies.

  • mmachu

    Dalit christians are more deadly to India than even the Pakistani Islamists.

  • mmachu

    I would rather the secular and moderate Pakistanies come and live in India rather than these dalit christian converts. They are enemies of India.

  • mmachu

    Dalit christian haters are like the AIDS virus of India

  • Secular

    Mr. Vikramaditya:Besides your silly defense of Rama is mind boggling. You claim Rama made some great sacrifice when he mercilessly abandoned Sita.1) You claim he was upholding the law. Pray tell what was that law?2) What did Rama sacrifice here? It is Sita who bore the brunt of that law, whatever it was. I asked in my earlier posts how many people think that law is right, you dodged that question altogether. 3) If there was such a law, why didn’t Rama rescind it. Clearly it was an unjust law. Even a mere mortal like Lincoln waged a war to get rid of Slavery in America. Same goes for RamMohan Roy led a crusade to abolish Suttee.4) I don’t understand your deity, cannot even muster the strength to get rid of unjust laws. What good is the incarnation, all it does is perpetuate the status quo. 5) The progress made by the human kind is great but it has come about despite teh scriptures not because of them. It is the Zeitgeist. That is the reason why we are so hostile to religion.6) Besides these scriptures are riddled with contradiction after contardiction and include huge Fantasms. Like form Ramayana Hanuman’s Semen (or was it his sweat) falls into the mouth of fish gives birth to his unfornicated son (yet another virgin birth). Can you keep a straight face and try to tell us here on this forum all that is true, Come on. You are indeed smarter than that. Dont try to tell me that I ma taking thes out of context or that it was metaphor. If it is I wonder what the metaphor is.7) All religions are rubbish, made crap to discriminate and oppress those who are not of the same ilk. It is probably by far the most decrepit part of the evolutionary mechanisms at work amongst humans. We also have the evolutionary mechanism to empathize, reason, etc, etc. Lets use them to and shed these baser instinct of evolution.

  • Ravi4

    The dalits account for 165 million of India’s one billion-plus human population. The population of cows is pegged at 206 million.There are more cows than dalits in India.The cows, therefore, have more rights than dalits.For instance, you can ki-ll dalits before thousands of witnesses and get away with it.But the imagined murder of a cow will not be suffered.The state promotes the drinking of cow urine and dung, while dalits are forced to eat the sh-it and piss of caste Hindus.Ambedkar was, perhaps, ironically, aware of the literalness of his metaphor.Hindus have proved that they can not only eat dung and piss but digest it too.However, while he was right about what brahminic Hinduism could not ever absorb, what he perhaps did not reckon with was that latter-day dalits would be forced to eat the sh-it and piss of caste Hindus.

  • Ravi4

    Hinduism is the most violent, evil of all religions. hindu gods and goddesses used to fight with each other and hindus do the same.. check gujarat massacre, 1947 massacre, orissa massacre,Caste system, untouchability is still practised by hindusMore than 160 million people in India are considered “Untouchable”—people tainted by their birth into a caste system that deems them impure, less than human.Human rights abuses against these people, known as Dalits, are legion. A random sampling of headlines in mainstream Indian newspapers tells their story: “Dalit boy beaten to death for plucking flowers”; “Dalit tortured by cops for three days”; “Dalit ‘witch’ paraded naked in Bihar”; “Dalit killed in lock-up at Kurnool”; “7 Dalits burnt alive in caste clash”; “5 Dalits lynched in Haryana”; “Dalit woman gang-raped, paraded naked”; “Police egged on mob to lynch Dalits”.See:

  • Ravi4

    Hindu Caste System is not just Rac-ism, but it is much more Vicious, Venomous, Evil and Cruel; Caste System is Rac-ism, Fasc-ism and Naz-ismIt has been frequently written about these days and even the so-called intellectuals and the social scientists in CASTE INDIA keep saying with absolute arrogance that ‘The Caste System cannot be clubbed with Rac-ism because Caste System is not Rac-ism and also this is the “internal problem of India” and therefore the world community cannot and should not discuss the hindu Caste System in “The United Nations Conference Against Rac-ism, Rac-ial Discri-mination, Xen-ophobia and Related Intolerance held in Durban, South Africa “.This only shows how much these so-called hindu intellectuals and social scientists are immersed in the evil teachings of HINDU CULT and thus adamantly adhere to the appalling intellectual dishonesty.They are such intellectual prostitutes by their conspiracy of deafening silence always maintain that they are ready and willing to prostitute their so-called intelligence to protect their ill-gotten benefits out of an unique hindu evil and inhuman system of dreadful and grisly Caste System. By maintaining iron-fisted arrogance of upholding this evil Caste System, the venomous manifestation of the barbarous hindu Cult, these evil hindu creatures want the perpetuation and the continuation of the most heinous and unspeakable vicious crimes, atroities, and abuses against humanity at any cost.And the most heinous and ferocious practice of untouchability that is being imposed on the desperately innocent citizens of Caste India by the EVIL CASTE SYSTEM of the barbarous hindu Cult is the daily occurrence in Caste India at free will and at ease.

  • mmachu

    Ambedkar copied the US constitution and never acknowledged that the Indian constitution is a slghtly modified version of the US constitution. Ambedkar violated copy right rules and never acknowldege..he passed off others work as his own.Ambedkar is a wh0re. Ambedkar asl o sold his own daughter into pr0stitutiin.

  • mmachu

    Today’s red light districts in Bombay is full of christian dalits. They have no ethics or sense of personal hygiene.thats why they are called untouchables.

  • mmachu

    Dalit christians of India will anything that moves on the earth. They are unclean people.. noone wants to associate with these dirty people..thats why Syrian christians and many Catholics avoid the dalit christians who are traitors to India.

  • Ravi4

    Hindu Caste System is not just Rac-ism, but it is much more Vicious, Venomous, Evil and Cruel; Caste System is Rac-ism, Fasc-ism and Naz-ismIt has been frequently written about these days and even the so-called intellectuals and the social scientists in CASTE INDIA keep saying with absolute arrogance that ‘The Caste System cannot be clubbed with Rac-ism because Caste System is not Rac-ism and also this is the “internal problem of India” and therefore the world community cannot and should not discuss the hindu Caste System in “The United Nations Conference Against Rac-ism, Rac-ial Discri-mination, Xen-ophobia and Related Intolerance held in Durban, South Africa “.This only shows how much these so-called hindu intellectuals and social scientists are immersed in the evil teachings of HINDU CULT and thus adamantly adhere to the appalling intellectual dishonesty.They are such intellectual prostitutes by their conspiracy of deafening silence always maintain that they are ready and willing to prostitute their so-called intelligence to protect their ill-gotten benefits out of an unique hindu evil and inhuman system of dreadful and grisly Caste System. By maintaining iron-fisted arrogance of upholding this evil Caste System, the venomous manifestation of the barbarous hindu Cult, these evil hindu creatures want the perpetuation and the continuation of the most heinous and unspeakable vicious crimes, atroities, and abuses against humanity at any cost.And the most heinous and ferocious practice of untouchability that is being imposed on the desperately innocent citizens of Caste India by the EVIL CASTE SYSTEM of the barbarous hindu Cult is the daily occurrence in Caste India at free will and at ease.

  • mmachu

    Dalit christians of India will eat anything that moves on the earth. They are unclean people.. noone wants to associate with these dirty people..thats why Syrian christians and many Catholics avoid the dalit christians who are traitors to India.

  • mmachu

    Dalits are considered unclean and un patriotic cause they convert to which ever religion pays them $15. They would join with any country that brings harm to India and Indians. Many of these dalits join with China and are the Maoists of India.Thats why they are considered the Untouchables.Would you ant to associate with someone who is traitorous to your country?

  • mmachu

    Dalits are considered unclean and un patriotic cause they convert to which ever religion pays them $15. They would join with any country that brings harm to India and Indians. Many of these dalits join with China and are the Maoists of India.That’s why they are considered the Untouchables.Would you ant to associate with someone who is traitorous to your country?

  • Ravi4

    Hindu Caste System is not just Rac-ism, but it is much more Vicious, Venomous, Evil and Cruel; Caste System is Rac-ism, Fasc-ism and Naz-ismIt has been frequently written about these days and even the so-called intellectuals and the social scientists in CASTE INDIA keep saying with absolute arrogance that ‘The Caste System cannot be clubbed with Rac-ism because Caste System is not Rac-ism and also this is the “internal problem of India” and therefore the world community cannot and should not discuss the hindu Caste System in “The United Nations Conference Against Rac-ism, Rac-ial Discri-mination, Xen-ophobia and Related Intolerance held in Durban, South Africa “.This only shows how much these so-called hindu intellectuals and social scientists are immersed in the evil teachings of HINDU CULT and thus adamantly adhere to the appalling intellectual dishonesty.They are such intellectual prostitutes by their conspiracy of deafening silence always maintain that they are ready and willing to prostitute their so-called intelligence to protect their ill-gotten benefits out of an unique hindu evil and inhuman system of dreadful and grisly Caste System. By maintaining iron-fisted arrogance of upholding this evil Caste System, the venomous manifestation of the barbarous hindu Cult, these evil hindu creatures want the perpetuation and the continuation of the most heinous and unspeakable vicious crimes, atroities, and abuses against humanity at any cost.And the most heinous and ferocious practice of untouchability that is being imposed on the desperately innocent citizens of Caste India by the EVIL CASTE SYSTEM of the barbarous hindu Cult is the daily occurrence in Caste India at free will and at ease.

  • Ravi4

    There are some protagonists of Hinduism who say that Hinduism is a very adaptable religion, that it can adjust itself to everything and absorb anything. I do not think many people would regard such a capacity in a religion as a virtue to be proud of, just as no one would think highly of a child because it has developed the capacity to eat dung, and digest it. But that is another matter. It is quite true that Hinduism can adjust itself… can absorb many things. The beef-eating Hinduism (or strictly speaking Brahminism which is the proper name of Hinduism in its earlier stage) absorbed the non-violence theory of Buddhism and became a religion of vegetarianism. But there is one thing which Hinduism has never been able to do – namely to adjust itself to absorb the Untouchables or to remove the bar of Untouchability.– BR Ambedkar

  • Indian51

    Hindus find themselves confused as to why they worship icons created out of clays and stones into the shape of ridiculous half-animal half-human objects with weird stories associated with them. Hindus themselves can’t understand how and why they worship the penis of Shiva or the vagina of Parvati, why Ram allowed his brother Laxman to have sexual relationship with his wife Sita (as depicted in several works of art), how the great lord could be so stupid to spend 12 years preparing the army of monkeys, invade the abductors country, free his wife and then caste a doubt at her chastity (there are stories about the sex life of Ravan with Sita as well and that Luv and Kush were, in fact, Ravan’s sons) and then bury her alive. Hindus and those who study Hinduism are also amazed how five men could keep one wife only because their mother blurted out something stupid and silly without knowing what she is talking about. How the epitome of virtue could gamble away everything he had including his wife (which by the way was shared by his other five brothers). It is also amazing how Krishna, the next avatar could so easily get away with fornication and rape of so many young girls and still get worshipped. How this conniving individual was worshipped despite his record as a sexual predator, a forgery master, a con artist and a troublemaker who incited hate and wars between brothers. Hindu kids are raised with all these myths and lies and their parents insist them to follow these sheer acts of stupidity combined with even more disgusting customs like urine drinking, selling cow urine as a soft drink and sprinkling of cow urine on food. It’s enough to shake vigorously the mind of any straight thinking individual. And then the evil and inhuman caste system, bride burning, burning of widows, fertility treatment for women by Hindu priests inside the secret chambers of temples and prostitution in the name of Gopis of temples. Then there are evil monsters like Narendra Modi and evil organizations like Bajrang Dal, RSS and Shiv Sena murdering innocent people.

  • Ravi4

    VIKRAMADITYA, you fool you are the troll who using another nick “MMACHU ” and you have posted all the rubbish – you have no problem with comments posted using “MMACHU” nick and you would like to moderate whenever hinduism is exposed…

  • Indian51

    The upper caste Hindists are the most ungrateful, corrupt, devious, dishonest, cheating thieves in the world who treat their own people (untouchables and lower caste) like dirt. They hate Muslims and Christians, but work like slaves to please their Christian bosses in the West, or Muslim bosses in the Middle East. They’ve no values and to hide their insecurity and inferiority complex, they engage in hate-filled rants about their superior culture. What a shame!

  • Ravi4

    induism is the most violent, evil of all religions. hindu gods and goddesses used to fight with each other and hindus do the same.. check gujarat massacre, 1947 massacre, orissa massacre.Caste system, untouchability is still practised by hindusAnd they come here (to USA) preachingMore than 160 million people in India are considered “Untouchable”—people tainted by their birth into a caste system that deems them impure, less than human.Human rights abuses against these people, known as Dalits, are legion. A random sampling of headlines in mainstream Indian newspapers tells their story: “Dalit boy beaten to death for plucking flowers”; “Dalit tortured by cops for three days”; “Dalit ‘witch’ paraded naked in Bihar”; “Dalit killed in lock-up at Kurnool”; “7 Dalits burnt alive in caste clash”; “5 Dalits lynched in Haryana”; “Dalit woman gang-raped, paraded naked”; “Police egged on mob to lynch Dalits”.See:

  • Secular

    Vikramaditya:

  • Ravi4

    There are some protagonists of Hinduism who say that Hinduism is a very adaptable religion, that it can adjust itself to everything and absorb anything. I do not think many people would regard such a capacity in a religion as a virtue to be proud of, just as no one would think highly of a child because it has developed the capacity to eat dung, and digest it. But that is another matter. It is quite true that Hinduism can adjust itself… can absorb many things. The beef-eating Hinduism (or strictly speaking Brahminism which is the proper name of Hinduism in its earlier stage) absorbed the non-violence theory of Buddhism and became a religion of vegetarianism. But there is one thing which Hinduism has never been able to do – namely to adjust itself to absorb the Untouchables or to remove the bar of Untouchability.– Dr. B R Ambedkar, the great man who was called “UNTOUCHABLE” by his low caste birth

  • Ravi4

    Hinduism is the most violent, evil of all religions. hindu gods and goddesses used to fight with each other and hindus do the same.. check gujarat massacre, 1947 massacre, orissa massacre.Caste system, untouchability is still practised by hindusAnd they come here (to USA) preachingMore than 160 million people in India are considered “Untouchable”—people tainted by their birth into a caste system that deems them impure, less than human.Human rights abuses against these people, known as Dalits, are legion. A random sampling of headlines in mainstream Indian newspapers tells their story: “Dalit boy beaten to death for plucking flowers”; “Dalit tortured by cops for three days”; “Dalit ‘witch’ paraded naked in Bihar”; “Dalit killed in lock-up at Kurnool”; “7 Dalits burnt alive in caste clash”; “5 Dalits lynched in Haryana”; “Dalit woman gang-raped, paraded naked”; “Police egged on mob to lynch Dalits”.See:

  • mmachu

    Hindus are the new Jews!

  • mmachu

    Martin Luther King Jr once said, don’t judge me by the color of my skin, but the content of my character.That is so true!Here it is, Dalit christian converts and evangelicals are enemies of India. These are people even after 65 years of Quota system who are unable to bootstrap themselves. They are failures/losers who want to blame the Hindus for their miderable dirty lifestyle they maintain. They defacte on the streets, they beg…These are the people who can be bought to sell their own children for $10. They could not resist when Baptists and Pentos offered them $15 to convert and fight the Indians in India.

  • Vikramaditya

    Re: Secular part 1

  • Vikramaditya

    Re: Secular part 2**********************

  • Vikramaditya

    Re: Secular part 1 (Note: for easy readability I am going to refer to the person with the pseudo-name Secular as “he” instead of “he/she”)Secular’s self-righteous intransigence knows no bounds. His apocryphal accusation of “shifting the sands of discussion”, yet constantly making pathetic straw man arguments presents a veritable feast of delectable irony. It also exposes the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of these self-proclaimed rationalists who break the very ethos of rationality, secularism and plurality they appoint themselves guardians of. Such is their Stalinist agenda.Secular’s desperation in equating duty with law is heart-wrenching (sic). Law is “the collection of rules imposed by authority” while duty is a “moral compulsion for ethical action that is innate”. Secular should get some education before making a public spectacle of himself. He further accuses, “You claim that after he had tested Sita in fire, he abolished that custom.”. Readers will note how Secular has conveniently planted the word custom to try and bolster his empty arguments. Speak about “shifting the sands of discussion”. Secular made 2 (among many) distinct assertions (A)the direct assertion of “Agni-Pariksha” as a trespass on Rama’s part (B)the indirect assertion that I claimed the historical or factual veracity of the Ramayana. Readers will see that both accusations are mutually exclusive. A character from a scripture being historically true or false is independent of the nature of the character. Similarly, my elucidation of Rama exchanging the “virtual” Sita for the real Sita as an answer to A is distinct and mutually exclusive from my exposing Secular’s concocted assertion of B by stating that I had never made any claims on the historical or factual veracity of the Ramayana, or otherwise. Yet Secular has conveniently tried to present these two arguments as being mutually inclusive and then used this concocted premise to conveniently propound his prejudicial opinions.

  • Vikramaditya

    Re: Secular part-2Readers will note that out of Secular’s 4 points that he believes theists make I made none. Secular is welcome to make specific co-relations to my comments with his presumptions. And I will provide arguments. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, the Hindu faith allows belief in Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Darwin, Einstein, or in no one but oneself. Secular makes the preposterous assertion that I had claimed Hitler to be an atheist. He is so blind in the dogmatic belief of his supremacist views that he simply cannot see beyond his narrow prejudice. Hitler and Stalin were not who they were because of their religious beliefs or the lack of it, rather due to their steadfast supremacist dogma, quite like Secular himself. No wonder, true to his Stalinist credo, he has been unable to grasp the core pluralist ethos of Hindu Dharma as is evident in the Rg Veda, “Truth is one, the wise call it by many names”, in spite of my repeated references. Secular says I claimed the veracity of the Ramayana. His unending deceit is shameless. Readers will recall who made loud claims about the alleged falsity of Ramayana. Now by Secular’s own argument, the onus is on him to prove his allegation.Secular is a typical self-righteous “look-at-my-secularism” kind of fellow who likes to make loud proclamations of his rationality, secularism, etc., but falls short by a long way when it comes to actual actions. Readers will note his hateful invectives and strident rhetoric directed at the Hindu faith. Last heard, secularism implied separation from religion. Not bawdy calumny on another belief. His strident hatred of Hinduism is very consonant with the Marxo-Stalinist brand of (pseudo)secularism his tribe has so well embraced. Secular claims he is a “rationalist not a dogmatist”. His self-proclaimed rationality is apparent after his pitiful straw man arguments. He is as a big a dogmatic as some religious loonies hallucinating in the imagined infallible superiority of their ideology. No wonder his Stalinist supremacy leads him to ironically make the spurious accusation of “shifting the sands of discussion” in spite of his creating a mountain of logical fallacies. He should dig his own head out of the sand.

  • Ravi4

    Hindu Caste System is not just Rac-ism, but it is much more Vicious, Venomous, Evil and Cruel; Caste System is Rac-ism, Fasc-ism and Naz-ismIt has been frequently written about these days and even the so-called intellectuals and the social scientists in CASTE INDIA keep saying with absolute arrogance that ‘The Caste System cannot be clubbed with Rac-ism because Caste System is not Rac-ism and also this is the “internal problem of India” and therefore the world community cannot and should not discuss the hindu Caste System in “The United Nations Conference Against Rac-ism, Rac-ial Discri-mination, Xen-ophobia and Related Intolerance held in Durban, South Africa “.This only shows how much these so-called hindu intellectuals and social scientists are immersed in the evil teachings of HINDU CULT and thus adamantly adhere to the appalling intellectual dishonesty.They are such intellectual prostitutes by their conspiracy of deafening silence always maintain that they are ready and willing to prostitute their so-called intelligence to protect their ill-gotten benefits out of an unique hindu evil and inhuman system of dreadful and grisly Caste System. By maintaining iron-fisted arrogance of upholding this evil Caste System, the venomous manifestation of the barbarous hindu Cult, these evil hindu creatures want the perpetuation and the continuation of the most heinous and unspeakable vicious crimes, atroities, and abuses against humanity at any cost.And the most heinous and ferocious practice of untouchability that is being imposed on the desperately innocent citizens of Caste India by the EVIL CASTE SYSTEM of the barbarous hindu Cult is the daily occurrence in Caste India at free will and at ease.

  • Ravi4

    Hinduism is the most violent, evil of all religions. hindu gods and goddesses used to fight with each other and hindus do the same.. check gujarat massacre, 1947 massacre, orissa massacre,Caste system, untouchability is still practised by hindusMore than 160 million people in India are considered “Untouchable”—people tainted by their birth into a caste system that deems them impure, less than human.Human rights abuses against these people, known as Dalits, are legion. A random sampling of headlines in mainstream Indian newspapers tells their story: “Dalit boy beaten to death for plucking flowers”; “Dalit tortured by cops for three days”; “Dalit ‘witch’ paraded naked in Bihar”; “Dalit killed in lock-up at Kurnool”; “7 Dalits burnt alive in caste clash”; “5 Dalits lynched in Haryana”; “Dalit woman gang-raped, paraded naked”; “Police egged on mob to lynch Dalits”.See:

  • Secular

    Mr. Vikramaditya:1) The so called agni-pariksha was a guise to exchange the virtual Sita, for the real one.My response to the above three arguments has been:(continued above)

  • Secular

    (Continued from below)1) This begs the question when was the switch made from the real Sita to virtual Sita. By what means would you know that the original switch was made off of Ramayana. These all too much of contrivances for what purpose I fail to see. There is absolutely no moral or ethical lesson to gather from these. I would rather surmise that the ruse of agni-pariksha being switch back is a ltter day addition to the story to be more compliant with the latter day zeitgeist. Besides the switching back and forth itself is unnatural and physically impossible.The rest of your assertions and accusations are total non-sequiters, and merit no responses from. The only issues are the above three points I raised. As far as my hostility goes, it is against all religion. But the truth and righteousness of any religion is independent of my or for that matter any of the detractors’ hostility. Just like the natural laws, which are true on their own merits and not subject to individuals’ opinions of them.

  • mmachu

    Jesus christ is portrayed as a white blonde haird, blue eyed european born in Beathlaham. And the Dalits love it and convert.Only a white man can be the Pope in Vatican and these Dalits convert to Christianity for $15 because of this.Ambedkar collued with the Brits and worked against Gandhi because Gandhi was an evil Hindu but the Brits were good christians.Christianity is allegedly better for these /Dalits since they do not have caste but they these christians have ethnically cleansed American Indians, Enslaved Africans for over 200 years and lynched them on the account of their dark skin…which is totally acceptable to this dalit converts.Now, y’ll know why we consider them the Untouchables? Its their character or lack there off.ROFLAMO!

  • Secular

    MMACHU:

  • mmachu

    Its become PC to not take on these “dalit christians”. These christian evangelicals are riding the coat tails and using these dalits for their own evil purpose. They use the Dalit victimization to promote christianity and derie Hindus.This is not about dalits, its about christian evangelism.RAVI dude is such a christian evangelical evil bugger.

  • Vikramaditya

    Re: Secular part-1

  • Vikramaditya

    Re: Secular part-2

  • Ravi4

    Hinduism is the most violent, evil of all religions. hindu gods and goddesses used to fight with each other and hindus do the same.. check gujarat massacre, 1947 massacre, orissa massacre,Caste system, untouchability is still practised by hindusMore than 160 million people in India are considered “Untouchable”—people tainted by their birth into a caste system that deems them impure, less than human.Human rights abuses against these people, known as Dalits, are legion. A random sampling of headlines in mainstream Indian newspapers tells their story: “Dalit boy beaten to death for plucking flowers”; “Dalit tortured by cops for three days”; “Dalit ‘witch’ paraded naked in Bihar”; “Dalit killed in lock-up at Kurnool”; “7 Dalits burnt alive in caste clash”; “5 Dalits lynched in Haryana”; “Dalit woman gang-raped, paraded naked”; “Police egged on mob to lynch Dalits”.See:

  • Ravi4

    Hindu Caste System is not just Rac-ism, but it is much more Vicious, Venomous, Evil and Cruel; Caste System is Rac-ism, Fasc-ism and Naz-ismIt has been frequently written about these days and even the so-called intellectuals and the social scientists in CASTE INDIA keep saying with absolute arrogance that ‘The Caste System cannot be clubbed with Rac-ism because Caste System is not Rac-ism and also this is the “internal problem of India” and therefore the world community cannot and should not discuss the hindu Caste System in “The United Nations Conference Against Rac-ism, Rac-ial Discri-mination, Xen-ophobia and Related Intolerance held in Durban, South Africa “.This only shows how much these so-called hindu intellectuals and social scientists are immersed in the evil teachings of HINDU CULT and thus adamantly adhere to the appalling intellectual dishonesty.They are such intellectual prostitutes by their conspiracy of deafening silence always maintain that they are ready and willing to prostitute their so-called intelligence to protect their ill-gotten benefits out of an unique hindu evil and inhuman system of dreadful and grisly Caste System. By maintaining iron-fisted arrogance of upholding this evil Caste System, the venomous manifestation of the barbarous hindu Cult, these evil hindu creatures want the perpetuation and the continuation of the most heinous and unspeakable vicious crimes, atroities, and abuses against humanity at any cost.And the most heinous and ferocious practice of untouchability that is being imposed on the desperately innocent citizens of Caste India by the EVIL CASTE SYSTEM of the barbarous hindu Cult is the daily occurrence in Caste India at free will and at ease.

  • Secular

    Mr, Bikramaditya:1) You said Sita held by Ravana was virtual, the test was a apparently a ruse to switch virtual Sita for real one. So I wanted to know the evidence for the initial switch, and when it happened. Actually this reply of yours raises a whole host of questions, for brevity I limited to just two.2) You also said the Dasaradha came back from ashes to admonish Rama and that you claimed as a of greatness of Hinduism. I questioned your claim of greatness and also the total improbability of resurrection.3) To my questioning of the ethics & morality of casting off of Sita. You responded that he was upholding some regal duty. That again begs the question is how that duty became incumbent upon Rama, through the law, or tradition or precedent. I also added even if it were a duty, it was unethical because we wouldn’t expect that of any ruler in this 21st century, So even it was a regal injunction Rama should have condemned it being a deity. You have again ignored these new question engendered by your responses.Mr. Vikramaditya I have been around the block a few times, and have heard these arguments and responses from my friends and elders before, not just related to Hinduism but about islam, Xianity, judaism, Zoratrianism, etc. They all have sidestepped, just like you. But they have done it without the invective.Just remember in scientific method an hypothesis can easily be negated if even a single exception can be found. in your case it is not even exception, the very basic hypothesis has not been established. You have given some plausible answers, which by themselves are not axiomatic truths, so they need to be established. In other words it is not enough to assert that fire test is a ruse for switch back to original Sita. You have now the burden to show that the previous switch took place and that such switch is indeed possible in the real world, just to enumerate a few.

  • Vikramaditya

    Re: Secular PART 1

  • Vikramaditya

    Re: Secular PART 2

  • Secular

    Mr. Vikramaditya:Again the three issues are:1) When was Sita exchanged for virtual Sita, before she was abducted by Ravana. If Rama was already aware of the switcharoo, then why was he lamenting her loss?2) Please provide some kind of proof for dasaradha’s resurrection 12 years after his death and funeral.3) What was that great royal duty that Rama was upholding, when he castaway Sita. Was there any precedent examples of such duty prior to Rama.If you are not able to respond to these above issues. I do not care to debate with you. This challenge is open to any Hindu on this forum to respond. However, if you are going to impute motives to me, I don’t care to continue. You can assume that I am hostile to religion, all religion, and see no merit in them. But the merits of your religion are not a function of my hostility or lack of it.

  • Secular

    Mr. Vikramaditya: You sound like Kurt Wise an Harvard trained Paleontologist, who famously declared if all the evidence in the universe contradicted the scriptures, he would have to choose the scriptures. Just like Richard Dawkins, I refuse to argue with such a dogmatist, who claims that “As I have mentioned multiple times, the nature of a character from a scripture is independent of the factual or historical veracity of the scripture”. I refuse argue with some one who gives a sabbatical to his reasoning faculties when discussing scripture.

  • Indian51

    Remember the untouchable young women from India at the UN, describing their inhuman treatment by the upper caste Hindus. They said they clean the human excrement by their bare hands and carry heavy loads of that excrement on their head. Some of these Hindists have no shame in saying very bad things about them and at the same time these Hindists claim that they are peaceful and tolerant people. I hope these fanatics will be born as untouchables in their next life of reincarnation. I hope you believe in karma.

  • mmachu

    “I hope these fanatics will be born as untouchables in their next life of reincarnation. I hope you believe in karma.”So, maybe the current crop of untouchables were the high castes who were cruel to others.. So THERE!;)

  • Ravi4

    Hindu Caste System is not just Rac-ism, but it is much more Vicious, Venomous, Evil and Cruel; Caste System is Rac-ism, Fasc-ism and Naz-ismIt has been frequently written about these days and even the so-called intellectuals and the social scientists in CASTE INDIA keep saying with absolute arrogance that ‘The Caste System cannot be clubbed with Rac-ism because Caste System is not Rac-ism and also this is the “internal problem of India” and therefore the world community cannot and should not discuss the hindu Caste System in “The United Nations Conference Against Rac-ism, Rac-ial Discri-mination, Xen-ophobia and Related Intolerance held in Durban, South Africa “.This only shows how much these so-called hindu intellectuals and social scientists are immersed in the evil teachings of HINDU CULT and thus adamantly adhere to the appalling intellectual dishonesty.They are such intellectual prostitutes by their conspiracy of deafening silence always maintain that they are ready and willing to prostitute their so-called intelligence to protect their ill-gotten benefits out of an unique hindu evil and inhuman system of dreadful and grisly Caste System. By maintaining iron-fisted arrogance of upholding this evil Caste System, the venomous manifestation of the barbarous hindu Cult, these evil hindu creatures want the perpetuation and the continuation of the most heinous and unspeakable vicious crimes, atroities, and abuses against humanity at any cost.And the most heinous and ferocious practice of untouchability that is being imposed on the desperately innocent citizens of Caste India by the EVIL CASTE SYSTEM of the barbarous hindu Cult is the daily occurrence in Caste India at free will and at ease.

  • big_oil

    Read this story by the BBC which shows how racist Christians are severly oppressing Dalits while pawning the blame off on Hindus:

  • big_oil

    Martin Luther a great Christian leader, in his book “On the Jews and their lies” quotes Jesus in Matthew 12:34, where Jesus called them “a brood of vipers and children of the devil”. The Christian Nazi’s used to show this racist book in their rallies. This Christian hatred of Jews led to 6 million deaths.

  • big_oil

    Caste comes from the Spanish/Portuguese word “casta” and refers to the Catholic casta racist system in South and Central America where races are put on a hierarchy with pure Whites on top (Almost all politicians have been Whites in Mexico and Brazil for example). Also under the horrendous Euro-Christian casta system 10-15 million untouchable Roma (Gypsies) suffer huge discrimation.

  • big_oil

    Ravi4,I hear in Paki land, everything is wonderful.

  • big_oil

    What about riding Al-Burak, the half horse, half human into heaven and marrying a 9 year old.

  • big_oil

    Ravi4,

  • Secular

    Big_Oil you wrote “Hinduism is a collection of ideas and a frame of mind. We don’t take anything literally, all the stories have deeper meaning and insight”. I am at a loss as to what to make of your statement. Your claim is that Hindus do not take anything literally. That begs the question from me is why not? If you are not going to take anything literally, what do all those books mean? If they mean whatever the reader make of it, like the beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Then there is no barometer to verify one statement from another. Does this mean each reader can make of it as he/she pleases?In any case I have a few questions about the story of Hanuman returning from lanka, has an accident, wherein this achanchala Brhamachari’s semen fall into the ocean. This semen is consumed by a mighty fish, which almost immediately gives rise to a well matured child called Makara Dhvaja. Now my questions to you are:1) What to make of this story, if you were not to take it literally?2) I would like to know what algorithm are we supposed to use, so there is no ambiguity in interpreting the story, from one reader to another.3) How is it that achnchala brhamachari get so aroused as to produce semen? Can one still be called Achanchala Brhamachari after getting so sexually aroused as to produce semen.4) Some prudish versions of the story replace thesemen with the other “S” word sweat. Which begs another question are we to believe that that sweat has sperms too?5) Is it possible for a primate and a fish to procreate and give birth to a different kind of primate?6) Have there been any cases of primate new born to be born fully mature?Please enlighten us about the deeper truth in the above story. I am only seeing this story whose truth claims run along the same lines as David Cameron’s movie AVATAR. Good for a few laughs and entertainment.

  • big_oil

    Read this story by the BBC which shows how racist Christians are severly oppressing Dalits while pawning the blame off on Hindus:

  • big_oil

    Martin Luther a great Christian leader, in his book “On the Jews and their lies” quotes Jesus in Matthew 12:34, where Jesus called them “a brood of vipers and children of the devil”. The Christian Nazi’s used to show this racist book in their rallies. This Christian hatred of Jews led to 6 million deaths.

  • big_oil

    “Even if I were all those, that still does not make your contentions right. I dont need for you to teach me about Hindu scripture,”

  • Ravi4

    Hindu Caste System is not just Rac-ism, but it is much more Vicious, Venomous, Evil and Cruel; Caste System is Rac-ism, Fasc-ism and Naz-ismIt has been frequently written about these days and even the so-called intellectuals and the social scientists in CASTE INDIA keep saying with absolute arrogance that ‘The Caste System cannot be clubbed with Rac-ism because Caste System is not Rac-ism and also this is the “internal problem of India” and therefore the world community cannot and should not discuss the hindu Caste System in “The United Nations Conference Against Rac-ism, Rac-ial Discri-mination, Xen-ophobia and Related Intolerance held in Durban, South Africa “.This only shows how much these so-called hindu intellectuals and social scientists are immersed in the evil teachings of HINDU CULT and thus adamantly adhere to the appalling intellectual dishonesty.They are such intellectual prostitutes by their conspiracy of deafening silence always maintain that they are ready and willing to prostitute their so-called intelligence to protect their ill-gotten benefits out of an unique hindu evil and inhuman system of dreadful and grisly Caste System. By maintaining iron-fisted arrogance of upholding this evil Caste System, the venomous manifestation of the barbarous hindu Cult, these evil hindu creatures want the perpetuation and the continuation of the most heinous and unspeakable vicious crimes, atroities, and abuses against humanity at any cost.And the most heinous and ferocious practice of untouchability that is being imposed on the desperately innocent citizens of Caste India by the EVIL CASTE SYSTEM of the barbarous hindu Cult is the daily occurrence in Caste India at free will and at ease.

  • Secular

    Ravi4, cool it man, you have made your point, long ago. What purpose is being served by you posting and reposing the same stuff over and over again. You have 8 successive posts, just below mine. Do you think anybody reads the nonsense you are posting? Take it easy.

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