On Benedict and Holocaust Denial

Richard Cohen’s powerful column Tuesday is a reminder that Catholics should be speaking up about Pope Benedict XVI’s decision to … Continued

Richard Cohen’s powerful column Tuesday is a reminder that Catholics should be speaking up about Pope Benedict XVI’s decision to rescind the excommunication of Bishop Richard Williamson, the Holocaust denier. Williamson’s excommunication was withdrawn along with that of fellow bishops who are members of the Society of St. Pius X, the right-wing breakaway group that the Pope wants to bring back into the church. I hope Benedict gets to see Cohen’s column so he can understand the legitimate hurt and anger his decision unleashed.

I have wanted to write about this for some time, but kept getting called away by other stories. There is a lot to say about the politics of the decision — for a sharp analysis, see my friend Father Tom Reese’s piece elsewhere on this site — but for now, I’d like to focus on two disturbing aspects of this controversy.

The first goes to the viewpoint of the group Benedict has decided to conciliate. When people talk about “traditionalist” Catholics, they usually think of those who like the Latin Mass. There is nothing wrong with liking the Mass in Latin. While I prefer the vernacular Mass, I share a great affection for the Latin Mass (and can still recite parts of it from my childhood). But the Latin Mass is not the reason why so many on the far right reject the teachings of the Second Vatican Council, which brought in the great church reforms — the new liturgy being, in historical terms, the least important.

Vatican II marked the Catholic Church’s decision to make peace with the many positive achievements of modernity. Under Pope John XXIII, Catholicism embraced religious openness and toleration and the power of the democratic idea. It rejected, at long last, the slander that Jews bore collective responsibility for Jesus’ death. Pope John insisted that the church should pay attention to the “signs of the times,” and criticized ultra-traditionalists who saw “only darkness burdening the face of the earth.” He argued that the modern world offered “more than a few indications that augur well for the fate of the church and of humanity.” Catholicism has much to teach modernity, but only if it continues to accept modernity’s lessons, as Pope John did.

Does this reconciliation with the Saint Pius X Society in any way mean that Benedict is backing off the achievements of Vatican II? Is he backing away from some of its core teachings? His defenders insist not, and as a Catholic, I would like to hope not. Benedict in the past has endorsed Vatican II, but has also expressed doubts about its impact on the church. I’m glad, of course, that the Vatican has called upon Williamson to renounce his Holocaust denial. I think it’s also important for Benedict to offer a strong and ringing reaffirmation of the full legacy of Vatican II.

And it’s troubling, to put it mildly, that the issue of Williamson’s Holocaust denial was not front-and-center in the Pope’s decision-making on this. Father Reese explains the flaws in the process behind this decision, but it’s still hard to understand how this issue was simply overlooked.

Opposing anti-Semitism should be a central calling for all who think of themselves as Christians. If I may be permitted a personal note, as a Catholic who grew up in a Jewish neighborhood (and whose first two friends in the world were Jews), I was taught at a very young age that anti-Semitism was wrong – sinful – and I have appreciated the Church’s strong statements opposing such bigotry.

One of the most moving events I had ever had a chance to cover as a journalist was Pope John Paul II’s April 13, 1986 visit to a Roman synagogue, the first such papal visit on record. John Paul condemned persecution and expressions of anti-Semitism ”at any time and by anyone.”

“The Jewish religion is not ‘extrinsic’ to us, but in a certain way is ‘intrinsic’ to our own religion,”‘ John Paul said. “With Judaism, therefore, we have a relationship which we do not have with any other religion. You are our dearly beloved brothers, and, in a certain way, it could be said that you are our elder brothers.”

Amen.

As a liberal Catholic, I have, on balance, been relieved by Benedict’s papacy – relieved because he has, on the whole, proven to be pastoral and not as hard-line in his approach so many expected. He has appointed some good Bishops. I should also say (since it needs saying at this point) that Benedict has made it clear that he, like John Paul, strongly opposes anti-Semitism — although that fact makes you wonder all the more why he didn’t think through the implications of the Williamson decision.

I was particularly taken by Benedict’s first encyclical, “God is Love.” Benedict wrote: “Since God has first loved us, love is now no longer a mere ‘command’; it is the response to the gift of love with which God draws near to us. In a world where the name of God is sometimes associated with vengeance or even a duty of hatred and violence, this message is both timely and significant.”

Yes, indeed, and Holocaust denial is not consistent with the view that God is love, nor is it consistent with the truth. It’s good Benedict will sit down Thursday with Jewish leaders to discuss the fallout from his decision. I truly hope he realizes how much damage he has to undo.

E.J. Dionne is a syndicated columnist for The Washington Post.

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  • Paganplace

    I know everyone’s kinda studiously-once-born about things like this, but anyone remember *kings?* Particularly *absentee kings?* Here we’ve got maneuverings for worldwide influence… and the dude’s actual *kingdom* probably has most of its square footage *indoors.* Dig?

  • whoo_whoo

    I left the Church, because of it’s revisionist view of history, and specifically Church history. Anyone in the Church who tries to explain away, or deny the brutality of the Holocaust, is a creature of that walled up ecosystem. What I am saying is, there is a larger problem here. Structurally, ideologically, I don’t think the Catholic Church can get to grips with other historical controversies, if it does “solve” the Bishop Richard Williamson problem, how does that address the larger issue of a Catholic Church with it’s historical revisionistic outlook?

  • whoo_whoo

    Pope Benedict and Bishop Richard Williamson are connected with the same thread of historical denial, or historical intellectualism — a mechanism that is integral to the Catholic Church, and how the Church validates itself.

  • Paganplace

    “Thanks to the Pope we are returning to Nazism. I do not think that the damage he has caused can be undone.” Well, that stuff didn’t end with the Nazis, and it sure didn’t *start* with em. Guess regular folks will just have to do what we’ve always done. Try and work it out, anyway.

  • whoo_whoo

    I pray that all religious leaders, of all faiths, spread a message of hope, reconciliation, and peace, for all people, of all faiths. I pray that through faith, and dedication, we cleave to the truth, of what has been (right or wrong), and what can be. This is no easy task.

  • fishcrow

    Making crazy statements doesn’t warrant excommunication. Nor does making hateful statements. We are all sinners. We are all damaged. If we are outside of the Church we cut ourselves off from redemption. If the Pope waited for people to give up hate as a prerequisite for being in Communion with the Church, few of us would make it.

  • RJ24

    This eloquent apology for the Pope and the increasingly out of touch Catholic Church is undeserved. Williamson’s holocaust denial is only one aspect of this bizarre, angry persona. He has stated that women should not wear pants or attend Universities in large numbers. He has stated that gay people evoke a natural hatred and aggression in straight people. Furthermore, when the Pope embraces Williamson, does he not also embrace his antisemitism, sexism, homophobia and xenophobia? After all, I don’t see Rev. James Callan being invited back after he was excommunicated for supporting the rights of women and gays in his church.

  • GaiasChild

    Let’s see, he’s ex excommunicated and he’s rehabilitated. So now he’s maybe ex-rehabilitated and ex ex excommunicated? Or is he recommunicated and unrehabilitated? What he ought to be is quiet I think. If the Pope wants to recommunicate him, the Pope will. The Pope’s presiding over the longest running bureaucrazy in human history. But if God/Goddess had to pick just one church on Earth to be his/hers, would he/she want this one?

  • whoo_whoo

    “Making crazy statements doesn’t warrant excommunication.”I agree. I know this guy, Jesus, who made a whole bunch of crazy statements. Love your neighbor. Turn the other cheek. Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. Cast not the first stone. Call God “Pappa”. Revolutionary stuff. Wow! I don’t think Christians appreciate just how UPSETTING JESUS WAS.”This eloquent apology for the Pope and the increasingly out of touch Catholic Church is undeserved…”Yeah, the Catholic Church tends to be about 150 – 300 years behind the times, at any given significant historical time. The CC catches up, in time, I guess that is a good thing.

  • Geseke

    The Catholic Church has its Apostle’s Creed which is a list of what Catholics are required to believe. Now we have Pope Benedict’s Creed which we are required to believe.

  • Paganplace

    Yaknow, like so many other things in the Church, the thread of Holocaust denial runs deeper than most want to admit… The way they taught about it when *I* was in school, it was some totally isolated incident that impossibly popped up in the middle of Europe, was evil for a bit, produced a couple selfless Catholic martyrs, and then went away.

  • mikhastur

    I fear that rescinding these excommunications indicates precisely what worries Mr. Dionne. Lefebvre , Williamson et al were not excommunicated not for their adherence to tradition and hostility toward Vatican II. It was their flouting of papal authority that brought down John Paul II’s excommunication. Yes, their disobedience was motivated by their traditionalist beliefs, but it was not the reason that they were actually excommunicated.Now, given his past positions, one would think that the current pope would agree that such rejection of papal authority would merit excommunication. I fear, however, that welcoming these particular errant bishops back into the fold shows that Benedict feels kinship with their traditionalist beliefs. That kinship apparently has won out over concerns over papal authority. We certainly don’t see Benedict polevaulting over standard Vatican procedure to welcome other errant Catholics [with whom he probably vigorously disagrees on the merits] back into communion with the Church.

  • Ashevillain

    “Opposing anti-Semitism should be a central calling for all who think of themselves as Christians.” Actually, I think it’s the very people who call themselves Christians that have nurtured, refined, embraced, perfected, and practiced anti-Semitism over the last 1,000 years.

  • whoo_whoo

    “Actually, I think it’s the very people who call themselves Christians that have nurtured, refined, embraced, perfected, and practiced anti-Semitism over the last 1,000 years.”You are wrong. The Christians are but second-handers when it comes to formulating hatred of the Jews. Documented refined programs of anti-semitism go back to at least the 3rd century BCE, from the enlightened & humanistic Greeks, in sophisticated places of learning, like Alexandria. Then after that, it was the Romans.

  • p3aul

    OK, So what. There are probably millions of holocaust deniers in the world. What’s one more? The real issue is that Pope Wimpy I is taking the Church back to the middle ages. Even tho he doesn’t say it, he is anti-semetic and believes the only church whose members will be saved is the Catholic Church. He’s been planning all this since before he became Pope. In *his* “Catholic” church, there is no room for any other opinion then his. I’m sure if the Pope knew what I really thought, I would be excommunicated. Oh well let anyone try. I will still go to Mass and I will still take Holy communion any time I want!

  • nastycelt

    You can read far more racist views than Bishop Richard Williamson’s in the posts in any Israeli newspaper, 7 days a week. The only difference is, they pertain to the Palestinians. It’s quite common to hold such views in Israel. I for one am sick and tired of their perennial victim status.

  • whoo_whoo

    “I’m sure if the Pope knew what I really thought, I would be excommunicated. Oh well let anyone try. I will still go to Mass and I will still take Holy communion any time I want!”I know what you mean — there is an elasticity, or an undercurrent in Catholicism, at least in America, where you can identify to certain doctrines of the Church, but not others — and this is known by your congregation, or priests, and quietly accepted. Detractors of this call it being a “Cafeteria Catholic”. But from my point of view, and from the point of view of many American Catholics, this give-and-take makes sense.

  • mikhastur

    what, exactly, is there to debate, Santomauro? And it would appear that you are posting in the wrong forum. Holocaust “debate” and even outright denial are not crimes in the United States. Signs of, at best, boneheadedness and, at worst, outright revisionism motivated by bigotry, yes, but not crimes.

  • Stephen17

    Mr. Dionne would do well to refrain from preaching to the Holy Father, and instead pray earnestly for Peace in the Middle East.

  • stadtbear

    ReporterNotebook Author Profile Page:>Furthermore I deplore the fact that many so-called democratic states have laws that criminalize public doubting of the Holocaust.Name two.

  • Arminius

    stadtbear:Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 13 countries: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Switzerland.

  • inter1

    Whats so surprising about any of this? Naziism and the SS was allegedly founded on Jesuitic principals and guidance…. Himmler was a High ranking Knights of Malta member aka Jesuit.With just a little research its all verifiable, just google it if you dare.As well as what was behind the death camps and the slaughter of jews and protestants in eastern Europe and the Balkins

  • Geseke

    To Michael Santomauro: If Germar Rudolf gets any money from the sale of a book about the Holocaust, even one that tells both sides of the debate, the German government will probably confiscate the money. I fear that his passport will not be returned to him and he will not be allowed to leave Germany. You can be sure that he will never be allowed to speak or write again.

  • AlanNY

    This article and comments makes me think about what I love and hate about all religions and people.I love: Big ideas, America, the United States Constitution, facts, logic, truth, peace, freedom of speech, love, rule of law, belief in a higher power.I hate: Hate, racism, little ideas, bombing houses with families inside, ethnic cleansing, negotiating in bad faith, stealing, scary and insane religious zealotry, nationalism.I really don’t see any correlation between what I love and hate, and these religions and people. That makes these simple minded conversations really complicated.

  • Geseke

    According to a recent news story, “Bishop Williamson said he had ordered a book by Jean-Claude Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique And Operation Of The Gas Chambers”I wonder if he knows about Germar Rudolf’s books about the gas chambers. Presssac looked at documents; Germar looked at the gas chambers.

  • mikhastur

    >>>Mr. Dionne would do well to refrain from preaching to the Holy Father, and instead pray earnestly for Peace in the Middle Eastbecause, God forbid that anyone criticize the pope…. oh wait, that’s *precisely* what Benedict would like us to believe.And I don’t find the two activities mutually exclusive, especially if one truly cares about achieving that peace. Rescinding Williamson’s excommunication certainly did nothing on that account.

  • inter1

    Whats so surprising about any of this? Naziism and the SS was founded on Jesuitic principals and guidance…. Himmler was a High ranking Knights of Malta member aka Jesuit.With just a little research its all verifialble, just google it if you dare.As well as who was behind the death camps and the slaughter of jews and protestants in eastern Europe and the Balkins

  • Stephen17

    Mr. Dionne would do well to refrain from preaching against the Holy Father, and instead pray earnestly for Peace in the Middle East.

  • Mahalonuiloa

    Unfortunately, Pope Benedict XVl was not properly

  • Arminius

    Stephen17:Yes, we should all pray for peace in the Mideast, and elsewhere too. But I thought E.J. had some good criticism of the Bishop of Rome.

  • norriehoyt

    “As a liberal Catholic, I have, on balance, been relieved by Benedict’s papacy – relieved because he has, on the whole, proven to be pastoral and not as hard-line in his approach so many expected.”As a liberal non-Cathoic, I have, on balance, been highly disturbed by Benedict’s papacy, because I haven’t forgotten that you can’t get blood out of a stone or make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.Right, E.J.?

  • sunaj

    While this viewpoint may be objectionable to some, the act of villifying people because they question the accepted historical record of the holocaust or any other event, much less making it a crime is absurd, and represents a much bigger threat to a free society

  • Xavisev

    Who defines what so-called Holocaust denial is???Is doubting the tossed about figure of 6 million JEWSIs INCLUDING the number of non-Jewish victims considered denial as well? Is the Holocaust a registeredIs wondering about the reliability of some of the testimony of certain eyewitnesses denial too?Is asking about denial a form of denial?As you can see- this could go on forever.

  • RJ24

    sunaj “While this viewpoint may be objectionable to some, the act of villifying people because they question the accepted historical record of the holocaust or any other event, much less making it a crime is absurd, and represents a much bigger threat to a free society”This is not a fight over lofty ideals of “free society”. Nor is this discrimination against people who represent an “objectionable” viewpoint. This is outrage stemming from a common sense reaction to shocking ignorance and bigotry. It has also never been a “crime” to deny the (very well documented) holocaust. It is the duty of people who understand history, however, to challenge such claims. Just as it was the duty of scientists to challenge claims that the earth is the center of the universe, flat, and only a few thousand years old.In the United States we all have a right to our opinions, and it is our culture to exchange and engage each other with these opinions in a Socratic tradition. But sunaj, some opinions, as we have learned, are better than others.

  • FedUp1

    I don’t see how Dionne can feel optimistic about Ratzinger. I have followed his actions over the years and he scares me. The man has displayed that terrible Teutonic stubbornness and self-righteousness that has done so much damage to the world.The incorporation of the Lefebvrists is but an example of this. Cardinal Kasper has said publicly that Ratzinger did not consult with this step with the Vatican hierarchy. It takes some doing for a cardinal to publicly criticize a pope!The list of Ratzinger’s efforts to swing the Church back to medieval times is long. In fact, just last week we saw the re-emergence the of “indulgences” which caused Luther to defect.Is nobody going to discuss Ratzinger’s “sweep-it-under-the-rug” policy of pedophile priests when he was Prefect of The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith?Why doesn’t Dionne dwell on the influence of the reactionary and secretive Opus Dei in the Vatican since John Paul II and Ratzinger?Moreover, Ratzinger was influential in the election of Bush/Cheney in 2004. A personal friend of the Bush family, he wielded such strong pressure on U.S. Catholics to vote against Kerry that some feel he decided the elections.No, I cannot in good faith accept that this figure is good for the Church or for the world.

  • ratl

    Holocaust deniers and holocaust trademarkers both belittle the human tragedy. Religious zealots are the very root of evil. Ratzinger is only of them.

  • AJBF

    I am very gratified that so many people have spoken up in defense of Jews. It will be a sign of true progress when the pope’s horrific proclamations against gay people are met with the same outrage.

  • coloradodog

    In the meantime, Benedict promoted an ultraconservative pastor in Austria who suggested Hurricane Katrina was provoked by sin in New Orleans. This ex-Nazi thinks he can hide his heart from God but his actions make his beliefs all too apparent to the rest of us.

  • demtse

    AWWWww!!! Enough of this “holocaust denial” nonsense… It ain’t news…

  • stephenrhymer

    “Opposing anti-Semitism should be a central calling for all who think of themselves as Christians”Opposing discrimination against any people regardless of ethnicity is wrong. You do no thave to be Christian to be against genocide.You can be an athiest and be aainst both. Sadly, religion/faith is usually use as reason for comitting genocide. Christians talk a good talk but one only has to listen tot he likes fo John Hagee, Pat Robertson, et al to see that intollerence and discrimination is preached from the pulpit every Sunday. Christians need to spend more time practicing the tenants of their faith and less time pointing fingers.

  • hamishdad

    The Pope should tell Bishop Richard Williamson to go to…

  • mikedonovan1

    ‘Catholics should be speaking up about Pope Benedict XVI’s decision to rescind the excommunication of Bishop Richard Williamson’One who doesn’t do or believe as one is told by the pope cannot call oneself a catholic. One of the main distinctions between catholicism and christianity is that catholicism requires ultimate obedience to the pope.

  • mharwick

    Excommunicate the moronic, Jew hater from Argentina, the home of Nazis and their progeny that ran from Germany after WWII.

  • patricksarsfield

    E. J. Dionne is doing a lot of mind-reading here to keep an issue alive that really isn’t there. He’s not sure that the Pope is sufficiently committed to Vatican II (although the Pope has said he is) or to continuing Catholic-Jewish dialogue and the historical position that there unquestionably was an Holocaust (although again Benedict has affirmed such positions repeatedly both before and since Williamson’s bizarre views came to light).Apparently, Dionne has still not figured out the purposelessness of continuing to beat dead horses. E.J., stick a fork in this one; it’s done.

  • TungSten_001

    Now that the Pope has done the right thing, I sincerely hope that he will be more inclusive.What about condemning the Black Holocaust (the kidnapping and slavery of Africans), the mass murdering of Germany’s Gypsies, and the extermination of the Native Caribbean Indians?Were these people lesser than the European Jews?

  • ianshine

    I agree with every word and thank you. The generosity and compassion did not come out of the blue.

  • asizk

    Is it a crime to deny that the jews have comitted for the past sixty years and continue to comitt a slow and of lately an accelerated Holocaust of the Palestinian People?In the liberal West One can deny the existance of God, defame Jesus and Muhammad and would all be considered Freedom of Speech-but no this does not apply to the “chosen people;” but Stalin slaughtered some twenty million Russians and half of the Chechans perished in the forced marchs of Stalin to Siberia in Russin winters.The west is a big hypocrite. This publicity splash about the British Bishop Wilamson denying the so called holocaust is only a smoke screen of “White Phosphrous Bombs” to Divert World Attention from “israel’s” War Crimes and Crimes against Humanities in Gaza.Besides the pope is a hypocrite and a creep:where was the vatican when catholic hiltler and his nazis administred the holocaust in the pope’s backyard-as the serb barbarians committed the Genocide of Bosnian Muslims.Let us now focus on the recent on-going israeli War Crimes and Crimes against Humnaities in Gaza.

  • grouse1

    This issue is something to deal with and it has been dealt with. Move on. Unfortunately, many in the Jewish faith treat their collective victimhood in the Shoah with greater reverence and greater respect than their own professed religion. They study the tenets and history of it, they focus on it in their daily life (almost like a prayer) and they take utter umbrage at any stray comment or position from whomever about its legitimacy or relevance or grandiosity as if it was a tenet of faith rather than a historical event. Christians like Dionne do not help by feeding this collective neediness. The horrible nature of the Holocaust and the emptiness it creates in some should be filled with the wonderful faith gifts that the Jewish faith has to offer. Practice the faith, not victimhood.Most Jews that I know do not even practice their faith with the vigor that they practice victimhood. They are high holy day types (much akin to Christmas/Easter christian) who use temple as a networking experience. So for those that do practice it vigorously and fervently and faithfully, I must apologize. But I would venture to guess that they are not the most vocal critics nor as offended by this action. The bishops brought in from excommunication are not Catholic bishops with any stature or position. They are humans who have been given the chance to come back into communion with the Catholic Church. If they want to be jerks or kooks they can do that. It is nothing more. This is a cause without a true and real underlying faith issue. Those sincerely practicing in both faiths will know that. To the extent Pope Benedict and the Vatican need to explain the Canon law process so that it is not misperceived fine. But the rest of the nonsense along with Dionne calling this as some basic tenet of the Christian faith, is just silly. Move on to real issues.

  • morryb

    I wonder if all those of faith that are posting on here have ever given some thought as to why they have “faith”?Faith is pure and simply endoctrination. It is performed on children because they are the most impressionable. In this way superstituous and primitive myths are perpetuated from one generation to another. This is “truth” by authority not by reason.Think about it Dionne and see whether your “faith” is rational or just the product of brain washing when you were young.

  • shepherdmarilyn

    So how does denying the Armenian holocaust fit in, or the jews refusal to admit the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.110 people were slaughtered in wars last century, why do we have to only focus on one tiny part of that carnage just because they are the loudest?

  • yard80197

    The mainstream church has become so infiltrated with private interest groups (like the US government) that the Lefevrists broke away, it would seem for theological reasons as well as political. What has this flap got to do with Christ’s teachings? Has this guy violated “love your neighbor?” or is he simply exercising his freedom of speech? Is it against Cannon Law to vilify Muhammed? Let’s use the same yard stick for ALL humans, irrespective of their beliefs, because in the eyes of God, the Jews are NOT the only chosen people, at least that is what Christ stated: “Go therefore and preach the Word to ALL people…..” I find the Catholic Church has forgotten (or seemingly ignores) Christ’s most basic teaching.

  • goku234

    Demanding nobody question a particular account of history sure is liberal and tolerant, isn’t it?

  • goku234

    Ah yes, it’s intolerable to have an opinion on a historic event different from that accepted by most people. Sounds very liberal and tolerant. Oops. . .

  • yard80197

    Ah, so reminiscent of 1537 “recant your statement that the earth is not flat, or we will break your knees as we are doing to this sinner before you..” What article of faith did geophysics violate? What article of faith does statistics violate now? Of course we know that Germany lost 14 million people during WWII (7 million civilians and 7 million military). Of course we know that the Nazis murdered millions of their own citizens, many of them Jews. Of course we know that many of the millions who died, died at the hands of the Allies and their vicious bombing (like that of Dresden, which was one of the war crimes for which the Allies were never held accountable). Let’s move on now with that memory. There is plenty of blood on the hands of even the holier-than-thou who are howling now. In order that people don’t forget that they need to reign in their governments, let’s never forget that any assault on freedom of speech, the freedom to criticise one’s government, is an assault on the ability of people to control their governments. After all, I don’t want to live under governments like that of Israel or Iran.

  • DoTheRightThing

    Dionne agrees with Father Reese, who wrote, “…while the Vatican is enthusiastic in wooing the right, it has no patience with the left.” This statement is untrue, and an obvious counter-example is the Church’s continuing soft-sell approach to public Catholic figures (politicians, etc.) who vocally support positions blatently contrary to Catholic doctrine and dogma.

  • mzf123

    Holocaust deniers are having fun playing a game: by denying, with a wink of the eye, they get a charge out of further upsetting and ridiculing those that they hate and detest. They know that the holocaust existed and, often, in the next breath, threaten to revive it with even more vigor. Deniers are only troubled that it wasn’t more effective. What they are denying is not the holocaust, rather any guilt, need for guilt, or embarrassment, in its implementation. The denier, as indicated in many of the other comments, just doesn’t think that the holocaust was bad, evil, or requires any apology or even acknowledgment.

  • masonjahr

    Interesting that a controversy about Jews and history is used as a convenient stick for Catholic bashing. I know how you feel my Jewish brothers and sisters. Whackos always put both of us in the pillory when given an opportunity. This time they got a “two fer”.

  • thebobbob

    There is no comparison between denying the existence of god(atheism)because there is no way to ‘prove’ it (rationalism) and denying that millions were systematically murdered solely because of their racial background and ancestry. One flies in the face of reality and the other demands the acceptance of reality.Until Catholicism completely recognizes the inherent antisemitism of it’s historical teachings, this will never go away.

  • slim2

    “God’s love” and the questioning of the depth and extent of historical events are not mutually exclusive. Truth never needs the protection of law or protection by censor, it’s fully capable of standing on its own to questioning and doubt. Questions and doubt are particularly good in matters where there exist a near unanimity of opinion. The Catholic Church condemnation of Galileo and Copernicus for their outspoken “heretical” beliefs that the earth was not the center of the universe is a case in point.

  • mhr614

    That the Catholic Church would want to discipline a bishop for not accepting the truth of the holocaust bothers me not a bit. The broader question is, however- what other denials will be deemed by leftists like Dionne to be beyond the pale? Will a disbelief in global warming some day disqualify a person from holding public ofiice? Will a man who does not believe in evolution be denied employment for that reason? Is someone who believes that communism murdered 100 million human beings a rational being? If a person denies that all cultures are equal, is he a racist? My fear is that leftists are in the process of developing a “historical and scientific” text that they will employ to impose cultural hegemony on a people who were once free. Free even to be mistaken.

  • delusional1

    Anti-Semitism had nothing to do with the original excommunication and it has nothing to do with rescinding the excommunication. Be informed before you write a stupid column.

  • CCNL

    The Jewish Holocaust is one of many atrocities committed by humankind against humankind. The Top 21 as per The Twenty (or so) Worst Things People Have Done to Each Other:Rank Death Toll Cause Centuries

  • AThinker1

    I think there are alot of things being misunderstood, I believe that Pope Benedict’s gesture was one of forgiveness, as God hopes for us to learn. The Pope’s duties are to deliver God’s message and do so by example as much as by word. Despite Bishop Richardson personally held views about the Holocaust, the Pope must try and show compassion, to the just and in this case, the un-just. The pious aren’t often the ones that need to be saved, it’s the sinners that Christ’s message is for. Let’s say for example, a Judge dismisses the case of a murder because of a lack of evidence or some poor loophole in the law despite his own personal belief that the Murderer is guilty. Does that mean then that the Judge ultimately condones murder? of course not, he’s following the directives of Modern Law. So too is the Pope bound to enact the laws of Heaven, regardless what others perceive as his ‘true’ motive. We aught to pay attention to the purest reason that Pope Benedict has rescinded the excommunication, that reason is forgiveness.

  • plaza04433

    “”"Does this reconciliation with the Saint Pius X Society in any way mean that Benedict is backing off the achievements of Vatican II? Is he backing away from some of its core teachings? His defenders insist not, and as a Catholic, I would like to hope not.”"”Huh? Have you been living in a cave?? Remember ‘indulgences’? They are bringing those arcane and theologically unsupportable anachronism’s back too.. big time. Benedict’s agenda is the total dismantlement of Vatican II.As the world moves forward into the 21st century, Benedict wants to drag the church back into the old medieval elitism of the clergy and all of the irrationality that supported all of that.

  • plaza04433

    “”We aught to pay attention to the purest reason that Pope Benedict has rescinded the excommunication, that reason is forgiveness.”"Wrong. His reason is political, pure and simple. The Catholic Church, as it has evolved, is a cult, not a church. That is something Martin Luther realized centuries ago.

  • patricksarsfield

    Folks,”Remember ‘indulgences’? They are bringing those arcane and theologically unsupportable anachronism’s back too.. big time. “Huh?? Indulgences were never eliminated at all.From his Martin Luther comment, I assume Plaza must be a dupe of Luther’s false “faith alone” dogma. Here’s the real skinny on that tempest in a teapot: Law student Martin made a silly vow to become a monk as he crossed an open field in a thunderstorm because he was afraid of lightning. Then when he couldn’t keep his vows, he needed a way out of them. So, he attacked the efficacy of “works” (such things as vows and other good works) by inventing the eisegesis about “sola fide” out of whole cloth despite the very clear statement in James 2:24 that: “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. “Because the James epistle so clearly refuted Luther’s faith alone position, he had the chutzpah to try to cut that epistle out of the Bible as a so-called “epistle of straw.” If anyone is in a cult, it is someone who follows Luther, not the majority of christians who follow the Church Jesus founded in the First Century AD, the Catholic Church from which Martin broke away in the 16th Century.

  • infantry11b4faus

    you are spending all this energy one one man and a pop that wants peace, when there are over ONE BILLION ISLAMIC WHO DENY IT DAILY!

  • October10S

    When Benedict was elected Pope, I hoped against hope that he would rise above his reputation and at least do no harm to the church. Unfortunately, he has been even worse than expected. In his short tenure he has offended and alienated Muslims and Jews the world over, not to mention millions and millions of centrist Catholics. He clearly bends to the extreme right of the Catholic church. It would not surprise me if he is Opus Dei himself. But whatever he is, he is an unqualified DISASTER for the church, and one very large nail in the coffin of a dying faith. I can only hope that his tenure will be short, and reasonable minds will take over.

  • October10S

    There is nothing wrong with freedom of speech. But speech reflects thought, and your thoughts reflect your character. Holocaust deniers have fundamentally flawed character. To equate denying gravity (something that no one could prove unequivocally at the time) with denying the deaths of millions of jews (which is uncontravertable fact supported by too much evidence to catalogue in one place) doesn’t call into question the fact, it calls in question the questioner. It’s not what he’s saying, it’s why he is saying it. The Bible says though shalt not lie. This Bishop spread vile, insidious lies. That’s un-Christian, let alone un-Catholic. But Benedict, being the ham fisted albatross that he is, could care less what the effects of his edicts are. He just doesn’t care who he offends. He has failed to recognize that the days of just accepting what the Church teaches on blind faith are long past. Only the brain-dead do that now. The rest of us scrutinize and question the church, and more and more of us are finding it seriously wanting.

  • Geseke

    October10S wrote:”denying the deaths of millions of jews (which is uncontravertable fact supported by too much evidence to catalogue in one place)”Maybe that is the problem. There is too much evidence and it is not all in one place. Bishop Williamson has promised to recant as soon as he reviews the evidence. Could you please tell us where the evidence of the 6 million Jewish deaths is kept? And also, where is the forensic report that proves the existence of the gas chambers.The latest news is that the Bishop is going to be prosecuted in Argentina where he could be facing three years in prison, and he is already under investigation in Germany where he could be imprisoned for five years. He might be looking at 8 years in prison if he doesn’t find the evidence soon.

  • Geseke

    Xavisev wrote:”Who defines what so-called Holocaust denial is???Is doubting the tossed about figure of 6 million JEWSIs INCLUDING the number of non-Jewish victims considered denial as well? Is the Holocaust a registeredIs wondering about the reliability of some of the testimony of certain eyewitnesses denial too?Is asking about denial a form of denial?”===============Deborah Lipstadt, a history professor at Emory University, made up the term “Holocaust denial” and then wrote a book about it. She named all the important deniers and said that David Irving was the most dangerous of all because he “falsified history.” The way that he falsified history was to translate German works exactly according to their meaning in a German dictionary from the 1930s. However, the Nazis always used code works and euphemisms in their documents and speeches. Irving sued Deborah Lipstadt for libel and the judge ruled that she was correct that Irving had falsified history because of his literal translations of German words. The Holocaust is defined as Nazi Germany’s systematic plan to exterminate all the Jews in the world, on the orders of Adolf Hitler, which resulted in the deaths of 6 million Jews, mostly in gas chambers.Denying any of these points (systematic, plan, exterminate, Hitler’s orders, 6 million or the gas chambers) is Holocaust denial. The word exterminate is used because it is the English translation of the German word “ausrotten.” David Irving translated “ausrotten” according to a 1935 German dictionary which difined it as “to get rid of, or to root out.” That made him a dangerous denier, according to Deborah Lipstadt.The Holocaust with a capital H is a registered trademark. The 5 million non Jews who were killed by the Nazis are not included in the Holocaust. The number of 5 million non-Jews is an estimate by Simon Wiesenthal, the famous Nazis hunter who was a survivor of several camps. He said that he made up this number because people wouldn’t believe that 6 million Jews were killed unless they were told that 5 million non Jews were killed.Wondering about the reliability of the eye-witnesses or the hearsay testimony of witnesses is definitely denial. The proof of the Holocaust is in the testimony. There is no hard evidence and no forensic evidence. Asking about denial is not denial.

  • stadtbear

    >The list of Ratzinger’s efforts to swing the Church back to medieval times is long. In fact, just last week we saw the re-emergence the of “indulgences” which caused Luther to defect.Actually, Luther did not oppose indulgences per se; he railed against the SALE of indulgences. As a consequence, the idea of indulgences fell into disrepute, and it was JohnPaul II who began to revive the practice of GIVING indulgences.But the whole idea of indulgences at all is just another bizarre figment of Roman Catholicism, the most superstitious and un-Christian of all Christian denominations. This pope, who was touted as an extremely well-educated and intellectual man, has not shown that he deserves that reputation. He has shown that he has no rapport with people, that he is an old-school German who stubbornly and pedantically demands blind obedience to medieval values. He is, thankfully, making the RCC daily less relevant. I say more power to him. Let him raize the whole bloody thing to the ground. It has almost nothing to do with the teachings of Christ anyway. It has earned oblivion.

  • Farnaz2

    One last bit of info. worthy of mention. Williamson, he who also avers that 9/11 was an inside job, was a guest of Irving.

  • patricksarsfield

    Arminius points out that there are 13 countries in which Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal:”Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Switzerland.”Interestingly, Catholics constitute a majority of the population in 8 of the 13 countries (Austria, Belgium, France, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland and Portugal) and a plurality in two more (the Czech Republic and Switzerland). Yet even after pointing that out, some of the more convinced conspiracy nuts will probably still think that Pope Benedict is trying to get the laws changed to make the World safe for SSPXers

  • nrglaw

    EJ–On Faith has now posted a question and your article on Williamson. Both produced a torrent of anti-Judaic sentimeent. That is the real story here. What Williamson says is, as Cohen suggests, neither here nor there. But the huge reservoir of anti-Semitism in this enlightened country is a disturbing fact that the On Faith postings serves to highlight.Thank you for your post.

  • Farnaz2

    PatrickSarsfield writes:”Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Switzerland.”Interestingly, Catholics constitute a majority of the population in 8 of the 13 countries (Austria, Belgium, France, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland and Portugal) and a plurality in two more (the Czech Republic and Switzerland). Yet even after pointing that out, some of the more convinced conspiracy nuts will probably still think that Pope Benedict is trying to get the laws changed to make the World safe for SSPXersHolocaust denial is a form of antisemitism. That is the issue. However, laws against it occasionally serve as a defensive ploy against evidenced-based allegations of racism.

  • Farnaz2

    NRGLAW:”But the huge reservoir of anti-Semitism in this enlightened country is a disturbing fact that the On Faith postings serves to highlight.”

  • stadtbear

    Geseke writes:” There is no hard evidence and no forensic evidence.”Actually, there is a substantial amount of “hard” and “forensic” evidence to be found in the pits full of human ash behind each of the crematory sites at Auschwitz.

  • plaza04433

    patricksarsfield wrote:First,let me disabuse you of the notion I follow Luther, or any other part of the noxious brew flowing from the Judaic/Christian/Moslem trinity of Abrahamic superstitions. Second, I doubt the Eastern Church would agree with your statement about THE first century Church.As for indulgences, I never said they were eliminated. They were ignored and forgotten since Vat.II -at least until now.”"Book IV, Title IV, Chapter IVJames 4:12′Well, in light of the church’s ability to titrate the eternal fate of its followers via ‘indulgence’, so much for the “only one judge” theme! The Roman Church is a cult. I agree with you and will not dispute and that there are other Christian cults.

  • Geseke

    To STADTBEAR and FARNAZ2:There are “ash pits” at Birkenau, but is there enough ashes for 1.5 million bodies? There was testimony that some of the ashes were thrown into the Sola river and some were put into urns and then hauled away in trucks, but there is no proof of this. There is a huge pile of ashes at Majdanek, but now the Museum there says that the number of deaths from all causes was 78,000 including 59,000 Jews. The ashes from 1.5 million people would be enormous if the Majdanek ashes are from 78,000 people. There is no forensic report that proves that these are human ashes and not the ashes from the stoves in the camp.Forensic evidence would be something like an autopsy report that showed that the person had died of Zyklon-B poisoning. There were autopsies conducted at Dachau by a U.S. Army doctor, but none showed that the person had been gassed. The most important forensic evidence that is missing is a report that shows that enough residue of Zyklon-B was found on the walls of the gas chambers to prove that people were gassed there. Hard evidence would be something tangible that one can touch, such as a document signed by Hitler in which he ordered the genocide of the Jews. Or records which show that 6 million Jews died. If this evidence were available, there would be no Holocaust deniers.

  • plaza04433

    Geseke wrote:Perhaps you and Bishop Williamson and should start here:and here:and here:

  • Farnaz2

    Hard evidence would be something tangible that one can touch, such as a document signed by Hitler in which he ordered the genocide of the Jews. Or records which show that 6 million Jews died. If this evidence were available, there would be no Holocaust deniers.Frankly, I’m getting tired of posting bibliographies. It’s tiresome and silly.The numbers of persons who stated that slavery in America was a benign institution, that there were no floggings, no rapes, no incest,no starvation, no “breeding,” no murders, etc. was huge.The discussion has revealed what was easily anticipated, not merely holocaust denial, but overt antisemitism, unsurprising since the former is part and parcel of the latter.Of course, racism says nothing about the target, and everything about the racist. Racists are both dangerous and pitiable. Thankfully, some have been known to find their way back to the community of decent people, and we can only wish that all may finally do so. What they are doing now is adding insult to one of the worst injuries of history.

  • stadtbear

    Geseke wrote:>There were autopsies conducted at Dachau by a U.S. Army doctor, but none showed that the person had been gassed.Well of course not! The gas chamber at Dachau, which was installed as a hail-Mary effort by the Nazis at the near end of the war, was never used. Nobody was ever gassed at Dachau, thanks to the end of the war.

  • CCNL

    Hmmm, Yael aka Farnaz aka Observer12 aka Observer31 noted: “Farnaz has quit this blog, and with my last post, you are now officially Judenfrei. Congratulations. ” This statement was made 02/09/09.So who is the Farnaz who made the commentaries below???

  • daniel12

    Two things.1) What exactly is it that Christianity drums into our heads over all else it might say? I think that we can agree that the major statement of Christianity is that Christ is the son of God and that he came here to die for our sins. With that established in our minds, what difference is it how Christ died? In fact, being the son of God would he not have planned his death? Furthermore, what more fitting way to die than dying on the cross, providing millions down through the centuries with a fitting symbol to wear around their necks (I mean the crucifix). Finally, how exactly is it then that the Jews are considered evil for having killed Christ, supposing they did so in the first place? All clear now? Thank you.2) I have no idea what to make of those people who not only deny the holocaust occurred, but say that the Jews falsified such, created all the documents, etc. You mean the same Jews that had been persecuted since the 1930′s in Germany and were thinking of a way out before anything else? These Jews skulked around Germany all through the terrible war falsifying a holocaust? Wake up and see the light. Return to point number one made above read over and read number two again then return to point number one above.

  • cacxo

    I suspect it might actually be jealousy, on Williamson’s part. If he is the kind of person who uses suffering as means for personal gain (through sympathy), then he’s jealous of dead jews, and he won’t let go that easily.

  • Farnaz2

    cacxo Author Profile Page:I suspect it might actually be jealousy, on Williamson’s part. If he is the kind of person who uses suffering as means for personal gain (through sympathy), then he’s jealous of dead jews, and he won’t let go that easily.Notice too, that he doesn’t deny American slavery, the Christian martyrs, etc.Awaiting your reply….

  • patricksarsfield

    Folks,”As for indulgences, I never said they were eliminated. They were ignored and forgotten since Vat.II -at least until now.”Still WRONG. I was a Catholic before during and after Vatican II and throughout the succeeding forty four years. At no point during that time were “indulgences” ignored and forgotten by me or by many other Catholics whom I know. I can’t speak for all Catholics, of course, but neither can Plaza, unless…. Maybe Plaza has done some mindscan survey of Catholics (perhaps with a ring decoder?) that can establish that some of us may have ignored indulgences? I await his/her data, if that is the case.

  • patricksarsfield

    My exchange with Farnaz,”Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Switzerland.”Interestingly, Catholics constitute a majority of the population in 8 of the 13 countries (Austria, Belgium, France, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland and Portugal) and a plurality in two more (the Czech Republic and Switzerland). Yet even after pointing that out, some of the more convinced conspiracy nuts will probably still think that Pope Benedict is trying to get the laws changed to make the World safe for SSPXersYou are long on innuendo and short on facts. If you want to make charges, please do so. Don’t just label whole countries complicit as though the story of what was done to the Christians within their borders by the Nazis is not also a horror show that we need never forget either. Poland and Lithuania for example also offered up millions of christians who got killed in the Death Camps and by the mobile death trucks, and the Poles gave hundreds of thousands of others who fought bravely for the Allies throughout WWII and were left exiles when the US and Britain cruelly sol their interests out to Uncle oe Stalin at the End of WWII.

  • Farnaz2

    PatrickSarsfield:I’m not “making innuendos.” I’m stating facts and have also supported them by posting lengthy bibliographies throughout this blog. Your sweeping generalizations are simply incorrect. For example, it is true that millions of Polish Catholics were killed by the nazis. It is also true that POlish Catholics actively collaborated with the Nazis, informing them who was and wasn’t Jewish, torturing and killing Jews themselves.Cases of Polish Catholics killing Polish Jews in the most horrid ways imaginable just in advance of the Nazi onslaught are legion.As for other countries, events such as Babiyar in Ukraine, the documentation is enormous. I’m neither “making innuendo” nor “making accusations.” I’m stating facts.Does this mean that no Catholics or Christians suffered persecution? Of course not. HOwever that is not the topic. Quite frankly, I fail to see your point. Again, I’ve posted the names of tons of books, articles, web sites, etc. If you would like me to do so again, say the word, and I will do so in a couple of days, when I have time. I don’t understand what your argument is.

  • Farnaz2

    PatrickSarsfield:Poland and Lithuania for example also offered up millions of christians who got killed in the Death Camps and by the mobile death trucks, and the Poles gave hundreds of thousands of others who fought bravely for the Allies throughout WWII and were left exiles when the US and Britain cruelly sol their interests out to Uncle oe Stalin at the End of WWII.

  • Geseke

    STADTBEAR wrote, regarding the autopsies done by Dr. Larson at Dachau. “Well of course not! The gas chamber at Dachau, which was installed as a hail-Mary effort by the Nazis at the near end of the war, was never used. Nobody was ever gassed at Dachau, thanks to the end of the war.”==================The gas chamber at Dachau was in existence for two years before the end of the war. The Nazis could have blown up the building or modified the gas chamber to change it into something else, but they didn’t; they left the gas chamber intact as evidence. The only evidence submitted at Nuremberg as “proof” of the gas chambers was an hour-long film made by the US military which included some footage of the gas chamber at Dachau. Dr. Franz Blaha, a prisoner at Dachau, signed an affidavit on the same day that the gas chamber was filmed and it was entered at Nuremberg. Dr. Blaha testified that he had done numerous autopsies at Dachau which showed that people had been gassed, but the autopsies themselves were not submitted as evidence. For years, the staff at the Dachau memorial site said that the gas chamber was never used, but now they are saying that it was used a few times. The film that includes the gas chamber footage is shown every half hour at Dachau, but visitors are not allowed to see the gas pipes and control wheels that are shown in the film. So it turns out that the best evidence of a hoax is the American-made film footage about the Dachau gas chamber and Dr. Blaha’s affidavit entered at Nuremberg. The next best evidence of a hoax is the gas chamber in the main camp at Auschwitz. From 1947 to around 2000, the tour guides lied to visitors and told them that the gas chamber was original. Only in the last few years have visitors been told that it is a reconstruction. More evidence of a hoax is the charge made by the Soviet Union that 1.5 million people were murdered at Majdanek. Now the Memorial site at Majdanek says that there were only 59,000 Jews who died of all causes at Majdanek. Raul Hilberg wrote, long before the memorial site changed the numbers, that 50,000 Jews had died at Majdanek. If Hilberg knew the approximate number, why did the Soviet Union overestimate the numbers so badly? The Soviet Union charged the Nazis with killing 4 million people at Auschwitz, based on no evidence at all. Now the number is down to 1.1 million. If the rules of law had been used at Nuremberg, all the evidence would have to be thrown out because the rule of law is “False in one, false in all.”

  • Geseke

    To Farnaz2 and PatrickSarsfield:The Nazis killed Poles, but not because they were Poles or Slavic or Catholics. Poland never surrendered in World War II. The Polish Army escaped to Romania and the Polish government escaped to England where they set up a government in exile. The Poles continued to fight on the side of the Allies throughout World War II, but not on the battlefield, until the Soviet soldiers reached Poland. Then they joined the Soviets in fighting on the battlefield. According to the rules of the 1929 Geneva Convention, some Poles were fighting as illegal combatants and the Nazis were allowed to execute them if they were captured. The Poles who were put into concentration camps were put there because they had been fighting as partisans, including the Polish priests. Since then, the rules of the Geneva Convention have changed and the Polish Home Army, which fought as Partisans, might be considered legal combatants. There were a few Poles who went from village to village and killed the Jews. The most famous of these pogroms was at Jedwabne. There was also a Polish unit in the Waffen-SS – hard to believe, but true. The first prisoners sent to the Auschwitz main camp were Polish partisans. The first prisoners sent to Birkenau were Soviet POWs. There were also Jewish partisans hiding in the forests and fighting the Nazis by blowing up trains and ambushing German soldiers.

  • tjfpalmer

    Points to Ponder:

  • Farnaz2

    Geseke:There were a few Poles who went from village to village and killed the Jews. The most famous of these pogroms was at Jedwabne. There was also a Polish unit in the Waffen-SS – hard to believe, but true.Don’t forget, however, that there was a Polish Catholic Underground. There, too, however, things were far from okay with respect to Polish Jews.There is no joy in recounting any of this. No gotcha. It is a horrible episode–the Shoah. Says very little about the possibility of human progress.

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,”PatrickSarsfield: Poland and Lithuania for example also offered up millions of christians who got killed in the Death Camps and by the mobile death trucks, and the Poles gave hundreds of thousands of others who fought bravely for the Allies throughout WWII and were left exiles when the US and Britain cruelly sol their interests out to Uncle oe Stalin at the End of WWII.There were mobile death trucks unleashed by the Nazis on the Catholic peasantry of Lithuania, among other targets. For example, my grand mother worked with a Lithuanian Catholic woman many members of whose family perished in sweeps done by the Nazis’ mobile death trucks who sought to eliminate as many Slavic “untermenschen” as they could.Then there were the Poles who had been taken prisoner by the Soviets when they shared with Hitler in the 1939 partitioning of Poland? To the degree they survived the Stalinist Pogrom in the Katyn Forest and the rigors of the Siberian concentrattion camps until the 1941 falling out between Hitler and Stalin, many of them ended up fighting again for the Allied Cause!Don’t you know about the participation of the Polish Navy in such battles as the Evacuation from Dunkirk? Or of the participation of the Polish Home Army (the famous AK) who rose magnificently on Aug. 1, 1944 but who the Stalinists let be slaughtered by the Nazis. Essentially, the Soviet Communists stood on the Eastern Side of the Vistula for weeks to allow the Nazis to kill the Polish Freedom fighters with impunity.A lot of suffering and death went on in WWII. Over 50 million were killed, including 3 Million Polish Jews and 3 Million Polish Christians.

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,”Your sweeping generalizations are simply incorrect. For example, it is true that millions of Polish Catholics were killed by the nazis. It is also true that POlish Catholics actively collaborated with the Nazis, informing them who was and wasn’t Jewish, torturing and killing Jews themselves.”And European Jews also actively collaborated with the Nazis (the Kapos and Jewish Police), so what is your point??

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,The Ukraine is not one of the countries we were discussing.

  • patricksarsfield

    Geseke,”The Nazis killed Poles, but not because they were Poles or Slavic or Catholics. Poland never surrendered in World War II. The Polish Army escaped to Romania and the Polish government escaped to England where they set up a government in exile. The Poles continued to fight on the side of the Allies throughout World War II, but not on the battlefield, until the Soviet soldiers reached Poland. Then they joined the Soviets in fighting on the battlefield. “Your facts are inaccurate in several respects. As to thre reason the Nazis killed the Poles (and other Slavs) in far heavier numbers than they killed Western Europeans, it was because they considered them (and other Slavs)untermenschen, not because they did not like their breaths. As to the Poles “not fighting on the battlefield until the Russians reached Poland,” that is just WRONG. The Poles who fought with Russia started out fighting in Russia. And the Poles who fought in the West in 1940 and in North Africa, Italy, France, Holland and Germany throughout the rest of the War started off their renewed resistance to Nazidom as soon as the Sitzkrieg turned into Blitzkrieg in April 1940 with the Invasion of Norway. Also: many of the Allied fighters in the Battle of Britain were staffed by members of the Polish Air Force.The significant contributions of the Free Polish Armed Forces have largely been forgotten in the West for a very good reason: Roosevelt and Churchill decided to sell out the Free Poles at Yalta, and so it has been as though they never existed. There is a very good book by the US Ambassador to Poland from 1944-1947 (Lane) on the way we let the Free Poles be marginalized by Joe Stalin and his accomplices. Poland should have had an honored place in the Victory Celebrations of 1945, but was instead sold down the Vistula.

  • Geseke

    I meant to say the Polish Home Army, but I wrote Polish Army by mistake. Here is a quote from Wikipedia about the Home Army:The Armia Krajowa (the Home Army, literally translated as the Country’s Army), abbreviated “AK”, was the dominant Polish resistance movement in World War II German-occupied Poland. It was formed in February 1942 from the Związek Walki Zbrojnej (Union for Armed Struggle) and over the next two years absorbed most other Polish underground forces. It was loyal to the Polish government in exile and constituted the armed wing of what became known as the “Polish Underground State”. Estimates of its membership in 1944 range from 200,000 to 600,000, with the most common number being 400,000; that figure would make it not only the largest Polish underground resistance movement but one the two largest in Europe during World War II.[a] It was disbanded on January 20, 1945, when Polish territory had largely been cleared of German forces by the advancing Soviet Red Army.The AK’s primary resistance operations were the sabotage of German activities, including transports headed for the Eastern Front in the Soviet Union. The AK also fought several full-scale battles against the Germans, particularly in 1943 and 1944 during Operation Tempest, thereby tying down significant German forces, diverting much-needed supplies, while trying to support Soviet military. The most widely known AK operation was the failed Warsaw Uprising. The AK also defended Polish civilians against atrocities committed by non-German military organizations such as the Ukrainian Insurgent Army and the Lithuanian Security Police. The Armia Krajowa, due to its ties with the Polish government in exile, was viewed by the Soviet Union as a major obstacle to its takeover of the country, which lead to increasing conflict between AK and Soviet forces both during and after the war. Armia Krajowa, seen in modern Poland as a heroic resistance, has occasionally been the subject of controversy, portrayed more critically in the Soviet Union The Majdanek camp was filled with captured partisans from the Home Army. The largest group of prisoners at Dachau when it was liberated were Polish Catholics who were captured partisans. They were also Polish partisans imprisoned at Buchenwald. The Nazis killed the Poles because they were the enemy in war time, not because they were Untermenschen.

  • Geseke

    patricksarsfield wrote:”Fifteen thousand or so Polish officers were then massacred by Joe Stalin’s NKVD in the Katyn Forest.”===========At the Nuremberg IMT, the Soviet Union charged the Germans with killing the Polish officers at Katyn Forest. The Germans produced evidence which proved that they had not killed the Polish officers and an American POW, whom they had taken with them to see the evidence at Katyn Forest, testified as a defense witness for the Nazis on trial. The Soviet Union later admitted that they had lied at the Nuremberg IMT about the Katyn Forest. In any other trial, that would have been enough to declare a mistrial and throw out everything that was “proved” at Nuremberg.

  • stadtbear

    CCNL Author Profile Page:>Hmmm, Yael aka Farnaz aka Observer12 aka Observer31 noted: “Farnaz has quit this blog, and with my last post, you are now officially Judenfrei. Congratulations. ” This statement was made 02/09/09.So who is the Farnaz who made the commentaries below???The eternal, schizo-affective Jew. Clearly a case of identity theft.

  • patricksarsfield

    Geseke writes:I doubt you ever prosecuted a case if you think a case will be thrown out because someone (who wasn’t even a witness) later recants with respect to a rather collateral matter. Katyn, although a heinous offense in its own right and one that needs more notoriety in the US, was not a central issue in the Nuremberg Trials. So even if the Russians did lie about that, the convictions of such monsters as Hermann Goering would not have been overturned. I hope you are not an apologist for the Nazi War Criminals, btw.

  • Farnaz2

    LITHUANIA CONTINUEDThe involvement of the local population and institutions, in relatively high numbers, in the destruction of Lithuanian Jewry became a defining factor of the Holocaust in Lithuania.[7][2][15] Not all of the Lithuanian populace supported the killings.[20] Out of a population of close to 3,000,000, (80% of it ethnic Lithuanians),[21] only a few tens of thousands took an active part in the killings while many hundreds risked their lives sheltering the Jews.[9] Israel has recognized 723 Lithuanians as “Righteous Among the Nations” for risking their lives to save Jews during the Holocaust).[22][9][23][2] In addition, many members of the Polish minority in Lithuania also helped to shelter the Jews.[20] Lithuanians and Poles who risked their lives saving Jews were persecuted and often executed by the Nazis.[24][edit] Comprehension and remembrance

  • Farnaz2

    LITHUANIAParticipation of local populaceWhile the Nazi German administration directed and supported the organized killing of Lithuanian Jews, most of the logistics for the preparation and execution of the murders was carried out by local Lithuanian auxiliaries of the Nazi occupation regime.[2][7][15] Nazi SS Brigadeführer Franz Walter Stahlecker arrived in Kaunas on 25 June 1941 and gave agitation speeches in the city to instigate the murder of Jews. Initially this was in the former State Security Department building, but officials there refused to take any action. Later, he gave speeches in the city.[16] In a report of October 15, Stahlecker wrote that they had succeeded in covering up their vanguard unit (Vorkommando) actions, and it was made to look like it was the initiative of the local population.[17] Groups of partisans, civil units of nationalist-rightist anti-Soviet affiliation, initiated contact with the Germans as soon as they entered the Lithuanian territories.[7] A rogue unit of insurgents headed by Algirdas Klimaitis and encouraged by Germans from the Sicherheitspolizei and Sicherheitsdienst, started anti-Jewish pogroms in Kaunas (Kovno) on the night of 25 June-26 June 1941 in which over a thousand Jews perished over the next few days in what was the first pogrom in Nazi-occupied Lithuania.[5][18][17] Different sources give different figures, one being 1,500[5] and another 3,800, with additional victims in other towns of the region.[18]On 24 June 1941, the Lithuanian Security Police (Lietuvos saugumo policija), subordinate to Nazi Germany’s Security Police and Nazi Germany’s Criminal Police, was created. It would be involved in various actions against the Jews and other enemies of the Nazi regime.[19] Nazi commanders filed reports purporting the “zeal” of the Lithuanian police battalions surpassed their own.[14] The most notorious Lithuanian unit participating in the Holocaust was the Lithuanian Sonderkommando Squad (Ypatingasis būrys) from the Vilnius (Vilna, Wilno) area which killed tens of thousands of Jews, Poles and others in Paneriai (the Ponary massacre) and other places.[19][11][12] Another Lithuanian organization involved in the Holocaust was the Lithuanian Labor Guard.[7] Many Lithuanian supporters of the Nazi policies came from the fascist Iron Wolf organization.[2] Overall, the nationalistic Lithuanian administration was interested in the liquidation of the Jews as a perceived enemy and potential rivals of ethnic Lithuanians and thus not only did not oppose Nazi Holocaust policy but in effect adopted it as their own.[13]

  • Farnaz2

    LITHUANIA CONTINUEDA combination of factors serves as an explanation for participation of some Lithuanians in genocide against Jews.[9] Those factors include national traditions and values, including anti-semitism, common throughout contemporary Central Europe, and a more Lithuanian-specific desire for a “pure” Lithuanian nation-state with which the Jewish population was believed to be incompatible.[2]) Additional factors were religion (Orthodox Catholic), severe economic problems (leading to killing of Jews over personal property) and opposed political orientations (support of the Soviet regime in Lithuania during 1940-1941 by Lithuanian Jews)[d].[9][2][15] During the period leading up to the German invasion, the Jews were blamed by some for virtually every misfortune that had befallen Lithuania.[2][15]

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,You also claim that even passing laws against Holocaust denial may really be a form of deception. Wheels within wheels?? I think you are getting twisted up in your own knickers there, Farnaz!One thing is for sure, quite apart from Jewish deaths in the concentration camps, the Polish Christians suffered millions of their own deaths at the hands of the Nazis (and their erstwhile allies the Russians) during WWII. The Poles would have plenty of reason “never to forget” Oswiecim (Auschwitz) even if the Jews weren’t their fellow citizens (and co-victims). The Poles don’t want to forget all of that suffering during WWII for that very reason.

  • Farnaz2

    PatrickSarsfield:Spare me the ad homs. They get you nowhere. You wanted evidence on the Lithuanian Catholics and you got it. Easier still are the Polish Catholics. Easiest of all, the Lithuanian and Polish Jews, so many of them being so dead, as it were.If you don’t comprehend a point I make why not simply ask me about it, as in, “What do you mean when you say that passing laws against Holocaust Denial…?”The question for you is what are you defending. There is no winning here, Patrick. The Shoah (= utter waste, devastation) was the culmination of two thousand years of racializing thinking, aided an abetted by modernity and technology.The only thing we can give ourselves is as much truth as we can find. Will it set us free? No. More is necessary.

  • Farnaz2

    PatrickSarsfield:RE: Emanuel Ringelblum I would suggest you read the chronicles yourself. I believe they are on the web. Words taken out of context don’t give a fair impression. Obviously.

  • Farnaz2

    PatrickSarsfeld:The Poles would have plenty of reason “never to forget” Oswiecim (Auschwitz) even if the Jews weren’t their fellow citizens (and co-victims). The Poles don’t want to forget all of that suffering during WWII for that very reason.Are you referring to Polish Catholics and Polish Jews? If so, please explain your terminology, its history, etc. Or I will.

  • Stephen17

    If the Jews are God’s chosen people, then He sure as devil doesn’t get me.

  • Farnaz2

    Stephen17 Author Profile Page:If the Jews are God’s chosen people, then He sure as devil doesn’t get me.

  • stadtbear

    Stephen17 Author Profile Page:>If the Jews are God’s chosen people, then He sure as devil doesn’t get me.Not to worry. We only have the Jews’ claim for that…

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,”The Poles would have plenty of reason “never to forget” Oswiecim (Auschwitz) even if the Jews weren’t their fellow citizens (and co-victims). The Poles don’t want to forget all of that suffering during WWII for that very reason.Are you referring to Polish Catholics and Polish Jews? “That is not a bad division because the post-war Poles are so overwhelmingly Catholic (90% per the CIA Factbook). When I wrote the Poles, though, I was including all the people of Poland, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Other and None, as well as the handful of jews that remain. My point remains valid under either interpretation: the Polish Nation, as a whole, would have plenty of cause to remember the Holocaust even if there were no Polish Jews because so many other Poles were slaughtered by the Nazis and their fellow-travelers, the Stalinists during the enormities of WWII.

  • Farnaz2

    Farnaz2 Author Profile Page:Stephen17 Author Profile Page:If the Jews are God’s chosen people, then He sure as devil doesn’t get me.February 13, 2009 9:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,”RE: Emanuel Ringelblum I would suggest you read the chronicles yourself. I believe they are on the web. Words taken out of context don’t give a fair impression. Obviously.”I took nothing out of context. I supplied the link and quoted the link in a full and fair way.You still need to answer how you can justify ignoring the grave suffering of the Lithuanian and Polish Christians under the Nazis by pointing to the relative handful of collaborators who cooperated with the Holocaust when you do not ignore the sufferings of the Jews even though there were collaborators among them too. I believe we must never forget any of the suffering that went on in WWII. Over 50 Million died. And when one looks at the Holocaust specifically, there were about 11 million dead victims of the Holocaust, the majority of whom were Jews but a very significant minority of whom were Christians. Of the 5 Million “Gentile” (in the sense of non-Jewish) victims of the Holocaust, I should think a very large percentage of them were Christian. If you disagree, please state your basis.

  • Farnaz2

    You still need to answer how you can justify ignoring the grave suffering of the Lithuanian and Polish Christians under the Nazis by pointing to the relative handful of collaborators who cooperated with the Holocaust when you do not ignore the sufferings of the Jews even though there were collaborators among them too.Of course, I sympathize with those Chrisitans who suffered. Don’t play this game of blaming the victims. It’s disgraceful. Poland and LIthuania practiced state-sponsored antisemtism, discrimination in every sphere of life up to and including World War II. YOu also haven’t answered my questions about the link. I’ve written about Ringelbaum, professionally. I think the best way for me to proceed its to give you a bibliography. I can’t paste articles; I’ve tried and they keep getting blocked. I’d be interested in your thoughts on the link I posted.

  • Farnaz2

    PatrickSarsfieldyou simply launch into more innuendo:As for capos, Jewish Police, I’ll answer any specific question you have about their differential roles, but you need to pose the question. Also, I’d appreciate your comments on the link.Either we can have a dialogue or we can’t. If we can’t have a dialogue on this topic, that’s okay. I’ll post the bib, anyway.

  • Farnaz2

    stadtbear Author Profile Page:Stephen17 Author Profile Page:>If the Jews are God’s chosen people, then He sure as devil doesn’t get me.Not to worry. We only have the Jews’ claim for that…February 13, 2009 10:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments YES To Worry. NO JEW HAS EVER CLAIMED THAT SO YOU DON’T HAVE OUR WORD ON THAT. YOU ONLY HAVE YOUR OWN WORD ON THAT….

  • Farnaz2

    STADTBEAR:Again, no Jews claim they’re the chosen people. The phrase is meaningless to us, although evidently not so to you. Hence the endless whining, complaining, ranting, accusing. Kindly wait for your next thorazine dosage before posting again, unless you find you can do so with civility, which I somehow doubt. Alternatively, seek pastoral help.

  • stadtbear

    Shrieking won’t do it. Neither will delusions. Jews, particularly Holocaust survivors never refer to themselves as “chosen.” Quite the contrary, they attribute their survival to blind luck. See, e.g., Simon Wiesenthal, Elie Wiesel, Olga Lengyl, Sara Pryztyk, Primo Levi, et al.>Again, no Jews claim they’re the chosen people. The phrase is meaningless to us, although evidently not so to you. Hence the endless whining, complaining, ranting, accusing.Kindly wait for your next thorazine dosage before posting again, unless you find you can do so with civility, which I somehow doubt. Alternatively, seek pastoral help.And once again your ignorance sounds banshee like in the night. You are a completely discredited fool. What are you, 14? Which of your split personalities are you now?

  • stadtbear

    Shrieking won’t do it. Neither will delusions. Jews, particularly Holocaust survivors never refer to themselves as “chosen.” Quite the contrary, they attribute their survival to blind luck. See, e.g., Simon Wiesenthal, Elie Wiesel, Olga Lengyl, Sara Pryztyk, Primo Levi, et al.>Again, no Jews claim they’re the chosen people. The phrase is meaningless to us, although evidently not so to you. Hence the endless whining, complaining, ranting, accusing.Kindly wait for your next thorazine dosage before posting again, unless you find you can do so with civility, which I somehow doubt. Alternatively, seek pastoral help.And once again your ignorance sounds banshee like in the night. You are a completely discredited fool. What are you, 14? Which of your split personalities are you now?

  • Farnaz2

    Stadtbear:And once again your ignorance sounds banshee like in the night. You are a completely discredited fool. What are you, 14? Which of your split personalities are you now?February 14, 2009 12:12

  • stadtbear

    Perhaps, Farnaz2, et al., the real problem is that you are eaten with jealousy because 6 million dead Jews get more attention than you do.

  • Farnaz2

    Stadbear: stadtbear Author Profile Page:Perhaps, Farnaz2, et al., the real problem is that you are eaten with jealousy because 6 million dead Jews get more attention than you do.

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,You’re beating a dead horse, Farnaz. There certainly was anti-Semitism among the pre-war Poles just as there is anti-Palestinianism among the Jews of present day Israel who do not want to share “their” land with the people who were there before them, but there was also much tolerance in Poland too. Back in the day when there was a Polish State (and there had been none for most of the 150 years before WWII), the Poles were one of the only countries in Europe that invited the Jews to make a home among them. There likewise was some collaboration by Poles with the Germans, but the vast majority of Poles did not collaborate. You need to admit that. As to the undeniable stain of Anti-Semitism on the otherwise heroic actions of the Poles during WWII, the sad fact is that most countries–Jewish or Gentile–that have minorities within them nevertheless restrict their concept of “the nation” to those with whom the bulk of the people share a common ancestry. In the US, in the past, we went even further by actually having our Constitution regard some of those people as less than human. The Polish Constitution never took such a disgraceful position! I am grateful to report that we in the West, particularly in the US, have by now gotten beyond that. Neither pre-War Poland, which suffered greatly for long periods at the hands of larger more dominant countries such as Prussia and Russia, nor present day Israel, which likewise has a long “racial memory” of a unique history of suffering, though, chose to define their nationhood with respect to a more universal sense of brotherhood. Indeed, even in the Twenty First Century, Israel chooses to define itself as a “Jewish State.” Should the non-Jews who inhabit Israel be forced to accept that? Should they be second class citizens in their own country? We in the US would generally not try to impose such treatment on any minority, but we probably will never make an issue of the treatment of Arabs in Israel either.So, in the end, I can agree with you that the Poles too share in the sin of hostility to the other, but I don’t know any group that has escaped that flaw.

  • Farnaz2

    PatrickSarsfield:I don’t follow you at all. This discussion is about Poland. We appear to have a disagreement about Polish Catholics and institutionalized antisemitism. Such a discussion involves issues of citizenship, civic and human rights, etc. It necessarily involves the Catholic Church, specific clerics, pogroms, etc.Frankly, I don’t think we’re getting anywhere. I’ll post a bibliography, one that’s fairly up-to-date, and then go century by century. When the new bibliography is complete, if you’re interested, I’ll post that as well.Best,

  • Farnaz2

    Patrick:None of this is to say that there weren’t heroic Poles, e.g., Jan Karski or that all Poles were racists, of course.

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,Wow, talk about niggardly responses to one of the truly inspiring stories of bravery and horrid stories of suffering during WWII!You have an agenda to talk about historical anti-Semitism in Poland rather than about the great sacrifices and suffering of the Poles during WWII or their commendable passage of anti-Holocaust denial legislation, but, as I pointed out, you are beating a dead horse. As I have said, of course there was anti-Semitism in Poland as there is anti-Palestinianism in Israel, racial and religious prejudice in the US, etc. Your response to good news about countries like Poland (and the many other majority Catholic nations) that have passed Holocaust denial legislation is to suspect ulterior motives and to note that there were collaborators in those countries. Of course there were collaborators, but there were collaborators among every conquered group–including the Jews (e.g., Kapos and Jewish Police). Yet your response is to ignore that salient fact and to go back on the attack against the only country that suffered casualties amnong its Christians that approached 50% of the total Jewish deaths in the Holocaust. You judge the Poles far more harshly for the small amount of Collaboration that went on among Polish Catholics than you do your felloe Jews for similart collaboration. That is not fair.

  • Farnaz2

    patricksarsfield Author Profile Page:Farnaz,The question is whether you wish to know about antisemitism in Poland (pogroms involving the slaughter of tens of thousands throughout history, kidnappings of Jewish children, beatings and humiliations in the streets, University “days without Jews,” rapes, etc. up to and including those occurring during the German occupation.) Do you wish to know about Polish antisemitism post-Occupation?These are straightforward questions, having nothing to do with “collaboration,” a separate topic upon which I would also post. Since I don’t do this kind of work, half-assed, it will take me time and thought. Therefore, I need a straightforward answer, not demagogic defenses (I’m not accusing, just stating). Are you interested in what I have proposed to do for you, or aren’t you? If, so, no problem. If not, no problem.

  • patricksarsfield

    Response in two parts:

  • patricksarsfield

    Part Two of Response to Farnaz:

  • Farnaz2

    Btw.,Kindly, do not tell me what I will and will not forget or allow to be forgotten. You do not know me, nor do I know you.

  • Farnaz2

    Patrick:That is unquestionably a whitewash of History, and yet you would never let the sufferings of the Jewish people in the Holocaust be forgotten because of the undeniable collaboration of Jews like the Kapos and Jewish Police or because of the anti-Palestinianism that major segments of the Jewish people have shown.Then you close with an indecipherable, incomprehensible cause/effect construction. Kindly translate the sentence with which you end your post.Note: I have not yet touched the tip of the iceberg, regarding Polish Catholic antiJewish racism, let alone Polish Catholic collaboration with the Nazis.

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,We need to discuss the good things done by Poles because you started out maligning a number of countries that have passed anti-Holocaust Denial Legislation and suggested that they may have had ulterior motives for passing such. You noted that they–like all the conquered peoples, including the Jews–had had collaborators among them and many had histories of anti-Semitism. You even doubted that countries like Lithuania lost many Christians to the mobile death squads of the Nazis who wanted to eliminate Slavic “untermenschen” as well as Jews. I responded that Poland and Lithuania had suffered greatly in the Holocaust even if one ignores the deaths of Jews from their countries. The Germans’ Killing Machine killed 11 Million people, 6 million jews and 5 million gentiles. We have been back and forth about your refusal to recognize that there were far more Polish gentile victims of the Holocaustt than there were Polish collaborators. Your most recent responses include this:”Note: I have not yet touched the tip of the iceberg, regarding Polish Catholic antiJewish racism, let alone Polish Catholic collaboration with the Nazis.”When you come up with a cogent explanation why that racism and collaboration disqualifies the legitimate Polish suffering and sacrifice from consideration while Jewish anti-Palestinianism and Jewish collaboration with the Nazis (the Jewish Police, the Kapos, the Transfer Agreement) should be ignored, we can move onto the stuff you want to address. You have still not addressed my points though and you need to do so. You need to confront the fact that all countries have xenophobic shame in their histories (ever hear of the Battle of Jericho or Shattila??) and all the conquered people of Europe supplied collaborators to the Nazis. Yet the Poles have a History of resistance to the Nazis too that meritsrecognition that they have their own reasons NEVER TO FORGET!

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,It is written in English and it is quite understandable. To repeat:”Instead of focusing on that History of Bravery and Suffering of the Polish nation (which played a major part in bringing about the End of the Cold War, the collapse of Communist Dictatorships throughout Eastern Europe and the Fall of the Evil Empire, the Old Soviet Union), you would condemn an entire nation for the collaboration and shameful anti-Semitism of some. That is unquestionably a whitewash of History, and yet you would never let the sufferings of the Jewish people in the Holocaust be forgotten because of the undeniable collaboration of Jews like the Kapos and Jewish Police or because of the anti-Palestinianism that major segments of the Jewish people have shown. I agree that that suffering should never be forgotten but you need to admit the great suffering and sacrifice of the Polish People.”

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,So, this remembrance thing is just a question of whose ox is gored? BTW, I am not Polish. I am an admirer of the great sacrifice of the Polish Nation during and subsequent to WWII though.

  • Farnaz2

    PatrickSarsfield:I am increasingly at a loss to follow your logic. As you say, you are composing in English, but any language can be voided of logic. This you accomplish admirably in the case of America’s lingua franca. I have posted two links on Polish Catholic antisemitism, dealing with a fraction of the kidnappings, rapes, tortures, pogroms, public humiliations, etc., which Polish Catholics visted upon Jews historically. Up to the day of the nazi invasion, indeed while the Germans were massing at Poland’s borders, Polish Catholics were practicing antisemitism, directing violence at Polish Jews, sponsoring University Days without Jews, etc. So busy were the Polish Catholics with their nativist antisemitism that they ignored the coming war.On these links, on historic Polish antisemitism you have nothing to say. Instead you bring up Polish Catholic “collaborators” with the Nazis whom I have not yet even addressed. “Jewish police” existed in the ghettoes. I haven’t even come to the ghettoes or to the occupation.Then you bring up the Israeli Palestinian conflict which is as relevant to the Holocaust as the the World Series is to football. We are talking about the Shoah, which you simply won’t deal with or engage. Elsewhere on this blog I posted on Catholic/Christia–historic events. It took me six posts to get through it, yet I spent the time, since those invested in denying antisemitism tend not to go to links. I keep waiting for you to comment on those I posted. Instead they refer to the World Series, its connection to football, and the Bronx Zoo.So, although it will take time, and although I can’t do it all at once, I will post various lists of Catholic Jew-killing, Jew-torturing, Jew-baiting, etc.There doesn’t seem anything else I can do, since you won’t engage the topic. I’ll be on the lookout for any posts that might attempt legitimate dialogue.In the meantime, I’M POSTING THIS IN CAPS, SO THAT YOU WILL BE SURE TO SEE IT, SINCE I’M ANXIOUS TO HAVE DATA ON THIS, ALTHOUGH IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CATHOLIC/CHRISTIAN ANTISEMITISM.YOU WRITE:anti-Palestinianism that major segments of the Jewish people have shown.Sources and percentages, please, i.e., overall Jewish population, per cent that has shown the behavior you indicated, the nature of the behavior. Kindly post nation by nation.

  • Farnaz2

    Timeline of antisemitism continued

  • Farnaz2

    TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED:2006 February

  • Farnaz2

    Timeline of Antisemitism continued2002

  • Farnaz2

    PatrickSarsfield:Here begins my reply to your last post. Please read this comment first to make sense of the timeline and other documents I shall publish. As I explain I’ll be on the lookout for your reply to the matter I place in caps.To make navigation easier for you, I will post this comment at various intervals. The timeline is scant and will be accompanied by others. First things first however, and it will take me awhile to post this one in its entirety, since the censor won’t permit it.Start here, please:February 15, 2009 5:37 PM

  • Farnaz2

    ANTISEMITISM TIMELINE CONTINUED

  • Farnaz2

    TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

  • Farnaz2

    TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: ANTISEMITISM TIMELINE CONTINUED1915

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

  • Farnaz2

    PatrickSarsfield: Timeline of antisemitism continued

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED:1827 August 26

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD:TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM1734

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD:TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED1563 February

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED1554

  • Farnaz2

    Farnaz2 Author Profile Page:PatrickSarsfield:Here [i.e., on the date posted below]begins my reply to your last post. Please read this comment first to make sense of the timeline and other documents I shall publish. As I explain on the other post, I’ll be on the lookout for your reply to the matter I place in caps.To make navigation easier for you, I will post this comment at various intervals. The timeline is scant and will be accompanied by others. First things first however, and it will take me awhile to post this one in its entirety, since the censor won’t permit it.Start here, please:February 15, 2009 5:37 PM

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD:TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED1496

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD:TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED1435

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED1322

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD:TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED1278

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD:TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED1229

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD:TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISMThirteenth century

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED1171

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUEDEleventh century

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED722

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUEDSeventh century

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUEDSixth century

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUEDFifth century

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUEDFourth century

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICKSARSFIELD: BEGINNING OF TIMELINE OF ANTISEMTISM–DESERVES A POST OF ITS OWN167

  • Farnaz2

    PatrickSarsfield, continued,I have spent a great deal of time posting the timeline that follows for you. I’d be interested in your thoughts, along with a reply to what I post above.I’m hopeful that other bloggers unfamiliar with the record will, at least, take a look at it. It is, as I say, sketchy. I’ll be filling in the blanks, providing details, etc.

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICK SARSFIELD, CONTINUED_Farnaz2 Author Profile Page:PatrickSarsfield:I am increasingly at a loss to follow your logic. As you say, you are composing in English, but any language can be voided of logic. This you accomplish admirably in the case of America’s lingua franca. I have posted two links on Polish Catholic antisemitism, dealing with a fraction of the kidnappings, rapes, tortures, pogroms, public humiliations, etc., which Polish Catholics visted upon Jews historically. Up to the day of the nazi invasion, indeed while the Germans were massing at Poland’s borders, Polish Catholics were practicing antisemitism, directing violence at Polish Jews, sponsoring University Days without Jews, etc. So busy were the Polish Catholics with their nativist antisemitism that they ignored the coming war.On these links, on historic Polish antisemitism you have nothing to say. Instead you bring up Polish Catholic “collaborators” with the Nazis whom I have not yet even addressed. “Jewish police” existed in the ghettoes. I haven’t even come to the ghettoes or to the occupation.Then you bring up the Israeli Palestinian conflict which is as relevant to the Holocaust as the the World Series is to football.We are talking about the Shoah, which you simply won’t deal with or engage. Elsewhere on this blog I posted on Catholic/Christian–historic events. It took me six posts to get through it, yet I spent the time, since those invested in denying antisemitism tend not to go to links.I keep waiting for you to comment on those I posted. Instead they refer to the World Series, its connection to football, and the Bronx Zoo.So, although it will take time, and although I can’t do it all at once, I will post various lists of Catholic Jew-killing, Jew-torturing, Jew-baiting, etc.There doesn’t seem anything else I can do, since you won’t engage the topic. I’ll be on the lookout for any posts that might attempt legitimate dialogue.In the meantime, I’M POSTING THIS IN CAPS, SO THAT YOU WILL BE SURE TO SEE IT, SINCE I’M ANXIOUS TO HAVE DATA ON THIS, ALTHOUGH IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CATHOLIC/CHRISTIAN ANTISEMITISM.YOU WRITE:anti-Palestinianism that major segments of the Jewish people have shown.Sources and percentages, please, i.e., overall Jewish population, per cent that has shown the behavior you indicated, the nature of the behavior. Kindly post nation by nation.February 15, 2009 5:37 PM

  • Farnaz2

    PATRICK SARSFIELD: CONTINUEDBelow you will find thirty or so posts comprising a timeline of antisemitism. The last post (Feb. 15, 5:49) is a repeat, a misstep, actually, so don’t waste time on it.Since this took thirty posts, an exhausting process, btw., to make this reply more comprehensible for you, I periodically pasted this:PatrickSarsfield:Here [i.e., on the date posted below]begins my reply to your last post. Please read this comment first to make sense of the timeline and other documents I shall publish. As I explain on the other post, I’ll be on the lookout for your reply to the matter I place in caps.To make navigation easier for you, I will post this comment at various intervals. The timeline is scant and will be accompanied by others. First things first however, and it will take me awhile to post this one in its entirety, since the censor won’t permit it.Start here, please:February 15, 2009 5:37 PM

  • patricksarsfield

    Part Two of Patricksarsfield Reply to Farnaz on Thirty Post or So TimelineThe Jedwabne pogrom is about the only material allegation in the Timeline on Polish Anti-Semitism in the period around WWII. Although shameful for the 40-800 Gentiles who participated in the pogrom, it is hardly a ground to condemn the Polish Nation for its overall conduct during WWII. I have previously pasted about the Polish Nation’s great contributions to the Allied effort and the great sufferings of Poland’s gentiles at the hands of the Holocaust.

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,

  • Farnaz2

    Part IIPatrickSarsfield:I am increasingly at a loss to follow your logic. As you say, you are composing in English, but any language can be voided of logic. This you accomplish admirably in the case of America’s lingua franca. I have posted two links on Polish Catholic antisemitism, dealing with a fraction of the kidnappings, rapes, tortures, pogroms, public humiliations, etc., which Polish Catholics visted upon Jews historically. Up to the day of the nazi invasion, indeed while the Germans were massing at Poland’s borders, Polish Catholics were practicing antisemitism, directing violence at Polish Jews, sponsoring University Days without Jews, etc. So busy were the Polish Catholics with their nativist antisemitism that they ignored the coming war.On these links, on historic Polish antisemitism you have nothing to say. Instead you bring up Polish Catholic “collaborators” with the Nazis whom I have not yet even addressed. “Jewish police” existed in the ghettoes. I haven’t even come to the ghettoes or to the occupation.Then you bring up the Israeli Palestinian conflict which is as relevant to the Holocaust as the the World Series is to football.We are talking about the Shoah, which you simply won’t deal with or engage. Elsewhere on this blog I posted on Catholic/Christian–historic events. It took me six posts to get through it, yet I spent the time, since those invested in denying antisemitism tend not to go to links.I keep waiting for you to comment on those I posted. Instead they refer to the World Series, its connection to football, and the Bronx Zoo.So, although it will take time, and although I can’t do it all at once, I will post various lists of Catholic Jew-killing, Jew-torturing, Jew-baiting, etc.There doesn’t seem anything else I can do, since you won’t engage the topic. I’ll be on the lookout for any posts that might attempt legitimate dialogue.In the meantime, I’M POSTING THIS IN CAPS, SO THAT YOU WILL BE SURE TO SEE IT, SINCE I’M ANXIOUS TO HAVE DATA ON THIS, ALTHOUGH IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CATHOLIC/CHRISTIAN ANTISEMITISM.YOU WRITE:anti-Palestinianism that major segments of the Jewish people have shown.Sources and percentages, please, i.e., overall Jewish population, per cent that has shown the behavior you indicated, the nature of the behavior. Kindly post nation by nation.February 15, 2009 5:37 PMFebruary 15, 2009 7:29 PM

  • Farnaz2

    Part IPatrickSarsfield, I read through your posts, but have yet to find a response to my original reply. If it’s there, please simply paste it. If not, please have the courtesy to compose it. (Btw., I suggest you go back through the timeline, this time selecting those PolishCatholic crimes against Polish Jews, since there are far more than the one you select and dispense with, but that can wait.) Your reply to the following earlier post, please,

  • Farnaz2

    PatrickSarsfield:After you have responded to my original question (scroll down), I will address the matter of the Timeline. First things first, if you don’t mind. Scroll down, please.

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,SORRY, but when you try to bury me in a pile of mess, I will unpack it as I see fit. I say mess because much of what you send is irrelevant either to Poland or even to Catholicism. I need to cut out the dreck first.For example, your 30 or so post “Timeline” of supposed Catholic anti-Semitism is replete with entries that concern other groups: 27 or so Muslim entries, 1 regarding the Sassanids of all people, and 67 non-Catholic Christian (or atheists living in Christian or formerly Christian lands) entries. You ignore all of my corrections and tell me to read something else. Okay, I understand: you’re essentially saying “don’t bother me with the facts.”. As to Poland, you claimed that the Timeline showed POlish anti-Semitism, and it included a VERY few incidents only one of which was in a period relevant to WWII. My post (February 16, 2009 12:00 AM ) specifically addressed Poland in the Timeline and it shows that most of the Poland entries show that Poland welcomed jews at a time when much of Europe didn’t. That explains why there were so many Jews in Poland in 1939. There were a bit more than 3 Million Jews in Poland, which was about 1/6 of the total number of Jews in the World.

  • Farnaz2

    PatrickSarsfield:Re: Your most recent postThe post we both reference was made prior to the Timeline. This is my third request. Kindly respond to it, and I shall then comment on your remarks on the Timeline.I am increasingly at a loss to follow your logic. As you say, you are composing in English, but any language can be voided of logic. This you accomplish admirably in the case of America’s lingua franca. I have posted two links on Polish Catholic antisemitism, dealing with a fraction of the kidnappings, rapes, tortures, pogroms, public humiliations, etc., which Polish Catholics visted upon Jews historically. Up to the day of the nazi invasion, indeed while the Germans were massing at Poland’s borders, Polish Catholics were practicing antisemitism, directing violence at Polish Jews, sponsoring University Days without Jews, etc. So busy were the Polish Catholics with their nativist antisemitism that they ignored the coming war.On these links, on historic Polish antisemitism you have nothing to say. Instead you bring up Polish Catholic “collaborators” with the Nazis whom I have not yet even addressed. “Jewish police” existed in the ghettoes. I haven’t even come to the ghettoes or to the occupation.Then you bring up the Israeli Palestinian conflict which is as relevant to the Holocaust as the the World Series is to football.We are talking about the Shoah, which you simply won’t deal with or engage. Elsewhere on this blog I posted on Catholic/Christian–historic events. It took me six posts to get through it, yet I spent the time, since those invested in denying antisemitism tend not to go to links.I keep waiting for you to comment on those I posted. Instead they refer to the World Series, its connection to football, and the Bronx Zoo.So, although it will take time, and although I can’t do it all at once, I will post various lists of Catholic Jew-killing, Jew-torturing, Jew-baiting, etc.There doesn’t seem anything else I can do, since you won’t engage the topic. I’ll be on the lookout for any posts that might attempt legitimate dialogue.In the meantime, I’M POSTING THIS IN CAPS, SO THAT YOU WILL BE SURE TO SEE IT, SINCE I’M ANXIOUS TO HAVE DATA ON THIS, ALTHOUGH IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CATHOLIC/CHRISTIAN ANTISEMITISM.YOU WRITE:anti-Palestinianism that major segments of the Jewish people have shown.Sources and percentages, please, i.e., overall Jewish population, per cent that has shown the behavior you indicated, the nature of the behavior. Kindly post nation by nation.February 15, 2009 5:37 PMFebruary 15, 2009 7:29 PMFebruary 16, 2009 2:11 AM

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz, Farnaz, all of this stuff should be culled. You may want to lump all gentiles (and even Jewish atheists like Karl Marx) together and blame the Catholic Church for a whole bunch of anti-Semitic acts in which it played no role, but very few people will pay much attention to such a transparently meritless attack.

  • Farnaz2

    PatrickSarsfield: Part IRe: Your most recent posts and fourth request for a reply to my firstKindly respond to the post I again paste below, which was made prior to my posting of the timeline. As stated, repeatedly, I shall then address your remarks on the Timeline.Re: Your most recent postThe post we both reference was made prior to the Timeline. This is my third request. Kindly respond to it, and I shall then comment on your remarks on the Timeline.

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,The major segments begin with Israel which accounts for about 35.7% of Jews Worldwide (source: You may try to justify the anti-Palestianian activities of the Jewish state, but it certainly is there, and it has been shown repeatedly over the last 100 years beginning with some of the bombing activities of people like Menachem Begin continuing with the expulsions accompanying the 1948 War and the 1982 massacres at Sabra and Shattila and continuing to this day. While the Palestinians have certainly given back in kind and started their own provocations, the fact remains that Israel is a confessional state which divides out as many gentiles as possible into captive statelets (essentially “bantustans” namely Gaza and the West Bank) which cannot stand on their own and which had historically been part of a single entity with the land carved out of Palestine known now as Israel. I can understand why the Israelis do not want to include the Palestinians in their body politic (it likely would prove demographic suicide) but the approach is not dissimilar to what the Spanish Catholics did when they regained the possession of their land after centuries of Muslim dominance: they wanted a Catholic state, just as the Israelis want a Jewish State. The Spanish resolution is not acceptable when looked at through Western 21st Century eyes, of course.Then there are Jewish American groups in the US whose support for Jewish attacks on the Palestinians cannot be denied. American Jews constitute 38.62% of the World Jewish Population per the same source. American Jews’ support for Israel is evidenced by the JVIE’s 2001 Analysis of the impact of the American Jewish vote that can be found at “In short, support for Israel is a unique issue capable of swinging very large sectors of the American Jewish electorate. Given that this electorate is concentrated in swing states that hold the key to national elections, where Jews may number as much as 5 percent of the potential voters, the Israel swing factor may indeed be decisive. The factor works visibly when a candidate’s positions toward the Jewish state significantly provoke the American Jewish electorate. It works latently when, as more often occurs, candidates seek to insure themselves against the Israel swing factor by taking sufficiently pro-Israel positions. That is what happened in 2000, for example. Of course, there are other reasons why candidates might take a staunchly pro-Israel stand. They may feel that the U.S. has an interest in a strong Israel as the only democracy and reliable U.S. ally in the volatile Middle East. Nevertheless, the Israel swing factor provides a strong incentive.

  • patricksarsfield

    Farnaz,NOPE. As I have noted before, when you dump the pile of stuff you dumped on me—which reveals little more than that you know how to cut and spaste–I will dig myself out as I see fit. I am not surprised, though, that you don’t want to address my unpacking of your Timeline.

  • patricksarsfield

    Part One of Broken Up Response to Farnaz’s Link One on Polish Anti-Semitism:My response to this link had to be broken in two because of its size.Most of the post concerned the scope of the German Holocaust on the Jews and the Polish Christians too. It in large measure confirms what I have written about the great suffering of the Polish Christians in the Holocaust. I would quibble with the figure it uses for Polish Christian deaths: 2 Million. I have seen the figure as 3 Million in other accounts.Again, “silent acquiescence” is far from the active participation in the Holocaust by large numbers of Poles that you suggest occurred.

  • renaspromise

    As the biographer of the 716th woman in Auschwitz, Rena Kornreich Gelissen, I was moved to write Bishop Williamson a letter and speak for the woman who’s voice I became, who can no longer speak for herself. What began as a letter of anger changed, when I realized that Rena herself would have prayed for Bishop Williamson. Rena lost her faith in Auschwitz, watching children going to the gas, she prayed to God to smite just one Nazi down and when that did not happen, she gave up her faith. When her story was published in 1995, she confided in me that she God had finally answered her prayer. “If just one Holocaust denier changes his or her mind after hearing my story, God has answered my prayer.” I believe that God has answered her prayer many many times since then and pray that perhaps, Bishop Williamson will be one of those people.

  • Farnaz2

    Folks:The history of EuroCatholic antisemitism, including Polish Catholic antisemitsm, and AmeriCatholic antisemitsm is two thousand years old, and hasn’t ended yet. Patrick Sarsfield, with his endless drivel is an excellent case in point.

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