Democracy at Liberty

By David Waters A minor squabble over the rights of student Democrats at the late Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University has … Continued

By David Waters

A minor squabble over the rights of student Democrats at the late Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University has turned into a battle over the rights of two nonprofits to keep their tax exemptions.

“If the school insists on pushing policies that favor Republicans over Democrats, it should have to surrender its tax exemption,” Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State said last week after his tax-exempt organization asked the IRS to investigate the tax-exempt status of Liberty University.

Speaking of tax exemptions, “Americans United is merely a façade for a liberal agenda and the Democratic Party . . . and the IRS ought to take a close look at its tax-exempt status,” Mathew D. Staver, dean of LU’s School of Law an founder of the tax-exempt Liberty Counsel, said Monday. The Counsel is asking the IRS to investigate AU’s tax exemption.

I hope the IRS ignores both complaints. Just about every politically motivated non-profit favors one party or another’s positions on whatever social issues are on its agenda. Is there any doubt that the Christian Coalition or Focus on the Family favor the Republican Party, or that Faith in Public Life or the NAACP favor the Democratic Party? Ultimately, the real issue here isn’t tax status. It’s liberty — a private, evangelical Christian college’s liberty to uphold its own standards, and a student’s liberty to express his or her own convictions.

The Liberty fuss began May 15 when Mark Hine, LU’s vice president of student affairs, sent an email to LU’s College Democrats Club, founded last October in the run-up to the 2008 election. “I must inform you that the College democrats’ club is no longer going to be recognized as a Liberty University club,” Hine wrote. “We are unable to lend support to a club whose parent organization stands against the moral principles held by Liberty University. . . “

“The Democratic Party Platform is contrary to the mission of LU and to Christian doctrine (supports abortion, federal funding of abortion, advocates repeal of the federal Defense of Marriage Act, promotes the “LGBT” agenda, Hate Crimes, which include sexual orientation and gender identity, socialism, etc). We are removing the club from the Liberty website and you will need to cease using Liberty University’s name, including any logo, seal or mark of Liberty University.”

In a guest column for On Faith, Falwell’s son, Jerry Falwell Jr., now LU’s chancellor, said the entire matter had been greatly exaggerated. “The students who formed the Democrat club last October are good students,” Falwell wrote. “They are pro-life and believe in traditional marriage. They can continue to meet on campus. The only thing that has changed came about as part of a University-wide review of all student organizations for official recognition status. Official recognition carries with it the benefit of using the University name and funds. While this group will not be an officially recognized club, it may still meet on campus.”

Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine and other state Democrats were not impressed. “For Liberty University to deprive the College Democrats of the same opportunity as College Republicans … violates that fundamental principle of fairness and teaches the students the wrong message,” Kaine told a Lynchburg newspaper.

Falwell and Staver have said they are willing to consider reinstating the Democrats club, if members modify their constitution to oppose abortion. Club president Brian Diaz says members are considering the offer, but are concerned about the terms.

“We’re scared about being reinstated and then having the administration look over our shoulders and tell us we can only endorse pro-life candidates,” Diaz told UWire. “Making an articulate vote isn’t based on one issue, it’s based on all the issues. The message we’re trying to send is that we don’t have to agree with a candidate on every issue but we need to look at all the issues and make the best choice.”

Will Liberty University make the best choice?

Hine’s May 15 email was clear about LU’s policy: “The Liberty Way states, ‘It is the duty of every student to respect Liberty’s Statement of Doctrine and Purpose. They may not engage in any activity on or off campus that would compromise the testimony or reputation of the University or cause disruption to Liberty’s Christian learning environment.’”

But one of the stated aims of Liberty’s statement of purpose and mission also seems clear: “Promote an understanding of the Western tradition and the diverse elements of American cultural history, especially the importance of the individual in maintaining democratic and free market processes.”

Does the Liberty Way conflict with the American Way?

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  • integrativetherapies

    Of course it does. If this ever occurred the other way around- a “liberal” school disowning a Republican students club, the outcry would be deafening. Because this school falls under the aegis of tax protection, let them also grant full status to opposing viewpoints.

  • senigma

    Liberty University is not a university in the traditional sense. It is a madras, a seminary, a place for indoctrination in religious/political thought that is as authoritarian and rigid as that imposed by the ayatollahs of Iran. Like the ayatollahs, the Falwell-ites goal is to see this country changed into a theocratic state, of which I’ve no doubt, that they see themselves in the supreme positions of power. make no mistake, these are not nice people, they are not in favor of the America enshrined in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Their watch words are obedience and control.

  • skimom27

    NO TAX EXEMPTION to support religious brain washing, period. If they want to be a private school with no government money or help, they can do what they want. But NO TAX BREAKS if they choose to discriminate.

  • bigbrother1

    Yes, the “Liberty” way does conflict with the American way, or at least with the US Constitution. That’s pretty obvious.Next question?

  • blund

    Let me see if I have this straight. If you are not a republican you are not a good Christian? Hmmmm, I would have thought LU banned drug use, but considering this issue somebody is smoking something that should be banned. LU should have their tax exempt status pulled over this idiotic move.

  • kjohnson3

    Yes, it does, in the same way that the “Brigham Young Way” conflicts with the American Way.Brigham Young University students are obliged to follow strict behavioral standards (including dress codes, hair length, dating regulations — nothing but light kisses and holding hands until marriage) but are also expected to follow the Mormon party line on all fronts.They are subject to expulsion if they so much as neglect — or choose not — to attend church each week. How does BYU know whether students are attending church? The “ward bishop” (aka Head Tattle-Tale) reports on them. (Ditto if they’re seen drinking caffeine.)Similarly, anything they write for coursework or public consumption can get them expelled if what they write is deemed “not faith-promoting” and they refuse to recant. Subjects they are banned from writing on (or reading about — the “authorities” routinely eliminate entire articles from microfiched journals and newspapers) include: archaeology, Mormonism, feminism, sociology, religion, gender relations, and, of course, evolution.The same restrictions, by the way, apply to what faculty are permitted to study, write on, and present research about. Untenured faculty are virtually enslaved to the Mormon perspective, and even tenured faculty can lose their jobs for apostasy. Furthermore, after a few years of working in that stagnant environment, their credentials aren’t accepted anywhere else; they either toe the Mormon line or they lose their entire careers.So here we have two tax-exempt (aka taxpayer-funded) institutions of higher learning that offer no academic freedom and use actual as well as punitive punishments for those on campus who exercise their civil rights. Because the “authorities” of the Mormon church hold so much control over both students and faculty, not to mention the families of both, they literally can force the faithful to comply with any demands they impose.Adults tithe, attend all church services and church-mandated activities (e.g., “family home night”), wear “sacred” undergarments, and vote conservative; if they do not, they get “reported” and their temple passcards are revoked or withheld.When a church gains and retains control of the will of their faithful, they become a powerful voting and lobbying bloc, and this is what the Mormon church has done. It is far more a commercial and political organization than it is a church or a religion. It’s a finely tuned, smoothly running business operation, and it’s still taking advantage of tax-exempt status to spread a political gospel.This is wrong. Deeply, undeniably wrong.

  • fstanton66

    Liberty U. is just another example of the Religious Right’s insidious burrowing into the constitution. It has no interest in free speech or freedom to practice one’s religion. It has no interest in the teachings of Jesus. It is driven by a narrow agenda, mainly being using the guise of conservatism to garner lots of money for its leaders, who I would equate to having the IQ of a southern redneck car salesman. It cares nothing about homelesness, hunger in America, corporate injustice against working class Americans or the racial divide in this country. In fact, I would be so bold as to say that the type of person who leads the Christian Right and Liberty U. is the type of person who a generation ago would have turned the dogs on Martin Luther King!

  • donaldtucker

    this is a trick question right? of course it conflicts with the american way.will they make the right choice? money thats all they cre about there is no other choice but money for this group of brainwashers.

  • jrubin1

    Once a bigot alway a bigot!

  • nameit23

    As a private institution, they should have the right to do as they see fit. I am guessing the tax exemption relates to its position as a religious institution. This should be revoked. It should be revoked for both the GOP leaning & Dem leaning churches that politic from the pulpit.What really caught my eye was Mark Hines listing of items that conflict w/ Christian doctrine & amongst them was socialism. Really? This isn’t just an overtly political piece of tripe? When did Christ rail against socialism? Truly a remarkable, insular society.

  • bevjims1

    The more I read about this story the more LU reminds me of North Korea, another place where the leadership is handed down from father to son, authority is autocratic and embarrassing the institution invites retribution. But what is sadder is that the parents of students attending LU are behind the autocracy. They send their children there because they want the single minded authority they agree with. Its what they also would like to see in our government, laws based on single mindedness, not democracy and compromise. This side show with the democrats club is just a symptom of a much larger problem which is bigger than LU and America is currently recovering from.

  • dhampton100

    My children went to a Christian school here in Ohio. Their curriculum came from Bob Jones University. As I went over some of the books I thought I perceived hints of racism. As a Black family I was concerned but my wife assured me I was overreacting. After elementary school and they moved on to the high school my son came home with a complaint. The principal had informed him that he was not supposed to date any white girls in the school. Now, my attitude concerning interracial dating is very simple: You don’t try to pick my mate and I will not try to pick yours, deal? I politely went down to the school, with my wife following closely ( my reputation for belligerence proceeds me). As I approached the principals office and he saw the look on my face he quickly tried to leave, I blocked the door. I explained to him, as politely as I could that he did not get to pick out the female my son choose to date unless my son got to pick out the female he spent time with. He looked at me as if I was retarded but he knew I meant every single word I had spoken. We had no more problems out of him or the school on this matter.Racism and politics have no place in institutions of higher learning. Full Stop. Anyone who thinks differently deserves a loss of tax exempt status and a loss of the right to teach growing malleable minds. To deny a child all the facts, concerning things like politics and race opinions along with the freedom to choose for their self is the worse crime an adult can commit. You would not want someone to manipulate your mind in a particular direction, therefore you should not do that to someone else.

  • ghp60

    Modern Christian leaders are not that different from the Jewish writers of the NT. They often did not understand what Jesus meant, so they made things up. Jerry Falwell was one of the worst. This is why there is so much contradiction in the NT. Each writer heard and saw things a little differently, but all were compelled to make their ideas sound compelling. Fortunately the Spirit of God lives and still communicates to those open to listen, either through the NT scriptures and/or life experiences.

  • maryyam

    spidermean2,Liberty University (that’s a misnomer if there ever was one) can support its stupidity all it likes, but not on my tax dollar.Render unto Caesar, spidermean2. You do remember that one, right?

  • Chops2

    The answer for the students is simple: Go to a real university.Is it un-American?

  • 2goldgoose1

    There obviously is no academic freedom at Liberty University so it cannot legitimately be recognized as a university; the corporate charter of Liberty University should be revised to show that Liberty University is a fundamentalist center for brainwashing citizens to defy American Constitutional Law of the Land, since Roe vs Wade IS the law of the land in America. Liberty is misnamed since it denies liberty to students; Liberty denies students the freedom of religion. Liberty University is a misnamed advocaty group to destroy the American democratic Repbulic and make it a theocracy; it advocates the overthrow of the Constitutional American government. As such they should be put of the Terrorist Watch List.

  • RetCombatVet

    “Does the Liberty Way conflict with the American Way?”This is a joke question right? Religious fanatics are religious fanatics. Brand is of little consequence.

  • spidermean2

    Believe in gravity or fall to your death. Pretty simple but the idiots want to play atop skycrapers and act as if they are on a flatland.

  • 2ndgenSaram76

    I’m curious to know, for those that commented about the institution so vehemently, how many have actually been there to witness for themselves? This kind of reminds me about all those who talked about our involvement in Iraq and badmouthed our presence there, and our leadership, but of course how many of those people were actually there? It’s pretty amazing how much ignorance loves to spout about itself, while those that know chuckle to themselves when they read some tirades like these, and some cant resist chiding these people like I am.

  • 2goldgoose1

    What in the world makes Dean Staver think that a liberal agenda is either partisan or illegal? The ignorance of the Dean is a good reason to doubt Liberty University’s status as a legitimate university; with no academic freedom and an ignorant Dean Liberty University’s status as an institution of higher learning exceedingly doubtful. Based on Liberty University’s prejudice against Democrats, liberals, and the Roe v Wade Law of the Land in America, how in the world can they achieve tax excemtion as a univeristy or a church.

  • 2goldgoose1

    I can’t believe that Liberty University is actually accredited by the Southern Association of Schools and Colleges. The accrediting agency should be ashamed.

  • Chops2

    Spidermean:What the hell does that mean? That makes no sense.If u believe in gravity (a scientific theory) u will have the sense not to fall to your death. if u believe in god, u will believe that u could be saved by him b4 u hit the ground. U cant. Your dead. “Liberty University, as a policy, DOES NOT SUPPORT STUPIDITY”I would think no educational institution would bother putting stupidity in its policies as that would be, well, stupid and pointless. Having said that if LU did, it wouldn’t surprise me a bit.How about the 3,000 year old dinosaur bones they claim to have? If that is true, it is an example of stupidity and willfull ignorance from the christian madrassa that the place really is.

  • jwh7k1

    websters-dictionary-online.org1. Immunity from arbitrary exercise of authority: political independence.2. Freedom of choice: “liberty of opinion”; “liberty of worship”; “liberty–perfect liberty–to think or feel or do just as one pleases”; “at liberty to choose whatever occupation one wishes”.3. Personal freedom from servitude or confinement or oppression.4. Leave granted to a sailor or naval officer.5. An act of undue intimacy.

  • mitt1968

    Give my regards to Jesse Helms, Jerry! Such unbelievable filth, and how wonderful to see them all going the way of the dinosaur.

  • mitt1968

    TAX THE CHURCHES — all of them!

  • Doomore

    Falwell & Falwell’s cronies again are fighting to keep people AWAY from Christianity. Why would someone who has not accepted the Lord into their heart would ever consider doing so when they see these self-righteous fools demonstrate their Socialist ways. Falwell was alway trying with all his might to keep people way. He alway demanded a throne. My daughter lived in Virginia Beach and Hampton, Virginia for 5 years and she would tell me stories about how Falwell demanded you to stand aside when every he came though. Falwell demanded each and every person to demonstrated total servitude to his great present. This fool is burning very intensely now and should be. Here’s to the Great Falwell a self righteousness fool. We can only hope he will be forgotten soon and maybe we will be able to bring people to the Lord despite the damage he has done to Christianity.

  • jasm917

    An essential part of the college experience is the right of students to explore and reexamine their political, social, and cultural beliefs. It is part of becoming an adult. College authorities have no right to interfere with this process of exploration and intellectual inquiry and at the same time expect their institution to receive the privilege of tax exemption. Of course any religious-oriented institution should have the right to limit such inquiry in order to maintain the purity of its doctrines–but if it chooses to impose such limits, then it may not expect to receive tax exemptions. It’s that simple.Liberty University–and for that matter Brigham Young University–can command sufficient wealth from their religious supporters, their alumni, and their investments and endowments to flourish without tax exemptions if they choose to impose rigid controls on what their students may think in the spheres of politics, society, culture, and science.

  • MillPond2

    Two thoughts occurred to me as a result of reading this article:1) All non-profits who discriminate in any form should lose their tax exempt status (no exceptions). In this economic climate, the country could use the money.2) If the Democratic Club At LU gets no university recognition, operating funds or other support then, in the interest of fairness, neither should the Republican Club.PS to Mr. Falwell: The proper name is the Democratic Club, not the Democrat Club, unless in the interest of more fairness, you chose to refer to the other party affiliation as the Repub Club, which certainly does have a nice alliterative sound.

  • ripvanwinkleincollege

    During the 1970s, I attended a Christian school in the Bible Belt and there were many students who would have been quite comfortable attending Liberty University. But there were also those like myself who would not have attended a school like that. My school did not try to impose its Christianity on others, even though it maintained its Christian doctrine in its charter. That’s the way it ought to be. There’s nothing in Christianity that requires belief in these right-wing political agendas, except that St. Paul and the writings of the apostles clearly condemned homosexuality. Aside from that, there’s no mention in the Bible about politics aside from the one line where Jesus himself was asked about his political beliefs, to which He responded with the famous comment translated into early modern English as “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s but render unto God that which is God’s.” If anything, people like Falwell are modern-day Pharisees, which Jesus roundly condemned as busy-bodies who want to point out everyone else’s sins without correcting their own.

  • Robster1

    Repent, Democrats.

  • Oz1303

    You know what makes me mad, heavily liberal colleges won’t allow their campus to support a ROTC program. And they get away with it. I don’t see the difference here.

  • jewish_lawyer_4u

    Jerry “Fallout” made about as much sense with his so-called philosophies as the Tele-Tubbies he used to rail against. Ah, but not to worry, old Jerry will no doubt be licking the windows on the short-bus no matter which side of the pearly gates he happens to be headed toward.

  • seegeedubya

    It is SO nice to see that Liberty continues to push its narrow-minded bigotry into the minds of its students. Guess that’s another 18,587 Republicans in the mill, huh?

  • spidermean2

    At the end of the day, after Doomsday, Liberty University might be the only one left standing. The liberals should stay away from this school. Don’t let it burn with you guys. Have mercy please.All these North-Eastern Universities’ (formerly godly schools built by Christians) days are numbered. They are most susceptible to nuke attacks by virtue of their location. Don’t you guys have a heart that you’re paving the way for these old schools to burn. Have mercy please. Keep your stupidity with you and don’t spread it. Too many schools are already on the Doomsday hit list. Don’t add more to it.

  • chatard

    Yeah! an’ I don’t think the military academies ought to dictate about saluting and marching and all that stuff, an’ what does their character have to do with being responsible citizens, and I think Notre Dame students should be Muslims if they want to and what’s that confession all about anyway? That’s un American. So what if somebody signs a contract? Barack Obama told me contracts were for sissies anyway. The main thing is that the Mainstream Media continue it’s assault on anything Christian and that Meacham and Quinn keep doing their best to facilitate that.

  • SarahBB

    Liberty U should lose its tax exemption if this is what they do.

  • Fate1

    2ndgenSaram76 wrote: “I’m curious to know, for those that commented about the institution so vehemently, how many have actually been there to witness for themselves? This kind of reminds me about all those who talked about our involvement in Iraq and badmouthed our presence there, and our leadership, but of course how many of those people were actually there?”And how many were right?2ndgenSaram76 wrote: “It’s pretty amazing how much ignorance loves to spout about itself, while those that know chuckle to themselves when they read some tirades like these, and some cant resist chiding these people like I am.”Well, if you thought the protesters before the Iraq war, who called it unnecessary and asked the weapons inspectors to continue their job, were wrong, then where are all the WMD? Cheney said he KNEW Iraq had them and KNEW where they were. Oh, you must have read the revised history of the Iraq war Cheney and the other neocons spent the last 6 years writing.As for Liberty University, I suggest you read their website. Read what the Republican club is saying. Read what the faculty is saying. They do not agree with their Dear Leader on this matter.

  • Fate1

    spidermean2 wrote: “All these North-Eastern Universities’ (formerly godly schools built by Christians) days are numbered. They are most susceptible to nuke attacks by virtue of their location.”Wow, spidermean2 got to his favorite topic, nukes killing liburls, after only three posts. Must be a slow night.Hey spidey, do you have an answer for how the kangaroos hopped form the ark to Australia after the flood yet? I’ve been waiting months for an answer. One so smart as yourself, not like us stupid people, should be able to answer a simple question like that sooner don’t you think?While you’re at it, where did all that water come from to cover the whole earth anyway during the flood? And when the flood was over, where did it all go? If you’re going to say ice caps, nope, only enough there to raise sea levels about 30 feet or so. The flood covered mountains, so where did that water come from and where did it go? Maybe a student at Liberty University could answer this, or will I have to go to the Creation Museum for an answer?

  • spidermean2

    Liberty Universaity acceptance rate for students entering in 2008 was 94.3%, making Liberty one of the LEAST SELECTIVE schools in the United States.In 2007 Liberty University School of Law, announced an 89% BAR PASSAGE RATE from its first graduating class of Law Students. The bar passage rate far exceeded the State Average of 71.97%.Least selective of students and yet gets very high passage rate. That is quality education at its best. You can only get it from true Christian schools which are devoid of STUPIDITY.IDIOTS should stay away from this school. Save it from your stupidty please.

  • nacirema

    Tax exemptions for churches is ludicrous. From roads to utilities, police and fire protection, churches, like any business, should be paying basic taxes to maintain what they use.As for Liberty, it is just an outspoken Bob Jones University that is 100% Republican and ALL, A-L-L the staff makes derogatory comments about Obama, and liberals in general in the same tone as the Klu Klux Klan does racially.Liberty is a cult, a for profit group that preys on Jesus believers with a “profess faith in Jesus and you will be saved, all sins will be forgiven.”Liberty is 100% about A FREE TICKET to HEAVEN, especially if you will all your worldly goods to the church. These are greedy Republicans wrapped in a flag, carrying a cross and as much Christians as Nazi Germans.Liberty publically criticizes the government, promotes hate, and is a church version of Fox News, a sham preying upon the ignorant, the bigots and the paranoid…just like the Republican Party.Read their emails, listen to their tapes and sermons and you have a US born terror group, as dangerous as any external threat to America.Lynchburg is a most unholy place, and the Falwell legacy is of a political action group, cloaked in Jesus, carry a concealed weapon of hate, fear and ignorance.Side Bar: Tax freedom for churches is 100% unconstitutional, because “we the people” pay for churches and that is not freedom of religion.

  • zjr78xva

    Dimwitcrats are yucky, smelly, and refuse to think. Why would you want them around?

  • camera_eye_11

    They’re terrorists. Gather them up, send them to Gitmo, and waterboard them all.

  • camera_eye_11

    Dimwitcrats are yucky, smelly, and refuse to think. Why would you want them around?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Because they’re better than Republitards.

  • mcroriel

    I attended LU in 1980, the year candidate Ronald Reagan spoke on his campain trail.A democratic club would have been unthinkable. Shorts, Christian Rock, or single dating before you were a senior were all Verboten!Sounds like creeping liberalism to me. A slippery slope, soon ecumenical protestants and “green” global warming believers will start organizing.Even back then the school Administration would admit to expelling one male couple a month for homosexuality. Think they’ll ever have a “non-recognized” group status?This is a madrass equipping zealots and has nothing to do with Christianity.

  • spidermean2

    If you would examine who are the enemies of America around the world aside from Islamic extremists, the L word always float. Yes, these idiotic liberals are the ones who shout “down with America” in every corner of the world which are not dominated by Islamic militants. If you ask these Islamic extremist why they hate America aside from its support for Israel, the L world always float. They hate America because of its ultra Liberal values.When will you guys be healed? Drink lots of medicines, would you. Medicine for the brain, to be specific.

  • mcleangirl

    Leave Liberty, Dems. They don’t deserve your money. And when you leave, there will then be plenty of space for high school graduates with C- averages, just the kind of folks the Falwells like.

  • mcroriel

    I almost forgot can you imagine a Biology class that believe’s the earth is 5,000 years old and was created in 7 literal days? Very creative textbooks.

  • 2ndgenSaram76

    MAN!! So many haters…are you all from Virgina? You would think the hometeams would get a little slack…are you all Resdkins haters also?

  • thmas

    I’m sorry — you think that “Liberty University” (sic) shouldn’t lose its tax-exempt status because Americans United should not do so?Liberty, which is tax-exempt presumably both as a church-affiliated institution as well as one that professes to engage in higher learning, has no standing to decree that students affiliated with a legitimate political party may not form a club on its grounds.That position should disqualify it from tax exemption on both pretexts.Americans United is an advocacy group. Its purpose is to present issues, and it has done so. Its conduct does not in the least violate the premises of its tax exemption.

  • camera_eye_11

    Great; more non-thinking, automaton Republitards getting the LU experience.Liberty University supports terrorism.

  • spidermean2

    The Bible disapprove of slavey. It was banished. If I remember it correctly, it was banished by force. The south paid for it very dearly despite their contention that they are godly and god is not opposed to slavery.The Bible disapprove of racial discrimination. It was banished. Good that it was done not by force coz the populace were enlightened.The Bible disapprove of polygamy. It was banished. Good coz not by brutal force coz the Mormons succumb to pressure.The Bible disapprove of gay marriage. It will be banished. If not by any law then by deadly force from outside the country. Gay marriage states will be DOOMED. The Bible CANNOT LOSE. IT ALWAYS HAS THE LAST SAY. If not by legal means then by FORCE. The nukes are COMING. Watch out libs. Confined in you liberal schools and dodge ROTC does not make you safer.

  • jhbyer

    spidermean2, you’re being disingenuous. (1)Liberty Law School has a different student body than Liberty University. (2) The former has much more selective admissions than the latter. (3) Without knowing how selective are other law schools with lower rates of passage AND how selective is Liberty Law, as opposed to Liberty U, you’ve given us no basis for comparison. (4) Even knowing the aforementioned, the rate of bar passage is not a sure measure of quality of education. Some states’ bar exams have a record of being a poor measure of real world legal skill, measuring instead rote memorization. (5) Less selective law schools typically dedicate more hours to teaching students how to pass the bar, yielding higher rates with no corresponding increase in legal skills, as judged by their graduates lesser career advancement. We can argue that’s no measure either. (6) In sum, it’s not as simple as you portray it.

  • orogero

    Tax them ALL,.and let GOD sort it out.

  • 2ndgenSaram76

    Spidermean2: U need to stop talking, with your grammar issues aside, your embarassing yourself and others like me who dont want to be misrepresented with your beliefs and arguments. If your trying to be supportive of Liberty and the issues, please do so with proper esteem and integrity.

  • sux123

    Spidermean2:

  • orray

    Falwell’s institution is not a university. It should never have been accredited as an educational institution. This is merely one more piece of evidence that should be weighed in revoking its accreditation.

  • spidermean2

    bevjims. it didn’t swim. It evolved from a bacteria. Magic. And the evolutionists think that is science. Wow.Bacteria to tadpole to frog to rabit until it turned into a kangarro. More fantastic than peter pan. And don’t laugh about it coz to them, that is SCIENCE.Cracked science maybe. FOOLS.wOw. And to think these things are taught in schools. Double wOw.Now do you believe Doomsday is near? The world is crazy. Run for your lives.

  • Alex511

    fr dhampton100:>…I explained to him, as politely as I could that he did not get to pick out the female my son choose to date unless my son got to pick out the female he spent time with. He looked at me as if I was retarded but he knew I meant every single word I had spoken. We had no more problems out of him or the school on this matter….Good for you! The so-called “principal” of this so-called “Christian school” should have been fired, with NO pension, NO benefits, 30 minutes to clear out his desk and leave his keys with security as they escort him out the BACK door.

  • old_sarge

    So, what’s next? Student Democrats will be expelled for their political beliefs? This is complete and utter rubbish. If Liberty U. continues to deny access or support to its Student Democrats it should do the same for its Student Republicans. Where politics is concerned, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.If Liberty U. insists on discriminating against the Student Democrats for purely political reasons, it should loose its tax exempt status. It does not deserve protection as a non-profit religious institution if it chooses to be a political lobbyist.There is a huge difference between Mr. Falwell expressing his personal political opinion as a private citizen and choosing to dictate a political opinion to his student charges or speaking on behalf of Liberty U. He has no right to use his position of authority to deny that same freedom of speech right to his students.

  • spidermean2

    howdydoody1, Liberty U is still an ordinary school and not a school for preachers. If it’s for preachers then something is wrong. But they are not preachers, but just ordinary students.

  • 2ndgenSaram76

    Howdy: Sorry that your first impression of LU was not what you were expecting…I dont make excuses for them, but I will say that LU nowadays is a good sized school, which like any large population will always have a few “different” apples in the barrel which unfortunately makes a bad represention of the majority, kinda like the few bad apples in the military who made bad public headlines during the Iraq war.

  • kjohnson3

    “Would anyone here argue that Howard University should be required to recognize a KKK chapter? Should Yeshiva or Brandeis Universities be required to accord recognition to a group of students who wished to sponsor a campus Nazi club?”rhymeswithright,So you’re saying that a Democratic club is analogous to a KKK chapter or a Nazi political club?And you expect anyone to take you seriously?Both the KKK and the Nazis were — and are — terrorist hate groups who exist to eliminate all obstacles to an ultimately all-white America.Is that the mission of Democrats?Both the KKK and the Nazis embraced an “end always justifies the means” mentality and did not hesitate to carry out any atrocity in the name of the ends they sought.Is this really more true of Democrats than Republicans? (Remember Dick Cheney before you answer this one.)You’ve a made a ludicrous argument here, because in no way can you make a reasoned connection between Democrats — a ligitimate and lawful political party in this country — and the KKK and Nazi organizations — racist bullies on an international scale.

  • MeatSweats

    If anyone on here has ever attended Liberty, I would love to know if they offer classes in biology, and to what extent? Do they offer classes in creationism or intelligent design? Even if you have not attended Liberty but know the answer, please share.

  • spidermean2

    Who knows if they are the liberal bunch who are pro-abortion and gay marriage? Did you even try to ask?

  • dpayne2

    “Congress shall make NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” that’s the American Way!

  • 2ndgenSaram76

    FYI…Liberty besides having a seminary with which the school started out as, also has a very large and legitimate liberal arts college. Did I say “liberal”?!

  • logcabin1836

    Liberty University is neither one. It should neither be called Liberty because it does not incourage freedom of thought, freedom to assemble, or freedom of political opinion. It is not a University either in that is preaches instead of teaches. Every two-bit dictatorship in the world would love to be staffed by graduates from bigoted, small minded schools such as this one.

  • washpost18

    MeatSweats:Google around for “Liberty University” and “Smithsonian Natural History Museum” for the failfest that is sciences at LU.

  • USadrift

    A religiously and socially secular university is not a place to expect honest and open exchange regarding anything. People who go to Liberty expect to be protected from the hedonistic society portrayed by Hannity, Beck and Limbaugh. If Liberty is receiving federal funds, then the Democratic Club must be chartered.

  • logcabin1836

    Yes Meatsweats…I would like to know if this “University” teaches biology. How about geology, astronomy, astro-physics,

  • sux123

    theobserver4:good for a laugh, though and my favorite also.

  • francinelast

    Liberty university – that’s an oxymoron isn’t it? Anyone who values liberty would never go to a university with staunch Taliban-esque ideas of the world. It’s a Christian ‘madrassa’, and a place to indoctrinate Christians with hatred for liberty, tolerance, global and cultural understanding and anyone who is ‘different’ from them.

  • dpayne2

    The “University” does not support individual political candidates, only their own skewed ideals. Were they to endorse any single Republican, then their non-profit status would be in jeopardy. As it is, they are a private institution, and as such, can recognize any group they want. The Democratic students were not expelled, only their right to use “Liberty” and “Democratic” in their club.

  • coloradodog

    More positive proof Palin evangelicals and the Dobsonites are Siamese twins with Limbaugh’s Randall Terry Republicans. No more tax exemptions for O’Reilly’s Catholics (RCC – Republican Catholic Church), the radical Christian terroristsWe thought we took back America from theocracy last November but these freaks have bullied, blathered, excluded and murdered their way back into being a threat to our Constitutional freedoms.Say no to Palin’s twisted idea of a theocratic Jesuslandia that once was America.

  • washpost18

    dpayne2: Wrong. As I previously posted elsewhere,From

  • kinoworks

    One question: is it a requirement to have three chins in order to be a fundmamentalist minister?

  • Woodstocknative

    All organizations religious or not that are making a profit should pay taxes. They all benefit from the paying of taxes by those who have to pay them. It’s a free ride that we no longer can afford.

  • mburix

    I don’t know why anyone in their right mind would ever attend LU in the first place. I mean, earning a degree from LU on your resume is not exactly a resume booster unless you want to go work for some nutty religious institution or a far right think-tank.

  • jaynashvil

    Certainly, no one really expects fairness and open thought from a school operated by the Falwell clan. That would be dangerous to have students thinking and debating ideas. How scary! Everything’s already been decided, kids, so you can invest your time and brains in other things–like working for the Republican party. Tax exempt? Doesn’t make sense to me.

  • SLSP

    Liberty University manages to be both un-American and un-Christian in one fell swoop. Quite an achievement! It is founded on hate, bigotry, ignorance, conformity, and totalitarianism. It is a political organization, dedicated to creating a cadre of unquestioning minions who will toe the party line and obey their leaders. It should be taxed. It should also lose its academic accreditation.

  • Michael_A1

    Remove the tax exeption for all religions. This feature of our tax code, while perhaps with good intentions initially, has morphed into a means to hide excessive amounts of income from the IRS. The Catholic church is a great example – they are filthy rich worldwide. Why should the US not tax their property (at the very least) when everyone else’s property is taxed???? This is silly, and I suspect the US would reap billions in tax revenue. Perhaps a restriction on size would be a good first step – i.e. the first 1/8 acre, the first 100k of income, etc.. I only propose that in order to make it more palatable… but the free ride for religions should be o-v-e-r.

  • MeatSweats

    The first sentence from Liberty University’s description of their biology department.”The biology faculty at Liberty University are committed to academic excellence and to training students to represent Christ in the fields of medicine, scientific research, and teaching.”What?! How does Christ have anything to do with this?

  • bevjims1

    “it [kangaroo] didn’t swim. It evolved from a bacteria. Magic. And the evolutionists think that is science. Wow.”Look, its a simple question. The bible says all the animals were on the ark, the flood came killing off all the land animals. Then the flood abated and the ark landed, around Mt Ararat or there abouts. Then the animals got off and populated the earth. If kangaroos got off the ark how did they get to Australia? A simple question you keep answering by saying kangaroos did not evolve from bacteria, which is not my question at all. If you can’t answer the question just say so and stop being evasive.If there were no kangaroos at the time of the flood but were created by God later, when were they created? The bible makes no mention of a second creation. In fat, Genesis 2:1 says God was finished after the initial creation: ‘Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.’All the host, not all the host except kangaroos. So did God get up one day long after the flood and say to himself that it was time to make some kangaroos? If so when did this happen and what is your evidence for it. Not an engineering question but one an engineer should be able to answer.

  • Riograd

    Liberty U is an interesting entity. I believes that it follows the teachings of God, yet it denies that the world that we observe was formed by the process of evolution. There is a mountain of evidence that the diveristy of life which we observed, including ourselves, was sculpted by evolution. The theory of creation proposed in the Bible has been shown to be false by observation and logic. Given that Liberty U denies the form of earth that God created, they essentially are denying God. Indeed, I think that it is fair to consider them godless. They certainly have strange but perversely interesting opinions.

  • djmolter

    It’s just an extension of the Christian “ours is the only way” philosphy. What else do you expect?

  • nonsensical2001

    These guys are in for a big surprise come Judgment Day.

  • borntoraisehogs

    The tax exemption should be taken away from all religious organizations , not because there is anything wrong with any of them , just that Americans who do not believe , should not have to subsidize . In fact eliminate all tax deductions other than reasonable , ordinary and ,necessary costs of business as recognized by accounting standards . One poster mentioned BYU as being un-American like Liberty . BYU accepts no federal funds and refuses to by controlled by federal dictates . The lack of control is what drives libs mad , they clearly don’t care about someone imposing their will on these students , they want to impose their will on these schools . They want these schools punished for teaching values different than their own . I think I have found why these people call themselves progressives now , there is nothing liberal about them .

  • cgray7daone

    Liberty University needs an immediate, well thought out, name change. I have few suggestions. Here are some: Temple of Darkness; Center For Dark, Angry Thoughts; Bastion of Bigotry; Center For Right-Leaning Fanatics; Center For Lost Students; Tunnel Vision University; and Instiution Where Jesus Could Not Matriculate. The title ‘Center for Lost Students’ may be the most appropriate. I pity those who attend that institution. College is an important time, and should not be squandered by attending such a foul place.

  • jhbyer

    spidermean2, you ask how I know I’m right and you’re wrong, as if wrote or implied that. What I wrote was the facts you gave us were insufficient to support your conclusions and, further, were misleadingly applied.Liberty Law is to be commended for producing graduates able to pass the state bar at rates exceeding the average. I know nothing about Liberty U, because you didn’t report any measures for it, and I have no personal knowledge. I’m happy to believe it’s a great school – college is pretty much what a student is willing to work for, all the more nowadays, when internet access and an able library staff can overcome the limits of a what formerly defined third tier colleges: an inadequate library collection. I take care, with regard to colleges, not to judge the intelligence of student bodies and professors by the acts of administrators. It’s reasonable to question why students choose a college with unAmerican policies, but for all I know circumstances determine their choice and it’s not for me to judge the unknown, which includes the quality of the education they’re able to obtain.You ask, “Do you say a 50% passage rate does not portray a picture of mediocrity?” Yes, I’d have to say it doesn’t, because passage rates are not to be confused with average scores. Do you understand the distinction? Some states have passage rates so low that 50% would be good. Liberty Law graduates are to be commended not because of their rate of passage, but because it has exceeded the average rate. This would’ve been true had their passage rate been 50% if the average rate were, say, 40%. Again, it’s not a matter of you or me being wrong or right but of grounding interpretations with the facts at hand. Because you bring facts to bear and have interesting insights, I always appreciate corresponding with you, spidermean2.

  • jclarkebis

    spidermean2: You are a heck of an engineer. It seems that they even wrote a song about your engineering prowess. Let’s see something like Casey – -track – - coming. Don’t let the rest of the cahoots bother you. You are doing just fine with your 8th let’s make that 6th grade education.Zeke

  • SayWhat4

    bevjims1 – you stopped at Gen 2. If you can manage to make it all the way to chapter 10 you will find an answer.

  • fox2

    LU is un-american – LU opposes the vote and supports a theocratic state. LU is not even Christian – it is simply hate and fear. LU is the voice of Reagan and the Republican Party. LU opposes everything that Catholics and the followers of Christ support. Unlike them LU opposes most teachings of the Pope who supports civil rights, opposes the death penalty, declares the war in Iraq immoral and unjust, and admonishes us in Christ’s words to protect those who are the least among us through social justice.LU is more Evangelical than Christian. Even VP Cheney opposes LU’s stand on same-sex marriage.

  • screwyou

    Yeah, pretty clearly there’s no real question on this issue. “Liberty” should be stripped of all federal aid and support immediately. I’m surprised they accept any as it is, since it’s some “mark of the beast” or whatever in their theology, but I guess money trumps consistency every time for them.Their actions in this case are a positive sign, however. Since they were willing to break the law to silence opposing opinions, it’s clear that they feared these opinions. Which indicates that the reality of the wrongness of their positions has become clear to them. So take heart good people, we’re winning!

  • clamb1

    So let me get this straight, LU states Socialism is bad but openly practices fascism.

  • mwcob

    It’s a private university with religious affiliation. We might not like their viewpoints, but when we get into the slippery world of punishing religious groups for unpopular viewpoints, there’s very little between us and the Chinese government. The College Democrats don’t share or support Liberty University’s belief system. So don’t GO there. It’s not like Virginia doesn’t have a wealth of top-notch public universities. Sheesh.

  • mraymond10

    Hine states “The Democratic Party Platform is contrary to the mission of LU and to Christian doctrine (supports abortion, federal funding of abortion, advocates repeal of the federal Defense of Marriage Act, promotes the “LGBT” agenda, Hate Crimes, which include sexual orientation and gender identity, socialism, etc).”Doesn’t Christian mean following the teachings of Christ? To me, that doesn’t mean finding arguments against homosexuality in the old testament. After all, I can justify almost any behavior through interpretation of the OT.Now I am not perfect by any means, most particularly because I am making a judgment here. Even as an ex-Christian and current Deist, I try to respect Christ’s theology and most especially Matthew 22:37-40. It is my opinion that the Evangelical Republicans running LU, might look more deeply at their own failings when they make decisions for others. The Republican Party platform is as separated from Christ’s teaching as is the Democratic Party’s platform. But, which one is closer? Based on the collected words of Christ, I would say the Democrats are much closer to a Christian party.

  • post_reader_in_wv

    Full disclosure first: I am a Democrat and a committed Christian. I don’t find those to be contradictory. I also teach at a church-related college very unlike Liberty University: no doctrinal litmus tests or creeds to sign, with a faculty and student body that includes non-Christians. And yet as an institution we manage to honor Christ and work to build the kingdom of God. But surely LU would declare me an unrepentant apostate.The irony here is that this and similar controversies simply reinforce the loyalties of LU’s constituencies. LU’s extreme positions open the wallets of their fellow travelers in ways that us moderates never manage with ours. If the Feds would actually pull LU’s tax exemption, you would see a massive, successful development campaign exploiting the sympathies and resources of their constituents. The money AND the students would continue to roll in.Crazy world we live in . . .So if you’re a religious person with functioning neurons (and NO, that’s not a contradiction, either!), perhaps you might consider supporting a religiously-affiliated/church-related institution where Taliban tactics are NOT employed. You’ll be doing some good.

  • bevjims1

    SayWhat4 wrote: “bevjims1 – you stopped at Gen 2. If you can manage to make it all the way to chapter 10 you will find an answer.”Could you be more specific? Gen 9. talks about destroying the earth and all that is left alive is on the ark. Gen 10 is just a lot of begatting as Noah’s children, all men it seems, spread across the land. No mention of making kangaroos or a second creation event.

  • tmcproductions2004

    THE CHURCH IS NOT A DEMOCRACY!!Sr. Mary Ellen made this loud and clear to us in 7th grade civics. So why do parochial schools get tax absolution?Let ‘em run any anti democracy curriculum they want. Just quit making me pay for them!!!

  • spidermean2

    The Vatican is the seat of Satan. Just read their history, the catacombs underneath the Vatican and the deep poverty common among catholic coutries because of their left leaning atheistic doctrines and population explosion doctrines. The Pope speak against corruption but lo and behold, it’s the Catholic countries which are burdened with such activities. They speak against war and yet historically, they are the most murderous among religions. Nobody can top the hypocricy of this institution.

  • KennyBoy

    I agree, Spidey, bless his heart, is one of the more entertaining posters here, he’s funnier than a lot of the columnists. As far as being an engineer, I hope that’s limited to his toy trains and not some bridge I might have to drive over.

  • drivero

    I do not know what is scarier, the ghost of Jerry Falwell or the commentary posted on this thread! It seems that most are interested in controlling ideas and opinions in one way or another…so what if someone believes or teaches that the earth is only 6000 years old or that the Democratic Party is evil incarnate [after all even the Founding Fathers believed "factions" a necessary evil], but to bring the IRS into the equation, now that is truly sinister! If anything can be concluded from most of these rants, the conclusion is a simple one: Reform the IRS and promote a single tax on everyone. By the way those of you interested in using the tax system as a tool of punishment, you had best keep the Constitution in mind.

  • morphex

    The First Amendment speaks of the establishment “of religion”, not of one religion or cult or sect as against others. The establishment by Congress, through the IRS, for example, of religion as such, is expressly prohibited, pure and simple. LU can do whatever it wants to the minds and souls of the fools who enroll there, provided they agree, but it has no claim on the taxpayer. Let the poor fools pay.

  • Diogenes

    Falwell, Jr. Like father, like son. Of course Falwell can’t see the hypocrisy in his statements.

  • sux123

    By the way those of you interested in using the tax system as a tool of punishment, you had best keep the Constitution in mind.I don’t remember the constitution saying the religous institutions don’t have to pay taxes ( I could be wrong here, am I?)

  • spidermean2

    The core issue here is abortion. LU does not want to support groups that subscribe to abortion. What’s so extremist about that, idiots?

  • dpayne2

    Most people on this post just hate the whole concept of a “Christian” University standing on Christian principles. They are okay with Acorn or the ACLU getting direct taxpayer funds, nevermind that they have no political agenda.Keep in mind the purpose of the school to Encourage a commitment to the Christian life, one of active communication of the Christian faith, personal integrity, and social responsibility which, as it is lived out, leads people to Jesus Christ as the Lord of the universe and their own personal Savior. That offends a lot of people and has since Christ was crucified.

  • lswonder

    Among other items, I don’t understand why supporting “Hate Crimes” law is unchristian.

  • bjlopez1130

    Last time I checked God was neither a Republican or a Democrat.To me it is saying you can only be Christian if you are a Republican. You cannot be a Democrat and be a Christian. If some of their members were actually involve with an abortion I could see it but they weren’t . They just belong to a party that supports a woman’s right to choose.There is no place for politics in religion.Quite frankly for them to do this is certainly not an example of Christian Love and embracing people’s differences. Jesus did. But they seem to forget that.I don’t think God cares if you are Republican or a Democrat. What God does care about is that you except Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. There is no where in the Bible that says in order to be saved too, you have to be a Republican.Liberty University, you claim to know the bible and Jesus. I think you all need to go back to Basic Bible 101 school. Actions speak louder than words. Your actions like many actions of the GOP do not say I do what Jesus would do.

  • rbaldwin2

    It strikes me that the Liberty Univ. ‘rules’ of behavior are the same rules that ‘Focus on the Family’ or any other Right-Wing neonut organization has today. They should be treated the same way – Tax exempt pulled and the organization branded as a political interest group.End of Jerry Falwell and his band of hacks.

  • rabnpa

    There is no democracy at liberty.

  • screwyou

    DPayne2, actually no. I think the idea of a christian university is just swell, even better than swell. But I don’t want my tax money supporting it when it becomes a tool of one political party. Which is what it is, by the way, a tool of the Republicans. It’s bad for religion when it mixes with politics, just as it’s bad for politics when it mixes with religion. If you’re a christian you should recognize that.

  • map529

    Oh yeah. The so-called Christian right (republicans/conservatives) are not in anyway like extremist muslims. The only issue the Republicans have with conservative Islam, is over competition in whose religion will control the greater number of people and thus has the greatest power accrued to its leaders so they can live hypocritical lives while oppressing others in the name of God.

  • JPRS

    In putting the GOP before God and the Constitution, Liberty is effectively saying “treat us like a political organization. The ‘tuition’ fees that we receive should really be deemed as a political contribution and taxed as such.”Reducing God’s law and the Constitution down to the issue of abortion goes beyond mere stupidity. The effective advocacy of one political party over another shows exactly what business Liberty is in. It isn’t the education business. All extra-curricular political orgs should be treated the same based on their function — not based on their belief system. That’s the “equal protection” standard.

  • thensell

    It would be interesting to hear the hatred spewed at George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, John Adams and our other founding fathers if they were alive today. While they saw fit to provide a separation between church and state, this country was founded on CHRISTIAN ideals! The great thing about the way they framed the constitution is that no one gets to ram their idiology down your throat.The students who choose to go to Liberty join a school that is very straight forward in their ideals. They don’t try to hide it or sneak up on them. Those students joined LU, not the other way around. As for the tax break, we really don’t want to cast stones, because there are dozens of very left leaning schools that receive tax breaks (Columbia is the first that comes to mind) and no one is asking for them to lose their tax break even though they have a totally different view than a lot of people’s. Pretty much every church in the country gets a tax break so I doubt the one half of one half of one percent you all think goes to Liberty matters much; it’s probably going to a mosque instead

  • theobserver4

    Encourage a commitment to the Christian life, one of active communication of the Christian faith, personal integrity, and social responsibility which, as it is lived out, leads people to Jesus Christ as the Lord of the universe and their own personal Savior.That offends a lot of people and has since Christ was crucified.Posted by: dpayne2In what parallel universe does this mission statement pass for higher education? I can care less what they teach their flock I mean students, but I don’t want to assist with paying for it. Compare that joke of a self centered mission statement to Notre Dame:The University of Notre Dame is a Catholic academic community of higher learning, animated from its origins by the Congregation of Holy Cross. The University is dedicated to the pursuit and sharing of truth for its own sake. As a Catholic university, one of its distinctive goals is to provide a forum where, through free inquiry and open discussion, the various lines of Catholic thought may intersect with all the forms of knowledge found in the arts, sciences, professions, and every other area of human scholarship and creativity.Lines of Catholic thought intersect with science….professions….the arts? Sounds like those kids are questioning and not marching. It’s like night and day.

  • screwyou

    Thensell, meet strawman. Strawman, meet Thensell. Columbia, et al, fund their Republican student organizations so there is no comparison to make. Anything relevant to add?

  • theobserver4

    The students who choose to go to Liberty join a school that is very straight forward in their ideals. They don’t try to hide it or sneak up on them. Those students joined LU, not the other way around. As for the tax break, we really don’t want to cast stones, because there are dozens of very left leaning schools that receive tax breaks (Columbia is the first that comes to mind) and no one is asking for them to lose their tax break even though they have a totally different view than a lot of people’s. Pretty much every church in the country gets a tax break so I doubt the one half of one half of one percent you all think goes to Liberty matters much; it’s probably going to a mosque insteadPosted by: thensellPlease don’t put a school like Columbia in the same league as Liberty. It’s embarrassing to Columbia.

  • RadicalGlove

    Liberty is a collection of theological thugs. I live in Lynchburg, and I know them as neighbors. They have systematically destroyed the Candler Mountain region with their clear cutting and year round ski slope (which has WHAT to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ?). They are no respecters of the marketplace of ideas. The effort to decertify the Democratic party is a simply the latest in a long line of Falwellian folly and excess.

  • Alex511

    fr rbaldwin:>It strikes me that the Liberty Univ. ‘rules’ of behavior are the same rules that ‘Focus on the Family’ or any other Right-Wing neonut organization has today. They should be treated the same way – Tax exempt pulled and the organization branded as a political interest group….Oh, SO true.

  • thensell

    Screwyou meet kissmyass. I’ll dumb it down for you so you’ll understand. The point is that just because someone doesn’t agree with the ideology of a university doesn’t mean they should lose their tax exempt status. I beleive, on a number of fronts, that Columbia is a very left leaning school and I would choose not to go there. However, I beleieve that students know what they’re getting into when they choose a school and if Lu decides to not allow a group to no longer use the schools name, than that’s within their rights as a private institution.Now here’s the important part so put down your crayons. I thought it a bit too much to listen to everyone thinking that tax breaks are the “punishment” for not conforming and that we should all be very careful in casting that first stone. Try not to get to literal when you read something that is meant to open a dialog, you’ll only get a headache. Relevant enough for you screwyou?

  • thensell

    and yes I know it’s beleive. Sometimes my fingers have a mind of their own

  • mchaun

    Have the Jew Academic Thought Police, Alan M Dershowitz, David Horowitz and numerous others finally find the True University that regards Jew NeoCons and Zionists with the respect they so richly deserve and smites the Liberal hip and thigh?After much thought, I have consistently failed to disabuse myself of the notion that Jesus had more in common with Obama than with George W. Bush.Monte Haun [email protected]

  • screwyou

    Tsk tsk, Thensell. That’s not a very christian attitude there, is it? Is that how they trained you at Liberty? Because I can guarantee that if you attended one of those “left leaning” institutions you would have more appropriate words to use in a discussion.If Liberty funds one party organization and not the other, then it is a very big violation of their tax exempt status. It’s very simple and not open to interpretation.

  • DaveMiner

    Bout time we got rid of them Democratic types. Now let’s get back to some good old fashion water boarding and running the country into the ground while taking a “wide stance” on airport bathroom security.

  • thensell

    Actually I was never “trained”, but did go to a very “left leaning” liberal arts university (a public one in Virginia) for both my BS and MBA. But I digress. Let me get this straight; if someone disagrees with you, it’s not open for interetation? That’s not very democratic of you. The point is that Liberty is supporting them. They allow them the use of their facilities (which is the biggest expense most groups have). They (LU) just beleive that the democratic party’s views toward abortion put it against their views on right to life. They never said they couldn’t have the club, they just don’t want the university’s name attached to it. As for me being a christian, I never said I was. But having a name like screwyou and lends itself to comedic lines. My point has always been that people need to consider the consequences of their requests. There are thousands of groups out there that could lose tax breaks if the zealots had their way (on both sides of the aisle). You can go back to coloring now.

  • thensell

    Please don’t put a school like Columbia in the same league as Liberty. It’s embarrassing to Columbia.Why is that? I always thought Columbia was a good school (just a little too far to the left for my taste). I happen to know that Liberty is a good school (although a little too far to the right for my taste).

  • ithejury

    at least they don’t have to fret about tax status at apparently similarly inclined US Air Force Academy (where either God or Ted Haggard is their co-pilot — anyone else getting eerie flashback to General Jack D. Ripper in ‘Dr. Stangelove’?). say, during the bush admin, what % of Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University grads went to work for US Justice Dept or other organs of federal government (for that Pat Robertson Regent Univ, it was reported at 1 in 6)? [re: guess its ‘praise the lord and pass the civil service exam’ at those raptureready diploma factories; wonder if the supply of bush-loyal republican evangelical job seekers for federal employment from these types of institutions will be able to meet demand during the next few years?oh well, not to worry – rove says that he knows plenty of dumb people from the ivy league schools (now why is it that rove is so familiar with dumb ivy leaguers — is it that dumb ivy leaguers naturally seek him out or that rove is drawn to them?).still, we’re not entirely comfortable with a US Air Force or federal government where all the key decisionmakers are absolutely convinced that they are going to heaven if we all die. we might prefer a little doubt way in the back of the minds of those with their fingers on the triggers.

  • screwyou

    Sigh. OK Thensell, you win. No amount of rationality or factual evidence is going to break through your beliefs. So yes, you’re right – the law of the land and decades of established jurisprudence on the issue of tax-exempt status are simply my opinion. There. Do you feel better?

  • screwyou

    And yeah Observer4, comparing Liberty with any respectable school is a pretty big reach, but using Columbia does make for the funny!

  • blackmask

    For a country shaking in fear over religious lunatics blowing up things, we sure don’t do much to police our own lunatics, do we?

  • washpost18

    screwyou:I wouldn’t sweat it. Thensell is obviously another of those tighty-righties who have become so detached from reality they feel the entire Universe has a liberal bias.

  • hillhopper

    MAT 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain Secondly, “Perfect competition and inelastic demand.”.Thirdly, both “hospitality” and “hostility” have roots in the same prefix.

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Although the incident precipitating the call for an IRS investigation of Liberty University is questionable, it should be investigated, along with the other Right-wing Christianist indoctrination centers cynically dubbed “universities.”Once these “universities” either lose their tax exempt status or reform, we should look again at the tax exempt privileges we award to religious institutions.They need to end, the sooner the better, and we need to begin, very, very late in the day, to honor the separation of church and state that we have proclaimed for nearly 250 years.

  • bawrytr

    So anybody have any doubt what would happen if a university, citing how the numerous aspects of the Abrahamic religions’ creation myths contravene most of modern science and their moral teachings include support for everything from domestic abuse and slavery to mass murder and genocide, decided to decertify all the Christian, Muslim, and Jewish clubs on campus and promised a review of the various other religions sects and cults present to see if they could be squared with the Enlightenment and humanistic principles governing and guiding higher education?

  • Bosworth2

    Senigma;”Madras” is probably a bit overdramatic, but LU is undoubtedly about prosletyzing. But so are most major universities. Of course, no one in the so-called “Free Speech” liberal universe points this out. They also tend to ignore (and the media underreport) the incidences where conservatives whose opinions are routinely quashed – if not outrightly persecuted – at some of these schools. I know, because I saw it. And if you went to college, you saw it, too – you simply didn’t recognize it as indoctrination and speech control, because you myopically agreed with the liberal majority effecting the policy. I don’t ascribe to LU’s views. They are overtly partisan and have a philosophical agenda that conflicts with my own. But, they are a private institution that potential students may choose to attend or not to attend. I would think that since their right-wing views are undisguised and well-known, no one should be surprised when they show up for class and receive a lecture on anti-abortion policies. If that sort of indoctrination makes one uncomfortable, then they should attend one of the far more numerous liberal institutions of higher learning – where more ideologically palatable views are peddled. Or, do as I did, and sit through a liberal professor’s class, and intellectually sort through the political filters and walk away with my own conclusions. A tough exercise, to be sure; tougher than some of my more intellectually incurious or lazy co-students who simply accepted everything taught to them without question. But my intellect is all the better for the trouble. I certainly didn’t sit around whining about how my individual beliefs were being infringed simply because the faculty didn’t agree with me. The argument against LU is hypocritcal. You may legitimately have some opposition to their ideology, but demanding a philosophical reversal simply because they don’t agree with you is – to borrow a phrase frequently bandied about by liberals – fascist. The argument about their tax exempt status is cute, but hardly persuasive. Every tax exempt organization has some sort of social or political position. They simply cannot campaign openly – although many in fact do so (especially liberal ones). It’s a phony argument with no other purpose than to eliminate opposing opinion. I can’t think of anything that’s less American (or even liberal, if you believe their flyers) than that.

  • cdm99

    > Even back then the school Administration would admit to expelling one male couple a month for homosexuality. And today, the majority of gay congressmen are Republicans. Now that’s progress!

  • washpost18

    One of the primary elements that defines “The American Way” is that we have not and do not hold the son guilty for the sins of the father. This is precisely the behavior that LU is engaging in. Nobody, not even Falwell, has claimed that these affected students have engaged in any behavior contrary to the stated principles of the university. As a point of fact the exact opposite is true in Falwell’s published opinion. The only problem that exists is Falwell’s twisted definition of what defines “planks of the Democratic party”. This inarguably makes the University’s decision purely politically motivated.Equally significant is a healthy respect for the rule of law forming a covenant between the governing and the governed that has allowed all of us to live in relative peace and prosperity for hundreds of years. Falwell has violated this covenant by engaging in prohibited activity as defined in IRS code governing 501(c)3 organizations. Unless and until they have their Come To Jesus moment on this and either stop the illegal and anti-social discrimination or relinquish their tax exempt status we as a country should take a page from the book Falwell’s ideological siblings wrote and consider them enemies of the state.

  • mobedda

    I have an idea: why don’t the few open-minded students pull up stakes and leave LU’s educational North Korea for a school who will support them? I think everyone wins when institutional mental illness goes unrewarded.

  • lwps

    …and then they LIE about it. Typical.

  • lwps

    Lib U — ha ha ha!

  • Midknight

    This is a school that was founded by a man who thought you were promoting homosexuality by letting your children watch the Teletubbies because Tinky Winky was gay. This is not a legitimate university. It is a brain washing cult and should not qualify as a tax-exempt organization.

  • Midknight

    This university was founded by a man who insisted you were promoting homosexuality if you let your children watch the Teletubbies because Tinky Winky was gay. This is not a institution of hire learning. It is a brain washing cult that should not have a tax-exempt status.

  • lwps

    I wonder how much federal student aid is going to that place?

  • lidiworks1

    Since Liberty U is a known private so-called educational institution for religious, right wing Republicans, it should openly express it’s bias in college applications and forgoe, not only its federal tax exempt status, but also any Federal funds its been recieving. No less would be demanded if it were a privately run so-called Democrat educational institution. And LU’s behavior and doctrines have been duely expressed in an HBO documentary.

  • bovid4585

    senigma’s comment above is correct.

  • TomfromNJ1

    For one thing, this shows how insecure these right wingers are in their faith. Contrast them to Notre Dame where despite threats from conservatives to withhold money etc., Fr. Jenkins never backed down (showing me that he held principles above money — something not always seen). And that he held true to his principles was very clear when he not only did not avoid the abortion issue, he straight forwardly addressed it and stressed his difference with the president. Then Obama gave his view. I think Notre Dame showed they had enough respect for the students that they did not have to try to prevent them from hearing opposing views. It seems to me that anyone who really believes in something is not afraid to debate it– much like the folks writing on this blog. Why are the students at Liberty not considered as bright or as deserving to hear all sides as are the rest of us?

  • williamwertman

    Northeast universityies that were godly adn founded by Christians? Like Dropsey, Brandeis, Gratz?

  • nsu1203

    I, as a Christian, believe that being a Christian is about a VOLUNTARY submission to Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Being a Christian has nothing to do with engaging in culture wars and battles over the hearts and minds of the populace. I can spread Christianity by my actions and testimony, I don’t need to engage in political discourse to do that. And what in the world do “free market principles” have to do with Christianity? You can’t be pro-war and anti-abortion and claim to have the moral high-ground, you are either for the protection of life or against it. On that note, I don’t believe that a woman should be forced to die to have a child, but I also don’t think women should be using abortion as a form of birth control.

  • rjacobs1

    Liberty University is not about liberty and not about learning. It is an indoctrination center for right wing (mostly white) people who fear most of the world and want to remake it in their image. They are no different than the madrasas that spawned the extremist Taliban.

  • dgates1

    typical republican bull s— if you do not agree with them they will punish you. these freaks use their god just as other terror groups do. NO TAX breaks for terrorist organizations such as liberty??? university.

  • wmboyd

    Years ago, the co-founder (with Falwell) of the Moral Majority explained that they considered forming their own Party, but chose the Republicans instead (shorter process). Why Republicans? (1) shared some common interests, (2) smaller than the Democrats, more homogenous; thus easier to control with a fraction of the membership. It’s the same tactic taught in Finance for control of major corporations via % of stock purchases. It works, and it’s why Democrats (too large, too diverse) will never be run by the Moral Majority. It’s why neo-cons followed the Moral Majority tactic (and pushed them to the side) and why AIPAC followed the same tactic to take control of the neo-cons (and pushed people like Pat Buchanan aside).

  • ScottChallenger

    If LU gets public funds, then the University is terribly wrong on it’s position. If LU is a private University, they can do as they please. But what Democrat would want to go there anyway and put up with the far right BS? To make a point? There are better ideas. No, let the far right only mingle with the far right, this will help guarantee a liberal majority FOREVER in this country. Yes!!!

  • chopin224

    Christianity is indoctrination so the news that Liberty indoctrinates completely should come as a surprise to no one. Unless it somehow gets in their way such as devout Christian Newt Gangrene already sizing up Mrs G. number 5. I have to admit she is attractive, but so is number 4. but hey, he is Christian so as long as he repents on his death bed, all will be forgiven just as some believe Tiller’s killer will be accepted into the kingdom of God. I have my speech prepared for that day so in the meantime I can cheat on my wife, cheat on taxes and even kill doctors but I will repent and be off the hook.

  • OHREALLYNOW

    Jerry Falwell is a big fat windbag, just like Rush and Newt. Who really cares what he says or thinks???

  • andym108

    My momma always told me that if you can’t say something nice about a person or an institution, then don’t say anything at all.In that spirit, I’d like to note that Liberty sometimes has a pretty good basketball team…..and Momma, that pretty much wraps it up.

  • Utahreb

    Liberty University gives the Republican group funding, but denies funding of university monies to the Democratic group. That is discrimination and prejudicial treatment, pure and simple. Therefore, LU should lose its tax exempt status.And AU says it gives a student “ability to express his or her own convictions” – but only if they are in concert with the university’s program and policies. What a crock!Want to see brainwashing in action? Go to ne of these so-called Christian universities – they have made an art of brainwashing.

  • jrzwrld

    It should be a fairly simple litmus test. If a university requires its students to live by the precepts of its founding religion, then it should not receive federal funds. College is an optional extension of one’s education. There’s no reason that we should be funding someone’s indoctrination into a set of religious beliefs. I believe religiously affiliated grade schools get federal funding, but I have less of a problem with that because it is in society’s interest that we have functionally literate citizens and church-sponsored schools are an integral part of our education system. The same cannot be said for church-sponsored colleges and universities. I don’t know any graduates of Liberty University. I assume they must be employed somewhere. But I don’t know any reputable employer who would view it as a plus on someone’s resume. Do they all go into politics or church-related jobs?

  • bevjims1

    spidermean2 wrote: “You don’t understand creation. Let a kangaroo kick you and maybe you might learn from it how it got to hop from its origin as a bacteria. Idiot.”Again avoiding the simple question. How did the kangaroos leave the ark and hop to Australia is a valid question to anyone who takes the bible literally. If you have no answer then be mature enough to admit it.spidermean2 wrote: “The Bible disapprove of slavey. It was banished. If I remember it correctly, it was banished by force. The south paid for it very dearly despite their contention that they are godly and god is not opposed to slavery.”If you remember correctly? What school did you go to? And the bible does NOT disapprove of slavery. It is very approving of slavery. I can give you many many quotes from the bible where slavery is not only tolerated but approved of, in BOTH testaments. Can you give ONE quote in either testament showing disapproval of slavery?Making up more stuff I see…

  • RichardKefalos

    The fact that religious organizations are tax exempt is an insult to the separation between church and state. The religious are no more entitled to be tax-exempt than any other citizen or organization and should be made to pay taxes, immediately. Religion and its adherents are not “special,” although they like to cast themselves that way, and should not be exempt from anything.

  • tboyer33

    Yes, imagine if some liberal Methodist-affiliated college ordered the College Republicans to cease and desist because they don’t support abortion rights and abortion rights are a college value. Fox News and Rush Limbaugh would make it their lead item of the day — proof of the great liberal conspiracy in higher education. They would also be calling for the IRS to withdraw the college’s tax exemption.

  • squier13

    All religious institutions should have their tax exemption revoked.

  • SteelWheel25

    LU has every right not to relax their values & rules but we should not have to pay the school nor should LU be allowed to skirt paying its taxes like all other for profit private institution do. And for the Democrat students at the school, unless you were mislead or was lied to, you should not have gone to the school unless your goal is to change the school’s tolerance for Democrats.I firmly beleive this school is more a training ground for republican politicians, which isn’t the same as saying conservative politicians, than it is for training Christians. I think LU uses Christianity as it’s delivery mechanism for republican ideology.To me, LU is a very liberal institution to me. They are teaching their students how to use government to impose their value system onto other people. If this isn’t the shear definition of what constitutes liberalism what is????

  • witchofwestghent

    Nazi,…. I mean Liberty University should certainly lose its tax exempt status. This is true of ANY religious based university. I would say that even if a Wiccan University had suspended the Evangelical Society.

  • telesonic

    I think some other commenters’ description of L.U. as a madrassa are right on the mark. The trouble with pulling their federal funding is that we might have to do the same to Notre Dame, Catholic University, Loyola, and many other, much superior, schools with religious affiliations. Not sure we want to start that battle – the ‘culture war’ is bad enough already. So…just keep publicizing this hick school’s anti-freedom and anti-intellectual policies. Maybe they can be shamed into changing.

  • telesonic

    P.S. – If you want to learn a lot more about this kind of thing, try the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education: They’re often painted as a conservative organization, but they actually take on cases affecting students and organizations from all over the political/religious map.

  • Doug_White

    Spidermean2 wrote:”There are hundreds of stupid schools already in America…”Which ones did you attend? Did you ever graduate?

  • valandsend

    I work for a nonprofit educational organization, and everyone here knows that endorsing a particular political candidate or philosophy would jeopardize our IRS status. So why are these groups getting away with it? Is it because they’re politically powerful?

  • AgentG

    What is truly disturbing is that Liberty U and Fallwell have all the answers. They are defining what a good student is by a set of predetermined beliefs. Religion and morality for them is nothing more than the enforcement of a certain set of beliefs — the indoctrination (aka brainwashing) of students attending LU.This is absolutely contradictory to the American way, which is rooted in democracy and free speech. The American way is to constantly question and be questioned, and to allow anyone to submit respectful questions in the public space. Why is someone who believes in the choice of the mother to have an abortion and in homosexual marriage a bad person? What are the religious tenets on which such judgements are based? Those would be interesting questions to debate.What LU is saying is that they possess the absolute truth and get to define what political positions result from that. This is a very dangerous mindset and is more similar to the Taliban and North Korea, than to what the American founders had in mind. It is also the poorest kind of theology, absent any moral guidance. It is no wonder that Liberty University gives the impression of not having understood even the most basic aspects of Christ’s teachings, as their policies and attitudes are the most un-Christian one could imagine. How can Christians let such tyranny and spiritual ignorance pervert their own religion?

  • AlanBrowne

    The involvement of “conservative” Christians in US politics is a fundamentally dangerous thing. It has only served to drive a wedge between people – quite the opposite of the Christian message.The United States is built on the Constitution and its amendments – and those documents are very clear about the role of religion in setting the course of the nation and individuals rights to be free from religion.

  • Doug_White

    Spidermean2 wrote:”Im not a poet but an engineer. “A sanitation engineer, possibly. Any other kind of engineer, never! You are psychotic, a liar, you cannot organize thoughts, arguments or proofs, and I’m calling you a liar. Prove you are an engineer.

  • LifeBeforePrinciple

    What most of you respondents don’t understand is that to be an American, to be a part of the American Way, is to believe in God, keep holy the sacrament of Matrimony, hold the traditional values as the true God-given ones, and obey authority. If you follow those rules you will be a good American and you will go to heaven.

  • RichardKefalos

    “o be an American, to be a part of the American Way, is to believe in God, keep holy the sacrament of Matrimony, hold the traditional values as the true God-given ones, and obey authority.”Sound like a recipe for a good little nazi.

  • spidermean2

    Doug_white, what proof? Do you understand the word algorithm? Walking by two feet needs some very complex algorithm. Check that out before you call me liar, idiot.

  • FYIColumbiaMD

    “What most of you respondents don’t understand is that to be an American, to be a part of the American Way, is to believe in God, keep holy the sacrament of Matrimony, hold the traditional values as the true God-given ones, and obey authority. If you follow those rules you will be a good American and you will go to heaven.”I think you accidentally confused ‘American’ with ‘Iranian’ or ‘Saudi Arabian’.

  • COLEBRACKETT

    Is it any wonder that Republicants are a dying breed? They are the most arrogant, hateful, Godless, hypocrits ever. They remind me of the Taliban. Falwell and his like will never know what Heaven is like. They’re destined for a much worse place.

  • xenocyclus1

    Which organization(s) accredit schools such as Liberty and BYU? I went to a school in southern VA not far from Liberty (Hampden-Sydney College) and while HSC was by no means a liberal bastion – one could count the democrats on two hands, we were in danger of losing our accreditation the first year I attended because the accreditation organization was concerned over the volume of research the college produced based on its size. I am unsure the specifics of the accreditation debate, but the school retained its accreditation. My point here is that if the point of accrediting a school is to ensure the quality of the education and production of creative, original, and meaningful students and research, then how does an organization that stifles creative thought and undermine meaningful research maintain its status?As a side note, we had a term for LU girls at HSC: Bible Bunnies.

  • jprfrog

    @LifeBeforePrinciple:You and I (along with most people here) don’t live in the same America. For which I am very glad, and fervently hope that it stays that way.Who appointed you the final authority on what it is to be an American?

  • higgsbosono

    Apples and Oranges.How, exactly, do we the people go about compelling the IRS to revoke the tax exemption of this madrassa? Will deluges of protest do the trick? Or what else is needed? Liberty is only ONE of hundreds, if not thousands, of unConstitutional uses

  • kjohnson3

    “Of course the irony of the whole flap is that the Liberty U. college Democrats are the only ones on campus who are honoring the beliefs and values of the Gallilean fellow who inspired the religion the place purports to follow.”B202,In this one sentence, you’ve nailed the hypocrisy that pervades — and nowadays practically defines — Christianity.This observation can be extended and applied to most organizations that claim to be Christian-based and to most of the Christians who run them.

  • spidermean2

    No wonder this world is in trouble and always at war. Some people just can’t wait to go to hell. If the posters here are truly the cross-section of America, I would be shocked why it’s not burning yet. Wow, imagine how evolution makes a mind insane.Prepare for a third war guys. Probably with Iran or N Korea. Stupidity like the comments above can’t go on without destruction. That’s the law of nature. Stupidity and destruction always go hand in hand.

  • pgibson1

    I suggest Falwell take a chill pill and quit acting like it’s his road or there os no other road to pursue.And He sounds like the new Taliban.That’s liberty?No.Liberty says Fallwell shuts his religious- extremist pie hole and sit down.

  • hogsmile

    Borrowing a bit of wisdom from the late, great Groucho Marx (who wouldn’t belong to a club that would have him as a member, especially a Christian club masquerading as an institution of higher learning): Like “Military Intelligence”, “Liberty University” is a contradiction in terms.

  • keltoi

    Does Liberty still have a football team? I was told by a member of an opposing team that the Liberty football team had the filthiest mouths of any team that they had played. Was that in accordance with Liberty’s rules?

  • MeatSweats

    Spidermean2, the biggest hater this side of Buck Nasty. You would think that a self proclaimed engineer would be intelligent enough to come up with a more insulting and demeaning word than “idiot”. Your overuse of “idiot” dulls the impact and makes everyone wonder why you continue to pretend to be an engineer. Why not follow George Costanza’s lead and pretend to be an architect, or a marine biologist. Oh, wait a second, that wouldn’t make any sense. You pretending to be a biologist would be like Scott Roeder pretending to be George Tiller. Lets hope we don’t hear about Spidermean2 finally snapping and gunning down a biotech lab.

  • FactChecker1

    Doug_White, like the Falwells, has not yet learned that trying to shut down reasoned debate and independent thinking in this country is like trying to catch the wind. Inane and insulting comments simply cause the rest of us to wonder that your ilk do not yet recognize that this is why no one takes you seriously.LU will continue to churn out their little automatons who will continue to attempt to blur the lines between church and state and to insert religion into the public sphere, both of which are NOT the American Way. However, they would fit in very well in the northwestern regions of Pakistan.

  • bobhall108

    Conservatives have won me over. There should not be any socialism and the first thing we need to do is to stop subsidizing churches.

  • nicekid

    Does the Liberty Way conflict with the American way? Oh, heck, yeah. Outside of Al Qaeda and the Taliban, I can’t think of a more unAmerican outfit than the laughably-named Liberty U.

  • kjohnson3

    “One poster mentioned BYU as being un-American like Liberty . BYU accepts no federal funds and refuses to by controlled by federal dictates . The lack of control is what drives libs mad , they clearly don’t care about someone imposing their will on these students , they want to impose their will on these schools .”Borntoraisehogs,I believe I was that poster, and, in my post, I made clear that my concerns are with students and faculty whose lives are controlled by the churches they embrace.I’m not interested in changing what these schools teach — that is, to “impose my will on them.” They can teach what they like. But I am opposed to the way they manipulate the lives and livelihoods of people who have been brainwashed to look to them for guidance.And I’m especially opposed to making other Americans pay for it through their tax dollars. As long as these partisan institutions continue to organize political “campaigns” to target public policy issues, their tax exemptions should be revoked.

  • colinnicholas

    The trend seems to be moving away from religious superstition and towards a greater respect for rationality and science. And about time too.

  • MeatSweats

    According to Spidermean2, everyone is going to die in a war brought forth by liberalism, or more specifically, evolutionists.

  • frenchbelle

    i’m reading a great book right now by a guy that transferred from brown university to liberty university for a semester and wrote about it. fascinating! “The Unlikely Disciple: A Sinner’s Semester at America’s Holiest University” by Kevin Roose

  • RhymesWithRight

    The students of Liberty University choose to attend the school knowing that they will be expected to uphold certain standards. As a private (not public) institution, the school has every right to impose and uphold those standards — including by denying recognition to organizations that go against the school’s distinctive nature.Would anyone here argue that Howard University should be required to recognize a KKK chapter? Should Yeshiva or Brandeis Universities be required to accord recognition to a group of students who wished to sponsor a campus Nazi club? Indeed, if students know before they ever enroll at the school that there will be limits placed upon them that the government could never impose, then they are getting exactly what they agreed to and paid for.

  • ccnl1

    Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of “pretty wingie thingie” visits and “prophecies” for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).Current crises: Adulterous preachers, “propheteering/ profiteering” evangelicals and atonement theology, all male hierarchies and strange banking and funding.

  • joshlct

    I think respecting other’s reasoned opinions is just part of being a decent human being.However, I have never considered Mr. Fallwell a decent human being, and I doubt he’ll shape up if he gets sued over this more recent defication onto American freedom. Decent people must be content to oppose people like him in everything we do. And if there is a judgement coming, as Mr. Fallwell surely believes… he’ll get his.

  • bevjims1

    spidermean2 wiggled: “Your brain is too focused on that verse in the Bible. The Bible does not describe in detail how things were created and therefore you can’t assume that kangaroos were inside that ark.”The bible is very specific in a single creation. The bible is very specific that all living things, large and small, were on the ark. The bible is very specific that all land dwelling animals were killed by the flood except those on the ark. There are no more mentions of further creations in the bible. If you have information from the bible of further creations I’d like to hear them.spidermean2 spun: “Also if ever it was (for the sake of argument), it is easier to believe that kangaroos can hitch-ride a boat towards Australia than your idea that kangaroos learned to hop from its origin as a bacteria.”Now when did I say kangaroos came from bacteria? I’m asking how they hopped from the ark to Australia. A simple enough question. You are attempting to change my question and answer it. Where did you learn debate? Liberty University?spidermean2 made up: “You are truly crazy. No bacteria can transform into a kangaroo, idiot,let alone into humans.”Still can’t answer the simple question and so bring up non-sequitors. You also did not respond to where all the water came from to flood the world. I guess you’ll continue to ignore that thorny question too. A fine example of the “intelligence” of a true believer.spidermean2 hullicinated: “Do you understand that even walking by two feet let alone jumping (kangaroo style) is a very complex science? What are you? A college idiot? Where did they get the intelligence to construct the algorythm to walk.”They?spidermean2 quipped: “Im tired of your stupidity so please learn to think, idiot.”I never get tired of your stupidity. Your inability to answer simple questions and then calling people names to cover your inability will not win you any debates, except maybe at LU where I’m sure your debating style is a graduate level course.

  • spidermean2

    2ndgenSaram76, sorry for grammatical errors. Im not a poet but an engineer. My brain functions well with numbers and scientific problem solving but not much with composition of words. Do your own stuff and mind your own business.

  • B2O2

    Of course the irony of the whole flap is that the Liberty U. college Democrats are the only ones on campus who are honoring the beliefs and values of the Gallilean fellow who inspired the religion the place purports to follow. Jesus spent his years in Jerusalem helping the poor, healing the sick, preaching peace and advocating love for one’s neighbor. He did NOT spend it pushing for policies that made the rich temple moneychangers richer, ignored the uninsured sick, rattling sabers for idiotic wars and trying to keep men from loving each other.Falwell and his fellow Taliban authorities urinate all over the name and values of Jesus every day with their support for the Republican party.Just a hilarious little detail that’s gotten lost in this discussion.

  • Roger2

    Christian principals were once interpreted to included opposition to practices like war and the death penalty, and included support for “good works” like care for the poor, human rights and justice for all. Now that all takes a back seat to abortion, which is far down the biblical list of evils now supported by Liberty and the Southern Baptist Convention. The twisted ethic that defines Liberty University, harkens directly back to the founding rational for the Southern Baptist Convention, which was self-serving biblical justification for morally abhorrent practices of benefit to it’s community members. In 1845, the morally abhorrent practice of the day was slavery. Today, the same selective fundamentalism is used as a weapon against free thought and will, and to support any right-wing policy of the Republican Party. That is not Christian, it is political and self justifying.

  • spidermean2

    jhbyer, how do you know you’re right and Im wrong. Are you an expert of Liberty U’s ways and practices? I may not be accurate but I think my assumptions are much closer to reality than yours.Do you suggest that a 50% passing rate does not portray a picture of mediocrity?

  • jadams1ab

    LIBERTY University!?!?! From Mariam Webster Liberty is; 1: the quality or state of being free: a: the power to do as one pleases b: freedom from physical restraint c: freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d: the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e: the power of choice. Any institution that asks students to sign a 40 page code of conduct is not preaching any type of Liberty… If they practice what they preach, then Liberty is near the end of the list of values they support. Perhaps since they claim that they are concerned primarily with Godly concerns, they should ask both political parties to move off of their campus?

  • llong51

    It seems that some of the money the university saves by having the tax exempt status goes to the young Republican group but not to the the young Democrats.Also on the money topic: Jerry Falwell made a point that some donors complained about having the Democrat group there. Was it to a large extent the unhappiness of donors that led to the decision to ban the young Democrats group? How much of this decision was about money?

  • spidermean2

    B2O2 speak of Christ as if he’s an expert of his teachings. Laughable. I’m sure you can’t even interpret a verse in Revelation. And to straighten up your brain, let me tell you that it is Christ who’s the real author of it. Apostle John just jot down the vision Christ was showing him.

  • llong51

    They shoud fund both groups or neither group

  • colinnicholas

    Spidey;

  • spidermean2

    Anybody who does not believe the Bible does not understand the Bible. It is that simple. In plain words, you guys are morons. The Bible is wrapped in deep metaphors. It’s impossible that idiots can understand it.Only a moron would believe in a theory like Darwinian evolution. He can’t even explain what’s the algorithm for walking. Here is the bomb shell. Natural selection is too crude to even touch the subject of walking algorithm. There are a lot of algorithm to solve like the bird design of flying without a vertical stabilizer. Only computers can fly a plane without a vertical stabilizer. Now where did the birds learn the algorithm. hmmm? I can name thousands more.idiots?c ya later guys.P.S — People who believes in evolution are insane. That’s a fact. I don’t know if that is something to be happy about. Poor America (the liberal part) coz its days are numbered. What a pity.Liberty U. What a beacon of hope. America will not totally burn because of schools like these. God bless America (the conservative ones only). The liberal part are not protected. See what happened in 911.

  • Chops2

    Spidermean:In light of the Tiller incident (and besides the numerous other examples), would u care to admit u were wrong?

  • 2ndgenSaram76

    Is the issue about Democrats vs Republicans, or is about Liberty University and why it cannot allow a club that has affiliation with the condoning of one of the main doctrines that the school believes in? The club is allowed to gather on campus, it just wont be endorsed under the copy right of Liberty university.

  • dpayne2

    This is simple. Liberty is a private institution and has the freedom to make such decision whether you agree or disagree. These students have the freedom to go to another institution. So should the gov’t revoke the tax exempt status of every organization that does not agree with “political correctness”? I think not because that definately would be “close minded”! These people need to find someone else to pile on…

  • gmcduluth

    What kind of parents send their kids to this school? What kind of jobs are these kids qualified for after they graduate?

  • spidermean2

    chops2, I never said that but I can say that people who understand true Christianity don’t kill people just because they have a different point of view. For your information, it was primarily the Baptists who fought for the First Ammendment because one of their religion’s primary core belief is FREEDOM OF CONSCIENCE.A child born in a baptist church does not automatically become a member until the child is old enough to decide for himself.True Christians are born in LIBERTY.

  • spidermean2

    colinnicholas , thanks for the advice but how about my brain? How do I fight it when it says that there is a God. Try using your brain and you’ll understand what I mean. c ya later guys. And don’t forget to use your brains. There’s a reason why it’s taking 10% of the food you eat.

  • sux123

    Churches and other “faith-based” organizations should not be tax-exempt since the are discriminatory in nature. Not to mention the fact that they actually do profit from their activities. LU is just an obvious, glaring example.

  • bevjims1

    c ya later spidey. While you’re gone, think about those kangaroos. I ask again when your back because I would like to understand the deep metaphor in the biblical flood story and why it makes so little sense.And your comment about 911 proves to me that you think like the religious fanatics who attacked us.

  • 2ndgenSaram76

    B202: I think your speaking of the Nazarene Jew named Jesus who declared to be the son of the only living, true God who died a horrible death willingly as a sacrafice for the atonement of all mankind. Why? Simply because he loved us so much. Oh, and the most important thing which separates him from other so called gods is that he rose again on the 3rd day and is alive today!

  • Dearest1

    As a taxpayer, this makes me feel beyond ad nauseam. This is a brain-washing bigot operation that should be policed to make sure that it does not abuse the young people studying there anymore. By no means these people should have any tax exemption of any kind. It is disgusting.

  • howdydoody1

    No, the Liberty way does not conflict with the American way if the American way is hypocrisy. Over 20 years ago, when I was in college, I was in a service club, Circle K. My college’s chapter attended a convention hosted by LU’s chapter. I can tell you that the LU students I saw were the first on the dance floor (didn’t the Southern Baptists forbid dancing?) and the first to be drunk in the hotel, running up and down the hallways. My classmates and I were not impressed.

  • HarrisTheYounger

    Falwell is, was and always will be a tacky, ignorant, moneygrubbing scumbag. After reading some of the exchanges he had in the late 70′s/early 80′s, waxing ecstatic about how much money they were bringing in by accusing ‘gay militants’ of sabotaging his radio tower and how much more there was to be made on the anti-abortion movement, I’m not even sure he’s religious. He worships money, and something like this being in the papers gets the real doofuses (doofi?) to make contributions, I’m guessing. They should most certainly lose their accreditation if they’re devoted, as someone pointed out, to running a madrasa instead of a college.Oh, and…Spidermean (how adorable) wrote: No, my simple friend, that is what you get when a school has low standards in both areas: admissions and academic achievement. Clearly, that is the case at LU. I’m sure it’s very easy to maintain that when so many people are going there for degrees in theology. You take everyone’s money and walk their kid through some classes, and everyone comes away happy and ignorant enough not to annoy their parents.

  • dpayne1

    As in any ideological discussion, the offended group has a tendency to reflect “selective outrage”.Based on my review of the comments, I will be willing to bet that the “those offended” did not express similar outrage when elite liberal(progressive) academic institutions kicked ROTC off campus or have they worked to get ROTC back on those campuses.

  • dpayne2

    If tax exempt status for religious instutions were revoked wouldn’t it give the state control over the church? Isn’t everyone for the “separation of church and state”? When did standing up for your principles become discriminatory? Or could it be there just discriminatory when you do not agree with them.

  • FactChecker1

    RhymeswithRight wrote: “Would anyone here argue that Howard University should be required to recognize a KKK chapter? Should Yeshiva or Brandeis Universities be required to accord recognition to a group of students who wished to sponsor a campus Nazi club?” Nice trying to compare the Democratic Party with the KKK and Nazis. But then I guess that was your point but, to reasonble people, your argument makes no sense.And, please, The Fire? Could you give us a less radical reference?

  • Flabergasted

    If I had a degree from that place, I’d be embarrassed to put in on my resume.

  • FactChecker1

    DPayne2 wrote: “If tax exempt status for religious instutions were revoked wouldn’t it give the state control over the church?” What? Please explain how that happens! Certainly there are laws to obey but that is the case today as the Catholic church found out the hard way.

  • spidermean2

    bevjims, I don’t understand what you have been doing with your life. It seems that nothing can cure your stupidity.You have answers to questions that actually has to answer. Go to Guiness. You probably own the world record for stupidity.

  • spidermean2

    bevjims, I don’t understand what you have been doing with your life. It seems that nothing can cure your stupidity.You have answers to questions that actually has NO answer. Go to Guiness. You probably own the world record for stupidity.

  • spidermean2

    Bevjims, show me the algorithm of flying (birds and mosquitoes), climbing (monkeys), upright walking (humans) and how does natural selection or artificial selection able to get these algorithm on its own?Show me how they acquired it? And show me the equations.You are an idiot if you have an answer for this question. I am just rephrasing waht I said earlier.All things and creatures (living or non-living) follow the laws of science and Im asking you how they were able to get this kind of complex science.Two words like “natural selection” or “artificial selection” are not answers. Give me the details how they arrived at forming the algorithm.

  • washpost18

    spidermean2 said: “All things and creatures (living or non-living) follow the laws of science and Im asking you how they were able to get this kind of complex science.”AAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA! FSTDT submission OTD!

  • Freestinker

    “… show me the equations.”——————–(ignorance – sense of humor)**2 = spidermean2

  • Farnaz1Mansouri1

    Columbia is a left-leaning school. Well, I don’t know. Columbia bought up the upper west side of Manhattan, displacing thousands of people without a glance back. It has been one of the great recipients of defense department contracts and uses its research facilities in ways that are regrettable, all this despite its endowments.It does have some left-leaning faculty, though. A sizable number of ancient dolts, alcoholics, bigots, sexists, you name it. Several first-rate scholars, among the very best in a few fields. The best. Left is an interesting word. Great University is an interesting phrase. Do not look too closely at any of the ivies: Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Penn, Princeton and Yale.And then we get to Chicago, Stanford. Best not look to close. Of course, any student would do far, far better at any one of them than at Liberty University. But they all have messy closets. Just a thought….

  • spidermean2

    bevjims, washpost18 and freestinker. Three people vying for the world record for the most stupid person on earth.They don’t realize that every stroke of motion requires some form of algorithm. It’s not magic folks. They don’t just happen like magic. All things obey the laws of science like physics, mechanics, etc. Biology is NOT magic. They too obey the same science.Now call all your liberal “distinguished” university professors and scholars and let them explain how the most stupid subject of evolution has permeated the most “distinguished” schools.While you’re at it, prepare for Doomsday coz the world is run by fools.

  • spidermean2

    “show me the equations”Freestinker, you can physically examine the computer you use and you’d never see a single math equation. You don’t see them but your computer won’t function or run without these equations, idiot. Physics, mechanics, etc have equations and birds can fly because they obey the laws of physics and mechanics, idiot. Computers can mimick the flight of birds just by listing the right equations. Are you a college grad? B.S in Moronology?

  • bevjims1

    spidermean2 dodged: “bevjims, I don’t understand what you have been doing with your life. It seems that nothing can cure your stupidity.”But I’m not the one avoiding answering questions.spidermean2 quipped: “You have answers to questions that actually has NO answer. Go to Guiness. You probably own the world record for stupidity.”Do you mean like how the kangaroos hopped to Australia? Actually I do have an answer … they never hopped there from the ark. What is your answer? I’m still waiting…spidermean2 quipped: “Bevjims, show me the algorithm of flying (birds and mosquitoes), climbing (monkeys), upright walking (humans) and how does natural selection or artificial selection able to get these algorithm on its own?”Algorithm? You think a brain works like a computer? If a brain worked like a computer it could be modeled by computers, but it cannot. It is not a computer any more than a muscle is a car engine.spidermean2 joked: “Show me how they acquired it? And show me the equations.”Equations? Oh I forgot, you think a “designer” designed the brain and so there must be some software lying around and schematics. Do you even understand that brain cells do not communicate using electricity? Do you understand that brain cells do not use binary? Do you understand there is no software? Just hardware? Hardware that interacts with itself, changes, cells reconnecting, reconfiguring? How do you think you learned language? spidermean2 actually has a real thought: “All things and creatures (living or non-living) follow the laws of science and Im asking you how they were able to get this kind of complex science.”How does a thunderstorm form? How about a hurricane or river? How does the complexity and organization come from nothing? How about a wave at the beach? What organizes it? Where did the equations come from. Super computers today can model a hurricane but hurricanes have been happening for a long time. Where did hurricanes learn the science and algorithms? Have you thought about that?spidermean2 twisted reality: “Two words like “natural selection” or “artificial selection” are not answers. Give me the details how they arrived at forming the algorithm.”There is no algorithm spidey. No software. No schematics. No designer. You demand what is not there and when you don’t get it you determine God must have put it there. A human is a poorly “designed” creature, with an appendix only a horse needs, a tail bone only monkeys need, two kidneys when we only need one, one heart when we really could use two. And unlike computers, no fault tolerance. What you need to do spidey is show where you see the design.

  • bevjims1

    spidermean2 wrote: “It took years and millions of dollars for Honda to arrive at making a humanoid which can walk clumsily. The reason for such awkward walk is because they forgot to put toes to the humanoid.”Well there you go. Intelligent design could not have created the multitude, relatedness and complexity of life either.spidermean2 wrote: “Evolutionists would have to explain how their so called “natural selection” was able to make algorithms for kangaroos to jump, monkeys to climb trees, birds to fly and humans to walk uprightly.”Natural selection is related to artificial selection, which is easily explained and understood even by the least educated farmer who ever bred a farm animal. And you keep talking about algorithms. Why? Do you consider the brain to be a computer? The muscles and bones to be motors and I-beams? You may be an engineer of some sort but you obviously know little of anatomy, the structure of life, development, cellular processes, hormonal control feedback and of course your favorite subject, DNA and how it is translated to control cellular and bodily functions of all sort. Let me just put it in a nutshell: Life is as similar to a computer controlled robot as it is to a statue.Again, intelligent design does not explain how something as complex as a human developed. And, if you look inside Honda’s robot, you will not likely find built in defects that have the sole purpose of killing the robot, like an appendix in humans. You will also not find robot fossils over hundreds much less billions of years, helping prove the robot’s sudden appearance on earth and thus supporting its intelligent design.spidermean2 wrote: “You’ve got to be an idiot and moron combined to proclaim that there is no higher intelligence out there.”Based on what? A feeling? I thought you were an engineer? When you build a bridge do you declare it safe based on a feeling? When you design an elevator do you immediately put it in service because you have a feeling it cannot fail? Where is your indisputable evidence of a higher intelligence?spidermean2 wrote: “Evolutionists has thousands of questions to ask but they are not asking the right questions coz they are idiots.”We know where idiocy lies. It lies in those who close their eyes, ignore the truthful evidence, make up anything to maintain their belief and refuse to answer simple questions about their own belief such as how the friggin’ kangaroos could have hopped from the ark to Australia, because even thinking about such a question might cause some doubt and the belief must be protected at all cost. That’s called bias, and it makes one an idiot.

  • spidermean2

    yes bevjims, no design but just MAGIC and magic words like “natural selection”…abrakadabra… Words without a masterplan. All things just appear without science. No algorithm , nothing whatsoever, but just the words “natural selection”.IN A SCIENCE CLASS:Teacher : guys, let’s make an artificial bird.Evolutionist Bevjims : let’s just gather some soil or something and let natural selection take over to make a bird. Teacher : Wow, what a wonderful science is that. Is that what you call evolution?And to think that “distinguished” Universities subscribe to this kind of Science. WOW. What a crazy world.

  • thmas

    I hesitate to even address Thensell, who’se obviously several screws loose of reality, but it is hard to let lie the canard that the Founding Fathers were his devoted coreligionists.You might actually want to do some reading, Thensell, difficult as that might be for you. Most of the founding fathers were Deists. Jefferson even edited the bible to make it more sensible to him.

  • spidermean2

    Evolutionists like observer4 has to resort to lies so their theory becomes believable. It took years and millions of dollars for Honda to arrive at making a humanoid which can walk clumsily. The reason for such awkward walk is because they forgot to put toes to the humanoid.Evolutionists would have to explain how their so called “natural selection” was able to make algorithms for kangaroos to jump, monkeys to climb trees, birds to fly and humans to walk uprightly. It’s a mystery that humans who have brains can’t easily duplicate such feats but the earth which is brainless can. You’ve got to be an idiot and moron combined to proclaim that there is no higher intelligence out there.Evolutionists has thousands of questions to ask but they are not asking the right questions coz they are idiots.

  • joecct77

    Bit late, but just to clarify:Because the views of the national party conflict with the views of the Liberty University charter, the school will not “sanction” the Democratic club.The Demcratic club can still meet on Libery University grounds, and recruit students to participate. Club members can do whatever politcal student clubs do, which I guess is get out the vote for their party. Good for them.As I see it, Liberty U has taken a stance that one cannot be in favor of abortion or same-sex marriage and “officially represent” the college. OK, fine. That’s their philosophy and I am glad that somebody out there has a backbone. You may disagree with their stance, but at least they are willing to stand their ground and say “No!” over a (moral) principle. How many colleges out there do that? I would venture not many, including even Notre Dame.When Jerry Falwell founded Liberty he wanted to make it the “Notre Dame of evangelical protestantism”. I believe he and his sucessors have met that goal.I wonder if Father Jenkins now aspires that Notre Dame become the Liberty University of Catholic education? :)