Gay Pastor’s Prayer Put to a Vote

Oklahoma legislators demonstrated the divisive power of state-sponsored prayer last week when — apparently for the first time there — … Continued

Oklahoma legislators demonstrated the divisive power of state-sponsored prayer last week when — apparently for the first time there — a routine motion to enter an opening prayer in the official record was met by opposition.

The prayer was delivered by Rev. Scott H. Jones, pastor of Cathedral of Hope in Oklahoma City. Jones paraphrased the so-called Prayer of St. Francis, asking God to give “these elected representatives of your people courage and wisdom, that they might be instruments of your peace, sowing love where there is hatred, pardon where there is injury, union in place of discord . . . “

The discord began even before Jones began to pray. In his opening remarks, he acknowledged people in the gallery — “dear friends, my wonderful parents, and my loving partner and fiance, Michael.” Jones is gay. So is state Rep. Al McAffrey, Oklahoma’s only openly gay legislator, the man who invited Jones to pray and who made the motion to enter the prayer in the record.

It all was a bit much for state Rep. John Wright who objected. The prayer was then put to a vote. Sixty-four representatives voted to include the prayer, 20 voted to strike it from the record, 17 abstained — so it’s now official.

Afterward, Wright told the The Oklahoman newspaper that his motion was “not meant to be derogatory nor divisive nor in any way trying to cause diminishment of someone’s sense of self-worth . . . My actions were motivated by the faith.” He didn’t elaborate on which faith he considered The faith, but presumably it’s his.

McAffrey, a legislator for three years, said he’s never heard anyone object to entering a prayer in the official record. “I’m sure that because most of Scott’s congregation are gay people and Scott is gay himself, I’m sure that’s the reason why there were negative votes on it,” McCaffrey said.

The House’s action drew a rebuke from Rev. John H. Thomas, General Minister and President of the United Church of Christ. “As the leader of Rev. Jones’ denomination, I am deeply offended by the treatment he received from the legislature and dismayed by the message of intolerance it sends to the citizens of Oklahoma and beyond,” Thomas said.

“It is comforting, however, to remember that our prayers are judged at the throne of grace and not in the halls of petty principalities.”

If elected officials can vote on whose prayers are acceptable, will they next vote on whose faith is acceptable? The Oklahoma House’s opening prayer is ceremonial. Like the House itself, shouldn’t it be open to all faiths and preachers?

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  • Alex511

    fr the article:>…The prayer was delivered Rev. Scott H. Jones, pastor of Cathedral of Hope in Oklahoma City. Jones paraphrased the so-called Prayer of St. Francis, asking God to give “these elected representatives of your people courage and wisdom, that they might be instruments of your peace, sowing love where there is hatred, pardon where there is injury, union in place of discord . . . “The discord began even before Jones began to pray. In his opening remarks, he acknowledged people in the gallery — “dear friends, my wonderful parents, and my loving partner and fiance, Michael.” Jones is gay. So is state Rep. Al McAffrey, Oklahoma’s only openly gay legislator, the man who invited Jones to pray and who made the motion to enter the prayer in the record. …It is not a “so-called Prayer” it IS the Prayer of St. Francis.>…Afterward, Wright told the The Oklahoman newspaper that his motion was “not meant to be derogatory nor divisive nor in any way trying to cause diminishment of someone’s sense of self-worth . . . My actions were motivated by the faith.” He didn’t elaborate on which faith he considered The faith, but presumably it’s his.Then the so-called “Rep” Wright can leave the room. It’s not rocket science. He needs to stop acting like the whiny kid on the playground who says “if you don’t play by MY rules, I’ll take my ball and bat and go home. MOMMY will play with me by MY rules”. Majority rules, and Wright is just a sore loser who needs to grow UP.

  • willandjansdad1

    We non-Christians are always told…”You don’t have to listen to our public prayer or look at our posted 10 commandments”. To some extent this situation puts the “shoe on the other foot”.

  • Freestinker

    “The Oklahoma House’s opening prayer is ceremonial. Like the House itself, shouldn’t it be open to all faiths and preachers?”——————————————Not unless Satanists, Pagans, Scientologists, atheists, etc. also get an equal chance to preach their heretical and atheistic manifestos to those idiot legislators in OKL who can’t seem to tell the difference between government and religion.If we’re going to allow religous opinions to be officially preached in the people’s House(s), let’s be sure to include everybody. If they are offended by a gay Christian, I can hardly wait to see their reaction to an outspoken Satanist or atheist!No doubt they would run for the hills screaming “separation of church and state” all the way.

  • S_Heriger

    A perfect example of why there should always be a separation of church Whose Christian viewpoint gets in, and whose Christian viewpoint is dismissed? And who makes that choice? It’s a slippery slope from the very second it gets its toe in the door. So why even go there unless government is willing to allow any religion into its tainted and corrupted chambers?I have a very difficult time understanding why so many Christians have fits about gays to begin with. If they consider it a sin, then why do they ignore so much other sin, particularly their own? When was the last time you saw Christians worked up and angry over divorce, a sin which Christ actually spoke strongly about? Could it be because evangelical Christians have one of the highest divorce rates in the country? (currently about 25%, according to a recent Barna poll) Last time I checked, Christ told us to love one another, not condemn and judge sinners. The reason, He tells us, is that we are all sinners and therefore not qualified to judge others. If Christians are going to insist that homosexuality is a sin because it’s “right there in the Bible,” then they must also hold themselves, their loved ones and their own religious leaders just as accountable to all the other 613 laws found “right there in the Bible.” To do otherwise is total hypocrisy.

  • CCNL

    Gay sexual activity is simply “mutual masturbation”. That reality will prevent any future calls for gay prayers!!!

  • kjohnson3

    “We know who are true friend are and who the true Christians are.”Dwaldman,Just to clarify, I’m not a Christian. But I do very much admire your example.

  • kjohnson3

    “BUT IT STILL REMAINS A CHOICE. Period. End of discussion.”Globalone,You guys really love to proclaim “End of discussion,” don’t you?Just because you wish to withdraw from it — or don’t like the way it’s going — doesn’t mean it won’t go on without you and reach a conclusion you disagree with.Definitives and absolutes are for the narrow and fearful. The rest of us are willing to talk.

  • dwaldman

    KJohnson — Sorry I was unclear. I didn’t assume you were or weren’t a Christian. That comment was targeted at Spidermean, the untrue Christian.

  • bevjims1

    globalone wrote: “And if sexual orientation is not genetic, how can it not be anthing other than by choice?”There are many conditions that are not known to be genetic and also not by choice. Some forms of diabeties, arthritis, asthma, autism, Downs syndrome, some mental illnesses, OCD, ADD, etc… A friend of mine has four kidneys, fully functional and capable of being transplanted. The doctors say its not genetic, yet she certainly did not choose to have four kidneys. I hope you would not admonish these people for having made a “choice” to have a condition you do not think is a good condition to have.Until the nature of homosexuality is determined more exactly I prefer to not make assumptions for why gays are gay. It seems clear though that humans are hardwired for sex, one way or the other, and most for heterosexual sex no matter the upbringing. Many theories exist as to why humans would have homosexuality survive evolution, if it were genetic, since any gene causing homosexuality would likely not be passed on. But the genes, if they exist, can be passed on through other family members who carry some of the genes. And it has been shown in some birds that giving up procreation allows two advantages, more adult helpers for the family and an extra helper to care for the children of other family members.But my point is no one knows for sure what the cause is and there is more than just the possibilities of choice and genetics. Many ideas abound but none shown to be definitive. In such a circumstance, jumping to the conclusion that it is a choice because it cannot be proven to be genetic is overly simple-minded considering all the issues/conditions you may have that you did not choose.globalone wrote: “If I’m not wired to be a heterosexual, then being heterosexual is because of a choice that I have made. That choice could be based on a number of factors (i.e., social conditioning, etc.) BUT IT STILL REMAINS A CHOICE. Period. End of discussion.”Ah, the sad sound of a mind slamming closed.

  • Bios

    Globe, I agree that reading is fundamental. Read Calsailor post on Feb 18, 11:51 am to come up to speed with some observations related to sexual orientation. You could then follow up with the bibliography under this link: The fact that you state that you “believe” that sexual orientation is a choice, is as deep as saying that you “think” this or that.Concerning choice, there are significant differences in the physiology of gay and non-gay people. It is definitely a complex subject and there are many components involved, genetic, hormonal, brain structure, psychological, maybe even environmental and maybe others not yet linked to this issue. Enough to consider that homosexuality has a significant component not related to “choice”. Observer bias and social attitudes are often a problem when considering these issues and a lot more will probably be discovered as people continue losing their fear of getting closer to the truth.

  • bevjims1

    I had a male dog that I think was gay. I’m not sure but he was the only one that cared less when the female dog that lived next door went into heat. Other dogs were hopping the fence, but he just sat there. But he did like my brother-in-law’s leg!You can strike Downs Syndrome from my previous post. Its not genetic in the sense that its caused by a gene, but its a chromosomal abnormality and so probably does not belong on the list.

  • globalone

    KJohnson,Nice retort. Of absolutely no substance whatsoever, but a nice reply nonetheless.Of course, if you disagree that sexual orientation is a choice, I would welcome your comments. I am searching for relevant data that would prove the assertion that sexual orientation is NOT a choice.And please don’t bother with the “whoa is me” liberal claptrap that we are forced to become who we are based on our parental or social conditioning. That explanation was plausible in the Middle Ages when communication and exposure to the “outside” world was negligible. In today’s world, we have an unbelievable system of outlets that allow us to enhance our own thinking and discover logic that is, perhaps, counter to our own beliefs.

  • dwaldman

    Did your dog react with disgust at the other dogs trying to mate? Did the other dogs shun him? If not, that might suggest that unlike sexual orientation, bigotry is a human attribute.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Globealone”Reading is fundamental” is your cute put down of people whom you cannot argue with. Yet, you did not read my post either.I find your reasoning incredible. It is my belief that the inner will of human beings is determined by automonic mental mechanisms, that we can neither access, nor understand. I believe that in psychiatry, they have this blanket term called “the subcounscious.” People have handed to them many aspects of psyche, which they did not choose, but also, which are not genetic. In addition to the compostion of the psyche, there is the endocrine system with its complex interaction of hormones, which is also not well understood, and also a condition of our bodies which we do not choose.If you are able to control your sexual desire for men and women, and you can choose the manner and mode of your sexual interest, and it does not just happen to you, as it seems to for almosr everyone else, then why dont’ you tell us how it works and how you control it. How do you see a handsome man, and not “notice” him, yet a minute late, see a pretty woman and “notice” her? How do you control what gets your attention, and what you notice? In your reply to me, you said that you do not hate gay people. Jesus did not say “not to hate people;” that is your perverted phrase. Why can’t you say that you love gay people instead of you do not hate them?The point of this is not why gay people are gay. The point is that your bias against them is so profound that even if a gay person says a prayer, the prayer is then tainted and no longer any good, and should therefore be rejected.To me that is extreme.I have no interest in arguing and proving every little thing with people like you. You have a brain; use it. If you don’t use it, then you will not convince anyone that your argument is right, just that you are stupid.

  • bevjims1

    globalone wrote: “I am searching for relevant data that would prove the assertion that sexual orientation is NOT a choice.”Knock yourself out:

  • elife1975

    We should all pray for Bevjim’s dog. Why his pet chose a homosexual lifestyle is beyond me. Hopefully the mormon’s support of Prop 8.1 banning dogs from marriage won’t pass. Man’s best friend indeed!

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    It is ridiculous to believe that people choose their sexual orientation.Ask anyone, and everyone, that you meet. And I do not believe that anyone can explain the physiological or psychological reasons that motivate their sexaul desires. It is. It is a mystery.End of discussion.

  • outragex

    This article makes me proud NOT to be from or in Oklahoma. I wonder how long before OK realizes that this type of bigotry is costing them money since few progressive businesses, young well-educated people, etc. will be willing to live there? Not to mention all the talented gays/lesbians who will leave ASAP, or refuse to move there. I would like to think that enlightened thinking will make being gay more acceptable, but my guess is economics will make the difference.

  • coloradodog

    Hell would be a perpetual neochristian church service with Spidermean as the preacher.

  • coloradodog

    GabrielRockman wrote:If being a homosexual is genetic, is it possible that being a homophobe could also be genetic?___________________________It’s quite probable since most rabid homophobes are over compensating for their own homosexual feelings.

  • lufrank1

    What’s the old saying? If a lot of Texans moved to Oklahoma – it would raise the IQ average of both states.

  • B2O2

    Most conservative “Christian” despise Jesus Christ and all of his teachings (as well as the Constitution of the United States, I might add). Wright was just standing up for those sentiments. It is sad that so many of the not-so-bright red staters have fallen for the Church of Hate’s message. It is so far from what Jesus preached that is amazing these people are able to function in daily life.

  • B2O2

    Some courageous lawmaker needs to introduce a bill calling for both the banning of homosexuality AND mandating that parents deliver their misbehaving children to the village square to be STONED TO DEATH (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). Both strictures are called for in the same section of the anonymous Bronze Age archeological artifact these pathetic people look to for guidance in their sorry lives.I think that would go a long way toward demonstrating (at least to decent and sane people) the ridiculousness of this sexual obsession conservative pseudochristians are seemingly congenitally afflicted with.

  • Grandblvd03

    I think God hears all sincere prayers, and that’s all that reallt matters.

  • Skowronek

    It certainly doesn’t sound like that prayer was in any way disrespectful to anyone. But I suppose there are those who don’t want good wishes from “those” people. Whoever they may be. We’re all one of “those” people, from time-to-time.Shouldn’t Spidermean2 stick to playing engineer with his clickety-clack track trains? The little wooden ones?

  • Alex511

    fr globalone:>..And if sexual orientation is not genetic, how can it not be anthing other than by choice? If I’m not wired to be a heterosexual, then being heterosexual is because of a choice that I have made. That choice could be based on a number of factors (i.e., social conditioning, etc.) BUT IT STILL REMAINS A CHOICE. Period. End of discussion.Nope. Not at all true. One is either BORN gay or straight. Would Matthew Shepard have “chosen” to be gay, knowing he would be kidnapped by two homophobic animals, tied to a fence in very cold weather, stripped of his coat and shoes, PISTOLWHIPPED INTO UNCONSCIOUSNESS, and left there to DIE? No, of course not.Grow UP, get a life, and learn the FACTS about being GLBT from a reputable group, such as http://www.pflag.org. Ignore like the plague the nutballs from the ‘afa”, “fotf” or “frc” cults, as they are completely incapable of telling the truth.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    GlobealoneYou never respond to any reasonable requests or questions.If you want to know what gay people think of being gay, why don’t you ask them? Maybe you think that you will “go gay” if you talk to a gay person. Nope, don’t worry; it doesn’t work like that. If you were not gay before talking to a gay person, then you will not be gay after talking to one. Perhaps you think you don’t know any gay people. I think you probably do. Perhaps you do not know any gay people and do not know where to find any. Then? What is your problem? All your worries and fears about gay people are moot, aren’t they? Why don’t you address this point, that gay people would have more realistic and valid information about what it is like to be gay, than people who have a defined anti-gay agenda. Perhaps you do not want to know the truth.I say, you have a brain; use it. Don’t complain about evolution and being descended from apes, if you think like an ape, and not use your brain.My other question that you never reply to, is how to you control your sesations of sexual attraction and desire? How do you not feel same sex attraction, and how you assert opposite sex attraction? If you do not know, then say so, and then consider what you have said.Otherwise, do all of us a favor, and tell us how this works, because as far as I know, no one on earth knows, but you.

  • wpc09

    It is easier to please God than to please people.

  • HillMan

    “God does not condone gay relationships and that makes it final.”Actually, Jesus never once mentions gay people.And you’d think He would. Judea was under Roman rule at the time, and Romans were quite open about same sex relations.The ONLY New Testament mention of homosexuality is from Paul.You know, the same guy that instructed slaves to obey their masters and was instrumental in returning a runaway slave to his master….What Jesus did mention was divorce. Pretty specifically. Condemning it.Yet I’m betting you are fine with divorced preachers, yes?

  • HillMan

    “BUT IT STILL REMAINS A CHOICE. Period. End of discussion.”Really? When did you choose to be straight? What was the exact day? Surely the day you overcame homosexuality and went straight was so memorable that you can recall the exact day.I am a gay man. I’ve always known I was gay. It is a deeply ingrained part of who I am.Is it biological? I don’t know.All I know is that me ‘choosing’ to try to be straight would be a disaster for all involved.Countless gay people have risked their lives, their jobs, etc., to be who they are.If it was such a casual choice do you really think people would risk dying for it?

  • ethanquern

    When straight people say that gay sexuality is a “choice” it is gloriously amusing. Since they’re not gay, and they can ONLY speak from experience, it is only logical that THEIR sexuality is what is “chosen.” What they say has no bearing on “gay” sexuality, since not being gay they have no standing on which to make such a statement.Therefore, every straight person who says gay sexuality is “a choice” must therefore either be secretly “bi” or “gay” themselves. It’s the ONLY logical conclusion one can draw from such statements.As a gay man, I can tell you irrevocably, that gay sexuality is NOT a choice.QED

  • HillMan

    “The Bible does not say that “slavery is OK.” At least the term “slavery” that you are equating to modern times.”Nonsense. It’s all over the Old Testament, even to the point of instructing masters on how much they can beat their slaves.And Paul, in the NT, is quite clear about slaves and their place. To the point that he returned a runaway slave to the slave master.

  • saami

    Did it ever occur to those of you who are homophobic that your God created gay people? Why would your God create someone that is evil and unworthy in the first place? For crying out loud, give it up and live and let live. Gay people are just people and deserve the same rights and resposnsabilities as every citizen. At 65, I am so sick of the garbage spewed at them out of ignorance. My having blue eyes is no different than someone being gay; we didn’t choose that’s how we came into this world.

  • Paganplace

    “And Paul, in the NT, is quite clear about slaves and their place. To the point that he returned a runaway slave to the slave master.”Yeeeah. Frankly, if I *were* a Christian, that Paul could be first in line to kiss my queer Irish arse. Dude had *issues.* And in old Greece he went out of his way for em.

  • Paganplace

    (OK, that may not have been precisely what *Christians,* even Irish ones, would call Christian, strictly speaking, but this is what you get for worshipping books. Maybe we’re all happier, this way. Just, no reason you need to get up in a gal’s life like you do on some slaver’s words.’ Capiche?

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    What I CANNOT STAND about people like Globealone is that he pretends to be such a good Christian, out of one side of his mouth, and then out of the other side of his mouth, he talks about gay people like they are bugs on a slide under a microscope. Well, they are not bugs; they are people, human beings, and they are present among us for every conversation that we have about them, and about what rights they may or may not be granted. They are among the tax paying citizens of Oklahoma, when the state legislature has to have a vote to ok a prayer given by a gay pastor, as though God in Heaven could possibly care. It is not the State Legislature of Oklahoma that decides what God is allowed to hear or not hear. Their vote on such a matter is totally inane and ridiculous. But they feel they must cater to the ignornace of people like Globealone.

  • ricklinguist

    The issue of “choice” has always struck me as a red herring, but, for the record, I am gay and I most decidedly did NOT choose to be gay. Egads, I was “there”! I’d know if I “chose”! Instead, when I first began to realize I was gay (at the ripe old age of about 12), I didn’t know what to make of it. I remember going to the library looking things up trying to make sense of what was going on inside me. By age 14, I knew. And I spent the next couple of decades in a sometimes desperate effort to CHANGE my sexual orientation. And that included lots of prayer.Does that sound like a “choice”?I have no idea what determines sexual orientation. Could be genetic, but I am not a geneticist. Could be development in utero, but I am not an endocrinologist. Could be that I was dropped on my head as an infant; if so, don’t remember. Also, don’t care.But PLEASE don’t tell me I “choose” my sexual orientation. That, I am 100% certain, is simply not true.

  • stadtbear

    Globalone:>”Given that, please PROVE to me that sexual orientation is genetic.”If you have PROOF that it is not genetic, please present it. You are a misguided, miseducated, self-righteous christer. You are one of the false prophets against which the bible warns us. CASE CLOSED. END OF STORY.I’m also entertaining the thought that you and spidermean2 are lovers. Can you prove that you are not?

  • paris1969

    I am so disgusted with just the idea that this happened in this country. Are the people in the Oklahoma legislature that ignorant? When do people like this stop trying to make God in man’s image instead of the other way around?

  • arosscpa

    Rev. James cannot be said to have offered any offense to the OK Senate by opening a plenary legislative session with the “Peace Prayer,” a 20th century prayer often (wrongfully) attributed to Francis of Assisi.The issue seems to lie in Rev. James introducing a person of his same gender as his “lover and fiance” in a state and nation that has overwhelmingly and repeatedly affirmed that same-sex marriage is not an acceptable, recognized legal domestic form.While Rev. James’ actions have some echoes in civil rights history, most citizens do not believe that gay marriage is a civil rights issue. (Many Christian groups, including the Catholic Church, do maintain that either criminalizing same sex genital activity, or discriminating against a same-sex attracted individual is immoral and should be legally forbidden.On the other hand, if someone is invited to perform a perfunctory civil duty of opening the legislative session with prayer, and in the course of it points to his/her blantant disagreement with laws previously past by the same body, someone might be offended by the logical inconsistency and implied disrespect for the civil body.

  • newsboy3

    My, my, look at all the Christian bashers come out of the woodwork. hehehe I find it hilarious that a person who disagrees with homosexuality is labeled ignorant and a “hater” but it’s fine and dandy to bash a Christian. You folks are a bunch of hypocrites.

  • newsboy3

    HillMan wrote: Actually, He does mention gay people when He speaks of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah…which, by the way, was destroyed due to wickedness: homosexuality included and brought to the fore. Of course, He also speaks of unbelief in Him as being even more intolerable in God’s sight; judgment being more unbearable when it finally comes. Either way, most of you folks here are in big trouble. Nonetheless: eat, drink, and be merry!

  • HillMan

    “My, my, look at all the Christian bashers come out of the woodwork. hehehe I find it hilarious that a person who disagrees with homosexuality is labeled ignorant and a “hater” but it’s fine and dandy to bash a Christian.”Simply not true. I personally recognize that there are many fine Christians out there.And, of course, I’m not advocating denying Christians the chance to see their loved ones in the hospital, the chance to leave their estates to their loved ones, the chance to have a stable family structure.Sadly, many of those Christians don’t return me the favor.It’s ironic that you use the term ‘bash’. I know of very few if any cases where a gay person has beaten or killed a Christian because they were a Christian.But history is filled with Christians beating and killing gay people.

  • newsboy3

    HillMan wrote: Here we go again, with the God-hater. Anyway, Paul makes it perfectly clear that slavery is against the will of God and tells those in the church that owned slaves, in more words, to reconsider and remember the slave is God’s child too. The same concept is true in the Old Testament, but don’t have time to explain…especially since I’m sure you wouldn’t listen anyway.

  • newsboy3

    Need to correct prior post: Hilman wrote:Nonsense. It’s all over the Old Testament, even to the point of instructing masters on how much they can beat their slaves.And Paul, in the NT, is quite clear about slaves and their place. To the point that he returned a runaway slave to the slave master.————————-Refer to answer below. ;)

  • newsboy3

    Hillman? Really? History is full of Christians killing gay people? hehehehe. That’s a good one. Which history books have you been reading? Although that’s not true, history is full of gay people killing Christians, i.e. the Roman Empire. It is also full of non-believers killing Christians. Check that.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Arosscpa : Gay people are citizens under the Constitution, the same as anybody else, and have the same freedom of speech as anyone else.The problem that the Catholic Church, the Baptist Church, the Mormon Church and other churches have with gay people is that they have found a voice. Gay people can no longer be beat-up on and scape-goated for every little thing. Because the injustice of it will be pointed it out.The Catholic Church may promote the BIG LIE that being gay is a sin, but that does not make it true. This is not twelfth century Italy; and we are done burning people at the stake for standing up to the lies of the POWERFUL.Being gay is not a choice. Being gay is not a sin. Gay people are not God’s mistakes and throw-aways.If your religion cannot handle the fact that gay people exist, then it is a rickety and flimsy belief system. Gay people are a part of life. They exist among us. They are not bad; they are good. It is not gay people who need a psychiatrist to “cure” them, because being gay is not an illness and there is no cure for it. Seeking to cure healthy people of made up mental illnesses is what they did in the old Soviet Union, and what still probably goes on in today in countries like Iran.

  • coloradodog

    The small and shallow neochristian god made gays but will not listen to them. Maybe the tornadoes in Oklahoma is their god’s punishment for not killing all the gays like Hitler tried to do. Another day in Jesuslandia.

  • michael_from_sydney

    I don’t know why people bother responding to either “spidermean2″ or “ccnl” on this or any other religious blog. CCNL just repeats the same cynical dismissal of any doctrine of any established religion – read one CCNL blog, you’ve read them all. As for “Spidermean2″ – this is what you get someone tries to interpret Scripture while cut off from the vine of Christ’s Church.

  • Chops2

    “The prayer was then put to a vote”If you really think about that, it is a frightning sentence.

  • CalSailor

    As I read the posts after the one I posted earlier today, I am struck (again) by the written posts of those acknowledging they are gay. Every single one of them says: I am gay; I did not choose it, it is who I am. As someone who has long known that I live among both gay and straight, since all human societies are made up of both gays and straights, I have welcomed both; I have friends among both gay and straights, and OF ALL the GAY AND LESBIANS I have known every single one says “I am that way because it is who I am. I did not choose this.” Because of the biases of many in our society, including too many posting here, for many gays and lesbians, gradually coming to understand who they are is often a very difficult period. Many, if not most, go through a period where they would give almost anything to *not* be gay. But their orientation is simply not changeable. Those of us who have not had to live in the 21st century world of gays have no standing. The only thing we should do is accept them (and each other) as God has made them, and us. My closest friend is a man who understood he was different at a very young age, and has come to terms with it over the last 40+ years. It has made him a gentle, honest and loving man, and one of the best Christians I have ever known. I do not understand how our sexuality comes about; I don’t understand hatred, either, or violence against other living beings, or many other sins in the world. But I know that gays are no different than anyone else; capable of as much as any other person, for good and ill. They have enriched my life, and I am a better person for knowing them.As to my ultimate destination, as well as theirs, I know that that ultimately we all depend on a gracious God. I’ll leave the math to him.Pr Chris

  • Chops2

    Newsboy 3:It is also full of christians killing non believers and even believers (witch trials, The Inquisition to name 2). Check that. While the bible doesnt say patently that slavery “ok” as u put it, it is regulating slavery is it not? By regulating it you are condoning it are you not?You can’t have it both ways.

  • Paganplace

    Well, at least the hateful measure was in fact voted down… I warned you Christians start eroding these separations, and you’ll be at each other, next. Gay people are just an excuse.Legislators are not supposed to be in the *position* of determining what faiths are to be represented in government, never mind what ideology *is* ‘the faith’ or what people of what minorities can represent it. And most *especially* not use procedural votes to try and say what ‘God’ wants to be even *acknowledged in the record to have even happened* based on how how they vote on issues related to a minority…

  • lepidopteryx

    CCNL :

  • michael_from_sydney

    Danielinthelionsden – as a Catholic, I am especially saddened when people of my faith express hatred towards gay people. The Catholic Church officially teaches that sodomy is a sin, which of course brands as sinful any physical expression of homosexual love. It also teaches that fornication is a sin, which equally brands as sinful any sex by straight people outside the relationship of Holy Matrimony – this declares sinful sex before marriage as well as adultery. It also teaches that masturbation is a sin. Therefore, to reserve special condemnation for homosexual acts, over and above the condemnation of adultery, divorce, masturbation and extra-marital sex, is nothing but hypocrisy.Further, these teachings all spring from the Church’s reflection, over the past 2,000 years or so, upon the 6th Commandment (against committing adultery) and the 9th Commandment (against coveting your neighbour’s wife), both read in the light of Jesus Christ’s fuller teachings on these topics in the Sermon on the Mount and elsewhere in the Gospels. They are intended to bolster the purpose of the institution of marriage, as taught by the Church – the procreation, nurturing and education of offspring. To say that this teaching is hard for mere mortals to put into practice in their day-to-day lives is probably the understatement of the past two millenia! However, this teaching must be read in the light of ALL declararions of sin by the Catholic Church – the professed aim is perfection, as shown and taught to the infant Church by Jesus Christ, and passed down faithfully by the Apostles and their successors. The Church recognises that in this, as in any other area of human sin, nobody is perfect through their own merit – this is why the Church, following the teachings of Christ, administers the Sacrament of Reconciliation to all who penitently confess their sins. The overriding teaching is that in this, as in any other area of human weakness, is that we should as Christians be concerned with helping our neighbour, not condemning them. The aim is most definitely NOT to provide as many grounds as possible for branding people as bound for hell.

  • CalSailor

    Of Sodom and GomorrahThe story: Two angels (known to be such?) come to visit Lot in the city of Sodom. They are met at the gate by Lot, who invites them to stay at his (Lot’s) house. They do so. Lot offers them a feast. While they are eating, the men of Sodom–all of them, from the oldest to the youngest, according to the text, surround Lot’s house and demand that he gife up his guests, so the men of the city might abuse them.Social background: In this time and place–oh, BTW, a situation that has continued until today in much of the world, such as Afghanistan–one who comes to your city in peace is owed hospitality. This is what Lot has done. They are strangers, ie, probably not of the same tribe as the residents of Sodom. The townspeople, however, wish to abuse them (in the English text, to “know them”. The most humiliating thing that could happen to a man in this society is to make him take the female role, especially in coerced activity. In other words, this is homosexual RAPE! not unlike what happens in prisons all over the world.)Lot does as his society demands: People who have come in peace and have accepted hospitality must be protected, even at the cost of the host’s life [beginning to understand, perhaps, why *we* (allies) can't find Osama bin Laden???]. And so, to protect his guests, he offers up his own daughters, to satisfy the men of the town. But the men object, and threaten to destroy Lot, his whole family as well as the guests. But the guests ultimately protect Lot for his willingness to give his family, and Lot’s family is directed to flee for their lives and not look back.The story here is about the condemnation for the “Other”–the one who is different. It is not about what we understand by modern day homosexuality. Are we to understand that ALL the men of Sodom are gay? Of course not. This is about heterosexuals using sex to humiliate outsiders. The lesson here is not about homosexuality, but about people who hate others based on language, nation or race.I would be happy to have this discussion on the basis of either the Hebrew (Torah) or Greek (LXX) texts, but typing this is either Hebrew or Greek is just too hard. But for those who wich to draw lessons from scripture, it is perhaps good to start by understanding what it is saying (one suggestion: Buy a Bible that is in paragraphs, not in separate verses, so you can see the context.)Pr Chris

  • newsboy3

    CalSailor wrote:ANDThe story here is about the condemnation for the “Other”–the one who is different. It is not about what we understand by modern day homosexuality. Are we to understand that ALL the men of Sodom are gay? Of course not. This is about heterosexuals using sex to humiliate outsiders. The lesson here is not about homosexuality, but about people who hate others based on language, nation or race.______________________________Your explanation is extra-Biblical…which, of course, is just silly in that nothing of Sodom and Gomorrah would be known if not for the account in the Bible as the Source. The account goes as well, that the men wanted to have “sex” with the visitors (angels). Whether they knew them to be angels or not is beside the point and meaningless. For a person of the certain sex to want to have sex with another person of that same sex is homosexuality; this is the key, according to the Word of God, which showed the complete depravity and wickedness of the people thereof…and why God destroyed them. While the lesson may not be about “homosexuality” alone, it is about the ruin of the wicked at the Hands and Judgment of God…of which homosexuality is apart. The Word of God says as well that homosexuality pervading a society is one of the last clues that God has given up on that society. In the end, everyone can believe themselves to be right here, but the final answer belongs to the God Who judges each man according to His Word…which, of course, is the Bible; the very Bible that speaks of Sodom and Gomorrah and explains the wickedness therein in by making clear the homosexuality that pervaded that society.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    GlobealoneYou sitll did not answer my questions which were:1) why don’t you ask a gay person if being gay is a choice? and 2) why don’t you tell us how you have controlled and chosen you own sexual orientation.I do not think that you will take me up on these questions, because I think your search for truth is not in good faith, and that you are not really interested in the truth.You asked if sexual orientation is “…Akin to being hungry or breathing air. We just do it….”BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVO! and BRAVISIMO!!! Mr. Globealone. You have said it exactly, and in a beautiful metaphor, all on your own. Now that you have said it, do you understand it? Or were you just being snide and sarcastic?Then you said, “If that is the case, then how do we reconcile someone like Anne Heche who was clearly gay, and is now clearly not. Which sexual orientation is she betraying? Or, do we simply explain it all away by creating a new bucket and calling it bi-sexual?”This is what I am talking about, that you talk about gay people like they are bugs under a glass, in an extremely disrespectful way, without seeming to realize that they are here too, listening to your snide and mean conversation. You should be embarrased and ashamed of yourself, but I doubt that you have enough sense to udnerstand why. It is a little like Archie Bunker telling a Jewish person how much he hates Jews.I know almost nothing about Ann Heche, so I do not know that she was clearly gay but now she is clearly not gay. I believe that most people are heterosexual or homosexual, but some people may be bisexual. But a person who is bisexual does not choose that either. You think that they choose from one moment to the next to be gay or straigt? You have got to be a lunatic, if that is what you believe.You should ask people who claim to be bisexual what it is like, why are that way, and then believe them. That is just plain old common sense, which you do not seem to have. If you can’t find anyone to ask, then what’s it to ya?Just don’t worry about it.

  • ricklinguist

    To Globalone:I guess I’d put it as follows: being gay is a trait that one realizes one has, usually at a pretty young age. It’s analogous to how most teenagers realize they are heterosexual. Generally, teenage boys begin to realize they “like” girls “that way”. Some teenage boys, however, begin to realize they “like” boys “that way”. It’s not “sitting in your unconscious”. It’s pretty much conscious, front and center (pun intended). ;-) And we don’t have to “do” anything. In other words, dating is optional. ;-) (Sorry to the women readers here. The same analogies apply for straight women and Lesbians.)As for Anne Heche, as I understand it, she dated men, then she dated a woman, then she dated and married a man. Assuming that she was attracted to and/or in love with each of the individuals whom she dated at various times, then, yes, by definition, she is bisexual. An old bucket, by the way! (You’d have to ask her if she was attracted to or in love with them, of course.) Being bisexual doesn’t mean one is having sex with individuals of both sexes at the same time or, indeed, at any time. Sexual orientation isn’t BEHAVIOR. One can be completely celibate and gay, straight, or bisexual. You simply cannot determine anyone’s sexual orientation automatically by one’s sexual activity. People have sex (or don’t) for all kinds of reasons. Many gay people have married heterosexually due to societal pressure—that did not mysteriously make them straight. And the terribly “unlucky” (?) individual who goes out every night trying to have sex but fails each time isn’t “asexual”, no matter how unlucky he happens to be. ;-)Hope that helps.Linguist

  • onthejourney

    The prayer offered was well meaning and very appropriate, it was in no way offensive or worthy of a vote.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Newsboy3 = cluelessCalSailor = clued-in

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Ricklinguist : Globalone is not really interested in finding out anything or having a conversation. He is just being a low-grade nuisance.Your reply to him was very polite, more than he deserves, and a better answer than I could give. I can’t wait to see how he misconstrues it all in a thicket of confusion; and I wonder what self-congratulatory put-downs he will serve up to you. Your politeness to him is reminding me that I should not contend with someone like him while I am tired.

  • CCNL

    lepidopteryx,One assumes the gay community prays privately, 24/7 that the stigma of AIDs will one day disappear. And it is obvious that state legislatures will never pray for a good hand job unlike those prayers of a private citizen who finds wet dreams and masturbation to be a method of harmless sexual release.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Anti-gay people know it is wrong, but they just cannot help themselves. The must say that sexual ortientaion is a choice, because they know that is the only way to justify their biogtry against gay people. Now they are actually condenming Christian prayer if a gay person is the one who is saying it. Of course they know they have made a political mis-step. They their true and secret feelings slipped out, that they hate the sinner as well as the sin.

  • newsboy3

    Chops2 wrote: Newsboy 3 wrote:Chops2 wrote: It is also full of christians killing non believers and even believers (witch trials, The Inquisition to name 2). Check that. While the bible doesnt say patently that slavery “ok” as u put it, it is regulating slavery is it not? By regulating it you are condoning it are you not?You can’t have it both ways.Your second argument is more complicated and you would really need to “want” to understand slavery in the context of the Bible before I would spend much time on it here. Suffice it to say, the point, in the end, was to change the heart of the people. We’re speaking in a context of societal norms here: time and place…and a whole mess of other issues. If one followed the Word of God, there would be no slaves. In the end, there are slaves to this day due to the fact that few listen to God; if you would like, then this is your issue as well then. You really need to speak to your fellow non-Christians about there behavior. ;)

  • wjfreeman1

    This is so pathetic. It is amazing that the gay community is still an acceptable target for bigotry and hatred. And any comments that support this deluded hatred are also hateful bigots.

  • CalSailor

    newsboy3 : ANDThe story here is about the condemnation for the “Other”–the one who is different. It is not about what we understand by modern day homosexuality. Are we to understand that ALL the men of Sodom are gay? Of course not. This is about heterosexuals using sex to humiliate outsiders. The lesson here is not about homosexuality, but about people who hate others based on language, nation or race.______________________________Newsboy, the first quote above, comes from the text:Gen 19:1: The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2: He said,”Please, my lords, turn aside to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you can rise early and go on your way.” They said, “No, we will spend the night in the square.” 3. But he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. 4. But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house; 5. and they called to Lot: “where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us,so that we may know him.”This is the text. The angels are two of the three who appeared to Abraham at the Oak of Mamre (Genesis chap. 18), a text often called, according to the iconography of Russia, The Old Testament Trinity. Whether the men of Sodom knew who they were is unknown, but the reader of the text know that they are God’s agents, at the least, perhaps even the personification of God himself. So the men–ALL of them–are acting as a mob determined to take them. This sounds like stories of lynchings in the US South in the 19th century.Newboy says: While the lesson may not be about “homosexuality” alone, it is about the ruin of the wicked at the Hands and Judgment of God…of which homosexuality is apart. The Word of God says as well that homosexuality pervading a society is one of the last clues that God has given up on that society. In the end, everyone can believe themselves to be right here, but the final answer belongs to the God Who judges each man according to His Word…which, of course, is the Bible; the very Bible that speaks of Sodom and Gomorrah and explains Newsboy: Your reply shows why I stated we have to understand the scriptures we are using to support our opinions.[a definition: I am going to use "biological homosexuality" as a shorthand for the sort of current understanding of homosexuality that tries to explain sexual orientation, ie, the orientation and/or sexual attraction toward one of the same sex. This is distinct from "homosexual activity" that is, a single sexual act of two people of the same sex. Homosexual activity says nothing about the biological homosexuality of either participant, nor does biological homosexuality say anything about the conduct and action of the one who self identifies as homosexual.]The men of Sodom may or may not have known that the two guests of Lot were angels. There is NOTHING in the story of Sodom that says they knew. The identification of them as angels was in the previous pericope. Why is this important? Perhaps the men of Sodom might have acted differently had they known? As far as the citizens of the town knew, they were merely from somewhere else–strangers.You say that the men wanted to have “sex” with the visitors/angels means homosexuality. BUT there is a very different situation between the sort of homosexual rape indicated here by Genesis, and later by Paul, and biological homosexuality. The Bible, nowhere speaks of what we consider biological homosexuality. EVERY biblical passage assumes a heterosexual individual willfully having homosexual activity. Talk to anyone concerning homosexual rape in prison. It is no different than heterosexual rape: It is about assserting power and authority; in other words, about violence, not about sex. That’s what was going on in Sodom. It was the united actions of the citizens against the visitors. Do you honestly want to argue that every man in Sodom was a biological homosexual? How then did the town survive? Did these biological homosexuals establish families and live like heterosexuals? Of course not. This is willfully sinful behavior. I agree with you there, and as such, it is something God condemns in scripture. But it is no more or less sinful than other sins.How then did Abraham argue with God about saving the town for the sake of the righteous… according to your take, no one was righteous…not one! Because EVERYONE participated [of course, women don't count in this story, as usual]You claim that my post is “extra-Biblical”. Perhaps, if your only understanding is a literal verse-by-verse reading. But I would submit unless you understand the context of the text, you don’t understand the text. It is very clear concerning what I said about outsiders. There are plenty of other Biblical texts dealing with “strangers” “aliens” and others with whom Israel had to deal. Newsboy, what do you think Gen 19:8 means, where Lot tries to protect his visitors: Look, I have two daughters who have not known men [same verb as what the men of the city wanted to do to the two strangers], let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men for they have come under the shelter of my roof.My understanding of this text is accepted by a wide range of scholars, who read the text in the original and according to its context. So, again: The point is not about personal homosexuality; but about homosexual rape [HETEROsexual men using sexual violence against other men] not biological homosexuality where the sexual orientation of one is for the same gender. Suppose for the sake of argument, Newsboy, you get pulled over and end up in the jail overnight. During the night, you are subjected to rape by another prisoner. Does that make YOU homosexual? Are you sure he is homosexual? (The answer to both is “no”). Homosexual RAPE is RAPE, not homosexuality. It is generally acted out when women are not available, and it is deeply humiliating to the one who is raped, male or female. THAT’s what is going on.Newsboy, I’d suggest that you and several others who post spend some time with a good introduction to the bible by people who can explain the hermeneutics of the text. John Bright’s History of Israel is a great introduction, but it is long. It will give you knowledge of the society in which the Bible is written which will enable you to understand what it originally meant, and therefore, what it means today. Don’t forget, from ABraham to us is about 3500 years. It is NOT “extra-Biblical” to look at the context of every verse in order to understand it. That has been the way the text has been interpreted for 3000 or so years, from the Scribes, through the Rabbis and the Church up until today. It is a dialogue throughout the life of the church that shows how the Bible was and is understood.As one scholar has said: Every verse is interpreted by every other verse, and all of it interpreted through the cross.Pr chris

  • spidermean2

    “men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.” (Romans 1:27)Erase that verse in the Bible first so gays will be alowed to pray. What a shame. These people break God’s word without any shame.

  • elife1975

    Good point Spidey!!! We should erase that and many other portions of the bible so those mindless drones who rely on it as if it were an instruction manual would finally start to treat others with respect and dignity. Congrats on your first logical and coherent posting!

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    SpidermanWhy do you dislike gay people? Aren’t you being just a little snobby and stuck-up on this? You think you are better than gay people? That takes a lot of nerve, don’t you think, to say outright, that you are bettre and superior to to other peopole.What is wrong with gay people? What is it about being gay that is wrong? Why do you call it a sin? What do you think a sin is? Why do you think you are better than other people? I do not think you are better than other people, and probably not as good as most. So, it is a little ironic that a pipsqueak like you sits up on a high throne, judging the entire world.

  • spidermean2

    “Heaven and earth sahll pass away but my words sahll not pass away”When God said that gay relationship will be punished, you can count on it. God does NOT lie. It’s easier for the universe to melt than God reneging on his words.

  • dwaldman

    Here are a few fun thoughts to bring hope to some and dismay to others — ten years ago, there would have never been an out gay man serving in the Oklahoma legislator; a gay minister would never have been invited to deliver a prayer at the statehouse; if one had happened to slip through, the vote likely would have gone the other way; and you would not have seen nearly the number of gay-supportive posts on various news sites. Enjoy your days in the spotlight, Representatives Kern and Wright, for they are slipping away. All you have to look forward to is a shameful retirement thinking about how you became so lost, failing to live up to the ideals set by your own religion and causing so much pain to gays and their families.

  • elife1975

    And Spidey, your partaking in two of the seven deadly sins (mostly wrath, but pride as well) would damn you to hell as well. And according to you there will be a lot of gays there. Hope you’re ready to open your mind…

  • theologon

    God heard. Human beings can try to legislate against that, but in the end it’s just not their call.

  • jcovey

    Isn’t pride also a sin?

  • globalone

    Daniel,You stated, “The[y] must say that sexual ortientaion is a choice, because they know that is the only way to justify their biogtry against gay people.”I’m going to assume, then, that you believe sexual orientation is NOT a choice. I’m also going to assume that you do not subscribe to Christianity and that you follow more of a “proof” vs. “belief” system. (I apologize if any of these assumptions are inaccurate).Given that, please PROVE to me that sexual orientation is genetic. By “prove” I mean overwhelming scientific consensus. I don’t know of any but there very well could be.Here is what the American Psychological Association (“APA”) has to say….”There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors.”

  • spidermean2

    I don’t make any judgments. If God will allow gays in heaven, it’s his call. But He said that he won’t. It’s just a matter of reading comprehension. Im just teaching you guys how to comprehend instructions – God’s plain instructions. I have some gay friends myself and I don’t want them to go to hell. But it’s their decision if they want to burn in hell, not mine. God’s commandment is very clear.

  • dwaldman

    Spidermean — it would be more convincing if we could get some of those gay people to label you their “friend.” I doubt it.

  • Catken1

    So, Spidermean, your god tortures people forever and ever, in eternal, unimaginable agony, because they had the gall to fall in love with the “wrong” person. And you worship this brute, praise him, flatter him, think he’s perfect?

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Newsboy3I think you have met your match in Calsailor. He seems to be a bit more scolarly about the Bible than you do. On the subject of slavery, I am not particularly interested in arguing the Biblical legtimacy of this with you (but maybe Calsailor might like to).What I wanted to say about slavery is that the Southern Baptist Church was created to justify the political and moral righteousness of slavery in the South, and it has never really given a good acount of those days.It is amazing to me that the Amerian South, famous for slavery, the KKK, lynching, Jim Crowe, child-murder, church-bombing, is also, coincidentally, the most pious and religious section of the United States. That says alot about the South, and about the anti-gay agenda of Southern Conservative Christianity, namely, that it is founded and rests on a history of moral depravity.This group of “red-neck-Jesus-punks” has ZERO moral authority to dictate to any group of people that they are morally inferior and unfit.

  • GabrielRockman

    “But why does thou judge thy brother? or why does thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.”Romans 14:10-14

  • coloradodog

    I’m sure Jesus is real proud of the stupid ignorance that caused this conversation and the stupid ignorance of the conversation itself. I’ve said it before: If I were Jesus, I would change my last name for what people who pretend to call themselves “Christians” have become, have done and continue to do in His name.

  • spidermean2

    Gays are everywhere and you can’t escape them. Many are very nice people and have good sense of humor.God loves them but He cannot tolerate sin. I am a friend of gays coz Im giving them advance warning before it’s too late.”Open rebuke is better than secret love”

  • dwaldman

    Oh, Spidermean, that’s what you mean by “friend.”

  • Catken1

    God cannot tolerate people falling in love with the wrong mates, so he tortures them, forever and ever and ever. This is OK with you? This is moral behavior by you, Spidermean?

  • newsboy3

    Don’t really have time for the silliness here, I’m departing with: kingdoms rise and fall at the Word of God. All secure nations of yesteryear ended up falling into wickedness…and all of them fell at the hands of other nations. The Romans and the Greeks are two examples…though much more powerful in their day then we are in our own day. Do as you please, believe what you please, but the outcome belongs to God.P.S. Russia is surrounding us as we speak. Good luck. Newsboy signing off.

  • newsboy3

    DanielintheLionsDen : I think you have met your match in Calsailor. He seems to be a bit more scolarly about the Bible than you do. heheheheIn the words of Booker T. Washington: “Only Time Will Tell.”

  • GabrielRockman

    Spidermean2 – are you free of sin?

  • dwaldman

    Catken1 — It’s not humane, but it’s simple and requires no conscious thought on the part of Spidermean. That is apparently what he is looking for in the way of principles to order his life. Notice how he made no attempt to counter GABRIELROCKAN’s post. Those are the parts of the Bible he skips because they make his brain hurt.

  • spidermean2

    I had former classmates who are gay. Some had gay relationships now. They are still all my friends.

  • US-conscience

    No one is better than anyone else. Our default position is guilty. We are all Guilty. We have all broken Gods laws, no one is exempt. It is our nature. Human nature = sinful nature. But, while we were yet sinners, Chist died for us. It was a legal transaction. You broke Gods law and Jesus paid your fine. You can legally get under the contracted payment ( through repentance and faith ) or you can pay your fine yourself. Either way, no one is better than the other, it is only by grace, by God, that one is saved from the wrath of God that is rightly on all. The funny thing about those who have same sex attraction is that they tend to want to say that the Bible doesnt condemn the action – which it clearly does ( just like it condemns adultery, fornication, all types of sexual perversion…Hey, Jesus said ‘to even Look with Lust was Committing Adultery in your Heart’ it also condemns stealing, lying, cheating, murdering etc. ) But I dont see many Liars saying “we have liars pride” – I dont see many thieves claiming that stealing is not a sin as described in the Bible. I dont see many adulters standing up and saying “I’m an adulterer and I’m proud of it”. ( now there may be many liars, thieves and adulterers who are indeed proud of their nefarious conduct, they just dont make it public. ) They dont conduct programs to get the masses to say “hey, this is normal and good and right: there is nothing morally wrong with stealing” You can do anything you want, and I am no better than anyone else, but lets be honest and just admit that the Bible does in fact condemn the action as it does lying, stealing, lusting, coveting, etc… Lets admit that according to Jesus that we are all condemned as law breakers and headed for Gods judgment unless we repent and believe in Jesus and what he accomplished on the cross. You dont have to like it or believe it, but please dont say that it doesnt say what it clearly says.

  • spidermean2

    “are you free of sin?”Nope, Im not perfect. What I do is pray to God always (4 to 6 times a day) to help me avoid sin.

  • dwaldman

    The bible says slavery is OK. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a man of the cloth, but somehow he concluded that God was wrong on that one, and managed to convince a lot of other people, too.

  • dwaldman

    Do you preach to those “friends” about their sinful lifestyle, or do you just do it anonymously to strangers?

  • spidermean2

    Pray always to develop a healthy “Father-son” relationship with God. The more you pray the tighter the bond becomes and the stronger you can ward off sin.

  • BlakeVa

    But some of you are still missing the point. It’s not a question of whether the bible condemns or doesn’t condemn same sex relationships. The point is WHO CARES. The bible is not the law of the land. I don’t care what your religion says about gay relationships. It’s none of you business. Now if you want to make religion part of the official business of the government, then you better be prepared to hear religious points of view that conflict with your own. Of course, we always have the choice of keeping religion a private matter but for some reason Christians in the U.S. want religion to be part of government (unless they disagree with that religion……) It’s ridiculous.

  • carlaclaws

    Lepidopteryx wrote: “And it is obvious that state legislatures will never pray for a good hand job unlike those prayers of a private citizen who finds wet dreams and masturbation to be a method of harmless sexual release.”

  • GabrielRockman

    If being a homosexual is genetic, is it possible that being a homophobe could also be genetic?

  • dwaldman

    I have a friend whose family fled Iran after the revolution. Her father says that sometimes the political situation in the US reminds him of the years leading up to it.

  • carlaclaws

    bevjims1 wrote: “God wrote in Romans 2-1: “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.”

  • spidermean2

    The one who claimed to have a gay relationship, I left a pamphlet that I wrote in his house. I do it to my other friends who I think are lost.

  • dwaldman

    You left a pamphlet? LOL. Coward.

  • CalSailor

    Globalone says:”Given that, please PROVE to me that sexual orientation is genetic. By “prove” I mean overwhelming scientific consensus. I don’t know of any but there very well could be.”Globalone, let me ask a question. Actually two; one is sort of sarcastic, and the other is known by anyone who works with other species of animals and birds. The first is: If homosexuality is a choice, presumeably therefore, the choice is between homosexuality and heterosexuality. So, if you are “straight”, when did you choose to be straight? If you have “always been this way” perhaps that’s true of gays and lesbians as well. At least, that is the reality of those I know in this community.And secondly, assuming that sexuality is God given in order to propagate the species, the purpose of sexual activity is to get the individual’s genes into the gene pool and thus keep the diversity and strength of the species. (The benefits of diversity, and the dangers of inbreeding are why there are laws forbidding certain relatives from marrying.) According to the conservative Christian view, homosexuality is the willful, sinful choice of those born heterosexual (since homosexuality is a “choice”) to act deliberately contrarily to God’s will (ie, sinfully). That’s what is actually going on in the story of Sodom and Ghomorra (homosexual rape against the stranger), and what Paul condemns in Romans and is part of the holiness code of Leviticus.So, after this long preface: My second question: What explains homosexual activity in the animal/avian communities? Ask any farmer. There are gay animals, including cattle, cats, dogs, sheep, penguins (check out the homosexual pair at the New York Zoo…they’ve been together for 10 years.)and all sorts of birds? They can’t be acting to propogate the species, since they don’t get their genes into the genetic pool. In some bird colonies, homosexual activity is as much as 10-25% and even higher. I don’t have proof that this indicates genetics determines sexuality, but I don’t have a better explanation. Do you?Pr Chris

  • carlaclaws

    Chops2 wrote:”‘The prayer was then put to a vote’”If you really think about that, it is a frightning sentence.”

  • dwaldman

    “The one who claimed to have a gay relationship.” That’s how well you know your “friend.” Did you make any attempt to learn anything about this relationship — about what it meant to him/her? about what they meant to each other? about what attributes it had that reflected what God wants for all of us?

  • spidermean2

    Evangelicals are freedom loving people. Actually it was the baptists who fought for the First Ammendment.What’s wrong with the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is that Bush did not include the First Ammendment in their constitution.Those people should have some lessons about “freedom of conscience” and its conection with true salvation.

  • spidermean2

    It’s immaterial. God does not condone gay relationships and that makes it final. No ifs or buts.c ya later

  • spidermean2

    “You left a pamphlet?”Yup, coz I think it’s more effective. The person is left to ponder about himself than to debate.

  • saami

    When will the Christians, Muslems, Jews and others realize that homosexual people are like us. They are us, no different in every other way. I thought Jesus taught love, undonditional love. Being an atheist makes it easy not to hate people who are not like me “in every way”. Tolerance is the hallmark of a civilized society.

  • ladymacbeth977

    If I had a friend- or even a family member- leave an anti-gay pamphlet in my house, that person would never be invited to my house again. I think that when spidermean2 claims to have gay ‘friends,’ he must mean ‘acquaintances’ or ‘coworkers.’ It’s hard to imagine a gay person choosing to spend time with someone who despises them.

  • kjohnson3

    Yet another excellent example of why religion should not be brought into state business.Religious beliefs are intensely personal; government must be impartial. The two don’t mix.

  • bevjims1

    spidermean2 wrote: “The one who claimed to have a gay relationship, I left a pamphlet that I wrote in his house. I do it to my other friends who I think are lost.”God wrote in Romans 2-1: “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.”

  • dwaldman

    Spidermean — Assuming you haven’t run away from the debate (not that you consider it a debate), my parents were once like you. Then they met my partner (16 years this month, thank you very much), and their thinking evolved. At the end of my father’s life, while my mother and siblings were with the doctor talking about switching off the life support, it was my partner sitting by my father’s bed, holding his hand and wondering if he could hear his comforting words (but saying them anyway). When the final judgment comes, that is what God is going to focus on.

  • csintala79

    Yes, the only answer to all of this is for the government to scrupulously adhere to the principle of separation of church and state. This principle emerged in the Age of Enlightenment as a reaction to the bloody interfaith and interdenominational rivalry of the preceding centuries. Governing and religion don’t mix. Freestinker has a valid point, if prayer is to be conducted in the legislature, than it shouldn’t be restricted to prayers of Christian denominations.

  • cbmuzik

    spidermean2 : I don’t understand why it exist but it’s there. The wisest thing to do is to listen to God so no one burns.”Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: FEAR GOD and keep his commandmants for it is the WHOLE DUTY of man.” (by King Solomon)________________________________________________Hell doesn’t exist. That lie can be proven in so many texts in the scriptures. When Jesus died for the 3 days after he was resurrected and went back to heaven, did he mention anything about hell? As a matter of fact, when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, did the Bible say anything about Lazarus talking about hell? This hot, burning inferno he was in until Jesus brought him back to life? No.Hell is never mentioned in the Bible as a burning inferno. The Hebrew scriptures talk of hell as the common grave. That’s it. The fire burning in Gehenna that Jesus spoke of was not the literal grave. It symbolized the spiritual condition ones who died would be in who had no relationship with his Father. It would be a forever cutting off of their life…never again to live.Jesus resurrected to prove life would once again be restored to those who professed faith in him AND his Father, who directly talked to him from heaven when he was baptized and during his transfiguration with the 2 apostles who were present to witness it.So, no. Hell is NOT a burning place when you die. God would not wish that upon any of his servants. He wants all to attain everlating life. The Bible shows how that can be attained if people read and follow it closely. Closely…no self-interpretation.

  • dwaldman

    “It’s immaterial. God does not condone gay relationships and that makes it final. No ifs or buts.”Again, the Bible condones slavery, so that makes it final. That doesn’t necessarily mean God would have opposed emancipation, but apparently it wasn’t morally required. And the slaves shouldn’t have been trying to escape, or agitating for emancipation, since their clear instructions from God were to obey their masters.Sorry, black people — apparently your real problem was that you didn’t enslave us first, and you should be grateful that you were ever freed once the whole thing got going.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Gloabalone said,”I’m going to assume, then, that you believe sexual orientation is NOT a choice.”Your assumption is correct. Gay people do not choose to be gay. If you would like to know what gay people feel, then ask them. If you are not willing to ask gay people what they think, and to take them at their word, then maybe you should bow out of the conversation. You also said:,”I’m also going to assume that you do not subscribe to Christianity and that you follow more of a “proof” vs. “belief” system. (I apologize if any of these assumptions are inaccurate).”Why do you assume that? Is it impossible for you to imagine that a Christian could love gay people, and not hate them? I assume that you hate gay people, or least have a very strong bias against them, for whatever reason, which I think certainly disqualifies your “subscription” to Christianity. (Oh and by the way, I apologize if any of these assumptions are inaccurate).I do not like the discussion regarding who is a real Christian and who is not a real Christian, because to be honest, I think that many Christian groups and people who call themselves Christians have tainted and spoiled the word “Christin” and have trampled all over the name of Jesus Christ. Nowadays, Christians seem more interested in using their Christian “subscription” and the name of Christ to promote their variety of pollitical agendas, including their anit-gay angendas.I think that your additional question regarding faith vs belief is phrased ignorantly, and shows that you are not able or willing to give these things any more than superficial thought.You also said,”Given that, please PROVE to me that sexual orientation is genetic.”Why should I prove that to you? Although I suspect that being gay is genetic, I did not say it was; I merely said that people do not choose to be gay. If sexual orientation is something that people choose, then tell us the story of how you chose yours. But you cannot, can you? No one can. As I said before, why not just ask gay people if they chose to be gay. Then you will get it straight from the horse’s mouth, instead of second hand from people who have an anti-gay agenda.If all you know of black people was what you had heard from the KKK, then you would have a very bad opinion of black people, wouldn’t you?One more thing I would like to say about being a Christian: Christians are not better than other people, so it is not necessary for you to idenify the self-proclaimed Christians in your midst to know friend from foe. Christians are no more your friends, than non-Chrisians are your foes. Whoever taught you this, taught you wrong.And as you already know, merely calling oneself a Christian does not really mean anything does it? I am sure that you know that actions speak louder than words.

  • kjohnson3

    “At the end of my father’s life, while my mother and siblings were with the doctor talking about switching off the life support, it was my partner sitting by my father’s bed, holding his hand and wondering if he could hear his comforting words (but saying them anyway). When the final judgment comes, that is what God is going to focus on.”Dwaldman,That’s a beautiful story. It shows what real love and committment are all about.The spidermeanies of this world really just don’t count. They put their hands over their ears and parrot their lines over and over; eventually, they become background noise.Let them.What’s important is that people like you and your partner are here, and always will be, modeling what kindness and compassion look like so that others can recognize true goodness.And by the way, I’m sure your dad heard your partner’s voice. In the hospice facility I volunteer at, we are often reminded that hearing is the last sense we lose as we’re dying. Patients who appear to be — and probably are — comatose can still hear voices, and a familiar voice can comfort and soothe.

  • Bios

    It’s unbelievable that in this date and time some characters still freak out about gays. It’s pathological. Maybe we should be glad that Rev. Jones did not get shot.Heriger,

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Dear GlobealoneIt was only after I read your comments and then posted my long reply that I actually understood what you were getting at. I did not realize you were trying to set me up on points of logic, to prove my logic is wrong, and so I answered each paragraph, innocently, and honetstly.Since each point of your post was not in good faith, and my replies will mean nothing to you, you just wasted both your time and my time, didn’t you?In the future, if you have something to say, then just spit it out and say it. Now that I realize what you were getting at, I would answer your question like this:”I never said that being gay is genetic, just that gay people do not choose to be gay. So why should I prove a point that I never even made?”

  • bevjims1

    globalone : “The Bible does not say that “slavery is OK.” At least the term “slavery” that you are equating to modern times.”Really? How is it that different?Exodus 21:20-21 “And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.”

  • dwaldman

    Thanks, KJohnson. My father-in-law passed away last year after a five year battle with cancer. Hospice was a god-send because of volunteers and employees like you.We know who are true friend are and who the true Christians are. My partner’s best friend going back to college is one of the most Christian people I know. She refused an amnio during her first pregnancy because even if there was something wrong, abortion would never have been an option for her. Julie was born with Down Syndrome and a severe heart defect, and it was touch and go for the first year of her life. Mr. Spidermean, would you like to guess who the godfather is?

  • globalone

    Daniel,May I suggest that you read a post before commenting on it?Just because I believe sexual orientation is a choice doesn’t mean I hate gays. The two are mutually exclusive. Obviously.Furthermore, nowhere in my post did I articulate a position that Christians are “superior” or “better” than anyone else. But again, reading is fundamental.And if sexual orientation is not genetic, how can it not be anthing other than by choice? If I’m not wired to be a heterosexual, then being heterosexual is because of a choice that I have made. That choice could be based on a number of factors (i.e., social conditioning, etc.) BUT IT STILL REMAINS A CHOICE. Period. End of discussion.

  • dwaldman

    globalone : The Bible does not say that “slavery is OK.” At least the term “slavery” that you are equating to modern times—-Really? Perhaps you think all those “servants” were paid and free to leave at any time.

  • saami

    Whew! I am so happy that I gave up the sin and guilt and lies and hypocrasy of religion. Being an atheist, means I am responsible for my own thoughts and actions and can neither credit nor blame god. I also can look for the good in all people, try to “do unto others” and live a peaceful life without having to hate or fear someone or something because an old book written by men and translated to death says so.

  • globalone

    Rick,Thank you for your response. It was refreshing to read something on point, counter to my current thinking, and without the “You’re a gay-bashing homophobe devil worshipper” rhetoric some seem to insist on including in every post.My position has always been that heterosexual orientation is clearly the “natural order” of things and that choosing a separate path goes contrary to that which is ingrained within us when we are born. That it is of our own choice to engage in activity with the same sex (or both sexes). The factors behind such a choice, obviously, are numerous and can be wide-ranging.Also, it seems that we are also saying that noone is born with a specific orientation. That is, is Anne Heche the exception or the rule? Is our sexual orientation so loosely held in our wiring that it truly makes no difference which way we go?Rich blessings.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    For Advocate4Good and Newsboy3:What is your gripe with gay people?Why is being gay so terrible?When you say that being gay is an “abomination,” what do you mean by that?Why is being a gay a sin? What do you mean by sin? Just what constitutes sinful behaviour, anyway? What do you think sexual orientation means? What do you think it means to be gay? Did you choose your own sexual orientation? Do you think about homosexuality alot? If so, do you blame it on gay people?There is no need to be fearful of gay people. Being near them, meeting them, or talking to them cannot make you “go gay.” If that is what you are afraid of, then stop worrying about it.You are either gay, or you’re not. Face up to it and deal with it. It is no one’s fault. It is not a sin. It is not bad. It is not complicated. Just face it; get if over with. Then relax.And live and let live.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    GlobaloneYesterday, I thought that may you have had a “Hellen Keller, wa-wa” moment. Was I mistaken?I thought that perhaps you were beginning to understand. How come you do not believe a gay person’s explanation of being gay? How does your explanation trump his? How do you know more about it than he does? What do you know that he doesn’t know?What am I missing?

  • ricklinguist

    Thank you for the kind words, globalone. As for the “natural order” argument, it has always struck me as too narrow to assume that the “natural order” contains no room for variation. In fact, everywhere we look in nature, we see variation. And certainly, in mankind, variation is the rule in everything from physical characteristics to handedness (left- or right-hand dominance). I guess I would be surprised if there were simply no variation in something as complex as sexuality. It seems we have to allow for the fact that not everyone is the same. I generally don’t understand why people find that so surprising or disturbing.I don’t think I would go so far as to say that no one is “born with a specific orientation”. Again, I don’t know what determines sexual orientation, but the indications, both in the scientific literature and in people’s experiences, seem to point to orientations being pretty fixed from a pretty early age. I don’t see Anne Heche or bisexuals in general as exceptions to the rule. Think of it a bit like handedness: most people are right-hand dominant. A percentage (something like 10%) are left-hand dominant. But there are some people who are pretty much ambidextrous in most tasks. They don’t CHOOSE to be ambidextrous. They just are as comfortable using one hand as the other, whereas most of us find one hand much more comfortable for certain tasks than the other hand. Hand dominance even shows up in ultrasound in the womb, so it’s hard to argue that it is some kind of conscious “choice”! And hand dominance isn’t a “behavior” per se: I am left-hand dominant, but I can, if pressed, use my right hand for all sorts of things. It’s just not my dominant hand. And an ambidextrous person isn’t suddenly “right-handed” if she signs a check with her right-hand. She may well sign the next one with her left hand.Just my attempt at some analogies. ;-)Take care,

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    GlobaloneSince you keep asking about Anne Heche, I will guide you through some speculations. First of all, anyone may choose to have sex with anyone. A gay man may chooe to have sex with a woman, but that will not “cure” him of being gay. Many gay men, do indeed “choose” to be married, so that they will appear conventional and “normal” and do choose to have a nominal heterosexual sex life. Lesbians, likewise may choose to have sex with a man, but they are still lesbians. Lesbians, like gay men, may want to appear “normal” and may want children. Since lesbians are women, they have feminine traits, which includes an instinct for motherhood. Being gay is a collection of personality traits and predispositions; same sex attraction is one of these traits. A gay person may be unhappily married to a person of the opposite sex, have a family, and children, yet still be gay. I think that you do not understand sexual orientation, but simplify it in your own mind to be the same as “sex acts.” I feel that I know what sexual orientation means, and it is difficult for me to realize that people such as yourself have a different definition for it than I do. (I thought that Rick had covered this in his explanation to you; go back and re-read, if you like).Now on to the very currious case of Anne Heche:Why do you know about her? Why do you care about her? Because she is a Hollywood startlet, who has been publically engaged in both conventional and same-sex relationships. No one knows what is in her heart and what she truely feels, except her.(That is one of the many dangers in judging people by sexual orientation, because you can never know for certain what is going on in someone else’s mind).Anne Heche was, and is, a Hollywood starlet. She wanted to be famous. She wanted to be noticed. She wanted to in the newpapers. She wanted celebrity. Did she hitch her wagon to Ellen Degeneres because she had a real and true lesbian attraction for Ellen? Or did she deceive Ellen into a false love relationship, to play off of Ellen’s fame, and to intensify her own fame? Or did Anne and Ellen both get together, and plot a mutual phoney relationship, for their own publicity purposes?I do not know the answer to any of these quesstions because I do not know what goes on inside of other people’s hearts. I do know that you are very interested in Anne Heche, and I am suspicious that her true motivations are more toward fame and publicity for herself, and I am sketpical that she is either gay or bisexual. But so what? She got what she wanted, fame, since we are discussing her, aren’t we?But I assume that you were not actually asking about Anne Heche, the Hollywood movie star; I assume you were just using her as an example of all people who claim to be bisexual. Some gay people cannot face the fact that they are gay, and choose an outward personna that is homophobic and anti-gay, while inwardly, their homosexual attraction continues, because they cannot make it go away. Some of these people have severe problems. These are the gay clergy and gay Republican politiciaons that pop-up from time to time. Some gay people cannoot face the fact that they are gay and so they fudge the truth a little by saying that they are bisexual, even though they have only same sex attraction. Who is to kmow, and maybe it helps them deal with the homophobia of society.But, I believe that there are some bi-sexual people who experience similiar degrees of attraction for both sexes. They also do not choose this; it is just how they come out.Before ending this, you seem to make a big to-do about the word “choice.” I am not sure what you mean by that. Did you choose to love your wife? Can you choose to stop loving her, and then choose to love someone else, in her place?Knowing you a little as I do now, I think you will wonder why I ask all of these things of you, since it is not your sexual orientation that we are discussing. The reason why you should consider your own feelings and what would it be like to choose your sexual orientation, and what it would be like to choose the person whom you love, is because, yours is the only heart that you can know; you cannot know or analyze anyone else’s. But if you could figure out how your own heart works, then perhaps you could see that others’ hearts work the same way, too.

  • Catken1

    “Everyone asks, “How could a loving God create an eternal hell and cast people into it?” I’ll tell you how: because people have earned it.”People have earned it how? By suggesting that the words in a holy book written thousands of years ago for people living completely different lives, at a completely different stage of scientific knowledge, might not be entirely true or accurate or applicable in today’s world, with today’s knowledge? By suggesting that perhaps, a God who tortures people forever and ever for loving the wrong person, or following the wrong holy book out of the myriads we have available to us, each with the Exact SAME level of evidence (i.e. none) is not obviously kind or compassionate for doing so? Do you seriously suggest that torture of any kind, let alone eternal torture, is an appropriate punishment for not adhering to every regulation in the Bible? Or for following a different set of beliefs, or just for being gay? US-Conscience – liars, thieves and adulterers hurt people. Falling in love with someone of the same sex doesn’t. And yes, I can and do question the morality of a deity who condemns gay people to eternal torture because they fall in love with the wrong person. Also, of a deity who condemns pretty much everyone to eternal torture, cannot forgive ANYONE without having a blood sacrifice of his tortured son/self to enjoy, and only, in the end, chooses to forgive those who “believe” in this blood sacrifice, as if belief made everything all better. If God is God, why does God need blood sacrifice, or belief therein, in order to forgive? Why does God define love that hurts no one as sin deserving eternal torture in the first place? Why does God define being born human and flawed as sin deserving eternal torture, for that matter, given that none of us had a choice in the matter? No, I don’t have to “just accept” that the Bible says it’s bad, so it’s bad – in this country, I am allowed to question why I should accept such horrible doctrines as truth in the first place.

  • willemkraal

    any smart gay person should be aware that going to most churches in our country is like a jew going to a nazi meeting or an african american to a kkk round-up. be smart get a life of your own who needs this homophobic god/jezus bs, not moi! after the fall of communism most churches have used us gays and lesbians as a hatefull tool to raise more money so they can have more of their god/jezus tv shows to denigrate us. REMEMBER RELIGION POISONS EVERYTHING IT TOUCHES!!

  • kjohnson3

    “And in both cases, studies I have read tend to reflect this assumption.”Globalone,Not surprisingly, in the studies I’ve read, children reared by two same-sex parents grow up to be as well adjusted as children raised by two hetero parents.You show me yours; I’ll show you mine.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Globalone said:”While I would certainly not argue that two men or two women can love and nurture a child just as much…”…so why make the argument?Isn’t that passive aggressive? You say that you do not have anything against gay people, but then you dream up all kinds of arguments agains gay people.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    GlobaloneYou claim that you do not hate gay people. But, you obiously have some sort of grudge against them, which you are pretty unwilling to discuss.Why not? What is it about gay people that rubs you the wrong way? I suppose that live and let live, is some sort of lefty liberal Godless secularist plot? I don’t see how. If I have you wrong, then tell me what are you thinking when you give off your negative vibe towards gay people.

  • SavedGirl

    Homosexuality tears at the fabric of society and Wright was correct to nail the radical homosexual for using our goverment to promote a agenda fatal to health and soul

  • medogsbstfrnd

    Would the clergy–both those who occupy the Left and lizardly crawl around on the Right–do us the favor of not praying in public? Your Teacher told you NOT to pray in public. Using an opportunity for prayer to make a political statement is obscene and I would think blasphemous, but then you’d have to find some clergyperson with actual integrity to make that ruling. The inauguration was an embarrassment, especially Joseph Lowry’s idiotic limerick at the end of his prayer. So just do what your Teacher says and stay out of the political arena with your mendacious prayers.

  • rjacobs1

    I can’t help but find it ironic how humans, who claim to be subjects of this idea called god, are deciding for this omnipotent ruler of them all how he/she is supposed to think. If god is so powerful, why do these folks even think he cares what they say and, furthermore, why do they think s/he’s going to listen to their petty prejudices and political squabbles?

  • HillMan

    “Homosexuality tears at the fabric of society and Wright was correct to nail the radical homosexual for using our goverment to promote a agenda fatal to health and soul”Care to elaborate with some actual specifics?

  • homer4

    Blah, blah, blah. Evangelical Christians are on the losing side of history about homosexuality and that must truly, utterly suck that your make-believe god can’t prevent gay people from achieving equal rights. So glad I never believed in biblical fairy tales.

  • hyjanks

    I’ve read all the posts here (whew, that was boring)and noticed that there are no references to the religious texts created for the 10,000 or so gods other than Jesus. I wonder why that is? Maybe because all those other gods, spooks, ghosts and ethereal beings just fell out of favor with their flock? Maybe because of indifference, boredom or–dare I say–blasphemy?

  • ricklinguist

    “Homosexuality tears at the fabric of society…”With respect, not even remotely true.Homosexuality no more “tears at the fabric of society” than deafness “tears at the fabric of music” or lefthandedness “tears at the fabric” of good penmanship.It’s a trait. It’s a trait that a relatively small minority of the population has, doesn’t choose, and which means that that small minority will, if permitted, find some degree of happiness and fulfillment by sharing this wonderful life with someone they love.Seems like a reasonable approach to “homosexuality” to me. It leaves you and that “fabric of society” just fine. In fact, everyone prospers when each of us is treated fairly and with respect.Why? Because it makes the lives of good, innocent gay people better, as well as those who care about them, their friends, families, neighborhoods, co-workers. That “fabric of society” you speak of happens to include those gay people, too. They have as much stake in it as you or anyone else, and absolutely no desire or reason not to see it include them and flourish.

  • guez

    A state legislature *voting* to approve or disapprove a religious sentiment?!??!? This is exactly why the government shouldn’t get mixed up in religion. Inevitably it reinforces majoritarian prejudices and gives preference to certain religious expressions over others. This may have worked okay in the eighteenth century, when religious minorities just kept their mouths shut, but it doesn’t work in a pluralistic society. JOHN MEACHAM ARE YOU READING THIS?

  • Alex511

    fr saved girl:>Homosexuality tears at the fabric of society and Wright was correct to nail the radical homosexual for using our goverment to promote a agenda fatal to health and soul…Prove it, with VERIFIABLE AND RELIABLE sources, such as http://www.pflag.org and glaad. Ignore like the plague the following cults: “fotf”, the “afa” and the “frc”, as they are completely incapable of telling the simple TRUTH.

  • coloradodog

    Neochristian intolerance tears at the fabric of society and posters were correct to nail the radical fanatics for using our goverment to promote a agenda fatal to health and soul

  • jaynashvil

    Oklahoma Rep. Sally Kern just recently declared gays to be more dangerous than terrorists. Now, other state legislators are trying to get a prayer stricken from the record. A Christian prayer, no less! What is in the drinking water down there; some sort of chemical making them irrational bigots? Rep. John Wright may as well propose changing the slogan on the state’s license plates to read “Oklahoma, I wouldn’t stop here if I was you.”

  • newsboy3

    To me, the real issue has been overlooked. The defiance and wickedness in this world, but especially in this nation, is coming to a boiling point. This gay guy calling himself a minister and offering a public prayer to God, knowing full-well that God’s Word says clearly that the man’s lifestyle is an abomination, is yet even more emboldened and instead of simply “praying” to this God he has blasphemed, goes on as well to use the opportunity to spread his own agenda which the Word of God calls sin and wickedness.

  • Advocate4Good

    Isn’t it just like man to make up the rules as he goes, condoning unnatural affections, particularly when God has already given us His perfect Word for living a holy and godly life? People today have all but forgotten God and His Word. “But UNDERSTAND this, that in the last days will come (set in) perilous times of great stress and trouble [hard to deal with and hard to bear]. For people will be lovers of self and [utterly] self-centered, lovers of money and aroused by an inordinate [greedy] desire for wealth, proud and arrogant and contemptuous boasters. [They will be abusive (blasphemous, scoffing), disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy and profane. They will be] without natural [human] affection (callous and inhuman), relentless (admitting of no truce or appeasement); [they will be] slanderers (false accusers, troublemakers), intemperate and loose in morals and conduct, uncontrolled and fierce, haters of good. [They will be] treacherous [betrayers], rash, [and] inflated with self-conceit. [They will be] lovers of sensual pleasures and vain amusements more then and rather then lovers of God. For [although] they hold a form of piety (true religion), they deny and reject and are strangers to the power of it [their conduct belies the genuineness of their profession]. Avoid [all] such people [turn away from them].” II Timothy 3:1-5 “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.” John 4:23 All they have is their sin of wicked and perverted carnality; there is nothing holy in what they do and their judgment is indeed coming! “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.” Galatians 6:7. We as believers must continue in the faith, being prepared and ready for the rapture while those who are unprepared will be caught in the judgment of God Almighty, which is soon to become a reality! If you are found amongst the wicked, repent and come out from among them, turn back to God before its too late!!Advocate4Good

  • ricklinguist

    “Isn’t it just like man to make up the rules as he goes…”Indeed it is. And that, my friend, explains why most societies have their unassailable ‘word of God (or gods)’. There isn’t a tribal society out there that doesn’t attempt to explain what is or isn’t permitted by pinning it on “God’s word” in one form or the other. That includes the ancient Hebrews, of course.We all must reach our understanding of what God wants in exactly the same way: through introspection, prayer, observation, discussion. I believe you are mistaken if you think that good, decent and moral gay people arrive at the Truth in a way that’s different from the way you believe you’ve arrived at it.You simply want them to believe you are right. That’s fine. But that’s your business, not theirs.I respectfully suggest that that isn’t your role. Worry about what God expects of you, and let others worry about what He expects of them. You have no control over their beliefs, just as they have none over yours. Disparaging them serves no purpose, and only means that you feel you are in a better position to know God than they are.And, well, with respect, you are not.

  • kjohnson3

    bevjims1,Just FYI, OCD is known to have a genetic component, as do most of the anxiety spectrum disorders.

  • kjohnson3

    “Therefore, every straight person who says gay sexuality is “a choice” must therefore either be secretly “bi” or “gay” themselves. It’s the ONLY logical conclusion one can draw from such statements.”Ethanquern,This is a really good argument; it had never occurred to me.I’ll be interested to see the reponses you get. The homophobes will really have to twist themselves into pretzel shapes to wrestle with this one!

  • Bios

    Cal:Thanks for giving us a glance on the complexity of scripture interpretation.What I cannot fully understand though, is why people still think it is the word of a god, when it is obvious that it is anything but…Can it be understood from the scriptures that god is just a metaphor for the unexplainable or a greater power?

  • Freestinker

    “To me, the real issue has been overlooked. The defiance and wickedness in this world, but especially in this nation, is coming to a boiling point. This gay guy calling himself a minister and offering a public prayer to God, knowing full-well that God’s Word says clearly that the man’s lifestyle is an abomination, is yet even more emboldened and instead of simply “praying” to this God he has blasphemed, goes on as well to use the opportunity to spread his own agenda which the Word of God calls sin and wickedness. ——————————————–Oh please. Your God supposedly created all this mess so it looks like he got exactly what he asked for and nothing less.But god(s) are nothing more than creations of the human imagination so it doesn’t really matter anyway. Your myth seems real to you because it’s your myth … but it’s still just a myth.The real issue here is people who treat other people poorly while they shamefully hide behind an archaic myth that, ironically, calls them to do just the opposite.What good is a myth if those who supposedly believe it refuse to follow it’s core message?

  • ricklinguist

    “…I think you’ve exhausted your thoughts on the subject…”Hey, I’ve been told that before by people even before I’ve opened my mouth, so I guess I am doing pretty well here. ;-)Take care,

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    GloabaloneI agree with you that many people have children who should not. There are many bad parents. Divorce is a trauma that takes many many years for kids to recover from. But you take this obvious fact, and then generalize it to imply that all gay people would be bad parents, and then use that as a reason why gay marriage is a bad idea.But that is not the point. Most gay people do not anticipte having children. But many do now currently have children even though gay marriage is banned. The movement for gay marriage is not so that gay people can have children. I do not believe your concern for the kids is sincere; it is just another argument to block gay marriage.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    GloabaloneI agree with you that many people have children who should not. There are many bad parents. Divorce is a trauma that takes many many years for kids to recover from. But you take this obvious fact, and then generalize it to imply that all gay people would be bad parents, and then use that as a reason why gay marriage is a bad idea.But that is not the point. Most gay people do not anticipte having children. But many do now currently have children even though gay marriage is banned. The movement for gay marriage is not so that gay people can have children. I do not believe your concern for the kids is sincere; it is just another argument to block gay marriage.

  • globalone

    KJohnson,”Not surprisingly, in the studies I’ve read, children reared by two same-sex parents grow up to be as well adjusted as children raised by two hetero parents”— The issue becomes what your idea of “well adjusted” really is. As I stated earlier, I won’t refute that a child of a gay couple will feel any less love, compassion, caring, etc. than that of a hetero couple. But there are certain and unique parental attributes that are inherent in men that are not in women, and vice versa. And I have seen and read gay couples profess this to be their biggest worry. That gay men can’t give a child those things that are inherently female and gay women can’t provide those things that are inherently male.— One author I read summed it up like this, “The idea that men and women do not have entirely distinctive contributions to make to the rearing of a child is so absurd that it is frightening that many well-educated – and only the well-educated – people believe it”

  • globalone

    Daniel,”While I would certainly not argue that two men or two women can love and nurture a child just as much…”…so why make the argument?— Because parenting involves more than “loving” a child. See my prior response to KJohnson.

  • globalone

    Daniel,”But, you obiously have some sort of grudge against them”— I like to believe that I don’t. I am simply arguing statements of belief and the topic at hand happens to be about homosexuals.— If you made the statement that the Dallas Cowboys are the greatest football team of all time, I would argue that as well.

  • globalone

    Rick,Thank you for your follow up response. I think you’ve exhausted your thoughts on the subject so I won’t push further.I do appreciate the candor and will give your remarks some serious thought and consideration.Thanks again.

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