Pope Must Denounce Holocaust Deniers

Like flat earthers, Holocaust deniers simply refuse to acknowledge reality. On being shown pictures taken from a satellite that showed … Continued

Like flat earthers, Holocaust deniers simply refuse to acknowledge reality. On being shown pictures taken from a satellite that showed the earth as a sphere, Samuel Shenton, the head of the Flat Earth Society, reportedly said, “It’s easy to see how a photograph like that could fool the untrained eye.” In a similar vein, British Bishop Richard Williamson, the renegade Roman Catholic cleric whose excommunication was recently lifted by Pope Benedict XVI, declared on Swedish television that, “I believe that the historical evidence is largely against, is hugely against six million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler . . . . I believe there were no gas chambers.” Williamson went on to say that he thought that “between two to three hundred thousand Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps but none of them by gas chambers.” To the likes of Shenton and Williamson, facts and evidence do not matter.

While the flat-earthers are, on the whole, benign kooks, Holocaust deniers are dangerous, generally combining their efforts to defend and whitewash Hitler, Nazism and the Third Reich with an obsessive, more often than not virulent anti-Semitism. In addition to his denial of the Holocaust, Williamson has endorsed the authenticity of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the notorious Russian Czarist forgery that purports to depict a Jewish conspiracy to rule the world, and has written publicly of “the false messianic vocation of Jewish world-dominion, to prepare the Anti-Christ’s throne in Jerusalem.”

Pope Benedict’s decision to bring Williamson back into the Roman Catholic fold has met with a firestorm of criticism. Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Elie Wiesel, a survivor of the Nazi concentration camps of Auschwitz and Buchenwald, said that Pope Benedict’s rehabilitation of Williamson gives credence to “the most vulgar aspect of anti-Semitism.” While American Roman Catholic cardinals and bishops have been reluctant to criticize the Pope, some of their European counterparts have been far less reticent. Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, the Archbishop of Vienna, sharply criticized the lifting of Williamson’s excommunication, declaring that “he who denies the Holocaust cannot be rehabilitated within the Church.” Ad van Luyn, the Bishop of Rotterdam and chair of the Dutch Roman Catholic Bishops’ Conference, called the decision “disastrous.” Archbishop Reinhard Marx of Munich said that “Every denial of the Holocaust must be punished harshly.” And the Archbishop of Hamburg, Werner Thissen, told a German newspaper that “There is obviously a loss of confidence” in the Pope, and that “rehabilitating a denier is always a bad idea.”

To be sure, Pope Benedict has sought to distance himself from Williamson’s views, albeit without directly criticizing the Holocaust denying cleric, by saying that “I wish that the memory of the Shoah will prompt humanity to reflect on the unpredictable power of evil when it conquers the hearts of men. May the Shoah be a warning for all against forgetting, denial and reductionism.” This Papal pronouncement does not, however, undo the damage caused by Williamson’s legitimation.

A little more than two years ago, in December 2006, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad convened an international pseudo-academic conference in Tehran entitled “International Conference on ‘Review of the Holocaust: Global Vision’,” with the participation of such luminaries as David Duke, the erstwhile Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, Robert Faurisson, a former professor of literature at the University of Lyon who, like Williamson, claims that the Germans did not use gas chambers to annihilate European Jewry, and Australian socialite Michele Renouf, who explained that anti-Semitism is caused by “the anti-gentile nature of Judaism.” For two days, they and other likeminded sociopaths “debated” at the Iranian Foreign Ministry whether or not my grandparents and my five-and-a-half-year-old brother were gassed at Auschwitz.

Why do Williamson’s rehabilitation and the 2006 Tehran conference have ominous significance? Because Duke, who managed to get 43 percent of the vote in his unsuccessful 1990 U.S. Senate campaign from Louisiana, is now able to tell students at colleges in heartland America with a straight face that his contention that there were never any gas chambers has international academic and institutional support, and because Holocaust deniers across the globe will interpret Williamson’s return into polite Roman Catholic society as a victory for their cause.

Holocaust denial is a pernicious strain of anti-Semitism, and Pope Benedict’s ill-conceived embrace of Bishop Williamson sends a clear message that anti-Semites are welcome within the Roman Catholic Church. As my friend Deborah Lipstadt, the Dorot Professor of Modern Jewish and Holocaust Studies and director of the Institute for Jewish Studies at Emory University, explains, Holocaust denial “has no purpose but to inculcate contempt for Jews. According to deniers Jews use the Holocaust to win the world’s sympathy and, in the course of so doing, win reparations from Germany and political support for Israel. Such a charge, based as it is the imagery of money and political manipulation, hearkens back to traditional antisemitic stereotypes. Why a pope would want to give support to such a movement is baffling. More baffling, however, is why a pope would want to associate the Vatican with someone who preaches lies and manipulations of history.”

What can Pope Benedict and the Roman Catholic leadership do now to at least mitigate some of the appalling fallout from the Williamson debacle? They must not only publicly and unambiguously repudiate and disavow Bishop Williamson’s heinous views, something the Pope has yet to do, but they should make Holocaust education a required part of the curricula of all Roman Catholic seminaries, universities and schools throughout the world. By affirmatively committing themselves to serious and comprehensive Holocaust education, they can demonstrate that the Vatican is serious about improving Jewish-Catholic relations.

Menachem Z. Rosensaft is an attorney in New York City and founding chairman of the International Network of Children of Jewish Holocaust Survivors. Both his parents survived Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen, but their families, including their respective first spouses and his mother’s five-and-a-half-year-old son, were murdered in the gas chambers of Auschwitz.

  • MichaelNJ

    By now the Pope’s move has been criticized not only by the people mentioned in the article but also by the German chancellor, and even some high office holders within the Vatican have called it a mistake (what about the doctrine of infallibility? Never mind). Nevertheless, the predictable collection of antisemites, conspiracy nuts and assorted whiners will be here in no time at all to peddle their usual wares: That the Jews are making a big deal out of nothing and are using the holocaust to make money and to oppress the poor Arabs and to control the banks and “the media”, and to dominate the world, and to do to others what the Nazis did to them, and Israel this and Zionism that, and the rest of the ugly garbage they routinely spew each time the subject of the holocaust comes up. That is really what this article is all about: Even if that Vatican acted in good faith, the consequence is to put the sheen of legitimacy on all the hatemongers who should have been consigned to the dustbin of history.

  • FrPeter

    This bishop should be forced to resign his position and an appology should be issued by the Vatican to Jews all over the world. This is a slap in the face of all of those who survived and their families. This sort of thing needs to stop. We may not like our past by that does not give us the right to deny it.

  • fishcrow

    It does seem the Pope is the most Christ-like of all those involved here, remembering to love our enemies. Loving someone does not mean you cast them aside if they do hateful things. It does not mean liking them. We should love others the way we love ourselves. Even when we ourselves do hateful things, and know we are wrong, we still want to fix them (if our conscience is not yet dead).

  • TheStiletto

    And what to make of Shimon Peres – an Armenian Genocide denier? Ditto ADL’s Abe Foxman. Until the Isreali govermnent and prominent American Jewish leaders stop their Ahmadinejad-like pronouncements on the Armenian Genocide, they have no moral standing to criticize the Pope.

  • spike59101

    One must wonder why the people who chose this geezer for popedom did such a thing. This is not the first we are hearing about his sympathies for the nazis. Did the people who chose him think that just because he puts the little tea cozy on his head he would suddenly become incapable of being a nazi sympathizer? Would that it were that simple.As for the prez of Iran: he’s not exactly the sharpest marble in the bag so his attendance with the rest of the idiots at their little denial of the holocaust hootenanny fits well.

  • captn_ahab

    Where are the Pope’s moral boundaries?Would he reinstate a Bishop who espouses birth control for Catholics?Would he reinstate a Bishop who advocated a woman’s right to choose to abort an unwanted pregnancy?Would he reinstate a Bishop who advocated same sex marriage?Would he reinstate a Bishop who advocated anti Semitism and Holocaust denial?Well, I guess we know the answer to the last question.Then we are left with the question of how anti Semitism differs from the Pope’s other moral boundary lines.An interesting moral question for the Pope.

  • ravitchn

    To deny the Holocaust is to deny the most true thing that can be said about the Human Race: it is murderous and its religious traditions have both furthered its murderousness and provided a means of overcoming this evil. To deny is to deny any meaning at all to the human endeavor.

  • zarniwoop3

    I’m not catholic, and I don’t look to the pope for any guidance in my life… But for those who do, who are you to tell him what he should and should not do? Seriously, if you believe the pope is God’s chosen leader on earth, and God’s chosen leader doesn’t mind if a bishop denies the extent of the holocaust, doesn’t that mean God doesn’t care much about such things? If He does, then the pope is in open defiance of God, and you should not follow him. If that’s the case, God is allowing a wicked man to lead his sheep, which is contrary to what most of you believe He would allow. So get this straight. Either the pope’s the Pope and you should let this go, or he’s not the representative he claims to be, and you need to find a different ecclesiastical leader.

  • mjhaftel

    I may end up giving the Pope the benefit of the doubt as to whether he knew of Williamson’s remarks on public television.

  • Stephen17

    The author has his opinion and I have mine. Sad to say neither of us will ever change our mind.

  • MichaelNJ

    “And what to make of Shimon Peres – an Armenian Genocide denier? Ditto ADL’s Abe Foxman. Until the Isreali govermnent and prominent American Jewish leaders stop their Ahmadinejad-like pronouncements on the Armenian Genocide, they have no moral standing to criticize the Pope.”Utter crap. Foxman called the Armenian genocide a genocide. Peres, like the U.S. and much of Europe, said it was something to be resolved between the Turks and the Armenians. It is unfortunate that Turkey is using that question as a political weapon, but if the US is trying to avoid confrontation with Turkey over that issue, there is no reason for Israel to seek such a confrontation. In addition, The Turks are in the habit of taking whatever grievances they have against israel out on the Jewish community in Turkey, and Israel must take it into account as well. What is the Pope’s excuse?

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    “What a tangled web we weave…”The Pope and the Catholic Church look the other way at holocaust deniers, when they, the Catholics are in the majority. But let me asssure you, that as someone born and raised int the American South, there are places where being Catholic is EVEN worse than being Jewish. The Pope is a small person, to suppose that his own “Cathlic Church” could not be targeted just as Jews are. Catholics are not the majority everywhere.There are many, many conflicts and confusions in the Catholic Church. The Pope, for example, is by all appearances, a gay priest, who condemns homosexuality as “intrinsically disordered” and if you point this out to any believing Catholic, then you, yourself become the target of their homophobic hostility and rants.As I said, the poor, pitiful Catholic Church, weaving its tangled webs…

  • tlong44

    no facts or evidence to back up that the earth is flat? You don’t need facts or evidence to support faith or religion either. Both are ridiculous, anti-rational movements encouraged and supported by dimwits and this just shows how inane it is to claim that any human can be “special” or “chosen” or somehow above the rest of us. Hr. Ratzinger is no different than any of us, and is equally suspect to superstition, stupidity, foolishness. Denying the holocaust is part of free speech, and if some clowns want to deny gravity, too, well that’s their right and I will defend it too.

  • edari2

    why is it so paramount not to deny the holocaust, throwing any conjecture to the wind, and denying genocide in Gaza with all the world a witness?

  • bevjims1

    Eating meat on Friday was a venial sin under one pope. Its now ok, except during Lent, under another pope. Women had to wear veils in church under one pope, now they can wear anything they like under another pope.Denying the holocaust would get you excommunicated by one pope, reinstated by another pope.So what is the problem? The Pope is suppose to be the embodiment of Christ on earth but we all know he’s human (mostly) and therefore fickle when it comes to political decisions. All it shows is that the Catholic Church does not have hard and fast rules, which is their supposed strength, and it shows that the church today is moving, politically, to the far right. It started with the polish pope, his inclusion of Opus Dei, his renunciation of much of Vatican 2, and it continues with a former nazi who seems less apaulled at holocaust deniers than the rest of us. One day Benedict or the next pope will go to far and the faithful will revolt, as they did with the pedophilia scandel, and demand change, swinging the pendulum back toward more liberal views. When one has seen this pendulum swinging like I have over the years you understand there is little about the church that has to do with God and much that has to do with politics and power. Too bad its not a democracy.

  • nibogees

    The Pope’s decision is an embarassment to the Roman Catholic community. How sad that after over 60 years of studies made into the holocaust that such awful people could hold humanity back so terribly.This is a step in the absolute WRONG direction for the Church!

  • ejstein2008

    Mr. Williamson needs to visit the Dachau memorial outside Munich to see for himself what took place there. Perhaps a meeting with Elie Wiesel would set him straight on the facts of Nazi mass extermination. The Pope has lost credibility as a supporter of Jewish-Catholic dialogue with his move reverse Williamson’s excommunication.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    edari2You are using the word “genocicide” as a synonym for the word “war.” I am sure you do not mean to imply that war is bad or that war should be outlawed. Every nation on the face of the earth reserves the right to wage war, and none of them are going to give up that right soon. Even Muslims, and all Islamic and Arabic governments reserve the right to build up very large armies, and to wage war, whenever they feel it is necessary. What do you think the word “genocide” means? But even if you remain willfully confused about the meaning of the word “genocide,” still knowledge of this word is not necessary to show some respect the for the six millions Jews that were exterminated in the Nazi death camps of World War II. If you belittle and marginalize their suffering, then you undermine your own credibility and moral authority when you comment on the Palestineans and the Gazans. You are just one more mean and nasty voice, venting personal frustrations, and seeking the most convenient scapegoar, to blame it all on.

  • beer2miami

    The Jews play victims again. I believe the holocaust did exist. I believe also that the destruction of Jerusalem did happen in 70 AD. I believe that 4 million Africans died recently in the war between Hutu and Tutsi. I believe also that there are other victims in the world and not only Jews.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    …and another thing Edan2The Nazis who threw six million Jews into the ovens would just as easilly have thrown a million Palestinians in along with them, because according to the racial theories of the Nazis, Palestineans would also qualify as “semites” and would therefore be considered good for nothing except fertilizer.

  • beckert482000

    If you care to venture out on the Internet, you will see Holocaust deniers raise some seemingly good questions. Fortunately, the honest person seeking for the truth will find excellent answers to those questions. There is no question in my mind that the Holocaust occurred the way it has been presented in the mainstream media, but this is because I researched the subject in detail. I did not come to this conclusion because some Jewish authoritarian forced me to believe, or because I was brainwashed in elementary school. I studied it because I wanted to know the truth.Bishop Williamson, nutty as he is, may actually be performing a service by getting people interested in actually studying the Holocaust. I am amazed that the Jewish community has overlooked the larger question of the Christian belief of Jewish responsibility for the death of Jesus, and the Holocaust simply being God’s retribution on the Jews. This is not my belief, but it is out there and not uncommon.

  • musing

    As a veteran and a R.C. this Pope is creating a lot of decesion. He was a member of the Nazi youth and although he may now say he is against the holocaust he should have never allowed this Bishop back in the fold.Time for a modern thinking R.C. pope. Time for priests to be married

  • DMZ1

    MichaelNJ:You said: “Peres, like the U.S. and much of Europe, said it was something to be resolved between the Turks and the Armenians”. And you accept this as OK? Issues of genocide are something to be worked out between the perpetrators and the victims? This is the same kind of moral and intellectual bankruptcy embodied in Holocaust denial. Of all the people in the world, shouldn’t Jews be the first ones to setp and call evil what it is? I am astonished and disappointed at your moral relativity.

  • scooterlibre

    I think it’s silly to bring up the flat earth to counter Bishop Williamson’s viewpoint. Watch his interview tentatively, listen to every word that he said i.e. 6,000,000 figure, gas chamber, cyanide, number of burbers, etc. Counter his words with fact, hard evidence such as skeletons’ count, skulls’ counts. No one can believe the Holocaust + 6,000,000 if the name callings continue. Smoke screening the 6,000,000 figure with a flat earth is just silly.

  • mipost1

    If you read the website of the SSPX society, you can see that this is NOT a group in good standing with the Catholic Church. And Williams is on the edge of even this group. The Pope’s decision obviously did not indicate any approval of him or the other three bishops, since none of them is currently allowed to officially administer anyone, teach, preach, or make any sort of pronouncement on faith or morals. Reading the Pope’s speech from Auschwitz “in this place of horror” several years ago should set any futher doubts to rest. (Furthermore, it looks to me like these bishops will need a miracle to have a change of heart.) By analogy, suppose some people flee the country, denounce its rulers as corrupt and illegitimate, and take steps toward setting up a rebel government in exile. One of this group makes the pronouncement that the world is flat. Later, after the original rebel leader has died, the country publicly reinstates the remaining members of the group as citizens, in preparation for their trials (and possibly release when their terms are served). Suppose a reporter then writes the article, “President embraces flat-earth rebel.” Said reporter would appear to be ill-informed.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    I am not Jewish. I was raised in a place where there were no Jewish people. My family seldom made reference to Jews, and certainly were not anti-semitic. My last name is not reasonbaly anything like a Jewish name, although it has a syllable that often appears in a well-known Jewish name. In fact, I am Celtic in appearance and complexion, although I have black hair.I do not hate Jews, and I feel some empathy for what happened to Jews during World War II in Nazi Germany. And sometimes I speak up. And for speaking up, I have been called a Jew lover; and I have even been called a Jew, citing my non-Jewish, Celtic last name, and my large nose as proof.But I am not Jewish, my last name is not Jewish, people have surgery on their noses to look more like me, and I cannot really be insulted by any of this non-sense. But I can be appalled.When people act this way and become red-faced with hysteria on the subject of “the Jews,” I think there is something pretty weird going on. It is some sort of “hate-the-Jews” mania that apparently, alot of people have. It is all wrapped up in a kind of fundamentalist relgious mania.I would like to add a little more here on the subject of Jewish names. I have known other non-Jewish acqaintacnes who have also been accused of being Jews and “Jew-lovers” for speaking up against anti-Jewish sentiment. It seems that the anti-Jewish people get a little confused over names. The suffix “berg” is often an indicator of Jewish name, but “borg” and “bourg” is more often Germanic or Scandinavian. Also, there are some Jewish names with the letter “z” in them, but if the same name appears with a letter “s” then it is more likely not a Jewish name.And of course, anyone can have any kind of name, and be any race or religions. Remember the episode of Seinfeld, when George’s mother talked to Jerry’s girlfriend, Donna Chang, on the phone, and took advice from her? And later when she met Donna Chang, and observed that she was a WASP, and not Chinese as she had assumed, she was very upset, even insulted, and felt that she had been deceived.This all goes to show the infantile and childish silliness of the the anti-Semitic, anti-Jewish holocaust deniers.Let us see if there are any “red-faced with hysteria” reactions to this post.

  • HerLao

    It is a good bet that Samuel Shenton is not a die hard Liberal!He and other “conservatives” do so cherish such deep knowledge of this world, as well as of the one “above” (where the great heavenly “father” and all the past Christian and other saintly people live), so gently nurtured over the centuries and carefully passed down the generations, through true disciples with real knowledge of the earth and of the heaven…!To conserve “knowledge” of the past, where “true knowledge” decreed by the “real Creator” was pure, is such a wonderful thing, isn’t it? That’s why Conservatives, some Conservatives, think liberalism is a “mental disease.”

  • MacNachtan

    It’s obvious from just a brief perusal of the comments on this page how utterly ill informed most of the people commenting on this issue are. Most of this is due to poorly researched and/or misleading reporting such as the story above. 1) this bishop was NOT excommunicated for his beliefs on the Holocaust. He was ordained by the French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre against a direct order by John Paul II. Lefebvre founded the Society of St. Pius the X, and his actions got himself and those accepting his ordination excommunicated. Disbelief in the Holocaust is not some belief that the Society holds as an article of faith. Richard Williamson just happens to be a member of the society and holds this belief. His believing it does not say anything about the rest of the society. Since Lefebvre death, the Catholic Church has been attempting to reach out to members of the Society and bring them back into communion with the church. 2) The recinding of the excommunication had absolutely nothing to do with the Pope accepting or endorsing all of the views of any individual member of the society. The Society and the Catholic Church are still NOT in communion (though several media reports have suggested they are). The recinding of the excommunications was done b/c the excommunications of these bishops was a “sticking point” that shuttered all attempts at negotiation between the church and the society. They were rehabilitated because they revoked any heretical ideas they may have espoused under Lefebvre and submitted to the Pope’s authority. 3) Belief or disbelief in the Holocaust or any aspect of it is not an article of faith within the Catholic Church, therefore one’s belief on this subject has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on whether or not one can receive the sacraments. In other words…this issue is NOT an “excommunicable” offense. It is interesting that Mr. Rosensaft would make the comparison to Flat-earthers. A Flat-earther is also just as eligible to receive the sacraments as a Holocaust denier; despite his/her imperfections, sinful nature, stupidity, irresponsibility, etc. A person who believes Shakespeare didn’t exist is welcome in the Catholic Church as well…it’s not an issue of heresy! 4) Now that the bishop is under the jurisdiction of the Pope again, he can be reprimanded for his statements (which I should point out were not released to the public by a European news agency until the very day the Pope rehabilitated the man). He can be ordered not to preach them or repeat them in public, he can be removed from service, etc. But as this issue just came to light DAYS ago, don’t expect an immediate reponse from an institution which is 2000 years old, always weighs its decisions carefully (unlike modern governments), and ALWAYS gives its people the chance to repent prior to reprimanding them. You will hear from the Pope…be patient.

  • thebink

    I have often thought that when skin heads, KKK groups whatever, have their rallies or parades, they should just be ignored. People always have and always will say hurtful things but if they get no reaction whatsoever they may just crawl back under their rocks.

  • Miech_Ghandu

    Like flat earthers and Warren commissioners, Holocaust deniers simply refuse to acknowledge reality.

  • MacNachtan

    Musing,

  • Seneca32

    What a disproportionate amount of the tinfoil-hat brigade are posting here, but then this subject always does tend to bring them out.And meanwhile, the Catholic Church continues to alternate between marginalizing itself and shooting itself in the foot.Sad. All very sad,

  • KraftPaper

    I have not read more than the headline but if this is true than I am glad the pope has changed his mind about restoring this liar to emminence. I understand someone said in the Post last week that antiSemites are hiding about their change of heart albeit insincere to find new ways to inculcate open minds to hate. It came as a shock that this pope would effectively have turned the clock backwards after decades of polite conversation. Does this mean we can join the country club?

  • PNP-KS

    As usual, most of these comments reflect an abyssmal ignorance of the Papacy, whose infallibility is limited to matters of Faith and Morals, ignorance of the teachings of the Catholic Church, and the distinct difference between opinion and doctrine. Guess what: The Jewish Holocaust is not an Article of Faith within the Church or outside of it, and a difference of opinion does not constitute antisemitism! While everyone is myopically focused on what happened to the Jews, which was, indeed, horrible, (and God help you if you forget about it or have another viewpoint), the annihilation of scores of millions of Catholics and other Christians by Stalin, Mao, the so-called “Republicans” in the Spanish civil war, Hitler (Oh, yes, he killed Catholics, too), and, at present, the murdering Muslims in Africa–in the 20th/21st centuries alone–is conveniently overlooked or forgotten altogether. While extremely imprudent, what Bishop Williamson said, a private opinion, remember, doesn’t begin to compare with the dirt dished out against the Pope and the Catholic Church day in and day out ad nauseum. Perhaps we Catholics should whine a lot more to make our point. After all, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

  • captainkona

    Quit whining, Zion. Freedom of speech is freedom of speech. If you don’t like it, too bad.I can find more accurate numbers concerning the “Holocaust” in Gaza.You Zionist Jews are quick to condemn someone for not accepting the manipulated numbers in your holocaust, but you “deny” the Holocaust in Gaza?Lousy, no-’count hypocrites.

  • jhutt123

    Why We Fight! The Holocaust, dictators, agression, terrorists, murders, and many other reasons are why American soldiers have given their lives to protect our froodoms and from tyrants. Only an sociopathic attention demanding idiot would deny the Holocaust and the genocides of modern tyants. Do not give them any opportunity to spew their ignorance and stupidity. Always remember the past so that it will not be forgotten. “Lest we Forget…!”

  • falcon269

    Merkel could just lay out the persuasive evidence she has on gas chambers and 6,000,000 dead Jews, and decisively end the debate.

  • gillhistory

    Sorry, MacNachtan, you really don’t get it. Although you are correct in your technical explanation about the ins & outs of excommunication I think what you miss — as did the Pope/Vatican — is that the church speaks to a vastly larger audience that its own faithful. It also speaks to history. Accepting back into the fold a person like Williamson, who is also very much a public figure, speaks far beyond the mere facts of the narrow confines of excommunication. Giving Williamson the shelter of the papacy gives him a huge boost in credibility and as a leader in the church his private views very much matter, unlike those of anyone in the laity alone. As a priest, Williamson must be held to a higher standard of conduct. Williamson uses his position as a priest to espouse not only his whacko views of the Holocaust, but also his views of women. The Vatican cannot have its cake and eat it too: on the one hand they very much want to become involved in the larger world of non-Catholics (an example being when they put the screws to Catholic — even non-Catholic — politicans in America re: Catholic views on issues such as abortion) but then deign to tolerate the radical, dangerous, and wholly untrue views of its own clerics under the guise that they don’t speak to personal opinion (although they strive hard to impact, even coerce it). But this is all part and parcel to the hubris and hypocrisy of the Church. BTW: you are wrong to suggest that we shouldn’t expect them to take any different position because they are notorious for moving with all the speed of molasses (you believe it caution) because it seems that this has blown up in their faces and even they are seeing it for what is is (and it ain’t good) because several hours ago they demanded that Williamson recant his Holocaust views. So, maybe in the end, they are striving to become more enlightened.

  • citysoilverizonnet

    Why not the HOLOCAUST denier Bishop and many others in the world should be called in the International Conference with their documents and let have a civilized dialogue to find out the truth and thereafter the matter should be put at rest for ever rather than shutting the heart and minds of Holocaust Deniers only TO APPEASE ONE GROUP.

  • wellwisherofall

    Yes, I am now convinced that the entire “holocaust industry” is confusing, at least for those who wish the best for everybody. I think Pope also in his heart believe in what Bishop Williamson believe, but he is insecure to publicly say that, fearing for his position and the position of his Church in the present day world that is actually controlled by those who articulated and maintaining the theory and belief of this “industry”. Looks like the world views on many issues are soon going to change and another “world order” will have the power to replace the present one. Let us wait and see.

  • mikie44

    With all due respect, I believe that the current Pope should have taken the name, Adolf II. I find it bewildering that he chose to “rehabilitate” this scurrilous Bishop. Any one who does not believe that more than 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazi’s during WWII is operating so far beyond the pale as to deserve the same fate.

  • MichaelNJ

    DMZ1 : “Of all the people in the world, shouldn’t Jews be the first ones to setp and call evil what it is?”Should they? Can you explain why? Can you explain why is it that Israel alone has to answer for a position held by most other nations, or even to take a public position on an issue that other nations can afford to simply ignore? Why is it that no one else wants to antagonize Turkey on that issue but Israel alone is taken to task for that? If you can tell me why, I will answer your question.

  • babyfacemagee

    So I guess if the holocaust never happened then Obama wasn’t elected president, the english were never bombed in WWII and that english muffin on my plate isn’t really an english muffin.Holocaust deniers are simply anti-semitic nutjobs who channel their own lack of accomplishment and anger at their own life towards jews. It’s the same old story. You fail in your own life so you blame someone else for your weakness/incompetence. Of course if it were THEIR father/mother/brother/sister marched into the gas chambers and then incinerated in an oven they’d be the first to cry foul. Antisemites…and that’s all this is…just another form…are the same as they’ve always been. Unselfaware, unable to deal with their own lot in life and ‘deluded’ into not taking responsibility for their own lives…much easier to blame the jew. Unfortunately what they don’t realize is that their lives will continue to suck until they stop trying to blame someone else and actually work on themselves and take responsibility for their own future. But antisemites are weak and weakness is easy. To be self-sufficient and self-responsible…that is a strength they don’t possess.

  • martimal2005

    Unbelieveable that this is still an issue, and incredulous that a Roman-Catholic bishop is at the center of this controversy. You’d think that by now 2009, anyone with these ridiculous ideas would keep them locked in the back of their mind. To deny the truth no matter what your belief is to look like an idiot. I have to wonder about the church and those in charge. Pope John Paul did so much to heal and now we look as though we are reversing. I guess we should deny slavery, the Inquistion, the Salem witch trials, the destruction of China by the Japanese during WWII, apartheid, and while we are at it let’s deny 911. where do these people come from? I guess Anti-Semitism, racism, and ultra-nationalism are going to take another 100 years to die. Unbelievable.

  • Bluefish2012

    One would think that those people so offended by Pope Benedict XVI’s actions would have the church reconstitute the Office of the Inquisition to hunt down everyone in the church with a politically incorrect opinion, and what? Burn them at the stake?Perspective folks, perspective.

  • MacNachtan

    Gillhistory,

  • beer2miami

    I LOVE THIS! THANKS: Bluefish2012One would think that those people so offended by Pope Benedict XVI’s actions would have the church reconstitute the Office of the Inquisition to hunt down everyone in the church with a politically incorrect opinion, and what? Burn them at the stake?Perspective folks, perspective.

  • beer2miami

    If the Catholic Church can not excommunicate the KENNEDY FAMILY for their abortionist stand and the abortionist Democrat US Representatives…. why then excommunicate Williamson?

  • agnostic1

    Flat-Earthers are the perfect comparison for this type of thinking. I believe that Holocaust deniers have a mental disorder just like flat-earthers do. It’s not really their fault for being so paranoid.However, I think the most important point to be made here is that religion is just plain stupid. How can you morons believe in some hocus-pocus so strongly that you’re willing to go to war over it and hate each other? IT’S ALL FICTION (not the halocaust, that was a horrible event that happened because of racism and paranoia).

  • MacNachtan

    Yes Agnostic1, if history teaches us anything, its that the religious have a monopoloy on warfare and hatred…give me a break.

  • rleb2002

    If the holocaust story is so truthfully, why is that furor on that, denying a truthfully story is, to practice a part-of democracy, an in denying it is practicing democratic values, why that furor ? is not understandable why is shush a furor or madness about it?? perhaps there is a lot to say, or investigate about it, but the why it’s handle by the media and semites the way it’s handle, alike, it says a lot!! there is a mess. something wrongs about all of it???But is seems nobody want to remove or to investigate anything on that!!, Why??? , maybe same things are very wrong about all of it!!!

  • rleb2002

    If the holocaust story is so truthfully, why is that furor on that, denying a truthfully story is, to practice a part-of democracy, an in denying it is practicing democratic values, why that furor ? is not understandable why is shush a furor or madness about it?? perhaps there is a lot to say, or investigate about it, but the why it’s handle by the media and semites the way it’s handle, alike, it says a lot!! there is a mess. something wrongs about all of it???But is seems nobody want to remove or to investigate anything on that!!, Why??? , maybe same things are very wrong about all of it!!!

  • rleb2002

    f the holocaust story is so truthfully, why is that furor on that, denying a truthfully story is, to practice a part-of democracy, an in denying it is practicing democratic values, why that furor ? is not understandable why is shush a furor or madness about it?? perhaps there is a lot to say, or investigate about it, but the why it’s handle by the media and semites the way it’s handle, alike, it says a lot!! there is a mess. something wrongs about all of it???But is seems nobody want to remove or to investigate anything on that!!, Why??? , maybe same things are very wrong about all of it!!!

  • incensed

    As a daughter of a Jew who is now paying for my (recently converted to Catholicism) daughter to attend a Catholic university I am outraged by this reinstatement. Every person of any intellectual and moral merit (faithful and non- believers in a GOD) must be willing to stand in the face of such murderous facism– the Nazis and others. By doing this, the Pope has made me question his moral standing— and made me seriously re-consider my college tuition decision.

  • wiccan

    Somali-I urge you to get counseling, or medication, or both. Hatred such as yours is much more harmful to you than to those you hate. Really, if you despise the Jewish people so much, why do you allow them such power over you?

  • incensed

    By the way– i say this because I have both researched the Holocaust, AND I have relatives who were killed or almost killed by the Nazis including my own father, whom I believe!

  • Alex511

    fr babyfacemcgee:>Holocaust deniers are simply anti-semitic nutjobs who channel their own lack of accomplishment and anger at their own life towards jews. It’s the same old story. You fail in your own life so you blame someone else for your weakness/incompetence. …Oh, SO true.I live in the Sacramento CA area, and we have TWO nutjobs here who are half-brothers and they have this silly organization that denies the Holocaust, even though they were RAISED in Germany. They were going to have a “convention” of deniers at a local Turn Verein (German-American) clubhouse here a couple years ago, and when the director found out what kind of group was coming, he returned their security deposit check, uncashed.Turns out Hans (his real name) whined, creebed and moaned about how much food he had bought for it and already cooked. I wrote in to the local paper and suggested he donate it to the local homeless help agency (as he REALLY hates homeless people, too). Never heard from his mouth again…wonder why?

  • MacNachtan

    Mary_Cunningham,

  • mipost1

    GillHistory, you say that “As a priest, Williamson must be held to a higher standard of conduct.” There’s no such thing as un-ordaining in the Catholic Church, so this would seem to be the only solution (other than sweeping the problem under the rug). You can’t discipline your children very effectively if they’ve run away from home. As long as the SSPX is off by itself, isolated from the rest of the church, there is no way the bishops are going to obey the pope in anything. But since the excommunication was lifted, they are now (ever so slightly) closer to recognising the fact that they have been suspended from duty for disobedience.(Granted, they have to admit the mistakes before being forgiven.) Williams has just added ‘causing public scandal’ and ‘culpable ignorance’ to his list of things to answer for.You cannot make ignorance go away simply by pretending it does not exist. You have to do something.

  • Arminius

    So, then, Williamson has been ordered to recant. Who will believe him if he does try this?

  • wiccan

    Whistling-I want to be sure I understand you. Paraphrasing: Israel “screams” about the murders of over 6,000,000 men, women, and children who were killed for being Jews only to distract the world from her actions in Gaza? How’s that working for her?

  • Farnaz2

    Wiccan,Hi! Sorry, but I haven’t heard “Israel screaming” about anything. To what are you referring? What has Israel got to do with Williamson and his ilk?Farnaz

  • captn_ahab

    Whistling sounds like a typical Hamas apologist and anti Semite.The new anti Semitism is a lot cooler than the old.It aligns you with the “oppressed Palestinians” and allows all kinds of shenanigans by villifying Israel rather than Jews.That is not to say that everything Israel does is honky dory. The new anti Semitism just attacks Israel like it is different than any other country in the world, and that its struggle against Palestinian aggression is the worst crime in the world.Worse than Darfur, worse than the Taliban, worse than any oppresion within the Arab world….

  • Farnaz2

    I don’t see the link between Israel and the Holocaust. For one thing, the nazis and their compadres were, for the most part, Europeans, not Arabs. It is true that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a nazi, and there were some others, but they were not the mass murderers. Where is the connection?

  • wiccan

    Merry Meet, Farnaz. “Whistling’s” two posts were about justifying anti-semitism and Holocaust denial based on Israel’s current actions in Gaza. Captn’ Ahab shot Whistling down very nicely. Smartly done, Sir!

  • mightysparrow

    Making all Jews guilty for what Israel does is pure bigotry. Your ignorance (or disingenuous argument) is obvious. Moreover, the attacks in Gaza have been criticized in many ways by many Jewish people, both inside and outside Israel. In addition, the defense of the truth about the Holocaust has nothing to do with the attacks in Gaza. Defense of the truth is justifiable for many reasons- none of them having anything to do with support or defense of the Gaza actions by Israel.

  • jakdur

    Why is Benedict’s own personal association with Nazi ideology never mentioned in an article like this?Use this search string in Google:

  • BubbaRight

    What are they going to do, fire him?

  • MacNachtan

    Jakdur,Because anyone who’s intellectually capable of conducting research beyond a Wikipedia article or Google search is aware that membership in the Hitler Youth was more or less cumpulsory under the Reich. In fact, you know you are being entirely disengenuos in asking the question as the full quaote from Wikipedia reads, “Following his fourteenth birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was enrolled in the Hitler Youth, as membership was required for all 14-year old German boys after December 1939, but was an unenthusiastic member and refused to attend meetings.” His family (father in particular) were outspoken critics of the Nazi regime and he eventually went AWOL once conscripted.

  • Farnaz2

    mightysparrow:”Making all Jews guilty for what Israel does is pure bigotry.” Of course. We can neither blame nor credit all Jews for what Israel does, just as we cannot blame all Christians (generically speaking) for what the US does. Can we blame all Christians for the scourge of Iraq? 120,000 Iraqis dead, countess maimed for life, an unknown number homeless refugees? Can we blame all Christians for the Iraqi boys and girls forced to prostitute themselves in Damascus, to service male Arabs form all over the ME?Can we blame all Christians for the collective punishment of the Afghan people? Leaving ninety some odd thousand dead? Countless others maimed for life? The nation in rubble?Can we blame all Christians for the billions it gives to Egypt which gives missiles to terorists who fire them into Israel?Can we blame all Christians for its support of Saudi Arabia which exports terror to other nations including this one, the US where I live?Can we blame all Christians because the US supported and trained Osam bin Ladin and the Taliban?

  • hhkeller

    What about GAZA and Lebanon

  • scooterlibre

    Please concentrate. I think most everyone is diverting from the main issue herein which is about Bishop Williamson and how he saw the Holocaust. The Bishop saw it as [Holocaust = 300,000 + zero cyanide gas chamber + whatever else] while the Jews saw it as [Holocaust = 6,000,000 + many other things]. To the Bishop, the cyanide gas was toxically lethal to both, the giver and the receiver, the number of burners was limited, etc. therefore 300,000. In the interview, I did not see the Bishop appear to be any bigot or as a Jew hater. He simply challenged history with a point of view with some scientific sense. If you start name calling the Bishop, you are acting silly as a child. Here’s an example of acting silly: Judy told her dad that Adolf hit her 60 times. Bill walked in, said to both Jud and dad that he thought Adolf hit Jude 3 times by looking at the bruises. Instead of proving her 60 point, Judy cried and screamed “Bill hates me, Bill hates me. He is a bigot.” Numbers must have significance. If there’s deviation, we need to find out why. International Red Cross “estimated” casualties in Iraq to be 500K, Bush thought around 80K. 500K – 80K = 420K. Why the difference? It depends on where you come from. I saw the Bishop as a neutral person. What does he gain to challenge the Holocaust = 6,000,000 equation? There is no hatred in his equation which is Holocaust = 300,000. The burden of proof is on the Jews to come up with 5,700,000 hard evidence. The Earth can be flat, square or whatever shape but gravity keeps bones, skeletons and hair on Earth. Those don’t fly on another world like souls. Show the Bishop the skulls to shut down his math, 1 skull =1 count is hard evidence. Given the limited numbers of burners, get your calculator out, show the Bishop your calculated time to burn to ash 5,700,000 bodies if it’s done 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

  • edbyronadams

    ravitchn srote:”To deny the Holocaust is to deny the most true thing that can be said about the Human Race: it is murderous and its religious traditions have both furthered its murderousness and provided a means of overcoming this evil. To deny is to deny any meaning at all to the human endeavor.”_________________________________________Without denying the Shoa, one could acknowledge that the European Jewish genocide is hardly unique in human history or prehistory.On another note, some religions try harder to erase tribal passions than others. Islam is not a leader in this category.

  • ConservativeCEO

    HELLO,why is it Jewish culture seems so centered upon such a horrible event? my understanding about Jewish culture it is a long ultra rich tapestry of fantastic accomplishments, why then anchor yourself is a real bad event.. seems foolish to taint your whole cultures accomplishments by being so focussed on such a heinious thing. Are we supposed to pity the jewish community for such a loss, rather than laud them for what they do now?just seems frankly the powers i the jewish community would rather focus on the bad than the good..

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    I had 2 uncles that fought in World War II, in the American army. One of them never spoke a word to anyone, that we know of, about his experiences, not even to his wife. If you hinted that you would like him tell a war story, he would not take the hint. If you were persistent, and came right out and asked, he would refuse; if you really insisted, he would refuse rudely. He would not discuss it, tell stories about, nor even really acknowlege that anything had happened at all.But of course, something truely awful did happen. Since he never said, I had to read about it in books, and watch documentaries. I have no reason not to believe that the holocaust happened. My other uncle who fought in the war would tell war stories, if you asked. He always made up something light-hearted and fun to tell, some little story about French girls in a meadow, or something like that. Then he would change the subject. He was more polite in his refusals, but he never really told anything, either.Something definitely happened in Germany, that was too terrible to say, for the people who actually went there and saw it.I firmly believe this, with rock-solid-certainty.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    The war in Gaza is too bad, but it is “just another war” in the wars on top of wars that have plagued mankind since before Egypt. War is common place and ordinary. You throw a bomb, and they throw one back. You shoot at them, and they shoot back. When one side cannot take it anymore, then they surrender, or the two sides work something out.This constant and never ending, pick, pick, pick like little children, back and forth bomb-throwing such as we see in Gaza is just more of the same old thing. I somehow feel that the 2 sides could get together, if they wanted to and work things out. The problem is the leaders, at least, have not reached that point yet. There is a war going on between Gaza and Israel. But there are also a number of other wars going on in the world right now, this very moment, that are far more firece and terrible than the Gaza war. I want to care about all these little wars, all these little grievances, each againsst the other, piled up high on top of each other, but frankly, they are other people’s folly, and too numberous really to care very much about.How can any sane person complare these things to the planned extermination of six million Jews in German death camps, plus several uncertain millions more gay people, cripple and handi-capped people, old people, and politically unfavored people, and anyone else not “aryan” enough?People who promote holocaust-denial are actually flamboyantly advertising their own ignorance about the world and about mankind, and showing everyone else how backward and insenstivie they are. Their credibility on emapathy for others, for the Palestineans, and Gazans, and for anyone eles, goes straight to ZERO, in my own estimation, as they wallow in nothing more than bitter attempts to scapegoat others for their own shortcomings, failures, and disappointments in life.

  • MichaelNJ

    Michael Santomauro:”It is my position that the veracity of Holocaust assertions should be determined in the marketplace of scholarly discourse”It is my position that the veracity of the assertion that last night you ran over an old lady and left her to bleed to death on the road should be determined in the marketplace of scholarly discourse. However, the veracity of the assertion that you are a Nazi sympathizer is evident beyond a shadow of a doubt to anyone who can google.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    ConservativeCEO : What if your parents, grandparents, all your uncles and aunts, all of your parents’ inlaws, and all of their friends had all been killed in the holocaust? And what if all their homes were gone end everything that they ever owned, were gone, and there were not even any pictures or photographs left? I have met people like this. You are a very sheltered person, indeed, if you have not stirred around in the world even a little bit, and met people from backgrounds different than your own, people such as these who survived the holocaust, or who are the sons and daughters of holocaust survivors.Holocaust denial is actually just a way of being mean towards people whom you don’t like.

  • Francesca2

    GALILEO anyone?As Auberon Waugh noted in the Daily Telegraph in May 9, 1992:Now I read that a German court has fined David Irving, the eccentric British historian, the sum of £3400 for querying this established fact. Similar laws against querying it exist in France and Austria.Obviously, it does not influence the truth or falsehood of the original proposition by one jot that various governments are prepared to impose criminal sanctions against anyone who questions or denies it. But I cannot help asking myself what sort of truth it is that requires these sanctions.

  • yard80197

    yard80197 Author Profile Page:Germany has swung from one extreme to another, equally bad. What happened to free speech? The same people who are howling now were howling about why we needed free speech to malign the Muslims and their prophet, just a few months ago. Let’s use the same standards. Free speech was originally intended to permit one to politically criticise one’s government freely. In recent years people worldwide have demanded the freedom to abuse their neighbors for the most personal reasons such as religion, under the guise of “free speech”. So why is this different from the nasty things people were saying about Islam? Remember what Eli Wissel said, “first they came for the Jews and I was not a Jew, then they came for the Catholics and I was not a Catholic……” I believe we need to have a full and open investigation of the Holocaust, particularly who was responsible. I believe we will find many on the Nuremberg “Bench”, with as much blood on their hands as those who were tried!!!

  • dv1236

    Many god fearing peace loving jewish people died a horrible death, for the sins or the greed of a few. One or 6 million makes no difference,The question is for what reason????who is to blame?? in the name of those beautiful people so that they can rest in peace, not only the germans and jews, but the world must demand the truth.

  • nibogees

    The Holocaust was a crime against humanity. To deny it, denigrates any integrity or goodness you might think you possess.

  • onofrio

    Yard80197,You:Because this is a concerted effort to erase the attempted annihilation of an entire people, within living memory. “I believe we need to have a full and open investigation of the Holocaust, particularly who was responsible.”Why is it the Holocaust that requires *investigation*, as if thus far neglected? The truth is already out there, volume upon volume.You want to share the blame around? When has it ever been denied that representatives of just about every ethnic/national group in Europe aided and abetted the Nazis in their megapogrom? You want to prove Allied leaders as bad as the Nazis? Fine, but you don’t need to equivocate about the Shoah to do that. What’s your agenda?

  • aussiebarry

    Jewish world population 1939-17million

  • onofrio

    Pruning’s good for roses, it is said,A bishop feels that pruning’s goodBut facts, the bishop fails to know,

  • alpineapes

    Just another nail in the coffin of a morally bankrupt medieval cult. Making up rules and rewriting history is a catholic legacy. Being a heretic has never been so much fun. Now if only JPII would obey the “golden rule” for Latin Americans. His non-stop flight from Canada to Mexico in ’99, in an attempt to completely avoid the perverted child molesting priest fiasco, demonstrated his ability even then to stick his head in the sand, so with precident in hand, when it comes to Williamson, his head is stuck somewhere else, and I’ll bet the ranch it’ll rem ain there.

  • onofrio

    AussieBarry,”Jewish world population 1939-17millionAussieBarry, they were all wafted away on the fatuous pietudes of a bishop, and on the oral flatulence of Scooterlibre. Skulls, Bazza, we lack skulls-and-bones. BONE CENSUS! Revision time for the past! Whole epochs will have to be written off, since we are unable to account forensically for all who populated them.Farewell Antiquity, farewell Black Death, farewell Age of Reason. All just bone-lacking imagineering.

  • NWA10000

    The record can be set straight by presenting the film evidence on television-virtually non-stop- until denial is shown for what it is. Further, ever more desparate denials will be seen as just the hollow words that they are. If some are horrified by the truth they will be better off for it, or they can change the channel.

  • toben1

    1. How sad to see the Catholic leadership bending to Jewish pressure – so, don’t blame the Jews when they succeed in this bluff game where moral and intellectual courage is needed to cut free of a massive lie, i.e. that Germans exterminated Jews during World War Two.

  • Farnaz2

    Part IIMogilanski, Roman, ed. The Ghetto Anthology: A Comprehensive Chronicle of the Extermination of Jewry in Nazi Death Camps and Ghettos in Poland. Revised and Prepared for Publication by Benjamin Grey. Los Angeles, CA: American Congress of Jews from Poland and Survivors of Concentration Camps, 1985.Mokotoff, Gary. How to Document Victims and Locate Survivors of the Holocaust. Teaneck, NJ: Avotaynu, 1995.Mokotoff, Gary, and Sallyann Amdur Sack. Where Once We Walked: A Guide to the Jewish Communities Destroyed in the Holocaust. Teaneck, NJ: Avotaynu, 1991.Mokotoff, Gary. WOWW Companion: A Guide to the Communities Surrounding Central & Eastern European Towns. Teaneck, NJ: Avotaynu, 1995.Sable, Martin Howard. Holocaust Studies: A Directory and Bibliography of Bibliographies. Greenwood, FL: Penkevill Pub. Co., 1987.Shulman, William L., ed. Directory: Association of Holocaust Organizations. Bayside, NY: Holocaust Resource Center and Archives, Queensborough Community College, 1993- . Annual.Shulman, William L. Educational Resource Guide on the Holocaust: A Selected Bibliography and Audio-Visual Catalogue. Bayside, NY: Holocaust Resource Center and Archives, Queensborough Community College, 1993- .Annual.Szonyi, David M., ed. The Holocaust: An Annotated Bibliography and Resource Guide. New York: KTAV, 1985.Weinmann, Martin, ed. Das Nationalsozialistiche Lagersystem. 2d ed. Frankfurt am Main: Zweitausendeins, 1990. (English and German)Zentner, Christian, and Friedemann Bedürftig, eds. The Encyclopedia of the Third Reich. 2 vols. New York: Macmillan, 1991.

  • LucyLou1

    For starters, no-one knows how many died in the Holocaust. Hell, we don’t even know how many we’ve murdered in Iraq; the numbers vary by nearly two orders of magnitude (100), at least. So why is merely pointing out a natural and indisputable fact considered a crime? Why do the Jews, as a race, have such a need to brandish anyone who disagrees with them as anti-semitic? Why does the word anti-semitic even EXIST? Is it because normal people suddenly wake up one morning and say, “Gee, I’ve got nothing to do today. I think I’ll persecute some Jews for NO REASON?” If the Jews are so victimized, why are they the only ones? Why doesn’t the word “anti-Muslim” exist in our language? Why is the US so ignorant of Zionism and world history that it doesn’t realize that the Balfour Declaration (1917) and the creation of Israel and it’s racist debauchery came BEFORE Hitler? Why is our media so silent about the holocaust of millions of Muslims at the hands of the judeo-christian neocons, when the rest of the world is screaming in justifiable rage? I’m not expecting the fundamentalist nutjobs on this page to grow a cranium any time soon, but maybe if the guy who forged the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” hadn’t turned out to be such a prophet, the Chosen Ones wouldn’t have such an overwhelming need for all their blatant and racist propaganda.

  • Farnaz2

    Primary Source Documents on the Shoah* Gassing Vans. Nazi testimony about gassing vans.

  • Farnaz2

    Primary Source Documents on Murder and Torture during the Holocaust * Nazi Statements on “The Jewish Question.” Excerpts from Hitler, Himmler, and others on the destruction of European Jewry.

  • Farnaz2

    Michael Santomauro:”It is my position that the veracity of Holocaust assertions should be determined in the marketplace of scholarly discourse” A44070: The Conspiracy of the Twentieth Century by Rudolf Vrba80629: A Mengele Experiment by Gene Church; Paperback; $12.95 (Special Order)Act and Idea in the Nazi Genocide by Berel LangAdmitting the Holocaust: Collected Essays by Lawrence L. LangerThe Abandonment of the Jews: America and the Holocaust 1941-1945 by David S. Wyman, Elie WieselAfter Auschwitz : History, Theology, and Contemporary Judaism (Johns Hopkins Jewish Studies) by Richard L. RubensteinAfter Survival: One Man’s Mission in the Cause of Memory by Leon Zelman, Armin ThurnherAgainst All Hope : Resistance in the Nazi Concentration Camps 1938-1945 by Hermann Langbein, Harry Zohn (Translator) (Paperback)Against All Hope : Resistance in the Nazi Concentration Camps 1938-1945 by Hermann Langbein, Harry Zohn (Translator) (Hardcover)Agony of Survival by Albert HutlerAlicia: My Story by Alicia Appleman-Jurman, Hurman Alicia ApplemanAll but My Life by Gerda Weissmann Klein, Barbara Rosenblatt (Narrator), Gerda Weissman Klein (Audio cassette)All but My Life by Gerda Weissmann Klein, Gerda Klein WeissmannAll Rivers Run to the Sea: Memoirs by Elie Wiesel, Jon RothschildThe Altruistic Personality: Rescuers of Jews in Nazi Europe by Samuel P. Oliner, Pearl M. OlinerAnatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp by Yisrael Gutman (Editor), Michael Berenbaum (Editor), Franciszek PiperAnne Frank: Diary of a Young Girl/Cassettes by Anne FrankAnne Frank: The Diary of a Young Girl by Anne Frank, B.M. Mooyaart (Translator)Anne Frank and After : Dutch Holocaust Literature in a Historical Perspective (Dutch Holocaust Literature in Historical Perspective) by D. Van Galen Last, Rolf Wolfswinkel, Dick Van Galen LastAssasins of Memory, Pierre Vidal-Naquet, Columbia University Press, New York (1992)At the Minds Limit: Contemplations by a Survivor on Auschwitz and Its Realities by Jean Amery, Stella P. Rosenfeld, Sidney RosenfeldAtlas of the Holocaust by Martin GilbertAuschwitz: 1270 to the Present by Deborah Dwork, Robert Jan Van Pelt, Robert Jan Van Pelt [Recommended]Auschwitz: A Doctor’s Eyewitness Account by Miklos, Dr. Nyiszli, Richard Seaver, Tibere KramerAuschwitz: A History in Photographs by Teresa Swiebocka (Translator), Jonathan Webber, Connie Wilsack (Editor), Teresa Swilebocka, Jonathan WeberAuschwitz: True Tales from a Grotesque Land by Sara Nomberg-Przuytyk, Przytyk Sara Nomberg, Eli Pfefferkorn, Roslyn HirschAuschwitz and the Allies by Martin GilbertAuschwitz Chronicle: 1939-1945 by Danuta Czech, Walter Laqueur

  • Farnaz2

    Michael Santomauro:”It is my position that the veracity of Holocaust assertions should be determined in the marketplace of scholarly discourse”The Cage by Ruth Minsky Sender (Editor), Jim Coon (Illustrator), Ellen Krieger [Holocaust memoirs]Can It Happen Again? : Chronicles of the Holocaust by Roselle K. Chartock, Jack Spencer (Editor)Can We Avoid The Next Holocaust by Yisrayl HawkinsCaraseu : A Holocaust Remembrance by Martin H. Lax, Michael B. Lax [Holocaust memoirs]Carved in Stone : Holocaust Years – A Boy’s Tale by Manny Drukier [Holocaust memoirs]Castles Burning : A Child’s Life in War by Magda Denes [Holocaust memoirs]Caught by History: Holocaust Effects in Contemporary Art, Literature, and Theory by Ernst Van AlphenChild of the Ghetto: Coming of Age in Fascist Italy : 1926-1946 : A Memoir by Edda Servi MacHlinChild of the Holocaust by Jack Kuper [Memoir]Children and Play in the Holocaust: Games Among the Shadows by George EisenChildren in the Holocaust and World War II: Their Secret Diaries by Laurel Holliday (Editor)Children of Job: American Second-Generation Witnesses to the Holocaust (Suny Series in Modern Jewish Literature and Culture) by Alan L. Berger (Paperback)Children of Job: American Second-Generation Witnesses to the Holocaust (Suny Series in Modern Jewish Literature and Culture) by Alan L. Berger (Hardcover)Children of the Holocaust (Jewish Lives) by Arnost Lustig, George Theiner, Jeanne NemcovaChildren of the Holocaust: Conversations With Sons and Daughters of Survivors by Helen EpsteinChildren of Zion (Jewish Lives-Memoir) by Henryk Grynberg, Jacqueline Mitchell (Translator)The Children We Remember: Photographs from the Archives of Yad Vashem, the Holocaust Martyrs’ and Heroes’ Remembrance Authority, Jerusalem, Israel by Chana Byers AbellsChildren With a Star: Jewish Youth in Nazi Europe by Deborah Dwork, Deborah DwrokChristian Resistance to Anti Semitism : Memories from 1940 1944 by Henri De Lubac, Elizabeth Englund (Translator)The Chronicle of the Lodz Ghetto, 1941-1944 by Lucjan Dobroszycki (Editor)Cleansing the Fatherland : Nazi Medicine and Racial Hygiene by Gotz Aly, Peter Chroust, Christian Pross, Belinda Cooper (Translator), Aly Gotz

  • Farnaz2

    LucyLou1:Why does the word anti-semitic even EXIST? Is it because normal people suddenly wake up one morning and say, “Gee, I’ve got nothing to do today. I think I’ll persecute some Jews for NO REASON?” If the Jews are so victimized, why are they the only ones?The word “anti-semitic” was coined by one of your pre-nazi co-religionists, Wilhelm Marr (1819–1904). Like you, Marr considered Jews to be a “race” and used the term anti-Semitic (coined in 1879, I believe), to represent a positive position, much as the KKK uses terms to support its anti-Black racism.Prior to this, the word was used by linguists to refer to language groups.With the overt racialization, scientising of identity introduced by the EuroChristians, Aryan, slavic races, in the modern sense of the terms came into widespread use among the EuroChristians.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    LucyLouWhy are you so bent out of shape? Why are you are so proud of your ignorance and mean-spirited spitefulness?Unlike Farnaz, I do not consider it my business to force knowledge into your empty ignorant brain. It is up to you to pick up a book and read it, and I urge you to do so.But if you do not, then that is your choice.

  • Farnaz2

    TO ALL:For all seeking scholarship on the Holocaust, and other acts of Persecution against Jews (I include, of course, Michael Santomauro, LucyLou1)Soon to come: Books on the EuroChristian perpetrated Shoah, alphabetically listed from D – Z, then fill in with some missing texts, scholarly articles, etc.Next, I shall, for you and LucyLou1 provide a bibliography of Christian (Catholic, et al) persecutions of Jews from the Middle Ages to the present.Other requests, questions by scholarly seekers, regarding nonChristian persecutions of Jews, particular Christian persecutions, etc., will be taken on a first-served basis.

  • Farnaz2

    ALLMeant to write:Other requests, questions by scholarly seekers, regarding nonChristian persecutions of Jews, particular Christian persecutions, etc., will be taken on a first-come, first-served basis.

  • RudeIsraeli

    We always hear about what was reportedly done to Jews- but never do we hear about what they may have done when they found themselves in positions of power – specifically- their role in the rise of extreme left politics in Russia (pre-October 1917 and after)- and their role in staffing the upper echelons of the bureaucracy during the worst phases of the Leninist takeover.Do we ever get to hear of their influence in the puppet governments set up after the war (Hungary, Poland, Romania)= where their numbers and influence appear to have been significant?Have any Jewish organizations ever apologized for the role many radical leftist Jews apparently played in support of the hideous apparatus of repression in the USSR and post-war Eastern Europe?Ask any Russian, Pole, Hungarian, Romanian and you may get an earful.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    LucyLouWhy are you so bent out of shape? Why are you are so proud of your ignorance and mean-spirited spitefulness?Unlike Farnaz, I do not consider it my business to force knowledge into your empty ignorant brain. It is up to you to pick up a book and read it, and I urge you to do so.But if you do not, then that is your choice.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    RudeIsraeli : What’s your point? We hear alot of things, some true and some not true, about alot of things. So what? Why do you feel responsible for justifying the holoaust? What’s it to you, to disprove something that we all know happened?What is your ulterior motivation?Bush is gone; the Republicans are out.We have a black President.Give it a rest.

  • Farnaz2

    Timeline of EuroChristian anti-Jewish Racism1939 Anti-Jewish laws introduced in the Protectorate (Czechoslovakia).

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    For all the people who hate the Jews and who hate Israel and who hate Zionism:Wasn’t Zionism the movement for the return of the Jews to Palestine?I say “was” because the goals of Zionism have already been accompllished long ago. Zionism is an “ism” of the nineteenth century.Israel has been a state for over 60 years. There is no Zionism anymore; it is all done and finished with, and is now consigned to history books, for anyone who cares to read about it.The struggle between the Pelestineans and the Israeli’s is not a crisis. It is merely commonplace and ordinary, the way things have always been all of my life, as far back as I can remember.After 60 years, Israel has calcified into the landscape of the currently accepted world order. That is how it is. Israel is no more likey to be destroyed than is France or Brazil, or Indonesia; it simply is too powerful, well-connected, and entrenched to be gotten rid of. Holocaust denyers hate Israel and hate Jews. They cannot accept real life, as it really is.That is their unhappy problem.

  • Farnaz2

    EuroChristian Timeline of Anti-Jewish Racism1917-21 Pogroms in the Ukraine and Poland. 1) Pogroms by retreating Red Army from the Ukraine (spring, 1918), before the German army. 2) Pogroms by the retreating Ukraine army under the command of Simon Petlyura, resulting in the deaths of over 8,000Jews. 3)Pogroms by the counter revolutionary “White Army” under the command of General A.I. Denikin (fall, 1919) in which about 1,500 Jews were killed. 4) Pogroms by the “White Army” in Siberia and Mongolia (1919). 5) Pogroms by anti-Soviet bands in the Ukraine (1920-21), in which thousands of Jews were killed.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Why do holocaust deniers tend to be more dull-witted, and well, let’s just speak plainly, and say it: dumb?And people who are aware of the holocaust as somethng that really happened, why do they tend to be more intelligent and better educated?I guess it is some kind of conspiracy of knowledge to take over the world and brain-wash everyone.Kind of weird, isn’t it?

  • Farnaz2

    Timeline Anti-Jewish Racism continued 1474 Marranos of Segovia, Spain, massacred.

  • Farnaz2

    Timeline of Antisemitism1413-14 Disputation of Tortosa (Spain). The most important and longest of the Christian-Jewish disputations the consequence of which was mass conversions and intensified persecutions.

  • Farnaz2

    Timeline of Antisemitism(Perhaps, of special interest to Rudisraeli, Polish Catholic–per his post)

  • Farnaz2

    Timeline of Antisemitism, perhaps of special interest to rudeisraeli (Polish Catholic), per his post1096-99 First Crusade. Crusaders massacre the Jews of the Rhineland (1096).

  • Farnaz2

    Timeline of antisemitism, perhaps of special interest to rudeisraeli, Catholic Pole200 Tertullian, Church Father, writes his anti-Jewish polemic in Latin Adversus Judaeos.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    FarnazThe people whom you are trying to teach are basically spoiled bratts, throwing spitballs, who are proud of their ignorance and indifference to knowledge. The evidence is freely available to anyone who cares to look at it. But you cannot force them to look at it, for they will merely shut their eyes, so as not to see it, and you cannot pry their eyes open against their own will.So, these are the willfully ignorant, beyond the touch of reason, and beyond your ability to teach, help, or convince. I say, cut your losses with them, and use your energy to a better purpose.

  • Farnaz2

    DITLD:Thanks for your post. I think, though, that there may be some who genuinely would like some information. Then, too, some people become bigots out of defensiveness, fear, etc. That doesn’t justify their racism, of course, but among them, there are those who can learn.As well, there are Jews, particularly, young Jews who read these threads. I know this to be a fact. A Study Group to which I belong, whose members are Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, B’hai, and, as of, next week, Sikh, has been monitoring this thread, and a couple of them are now using it in one or two of their classes. It is vitally important that Jews, particularly young Jews, see Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, et al, combating anti-Jewish racism. Of course, it injures us, but it also injures those Christians, Muslims, et al, who practice it. It destroys their souls and the souls of their children.There are other issues. Knowledge of the history of antisemitism, quite present today, as this thread shows, is appallingly scant. Most people know there was a Holocaust and an Inquisition. They know nothing else. They see the Holocaust as a historical abberation that involved Germany, not as an outgrowth of history that involved all of European Christendom. They know nothing of verbal and physcially violent antisemitism in Europe, the US, and elsewhere as it manifests today.Regards,

  • timmy2

    I’m not sure why Shoah deniers should be humored at all. I really think that there are as many cases of denial by retardation as there are cases of denial due to antisemitism. I see both groups as marginalized groups not worth giving the time of day to. It’s a shame that forums like this give them a platform. It is a sad commentary on our society that people like this exist and come out of the woodwork when such a question is posted. Religion is obviously the main culprit, which is one of the many reasons I am so critical of religion. It is a divider. Spirituality is not, because it is individual, but religion is because if forms groups around a set in stone doctrine. All of the Shoah deniers on this thread are driven by religion it seems. Belief in a supreme deity is an awful thing, especially when the belief is accompanied by KNOWING what God wants. All people who make this claim should seek therapy and read a book or two. They should also take responsibility for the horrors of antisemitism. This would include Christians, Muslims, and Jews who believe that the ten commandments are from the creator of the universe.The false divisions between the one human race are: religion, racism, ethnicity, sexism, and nationalism. The sooner we dump these false divisions and see all humans as equal, and learn to work together for our common good, the better. But people don’t just need to give up seeing people of other ethnicities or races as “their people”, they also need to give up seeing people of their own ethnicity or race, as “my people”. The lesson to be learned from genocide is that there is really no such thing as “our people” “their people” “my people”. Or at least there should not be. There is just people. It’s high time we shook our archaic tribalism. All of us.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    FarnazNot to get into a big thing about this, but I can see your point, and go ahead all you want to try and educate people about this subject.However…many if not most people know little or nothing about history, even though it is taught in schools, and even though historical information is freely available and easy to access.Jay Leno has a segment on his show called “Jay Walking” in which he stops people on the street and asks them ordinary questions.On a college campus, he asked if people had ever heard of Hitler. Most of them had. Then he asked who Hitler was, what did he do? From college students on a college campus, blank stares. He asked what was Hitler’s first name. The reply one young many gave tentatively was, “George?” So, he and Jay Leno agreed that the mad German dictator was named “George Hitler.” Your strategy is to try end educate them, and maybe someone will unintentionally be moved to try and find out the truth. My strategy is to mock them, laugh at them, poke fun them,belittle them, make them feel self-conscious and inferiior, and stupid, which is what they are. When they gripe about their freedom of speech, then that is a good sign. What they really mean is that they do not like to be disrespected for spreading lies.But, I guess that is their problem, isn’t it?

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Mono 1Take you sick and demented religous fanaticism away from here, and go practice your pigeon English elsewhere.The Nazis who accomplished the holocaust did not have the concept of JuChristian, but I think they did harbor the concept of JuMoslem.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Maybe it would help your Hitler-loving propoganda if you would learn English.

  • No5m

    What’s that about removing the stone from your own eye first? Oh, wait thats Christian. Sorry.

  • asizk

    Absloutely mind boggling for jews to continue recycling a relic of the past,the so called holocaust of the jews,just to distract from the on going real holocaust of the Palestinians by the jews especially their savagry and barbarities in Gaza which the whole world witnessed and condemened.jews should stop palying the role of the victim-it is just outdated and no one belives it any longer.Let us stop the holocaust of the Palestinians-NOW.

  • FreeSpeech3

    The first issue here is a matter of free speech. Williamson should have the right to express an opinion about what he believes. This is a necessary right in a democracy to expose the truth. He and the Catholic Church should not be forced into recanting it because it does not meet some people’s political objectives. Everyone should ask by whom & why has this extreme pressure been brought to bear. In my experience, this overreaction & coersion is typical of corrupt behaviour.

  • Farnaz2

    DITLD:Yours is a good strategy and may well have a better chance of working than mine. (Jay Walking doesn’t bode well for my efforts!) As someone on this thread wrote, and as a number of the comments clearly demonstrate, Holocaust denial is simply code for antisemtism, and as the timeline I posted indicates antisemitism is the most global and intransigent racism. It began two thousand years ago, and has been diligently spread by Europeans to the rest of the world.Indeed, for many years we have antisemitsm in countries in which people who’ve never seen Jews, know nothing of them, are virulent racists. Still, I hope that there may be a few people whom a bibliography, timelines, knowledge may help.As for the rest, as has been evident not only on this thread but on this blog, your strategy is probably the only one that can have any effect. For me, it is that young people of all faiths and ethnicities, children, survivors of the Shoah and other persecutions, anti-racist Christians, Muslims, Hindus, et al–humanity–see people taking a stand against racism. And that is what you have done, DITLD.Regards,

  • Farnaz2

    asizk, Muslim TurkAbsloutely mind boggling for jews to continue recycling a relic of the past,the so called holocaust of the jews,just to distract from the on going real holocaust of the Palestinians by the jews especially their savagry and barbarities in Gaza which the whole world witnessed and condemened.You prefer to feed off there suffering. You are trying to distract attention from THE ONGOING TURKISH SLAUGHTER OF KURDS.YOU WANT THE WORLD TO FORGET THE TURKISH GENOCIDE OF THE ARMENIANS. THE ARMENIANS HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN AND NEITER HAVE WE.OH AND AZISK? KILL ANY CYPRIOTS LATELY?

  • Farnaz2

    FreeSpeech3:How’s about you and Asizk going to Turkey together? There’s a flight out in two hours. That way you and your fellow racist swamp thing could go out hunting and killing Kurds together! You could oppress Cypriots and explain how the Armenian genocide never happened!!!YOu could deny the Holocaust, too, of course! What fun for racist swamp things!

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    FreeSpeech3 : Who is interfering with your free speech? You are speaking aren’t you? The one who hates free speech is the Pope. The Pope is the one who insists that his word is to be obeyed, and if you do not, you will be ex-communicated, and cast into Hell, as though that would influence any intelligent person.Your problem is not with freedom of speech. Your problem is that you do not want people to belittle you for spreading lies. But, I am afraid there is nothing that you can do about that. They have not yet passed a law anywhere that makes it illegal to mock fools.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Mono1Regarding you embarrassing, and child-like attempt at English, and your simultaneious pretentiousness at being an “intellect,” do not worry or bother about your limited language skills. After all, you speak the universal language: HATE !

  • theosnyder

    The on going incompetence of the leadership of my church is mindboggling and embarassing. The very good and hard work of Catholic-Jewish dialogie that has happened everywhere over the last 40+ years is threatened (but I think will survive because the church is bigger and better than the Vatican). It bothers me hugely that far right wing schismatics are courted for reconciliation with no pre-conditions. Meanwhile progressive Catholics are –in effect– shown the door. Coupled with the worldwide sexual abuse crisis, Benedicts continuing in ability to credibly function as a public figure has about ended any hope that he can play a moral leadership role during a time of war, environmental crisis and economic disaster.

  • kjohnson3

    Daniel…den,I have to agree that Mono 1 is a sick puppy and a religious fanatic.But I do want to suggest to you that, if you’re going to indulge your own inner racist, you at least get the terminology right.It’s “pidgin,” not “pigeon,” English.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    kjohnson3Call me a racist all you want. Nit-pick at my spelling all you want. I suppose that proves what a smart girl you are.It does not change anything, though, nor move the argument any, does it?This is all you have to prove that the holocaust did not happen?I am actually a little suprised that my severe criticims of the holocaust-denying posts have met with almost no reaction from anybody.When I was defending gay rights earlier in this cycle, the homophobics of the world screamed bloody murder, and called me every dirty, nasty, and ugly name in the book.Why do the holocaust deniers grow mute when faced with criticism? Are they afraid of looking stupid? Is that what you are afraid of KJohnson3? Are you afraid of looking stupid? You should be afraid of that. It is a very real threat, looking stupid, that is.And by the way, the name that I use here is not Daniel dot dot dot den; it is Daniel in the Lion’s Den.

  • Garak

    If denying the Nazi genocide of the Jews makes one an anti-semite, then denying the Armenian Holocaust makes one a racist.As in Israeli President Shimon Peres, when he said “What happened to the Armenians was a tragedy, not a genocide.”And unless Mr. Rosensaft acknowledges the Armenian Holocaust, he too is a racist.

  • Garak

    MichaelNJ: Foxman admitted the Armenian Holocaust only under pressure from other Jews who saw through his shameless hyprocrisy. The Israeli gov’t has never officially admitted it. As for the Pope, he is trying to avoid confrontation with the Lefebrevists in the Church. There is no reason to press him over that issue, nore is there is any reason for anyone else to seek such a confrontation.Right? What’s good for Israel is good for the rest of us, right?

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    GarakIf it happened, it happened. Your logic-gymnastics is irrelevant to the facts.You are going to have to do better than that to prove the holocaust never happened.

  • DanielintheLionsDen

    Alot of holocaust deniers point to the war in Gaza, and refer to that as a holocaust, comparable to the premeditated and planned extermination of six millions Jews in Nazi Germinay, and millions more that the Nazis considered “undesirable.”But if you compare the war in Gaza to the other major wars going on this very minute in the world today, the war in Iraq, the war in Afghaninstan, the war in the Congo, the war in the Sudan, the war in Ceylon, the war in Somalia, (have I missed any, there are so many, it is hard to keep track) then the war in Gaza is hardly a war at all; it is just a little drip, drip, drip of suffering humanity, running down to join the rivulets and creeks from all the other wars; it barely counts at all.I am not trying to be insenstive to the people of Gaza. The world has empathy for the people of Gaza. But not enough to help them. Just enugh to worry about them, and say, “what a shame.” And why? Because each and every country has their own beef with their own neighbors; the folly of the Israeli-Palestinean struggle is their business; throwing bombs, shooting guns, launching missiles, air-strikes, check-points, suicide bombers, tit-for-tat, it is all part of life there. That is how they live and die. They do not stand out at all, against the background of all the other wars.

  • Farnaz2

    Hi DITLD,Just FYI: Garak is an out and out swamp thing racist, who has been taken to task for his out and out bigotry many times by many bloggers. Ditto Asizk, the Muslim Turk, Mono1, KJohson3 (right about pigeon, since she is one herself) The Holocaust is not the real issue for them. They are simple swamp thing racists.Unlike the racist Muslim Turk, Asizk, Garak is a double coward racist swamp thing, who never reveals its own ethnicity. Kjohnson3 is a well-known racist, who like, the Muslim Turk swampt thing racist Asizk has the decency to reveal its Christian ethnicity.

  • Farnaz2

    -When Asiz, Muslim Turk, returns to his country to kill Kurds, torture Cypriots, deny the Armenian Genocide, you can go to!!! There’s a flight in four hours so start packing!! Then you can move on to Hebron, and do some HONOR KILLING!!! Yay!!When you’ve finished how about some female genital mutilation in Egypt? They love that, and they’ll be delighted to listen do your Ahoah denying swamp talk all day long!!!No one wants you here, so why not go where they’ll just love you to death? To death.Au revoir, Swamp things.

  • Farnaz2

    Hello, Onofrio,We’ve got a few (well-known) racist swamp things for you to add to your list, I’m afraid.Regards,

  • kjohnson3

    Daniel…den,Wow. And I thought you were one of the more reasonable voices on this board.Let me answer your flames point-by-point; my responses are in CAPS:”Call me a racist all you want. Nit-pick at my spelling all you want. I suppose that proves what a smart girl you are.”WHAT MAKES YOU THINK I’M A GIRL, SMART OR OTHERWISE?”This is all you have to prove that the holocaust did not happen?”I’M NOT TRYING TO PROVE THAT THE HOLOCAUST DID NOT HAPPEN. I’M ONE OF YOU GUYS. I BELIEVE THE FACTS SHOW INDISPUTABLY THAT THE HOLOCAUST DID HAPPEN. WHERE IN MY POST DID YOU SEE ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY?”I am actually a little suprised that my severe criticims of the holocaust-denying posts have met with almost no reaction from anybody.”THIS MAY BE BECAUSE YOU’RE DOING IT SO WELL THAT THE REST OF US DON’T NEED TO SAY ANYTHING.”When I was defending gay rights earlier in this cycle, the homophobics of the world screamed bloody murder, and called me every dirty, nasty, and ugly name in the book.”AND THIS HAS WHAT TO DO WITH THE CURRENT TOPIC UNDER DISCUSSION? SEEMS LIKE YOU’RE MAKING IT ALL ABOUT YOU. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT ALL THE HOMOPHOBES IN THE WORLD KNOW WHO YOU ARE? OR CARE?”Why do the holocaust deniers grow mute when faced with criticism? Are they afraid of looking stupid? Is that what you are afraid of KJohnson3? Are you afraid of looking stupid? You should be afraid of that. It is a very real threat, looking stupid, that is.”SUFFICE IT TO SAY, I’M NOT THE ONE LOOKING STUPID HERE. I TOOK YOU TO TASK FOR WRAPPING YOURSELF IN A BLANKET OF MORALITY AND THEN USING A RACIST-DERIVED TERM TO CALL OUT SOMEONE ELSE. IN OTHER WORDS, HYPOCRISY. (THE SPELLING LESSON WAS JUST A BONUS.) YOU, IN TURN, DECIDED THAT, IF I WAS OPPOSING YOU, THEN I MUST BE A HOLOCAUST DENIER. THAT, IN ITSELF, DEMONSTRATES THAT YOU THINK A LITTLE TOO HIGHLY OF YOUR ROLE IN THE WORLD.”And by the way, the name that I use here is not Daniel dot dot dot den; it is Daniel in the Lion’s Den.”ACTUALLY, IF YOU WANT TO NIT-PICK, THE NAME YOU USE IS: DANIELINTHELIONSDEN (NO SPACES, NO APOSTROPHE).PEACE, DANIELINTHELIONSDEN. WE’RE ON THE SAME SIDE.

  • timmy2

    Farnaz says:”Unlike the racist Muslim Turk, Asizk, Garak is a double coward racist swamp thing, who never reveals its own ethnicity”And it is very important that one reveal their ethnicity isn’t it Farnaz. FARNAZ SPEWS: “Kjohnson3 is a well-known racist, who like, the Muslim Turk swampt thing racist Asizk has the decency to reveal its Christian ethnicity”Again, look how important it is to Farnaz, the racist, that people reveal their ethnicity. Give them all armbands I say. Then Farnaz will be able to deal with them accordingly. Farnaz is so ethnicity obsessed, she now refers to the religion of Christianity as an ethnicity. There could be no bigger racist swamp thing on this thread than Farnaz the ethnicity obsessed bigot. Also, Shoah deniers are either retarded or racist and don’t deserve the time of day given to them. And neither does Farnaz, the racist swamp thing bigot, obsessed with knowing people’s ethnicity. Their ideas and opinions are not enough. She needs to know their ethnicity dammit! Stop hiding your ethnicity bloggers or Farnaz will have to fit you all with armbands.

  • Farnaz2

    Hello, Onofrio,Check out the lonesome, confused, friend-deprived timmy of Italian-Catholic dissent. You know the one, the Canadian who lives off the tortured backs of the aborigianal Canadian peoples, on whom I pasted a lengthy bibliography? Remember? The anti-Jewish racist, homophobic Timmy2?Well, here it is again, the Timmy2. Can you see why there’s no point in engaging it? It’s a Farnaz-obsessed being, poor thing. Maybe every Jewish woman he tried to date headed for the hills, although my guess is every one he tried to date–male or female–headed in the same direction–A W A Y.Okay to comment third-personally, but engaging it just feeds its ugly flame.Regards,

  • kjohnson3

    “Kjohnson3 is a well-known racist, who like, the Muslim Turk swampt thing racist Asizk has the decency to reveal its Christian ethnicity.”Farnaz2,Why are you saying this about me? I’m not, and never have been, a racist. I’ve never posted a racist comment here or on any other board. I recognize the superiority of no race, ethnicity, religion, gender, or sexual preference. And, I’m not Christian.Despite Danielinthelionsden’s misrepresentation, for which I’ve held him accountable, I do not deny that the Holocaust occurred. I would be deeply ashamed to say such a thing — and NEVER have.So, I don’t know where you get your misinformation, but please stop distorting my views and impeaching my character.You’re simply WRONG.

  • Farnaz2

    Onorfrio,Whoops! Meant to write Catholic Itlaian descent!Although I strongly suspect that if suggested to any Italian that s/he had kinship with timmy, s/he’d surely dissent. (Who wouldn’t?)

  • justillthen

    Hello kjohnson3:”Farnaz2,Why are you saying this about me? I’m not, and never have been, a racist.” “You’re simply WRONG.”Do not worry, kjohnson3. You are simply right. Farnaz is on a Crusade, like some of the others in here, and so often mirrors that which they hate. She spews hatred, claiming that it belongs to others, even as it emanates from inside her. Everyone with views that are at even slight odds with her own on these topics she brands lickety-split as a foul and virulent racist antisemite. I understand that you need to spell antisemite in a particular way, or, in her book, ta-dah!, you are a racist. So be careful with that one. No need to be labeled a jew-hating racist DOLT, if it is avoidable. Ahhh, but it is not, in here.Particularly when it is the racists that are doing most of the labeling.Best.

  • Farnaz2

    KJohnson3:If I was in error, please forgive me. Thus far, three bloggers–yours truly, Onofrio, Danielinthelion’sden–have been contending with the antisemites to post here. Some, like Justilthen and timmy2 are regulars. Not that all three of us actually address directly all the time–It would get to tedious. Sometimes, we just comment in the third person.Ideally, these two and their racist compadres will return soon to the Primordial ooze or join Azisk in Turkey.Again, my apologies if I mistook you.Farnaz

  • Farnaz2

    Kjohnson3:Watch these two pathetic racists–Justilthen and timmy2. After having shown themselves to be racists through the content of their posts, they were so labled by three bloggers. Yet, both of them single me out, and, indeed, timmy2 is Farnaz-obsessed. Justilthen is on the way to the same illness.Is’t because I’m the only Jew of the three who have explicity opposed their racism? Duh. Is it because I’m the only woman? Duh, again.What’s most amusing is that these two long-time culprits then blame the victim for standing up to them. Hmmm…where have I seen blaming the victim before? Swastikas, anyone?

  • aussiebarry

    Farnazz and Danieletc, Antisemitism is a form of intollerance, you cannot fight intollerance with intollerance, foamy mouthed attacks on people will never change their minds or bring others to your point of view.The idea of remembering the Holocaust is to try to avoid similar attrocities in the future. We do that by opposing any idea that anyone is better, or more worthy, than anyone else because of their religion, race,intellectual ability on any other very minor variations of Homo Sapien that there might be. Seeing as you need to know, I would not have a clue to the various races etc. that may be mixed in my DNA over the centuries but my hereditry is Polish Jew , Irish Catholic AngloAustralian, my politics is Green and my religion is non existant.

  • justillthen

    Farnaz, I’d hate for you to miss it.I do not slight you in the least your quest to stand up against “racism”, for the young and old alike. I just think you need better judgement of who is the enemy, and better sights on your galil, so you may see who you are shooting at. Umm, first one would definately be the priority.Loose cannons are never desireable in company. And you show position too offhanded, giving away your own prejudices in the process.It has NOTHING to do with you being a woman, and I made the assumption that Onofrio was a jew himself. That or in love with you. These things matter not in the least to me. It was just that you were more insulting and offensive to me, and far more the fundamentalist than Onofrio. He I could find a place to disagree. You have too much anger and prejudice to hope to find a foothold toward commonality.Nay nay, I go too far there. There is always hope, Farnaz. I wish for you greater peace.

  • Farnaz2

    aussiebarry:Hi aussiebarry! I beg to disagree with you about intolerance. Being intolerant of it is an extremely effective stratege; I know, it isn’t the first time I’ve used it. Assaults against racism are most effective, of course, when they are comprehensive, applying an array of strategies including systematic indoctrination.Although we have a long way to go in the US with respect to anti-Black racism the fact that it was fought on an array of fronts, using an array of strategies is IMHO the most important reason for what success we’ve had.The sort of battle fought against anti-Black racism has yet to be waged against antisemitism. It’s just starting….

  • timmy2

    Farnaz, the ethnicity obsessed racist, has show her obsession with ethnicity once again by assuming that Timmy is of Italian catholic descent, just because he used it as one example of many. She has now labeled me an Italian catholic. But she is intent on knowing every poster’s ethnicity so she can arm her cannons appropriately. Well let’s give her what she so desperately seems to need from her opponents on this thread. Timmy’s true ethnic background: Aryan, British/GermanWhatever those things mean to you, they mean nothing to me. Go ahead, insult Aryans, Brits, Germans, Canadians. I associate myself with none of those groups as “my people”. I am beyond that kind of archaic thought. But you keep calling people cowards because they only reveal their thoughts and opinions and won’t reveal their ethnicity to you. I think everyone here can clearly see who the racist is. Well, Onofrio can not see it, but then again Onofrio has been banned from this thread for being an offensive poster. Shocking that Onofrio went before Farnaz but surely her expulsion will be forth coming if she continues to demand to know the ethnicity of the other posters like the obsessed with ethnicity racist swamp thing that she is.

  • timmy2

    Ethnicity and race obsessed Farnaz says:”The sort of battle fought against anti-Black racism has yet to be waged against antisemitism. It’s just starting….”Hint, if you’re looking to emulate it. They didn’t call it “anti-black racism”.

  • Farnaz2

    “Timmy’s true ethnic background: Aryan, British/German”"Aryan” is it. The poor slob. The poor, pathetic slob.

  • Farnaz2

    They didn’t call it “anti-black racism”. Yes. They do. That’s what they call it. Not all racists are racist in the same way. Most antisemites are anti-black racists as well, however. And I can’t imagine any black person within one hundred thousand feet of timmy2′s Aryan self, no matter what it says. This brown person would sooner have dinner with a wild boar.Funny, how when we were discussing the hideous genocidal persecutions of Canada’s aboriginal people, First Nation people, which continues apace, timmy2 denied being Anglo. Funny, like a crutch.

  • timmy2

    Timmy said: “Timmy’s true ethnic background: Aryan, British/German”Then Farnaz said: “Aryan” is it. The poor slob. The poor, pathetic slob.Could there be any more definitive proof that Farnaz is the biggest racist of all. And how pathetic of her fall into the trap. All I had to do was name my ethnicity, as per her demands from everyone posting here, and she revealed herself (like she hasn’t done that a million times already) to be most obvious of racists. But racism from Jew to Aryan is perfectly acceptable to Farnaz. It’s all part of the revenge for “her people”. All Aryans must pay for what happened to “her people”. And so the cycle of archaic behavior continues. Bravo Farnaz. Queen racist.

  • timmy2

    Farnaz continues to make blatant racist statements: Look what she said now:God bless you Farnaz. You are making my point that you are the racist for me. Just delicious. Keep it up.YOU: “Funny, how when we were discussing the hideous genocidal persecutions of Canada’s aboriginal people, First Nation people, which continues apace, timmy2 denied being Anglo”WE were not discussing it. You, FROM YOUR MANHATTAN PAD, were being a demagogue with your maniacal cut and paste rant about something awful that has happened that I bear no more responsibility for than do you. But you thinking that because I live in Canada I am responsible for everything Canada does is more revelation of your blatant racism. And I would never deny my racial and ethnic background, I simply deny any meaning to it. That’s called being anti-racist. You should give it a try sometime.

  • Farnaz2

    “Timmy’s true ethnic background: Aryan, British/German”"Aryan” is it. The poor slob. The poor, pathetic slob.

  • Farnaz2

    “Timmy’s true ethnic background: Aryan, British/German”"Aryan” is it. The poor slob. The poor, pathetic slob.

  • timmy2

    Yes Farnaz, admitted racist. Aryans are poor pathetic slobs.

  • Farnaz2

    timmy mistakenly thinks I live in a “MANHATTAN PAD”

  • aussiebarry

    Timmy, Aryan is a racist term, it has lost all its old meaning, so with all due respect , you are either very naive or racist. As it happens Farnaz is aryan ie. one who speaks iranian

  • Farnaz2

    aussiebarry:Timmy, Aryan is a racist term, it has lost all its old meaning, so with all due respect , you are either very naive or racist. As it happens Farnaz is aryan ie. one who speaks iranianAw, shucks, AussieBarry, I was saving that last part.Farnaz :]

  • Farnaz2

    AussieBarry:Timmy2 and Justilthen are died in the wool, as it were. If you look at Susan Jacoby’s last thread, and, perhaps, one or two before for timmy2, you’ll see what I mean. One tries for awhile, IMHO, and a couple of us did. The antisemitism became too much, way too much. Farnaz

  • timmy2

    AusiebarryYOU SAID: Timmy, Aryan is a racist term, it has lost all its old meaning, Duh. Ergo my “trap” for Farnaz. YOU: so with all due respect , you are either very naive or racistNeither. YOU: As it happens Farnaz is aryan ie. one who speaks iranianAs it happens Farnaz is a racist.

  • Farnaz2

    AussieBarry:Third and final post. :)I have explained the historic origins of both “Semite” and “Aryan” to timmy2 several times, just in case he didn’t understand. I went back to the late seventeenth century, then to the nineteenth, explaining their use in linguistics, then to Wilhelm Marr (1879) and their use in “racial science.” I concluded with the reasons for why “anti-Semite” is now spelled “antisemite” by the culturally literate.Best if you take a quick glance at this and Susan Jacoby’s lat thread.Farnaz

  • aussiebarry

    Timmy,this is not your conversation, it is a public notice board,and it is not clever to say I am a racist(aryan) and then say gotcha! when somebody calls you it.

  • timmy2

    Ausiebarry,I know this is a public board and of course you are welcome to comment as I said. But if you are going to comment, you should know the background of the conversation you are commenting on otherwise you might be speaking in the dark to the context. Farnaz is right for once. She has given all of us lessons on “Semite” and “Aryan” ad nauseam. That is why I used it in my list of ethnicities that she was demanding from all posters. If you are wondering why I am being so confrontational with Farnaz, it is because she labeled me a racist antisemite and a bigot as she does with anyone who disagrees with her on almost any subject, and I don’t stand for that. She is a demagogue of the slimiest order and she is my pet project now. I will point out her blatant racism and hypocrisy as she continues to display it.You are welcome to comment. You’re mostly caught up now.

  • Farnaz2

    Would that Timmy2 would have an ounce of self-respect. Perhaps, that is simply too much to ask of an Aryan.

  • timmy2

    Timmy said: “They didn’t call it “anti-black racism”.Farnaz said: Yes. They do. That’s what they call it.Timmy says: No. They don’t. It was, and is, just referred to as racism.

  • timmy2

    Farnaz,Timmy2 has no shortage of self respect. And thank you for continuing to display your racism.

  • Farnaz2

    And now, I’m going to give the Farnaz-obsessed Aryan, timmy2, the opportunity to have the very, very last word, so craved by his two-year-old Aryan self. Or, will the little timmy 2 be able to resist. Could he possibly contemplate getting a life with his fwends at the Aryan Nation? (After all, who else would have his racist selfette.)Stay tuned….

  • timmy2

    And we’re all still waiting for Farnaz to answer the question about who she was referring to when she said the Christians stole the Tanakh from “us”. Who is “us”? All ethnic Jews? Even the atheists of Jewish heritage born in modern times, had the Tanakh stolen from them by today’s Christians? Who could she have possibly been referring to here?

  • timmy2

    Better to be “Farnaz obsessed” than ethnicity obsessed. I’m not the one who was calling posters “cowards” for not revealing their ethnicity to Farnaz the racist. Apparently Ideas and opinions are not enough to make a judgement, Farnaz requires the ethnicity of her opponents to mount a proper attack. So fess up you cowards. What is your ethnicity?

  • Farnaz2

    Good night, you poor tormented Timmy2. If you weren’t so offensive, if I didn’t think children, young people could be reading your appalling comments, I’d have more compassion for you. As matters stand, I cannot. They, the young, persons committed to the war against racism, they are my priority. If ever you see a glimmering in your dark world, your endless moral night, many of us who have turned from you will surely welcome you back.

  • timmy2

    Aussiebarry,YOU SAID: The idea of remembering the Holocaust is to try to avoid similar attrocities in the future. We do that by opposing any idea that anyone is better, or more worthy, than anyone else because of their religion, race,intellectual ability on any other very minor variations of Homo Sapien that there might be.Hear hear.If you look at my original post on this thread (FEBRUARY 5, 2009 2:13 AM) you will see that we are on the same page here.I have been trying to get Farnaz to see that her methods and language make things worse not better, but she’s not having any of that from me. Hope you have better luck.

  • aussiebarry

    whoops! seems I stepped into a sh*t fight

  • kjohnson3

    Wow. You guys carried this little skirmish well into the wee hours, I see!It really deteriorated quickly, didn’t it?”You are so!”I have a couple of comments, then will bow out of this permanently.First, I appreciated hearing from Justtilthen a bit of background on Farnaz. I do, indeed, see where it is an exercise in futility to argue with her. Thank you for the heads-up.Second, Farnaz’s apology for misrepresenting my views was completely ridiculous — as much so as her initial accusations. She referred to me as “a well-known racist” on the basis of a single post I made to someone else about something else!”Well-known”? To whom?The apology — “If I was in error, please forgive me…Again, my apologies if I mistook you.” — might make sense if Farnaz had merely accused me of being anti-semitic, based on something of mine that she had read — and misunderstood — on this board.But she accused me of being a “well-known racist,” despite the fact that we’ve never crossed paths before.Clearly, her cant is uninformed propaganda. That being the case, why bother to apologize?Obviously, she logs on here for a fight, and she must be getting what she wants or she wouldn’t keep coming back for more.For myself, I will never again respond to anything she posts. Now that I know she has no credibility here, I won’t feel compelled to defend myself against her whacko accusations.

  • justillthen

    Hello KJOHNSON3″Clearly, her cant is uninformed propaganda. That being the case, why bother to apologize?”Clearly. It is possible that the apology is a tactic to use when caught between a rock and a hard place, to keep someone from pursuing vulnerabilities and to appear genuine. “Obviously, she logs on here for a fight, and she must be getting what she wants or she wouldn’t keep coming back for more.”Well now that is a valuable point. I recognize that I like a fight too, but one of the many differences that I assume about my tendencies, like others here, in contrast with the Farnaz model is that I am happy to consider other opinions and to reconsider my own opinions in the face of a good counterpoint. I hope that you view this, but know the feeling of closing a door and not going back in. Looking at the adolescence of many of the posts here I do not disagree. Peace.

  • justillthen

    Hello Timmy2, I agree with much of your arguments with the Farnaz. Particularly true with your taking exception to her statement of intent of “doing it for the children”, where I probably gave her too much credit in an earlier post. Though I don’t negate that it may still be true for her, the tactics that she uses calls it into question.You to Farnaz: “Were you thinking of the children when you called Ahab a terrorist and told him to go and “rape some more children” in big bold caps?She has become a foul and spewer of hate, from all I see, poisoned by perhaps the very stuff she despises. She is the swamp thing.Apparently she wants to embody Kali. I know that is a dangerous step. Wish her wellness.

  • timmy2

    Hi Justilthen,YOU SAID: She has become a foul and spewer of hate, from all I see, poisoned by perhaps the very stuff she despises”This is the key point I think. The oxymoronishness of claiming to be on a crusade against racism whilst simultaneously acting more tribal than anyone I have ever seen before on these threads is mind boggling. I apologize for leaving our other conversation unfinished. I did read your last posts, but I have had my hands full over here as you can see. We can continue that conversation another time perhaps on a thread where it becomes relevant again. Peace, fellow swamp thing. ;)

  • Farnaz2

    kjohnson3:Well-known you are Kjohnson3. DTLD had you pegged, and I’m glad you’ve found friends with Timmy2, of the Arian Nation, and Justilthen. You will never be lonely as long as you have each other. Another blogger is compiling a list of your ilk. Kind of him IMHO! So you’ll have even more friends.Then you know whom your other friends are. Whenever an issue comes up that in some way can feed into anitsemitism, you’re there. As for me, I continue to hope for human decency.Have fun in this, the only way, you apparently know.

  • Farnaz2

    Mr. Rosenshaft,I’m so sorry that you must read so much garbage after what you’ve lived through. So many survivors said never again and as you have so often pointed out again never stopped. There was again in Congo, again in Biafra, again in Uganda, again in Cambodia, again in Rwanda, again in Yougoslavia, etc.The saddest thing is that the mentality you see among some of those who post here is what makes the agains. Again.

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