Colin Powell and the American Dream

The emails started coming into my inbox immediately after Colin Powell’s appearance on Meet the Press – and they weren’t … Continued

The emails started coming into my inbox immediately after Colin Powell’s appearance on Meet the Press – and they weren’t just from Muslims. “Made me emotional,” said one person. “Inspirational,” wrote another. “It will make a difference,” claimed a third.

Powell has always played the good soldier, but on Sunday he became the ultimate statesman – insisting on our country’s core principles in the midst of a pitched partisan battle.

In a handful of sentences, General Powell named the whisper campaign against Muslims in this country for what is: un-American.

“Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country?’ The answer is ‘No. That’s not America.’ Is there something wrong with some 7-year old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she can be president? Yet I have heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion he’s a Muslim and he might be associated with terrorists. This is not the way we should be doing it in America.”

It was the bit about the 7-year-old child that caught me most. It’s partly because I have a young son, and I don’t want his big American dreams to feel confined because he prays in Arabic.

And it’s also because of what Powell’s own journey represents.

Consider that Powell was born in Harlem in the 1940s to Jamaican immigrant parents. He was a black man raised in the South Bronx at a time when the country was arguing about whether people with his skin color had the right to vote.

Who looked at young 7-year-old Colin on a New York City playground and imagined him a General, or Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, or Secretary of State? Think of the barriers of imagination that Powell had to overcome – his own, his nation’s – to achieve what he achieved.

The greatest tragedy in a country that speaks boldly of dreams is violations of imagination, narrowing of horizons. Powell experienced those violations himself based on his race, and on Sunday he did his best to make sure an emerging generation does not experience the same based on their religion.

It was a fine moment for a statesman, and a necessary affirmation of a sometimes fleeting dream.

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  • IpiTombi

    Thank you Mr. Patel. As a fellow Chicagoan, I am always delighted to read your sensible columns in WaPo. I am an immigrant with a 7-yr old girl whom I am sure will one day feel as American as any of her contemporaries. To anyone that will treat my daughter any less or less deserving of whatever she aspires, just pray that there’s no heaven or hell.

  • robertmerry

    Currently you have only one comment from an anti Muslim crazy, who understands nothing. He rants about Mohammed and the Koran, about Angels and Chariots…. What does he think is in the Bible where people live for hundreds of years, where God made the world in seven days, where God, (again), turned Lots wife into a pillar of salt for looking back on Sodom and Gammorah, what a guy!!!! A plague on all religions. However, if people are going to go to churches mosques and synagogues, they have to start adopting the point of view that what they believe may be true, not that it is true. It is the purveyance of the idea that one religion is right and all others wrong that is at the heart of so much slaughter and death. No one, can prove that they hod the ultimate truth, except maybe God and he/she/it really isn’t talking…To your point, Colin Powell is right. If Obama was a Muslim, which he isn’t so what? Christians kill for Jesus too but for Christians, that’s okay. Man I really do detest all these fanatics who own the truth….

  • rapunzelrope

    Recently I was chatting with a Muslim mother in the lobby of a doctor’s office. We both have autistic children and were comparing notes about the “looks” we get when our kids have meltdowns in the supermarket.I was struck at how much we had in common, and how it wasn’t until much later in the conversation that religion even came up.I am saddened, although not surprised, to report that she was rather defensive. “I’m from Pakistan, but we’ve been here for twenty years and my children were all born here and we’re not radical…”I tried to reassure her that I wasn’t a bigot. In fact, I belong to something of a religious minority (I’m Mormon), and I experienced mild discrimination from public school teachers in my childhood. My experience is nothing compared to what more marginalized minorities face, but it did influence my belief in fairness, decency, and respect for religious pluralism. I assume this woman became defensive because other people have been less tolerant. As an American, that shames and saddens me. I agree with General Powell completely: so what if a person is Muslim? Islam at its best is an incredibly cool religion, and I would love to see more moderate Muslims in public office.

  • asizk

    General Powell raised to the occasion big time-He is truley a great American Statesman.

  • tropicalfolk

    Collin Powell was the man who went to the United Nations and LIED TO THE WHOLE WORLD about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. So, Cheney’s plan of invading Iraq got Powell’s rubberstamp.That little “mistake” caused widespread destruction and huge suffering. One million Iraqis -almost all of them MUSLIMS- have been killed; some five million have lost their homes and are now refugees; the Middle East and South Asia are now in flames; thousands of US troops have been killes, and many other thousands were injured; the US economy went down the drain, dragging the entire world. Besides, Powell was SECRETARY OF STATE when the US singlehandedly destroyed the United Nations system by invading a foreign country without authorization by the UN Security Council. And Powell was SECRETARY OF STATE when the US trashed international law by systematically torturing prisoners of war.Oh yeah, it’s great to hear such a moron as Collin Powell talk about “American values”.

  • anla1974

    I was actually shamed by Colin Powell when he spoke out about these things. I was ashamed because as someone who considers herself Christian and a woman of good moral character, it never occured to me to be offended by how margenalizing the comments being made about Obama being Muslim are to actual Muslim people. I am also an African American. I know what it feels like to be stereotyped and margenalized. No, I don’t agree with the religion of Islam. Not at all, but that is my freedom of choice. In America they have that same freedom. No more then all Christians are good people are all Muslim’s bad people or any other religious group out there. As a Christian, I know Christ, Himself, would not want that. And as a everyday person, I don’t want that. Far be it from anyone to disallow the growth and maturity of anyone based on the faith they’ve been raised in or have chosen. Muslim does not equal terrorist, but hate speech spurs violence against innocent people and against nations and it also breeds more ignorance in already intolerant, backwoods communities in America and across the especially when it comes from our nation.

  • Greg285

    Despite what others may say, but to me, by endorsing Sen. Obama, General Colin Powell put the country first; before ideology, before party loyalty and before personal affiliations. He very clearly gave the reasons for his choice–Sen. McCain’s bad judgment in suspending his campaign, his selection of Gov. Palin as the VP and the Republican Party’s politics of fear-mongering and divisiveness. If we are to remain a great Nation, we must elect a President who can bring us together and who can bring out the best in us. Between Sen. McCain and Sen. Obama, General Powell has chosen Sen. Obama as the candidate with the temperament and sensibilities required of the next President of our great country that is going through very difficult times. For General Powell’s honesty, I salute him.

  • kert1

    Why is Obama accepting Powell’s endorsement. Isn’t he part of Bush’s cronies.This is THE guy who presented the “lies” to the U.N. that brought us into this “illegal war.” Why would you want an endorsement from that guy? Some have tried to make the case that Powell was forced to lie because of pressure from above (evil Dick Cheney, George Bush, Halliburton, the Carlyle Group, Aliens, etc) but wouldn’t that even be worse? A decorated general that puts office politics above soldiers lives? Sure, you can say that some democrats, even those who were on key committees were “duped” (as ridiculous as that argument is)–but you can’t say that about Powell. He–by your definition–lied to get us into an illegal war. In reality, I think Powell is a genuine hero, who acted honorably with the best information he had at the time. But you can’t have the “they lied, troops died” argument AND “the Colin Powell endorsement proves Obama has the experience and judgment to lead” argument. It’s one of the two. By accepting Powell’s nod, democrats who made accusations about “lying” to get us into war are basically admitting they were wrong. Considering the endorsement is more directly valuable to their political gain today, I’d guess they’ll be happy with the trade off.

  • semyaza

    CCNL :”Mohammed[sic] was an illiterate”–He was born in the 6th century. Nearly everyone was illiterate. In fact, the word “illiteracy” didn’t even exist then. Only after the Industrial Revolution, with the advent of mass education, would such a word have any meaning.P.S. Maybe Muhammad got carried away with his 11 wives. But before we judge him too harshly, let’s recall that King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (for a grand total of 1,000 Special Ladies).

  • hsnkhwj

    n an appearance Sunday morning on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” Powell said in part:“I’m also troubled by, not what Senator McCain says, but what members of the party say. And it is permitted to be said such things as, ‘Well, you know that Mr. Obama is a Muslim.’ Well, the correct answer is, he is not a Muslim, he’s a Christian. He’s always been a Christian. But the really right answer is, what if he is? Is there something wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer’s no, that’s not America. Is there something wrong with some seven-year-old Muslim-American kid believing that he or she could be president? Yet, I have heard senior members of my own party drop the suggestion, ‘He’s a Muslim and he might be associated terrorists.’ This is not the way we should be doing it in America.”Powell should be commended for his comments. HOW DOES IT MATTER IF A SEVEN YEAR OLD MUSLIM EXPRESSES HIS DESIRE TO BE THE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S.? No one said this before. Bigots like CCNL will always be there.

  • barfolomew

    can a 7 year old kid raised in a family that isn’t religious at all dream of being president?Unlikely, unless that kid learns how to lie about it. The first Muslim president will be elected before the first atheist. The first gay president will be elected, the first lesbian … the first pedophile president will be elected before the first atheist – as along as they all mouth some religious BS the same freaks who hate Muslims because they’re not Christian will vote for a Muslim before they vote for an atheist.I admire Powell for his holding to our American values above and beyond the call of duty. But I still don’t see this as being truly inclusive.

  • doc6

    I was most impressed by Powel’s comments. The only way to stop moderate muslims to turn against the policies of west is to give equal rights to them. No religion teaches terror and no person should be profiled based on their religion. America is the great country because of its acceptance to the diversity of race, religion and culture. After 9/11 the way muslims are profiled, it made me worried that we are losing this essential value. Hearing Collin Powel gave me a reassurance that sincere people who love their country and humanity irrespective of race and religion are still there. It boosted my good hopes for this country. I sincerely believe that we need a lot of education about muslims in this country. People are unaware and ignorant in this area and they need to be educated so they can make informed and thoughtful decisions.

  • observer12

    None of what Powell said should have been necessary since a candidate’s religion or lack thereof is irrelevant to his candidacy.That said, this is the man who sold his soul at the United Nations, who lied to the world about WMDs. His UN address was his meeting with destiny, an occasion for which he was unprepared.

  • CCNL

    Solomon had 700 wives?? Simply more OT myth!!! Get with the 21st century. There was no Adam and Eve, no Noah, no Abraham, no Moses, no Joshua!!! Even many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis no longer believe the stories of the OT.www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm Unfortunately, there was an illiterate, warmongering, hallucinating, greed and lust filled, womanizing Arab named Mahound aka Mohammed!!!!

  • semyaza

    CCNL:”There was no Adam and Eve, no Noah, no Abraham, no Moses, no Joshua!!! Even many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis no longer believe the stories of the OT.”–Next you’re going to tell me that Jews don’t believe in Jesus!

  • paris1969

    “America is the great country because of its acceptance to the diversity of race, religion and culture.”

  • spidermean2

    I think 15 of the 18 people who were involved in 911 were all Saudi nationals. Who would have thought the the Saudis would do that? Saudi Arabia is considered an “American ally”, isn’t it not? Powell is an IDIOT. You can’t just easily take out the fear and suspicions from ordinary Americans after the 911 attack. And guess what? It will happen again, albeit, on a LARGER scale. The IDIOT just want to score points and blame everything including why he chosed to be a Republican for years until he met Palin. Where have you been Powell? Republicans are full of people like Sarah Palin, IDIOT.

  • Kiyoryu

    The point that anyone has the right to governmental positions regardless of religions is one of the fundamental bases of this country and we’ve forgotten that. We as a nation still believe that only we and ours are suited to govern, and a lot still believe that the “others” need to be kept out of office (sadly many “secular” Atheists believe in this tenant as much as Evangelical neo-cons.) It’s a complete and total violation of Freedom of Religion and is in no way implied through the separation of church and state, also a fundamental basis of our country. Part of the reason for the separation of church and state? It’s not so that you people can bicker with each other “Your religion is wrong, Mohammad was a monster, Muslims are murderers, there is no Jesus, I’ll never vote for you, wah wah wah!!!” It’s so that one day we will have a Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan or even Atheist president.I agree that there should be no reason for Colin Powell to say what he did. Sadly, however, for most of America this is a concept we cannot grasp, and every once in a while we need someone to beat it into us again.

  • CCNL

    What General Powell should have said about Islam:Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added “angels” and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers. This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.Current crises:The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

  • abhab

    Mr. Powell asks: Mr. Powell is wrong again! First when he argued at the UN for the invasion of Iraq and now this. Mr. Powel is apparently unaware of the fact that Muslim clergy and lobby organizations have an agenda that is not in the interest of anyone. Instead of aiding their members to assimilate and reap the fruits of an enlightened laws, are inciting for the replacement of the US Constitution with a foreign and a primitive ideology that proved its inappropriatness around the world and across the centuries.Until their leaders who are living amongst us openly condemn terrorism in all of its forms, and aid us in apprehending the Jihadists amongst them we are to assume they condone it.

  • AdilJafry

    Divisions among the people can only advesely affect a country’s economic potential and hurt its competitiveness. The core of our American ideals – freedom and equality – must become a source of strength in times of turmoil (such as in which we live). Gen. Powell’s effort to cement the divisions among the people can only help unify Americans and make America stronger.

  • Sidney3

    ABHAB is right on. Like Communism, Islam is intolerant, violent and expansionist. It is a failed ideology. If Commies can be called bad names and banned, why not Islam?5 Muslims on trial for Ft. Dix terror plot.An Afghan Muslim gets 20 years for checking the internet on women’s rights.An aid worker blown up because Muslims called her a missionary. Every day Muslims kill civilians by dozens in different parts of the world.

  • Paganplace

    ” Sidney3 Author Profile Page:”ABHAB is right on. Like Communism, Islam is intolerant, violent and expansionist. It is a failed ideology.”So is McCarthyism. Not that you’d know it the way the GOP talks, these days. “If Commies can be called bad names and banned, why not Islam?”I think we should be asking why Commies and Muslims are your first concern, if it’s really Liberty and America you love.

  • halozcel1

    Gypsy woman Janet aka Paganplace,How should Liberty,Human Rights,Contemporary Values and Woman’s Dignity be protected against those who absolutely wish and try to destroy them ?Would you please write your opinion about women(you are a woman) who have no Liberty ?

  • CCNL

    Marc, Marc, Marc,The truth about Islam has not changed. However, one must be reminded repeatedly about the dangers of Islam so as not to lower our guard as we did on 9/11.

  • ASTORIA

    What planet are you really living on Halozcel?

  • ASTORIA

    I very rarely, if ever copy posts on different threads- but this sums it up. General Powell has stimulated a much needed topic of discussion in America with his conscience driven words.It was no different whatsoever than other conversations I have had in my life with judgemental, controlling, fundamentalists who spew stupidity.The fact that she found more in common with the ideology of the christian right- than with a woman who shares her religion- proves just how ridiculous it is to make distinctions based solely on religious beliefs.I’m not going to stop being American, and I’m not going to stop being a Muslim.

  • jailkkhosla

    hsnkhwjThe acts of Hindu fringe elements if proven to be criminal must be punished. But the reach of these fringe groups have no support from mainstream Hindus.But prior to independence and currently the the separatists in India had and have mainstream Muslim support. The reach is widespread and they will not rest unless India is partitioned one more time.Dont forget Christians stole all the land from the natives in the Americas, Australia and New Zealand and until recently were massacring the natives. Christians also killed 6 million Jews in Europe with the support of Pope Pius.The massacres of Jews by Muhammad, Islam’s founder, are well documented.

  • Paganplace

    Let’s just try and focus on America right now, sports fan. If we can’t sort *this* out, what someone does in India just isn’t something we have any right to say boo about.

  • Paganplace

    I mean, hey. If I were from India, I’d be looking at how Evangelical Christianity has been essentially trying to tear America, that great pluralistic *hope* *apart,* and, yeah, I’d be inclined to be like, ‘Hey, we’ve got enough potential problems here without you exporting *yours* into my neighborhood. ‘ Seriously.

  • ASTORIA

    Funny how if it is Hindu, Jai suddenly develops the awareness that fringe elements exist and are not representative of all Hindus- One cannot rightfully say, it is wrong to discriminiate- to vilify, to disenfranchise and sideline my group-

  • hsnkhwj

    What US strategic planners do not realize is that the saffron clad (semiliterate and illiterate) sants (so-called saints) behind the Hindu extremist movement spearheaded by the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the Bajrang Dal and such outfits have a deep hatred of the US and the West, as much as the Islamic fundamentalists.No, Jailkkhosla, these Hindus extremists are not some fringe groups. They are well organized and well funded fanatics supported and funded by overseas Hindus.Hindus of India are known for urine-drinking, animal worshiping and bride-burning (alive)for the sake of dowry. They burn alive widows in the name of Sati, paint their homes with cow dung paste, burn cow dung cakes for fuel, worship snakes, and monkeys and when Christians object to these practices, they kill them and burn their churches. How stupid!

  • aka2

    It may seem odd to say this at a moment that capitalism has been humbled, but i still believe that democratic, capitalist countries will prevail in the end. Just as the world rejected socialism and central planning as the path to prosperity, so will our plural, secular democratic America ultimately will defeat political racism and political religionism.

  • marcedward1

    CCNL writes Nope – you don’t know what you’re talking about. As a successful merchant it would have been impossible for Muhammed to be illiterate.”hallucinating”Thats possible.”warmongering”Wrong again. He took Mecca peacefully.”greedy”Nope, he preached giving to the poor, not accumulating wealth.”lust-filled”No evidence what so ever. His first marriage lasted a long time with no reports of womanizing.”long-dead Arab”Finally you get something right.

  • aka2

    I agree with General Powell completely: so what if a person is Muslim? Islam at its best is an incredibly cool religion, and I would love to see more moderates in public office.

  • jailkkhosla

    There will always be some Muslims who may be truly loyal to America. But America, Canada, Mexico, Europe must learn from India and heed Santayana and learn from history, lest they repeat it.Around the early 1900s the Muslim population of undivided India began to approach 25% and the separatist movement which was always there took on violent wings. Politicians belonging to the Congress part that was leading the independence movement were targeted and killed by goons paid by the Muslim League and generally even Muhammad Ali Jinnah kept quiet. The rest is history. The Muslims got their Pyara Pakistan ( beloved Pakistan) but the majority of Muslims in what is now India did not migrate there. These Muslims in in India were more passionate about Pakistan than the Muslims then living in the part that became Pakistan.Today the population of Muslims in India is around 20% and the violence has begun. Indigenous Muslims are carrying out bombings. Not too long ago Muslims burned to death 59 Hindu women and children as they were returning from a pilgrimage. There is a well organized group of Muslims in India that have become experts in bomb making. Recently you will recall doctors of Indian origin were involved in carrying out terrorist acts in the UK.Please learn from history before history gets you. Stop all immigration from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Egypt as these countries still have active Muslim terrorist organizations that have widespread sympathy and empathy and financial support from the general populace. The immigration from India should also be carefully screened, may be even banned for some time.It will be much cheaper this way than to invade Pakistan etc and try to democratize them. Afghanistan just sentenced a journalism student to 20 years of imprisonment for asking questions about women’s rights in Islam and the USA is trying to rebuild this nation.

  • abhab

    Re:Powell

  • observer12

    CCNL”As long as the Worst Book Ever Written aka the koran is the operating manual of Islam, Muslims of any stripe cannot be trusted. Moron,Putz,1. There is no such thing as the OT (sic), except as it exists in your diseased mind. There is the TANAKH, a sacred text of a religion not yours.2. The NT (sic) is fiction, ugly, bloody fiction.

  • DebChatterjee

    Someone fulminated at Jai Khosla:”The Hindus will turn against the West sooner than later. A lot of Hindu terrorist/extremist fund-raising outfits operate out of the West, especially the US, spreading a subversive faith in idolatry and mind-altering techniques among Westerners. This will undermine the civilization of the West in the long run. Who understands this?”Well, the Hindus have their right to do whatever they want to provided they do not violate or infringe on US policies and “interests”. That’s none of Pope’s business. Regarding the unfortunate violence against Christians in Kandhamal, Orissa, this is indeed provoked by the cowardly acts of the Christian missionaries. These Christian missionaroes have abused time and again the secular hospitality of India. For example, they used deception and money to convert the poor. If the spiritual strength of the Christian doctrine was so strong and powerful why doesn’t the elite and well-to-do in India get converted ? Hardly any conversions we hear are in the upper echelons of the Hindu society. The poor and impoverished get converted and in turn use the quota system to beat the average Joe.The violence perpetrated by the Bajrang Dal and VHP are a manifestation of these converted Christians who have joined hands with the Maoists who have killed Swami Lakshmananda. What is so damn hypocritical is that Hindus have no right to express themselves and their collective identity like Muslims or Christians – just because they are the majority in India. So, the country’s values would be dictated by the minority – as the West wants India to do ? Double Standards anyone ? And the Hindus won’t resent if the West wants them to reject their own wishes and desires ? How would Americans feel if Hugo Chavez wanted the same for Americans – abandon capitalism and embrace socialism ? And why would Hindus in India have to submit to American wishes anyway ?

  • DebChatterjee

    “Wrong again. He took Mecca peacefully.”What about Madinah (Yathrib) ? How about slaughter of Asma-bint-Marwan, Abu Afak, Ka’ab bin Ashra’af – because they dared to oppose his doctrines and policies ?

  • abhab

    The Jewish atheist from Iran spews: Correction; bible should be replaced by “Old Testament” and story of Christ by “New Testament.”

  • CCNL

    Spiderman, Spiderman, Spiderman,I do not wrestle with the existence of the simple preacher man i.e. Jesus. There is sufficient historic evidence that he lived and was crucified. There is no historic evidence that he rose from the dead. Check previous commentaries for references.

  • abhab

    Mustafa aka Marc Edward defends his prophet thus:”greedy””lust-filled”

  • hsnkhwj

    Christian Arrested Under Anti-Conversion Law in IndiaHindu extremists accuse children’s home operator of converting 11 childrenIndore police arrested Sunny John under the state anti-conversion law after members of the Dharma Raksha Samiti (DRS or Religious Protection Committee), a Hindu extremist group, surrounded the Heera Nagar police station protesting “conversions” on October 7, reported the Pioneer, a national daily.John, an independent worker, runs three schools for children. He was accused of converting 11 children between the ages of 5 and 10 who were residing in his school-cum-children’s home at Sunder Nagar Extension in Indore.“The complainants, Mr. Mansingh Patil and others, have alleged that John was converting children to Christianity,” D.P.S. Pariyar, police inspector of the Heera Nagar Police Station, told Compass. “John’s bank account also shows that he received foreign money.”Indira Iyengar, member of the State Minorities Commission questioned the arrest, noting that none of the children had converted to Christianity or complained of attempted conversion.“It means that anyone from the Hindu extremist groups can easily make allegations and pressure the police to arrest a member of the Christian minority community,” she said. “The administration is cheating the Christian community.”John was simply providing food and education to children from low-income families, Iyengar said. “This is a case of social policing, which is disturbing,” she added.The police registered the case under Sections 3, 4 and 5 of the Dharma Swatantraya Adhiniyam (Freedom of Religion Act) of 1968.Section 3 of the Freedom of Religion Act states, “No person shall convert or attempt to convert, either directly or otherwise, any person from one religious faith to another by the use of force or by allurement or by any fraudulent means nor shall any person abet such conversion.”Section 4 says that thus attempting to convert a minor can be punished with up to two years in prison and a fine of up to 10,000 rupees (approximately $235).Section 5 requires a “religious priest” who takes part in a “ceremony necessary for conversion” to send word of the conversion to the district administration. If religious officials fail to do so, they can be imprisoned up to one year and/or fined up to 1,000 rupees (about $25).The 11 children who were studying in John’s school told the Hindustan Times newspaper that John had been teaching them and providing them food daily. They denied that any foreigner visited them.The newspaper also said that all the children had been taught prayers about Lord Jesus and were shown Christian cassettes. “However, none of them wore any cross or had any other overt signs of being Christians,” it reported.John denied to the newspaper that he had converted any of the children. He said that he and his family ran three schools under the names of Rewa Mission School at Sunder Nagar Extension, Ghata Billod and Vishwas Nagar in Pithampur.The newspaper quoted members of the DRS as saying that John was not a man of good character. They also accused him of having an affair with the wife of another man and for killing him.A Christian couple, Jagdish and Grace Nayak, had earlier been arrested on charges of attempted forced conversion leveled by members of the DRS in Indore in July. (See Compass Direct, “Indian Couple Arrested for Attempted Forced Conversion,” August 4.)On August 21, the Nayaks, including their 2-year-old child, were attacked by a mob of Hindu extremists. (See Compass Direct, “Mob Attacks Prayer Meeting in Madhya Pradesh, India,” August 29.)Copyright © 2005 International Christian Response hmk 3pm mm xhtml css txp bau

  • vjg3

    How about intolerance and violence committed by Muslims all over the world? Why are there 57 Islamic nations with no significant number of non-Muslims? Why no churches or bibles allwed in Saudi Arabia?Europenews.dk

  • DebChatterjee

    HSNKHWJ wrote:” John, an independent worker, runs three schools for children. He was accused of converting 11 children between the ages of 5 and 10 who were residing in his school-cum-children’s home at Sunder Nagar Extension in Indore.”How can children between 5 and 10 define their spiritual orientations ? What next ? We shall hear newborns professing allegiance to the Pope at Vatican ! How can such young children be knowledgeable to willingly convert ? Obviously enticements were used like food, toys, movies and in some extreme cases – sex. Nothing spared. Surely the evil machinations of fundamentalist Christian proselytizers are work. This precisely shows why violence in India against Christians is rising, and shall unfortunately rise.

  • journeyer58

    Mr. Patel, we in this country have always experienced bias and discrimination based upon religion. One need only look at the mass immigrations of the last century to see the effects of the bias and discrimination that existed in this country.

  • hsnkhwj

    Deb Chatterji:The very first article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:In India, Hindus have been an oppressive force against Dalits (the untouchables), Christians and other minorities. A primary force of conversions is the unbearable conditions of the Dalits (untouchables). The Hindu caste system is the most evil system humans invented. The Dalits want to get out of the clutches of the Upper caste Hindus. That is why conversions take place.Deb Chatterji’s last name signifies his caste, which is Chattopadhyay. Obviously, he can not accept the ills of Hinduism.

  • Farnaz2

    Would Cascioli have a better case against the existence of Gabriel and the other “pretty wingie messengers of God and Allah??? Absolutely!!!He had an excellent case. See his web site. And if you don’t believe him, light a candle for the flying spaghetti monster.

  • EliPeyton

    Barry referred to his muslim faith while talking with Georgie Porgie Stepalloverus. While Porgie quickly made an issue out of it by correcting him (can’t you just hear Bubba in Georgie’s earpiece), it sounds pretty genuine. But hey, why trust a clinger when you have the statement of gadfly Ghadafi.

  • abhab

    Observer 12 had the gall to say:

  • Farnaz2

    Ahbah:The Jewish atheist from Iran spews:Correction; bible should be replaced by “Old Testament” and story of Christ by “New Testament.”Idolater from under the sea attributes to me words I’ve never said, aka, slander, etc. But to comment on the Captain’s comment:Correction: There is no such thing as the “Old” (sic) Testament. There is only the Tanakh.

  • Farnaz2

    aka2 “It may seem odd to say this at a moment that capitalism has been humbled, but i still believe that democratic, capitalist countries will prevail in the end. Just as the world rejected socialism and central planning as the path to prosperity, so will our plural, secular democratic America ultimately will defeat political racism and political religionism.”Glad to hear it, AKA2, since you’ve already demonstrated that you’re a racist on another thread. In fact this anti-racist had to demonstrate for you just wear racist ignorance will take your bigoted self. I thought I demonstrated it pretty well, didn’t you?Now, if you’re cured of your filthy racism, if that’s what this post means, glad to hear it. I’ll be waiting to see specific evidence….

  • hsnkhwj

    RESPONSE TO VGJ AND JAILKKHOSLA:Anti-Christian Violence on the Rise in India(London, September 30, 1999) – The Indian government has failed to prevent increasing violence against Christians and is exploiting communal tensions for political ends, Human Rights Watch charged in a report released today. The 37-page report, Politics by Other Means: Attacks Against Christians in India, details violence against Christians in the months ahead of the country’s national parliamentary elections in September and October 1999, and in the months following electoral victory by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (Indian People’s Party, known as the BJP) in the state of Gujarat.

  • Farnaz2

    Caliph No need to hide behind links. Like mice, your type is always detectable. Why don’t you just say what your racist self needs to say, P.I.G.?I’ll take it from there.

  • hsnkhwj

    Deb Chatterji:Here is some more on Rat worship in India as opposed to rat eating:The other side of this story is the esteem in which rats are held by the upper caste Hindus. Mark Moxon, in his travelogue of June 27, 1998, found a temple in Bikaner in the State of Rajasthan that is a special place for rats.India is world’s largest democracy. It is an interesting country. We read so much about economic progress there. Unfortunately, thousands of years old caste system is still intact. India’s most overseas Hindus have supported the right wing Hindu Janta Party which is controlled by the high castes. Their anti-monotheism proclivity is self-destructive.

  • hsnkhwj

    FURTHER RESPONSE TO VGJ AND JAILKKHOSLA:The only proven incident of bioterrorism the U.S. has ever experienced, was a bizarre plot by the Rajneeshee Hindus, to steal a county election in Oregon in 1984. The Rajneeshees, followers of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, a self-proclaimed guru exiled from India, had moved into a ranch in rural Wasco County, taken political control of the small nearby town of Antelope, and changed its name to Rajneesh. Next, the Hindus sought to run the whole county by winning the local election in 1984.The amazing story of the Wasco County election scandal was revealed by Leslie L. Zaitz, an investigative reporter for The Oregonian, and Dr. John Livengood, an epidemiologist at the Centers for Disease Control. To win the county election, the Rajneeshee Hindus planned to sicken a good portion of the population in the town of The Dalles, where most Wasco County voters live. Their weapon of choice to keep local residents from voting was salmonella bacteria.VIOLENCE AND TERRORISM ARE NOT A MONOPOLY OF ANY ONE RELIGION. THERE IS A NEED FOR INTER-FAITH DIALOG.

  • twmatthews

    To Spiderman — name calling in place of arguments is childish and intellectually dishonest. If you wish to make claims, other than that your spider sense allows you to understand writings that other people can’t, provide some evidence to back up those claims. The idea that the virgin birth, for example, is historically factual when only 2 gospels mention them and they in fact contradict each other about significant historical points seems to form a pattern found throughout the bible. How were Mary’s thoughts recorded when no one was around to “read her mind” demonstrates just how preposterous the claims of the bible are. Although I might add they are no more preposterous than you claiming to have extra human intuition enabling you to understand fictional stories that others can’t. Could you have been bitten by a radioactive spider?Put up some evidence if you’ve got any.

  • CCNL

    “Luigi Cascioli is an Italian atheist author. When Cascioli was younger he trained to become a Roman Catholic priest, but he left his training to become a pronounced atheist. He asserted that Jesus never existed, but was a fictionalisation of a historical “anti-Roman Jewish insurgent” called John of Gamala.[1] Cascioli’s arguments for this hypothesis were presented in his book The Fable of Christ.In response to this book, in 2002, a local priest, Father Enrico Righi, published a critique of Cascioli in a church newsletter[citation needed]. On September 13, 2002, Cascioli filed a lawsuit against the Catholic Church, and Father Righi in particular, for libel against him, and for promoting fraud by observing that the existence of Christ is historically factual.Originally, the Italian judge threw out the case, but the Court of Appeal asserted that there was a genuine case to answer. On January 27, 2006, an Italian judge began taking initial hearings to decide whether the case should be allowed to come to court. On February 9, 2006, the judge again threw out the case and recommended an investigation of Cascioli for slander against Father Righi.On March 20th, 2006, the case was re-evaluated,[2] and in July of that year Cascioli was fined by an Italian appeals court for bringing a fraudulent suit,[3] a prospect that Cascioli dismissed, saying proving the charge would still require Righi to prove Christ’s existence.The European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg had agreed to consider hearing the merits of the case, but the case was closed because the period for presenting the necessary documentation expired.”See Google for added information.Would Cascioli have a better case against the existence of Gabriel and the other “pretty wingie messengers of God and Allah??? Absolutely!!!

  • indomalay05

    This is the same Mr. Bowell who stands guilty of a million innocent lives in Iraq in Gulf War I & II. This is the same Mr. Bowell who also argued for invading Iraq at UN … Redemption is good for the sinner but forgetfulness of the victim[s] is a greater tragedy.

  • spidermean2

    CCNL, If I were born 1000 years sometime in the future and read Einstein’s Relativity Theory, I would instantly recognize the genius of the person. That would only happen if you can understand his writings. The same is true with the Bible. Only those who can understand it along with its deep metaphors can see the POWER and genius of the author. One can easily conclude that it is a work of God and that Christ is God.You are an idiot that is why you still wrestle about Christ’s existence.

  • marcedward1

    semyaza : Actually as a guy who led caravans and made a good living trading things, it’s highly unlikely that Muhammed was illiterate. A book reader? Probably not, but he would have had to be able to read and write to keep track of things bought and sold.

  • jailkkhosla

    Volume 5, Book 59, Number 512: Narrated Anas: The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer near Khaibar when it was still dark and then said, “Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned.” Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as slaves. Fifteen year old Safiya was amongst the captives. Her husband had been killed that day the Apostle of Allah. She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet and shared his bed. The Prophet was sixty. The Prophet made her manumission as her ‘Mahr’ when she agreed to become a Muslim.

  • imrankhan164

    I am a Muslim, but I strongly disagree with Colin Powell’s viewpoint and comments about American Muslims. We all know that Muslims are a threat to Israel— most want the Jewish homeland destroyed. Israel is our most important friend in the world, and we should all support the candidate who is the most Pro-Israel. I understand that the U.S. economy needs to be fixed, and that McCain does not consider the “economy” to be his strength. However, McCain/ Palin are staunch supporters of Israel. Since the Jews built this country, helped manage our economy/ media/ government for the past 50 years— we owe it to Jews to vote: ISRAEL & USA FIRST. Vote McCain/ Palin

  • hsnkhwj

    JAILKHOSLA wrote:That the Aryans came from outside is a myth that was invented by Europeans. Sure there has been a mixing of light and dark skinned people. My family has both white and black and in-between people. There was no ethnic cleansing such as the type that the pedolphile, slavemongering, murderous founder of Islam perpetrated on the Jews. he murdered half their population, stole their wealth and lands and threw them out of Arabia. Muslims should return to the Jews their lands.”*************************************************************You are rewriting history and reinventing the wheel. This way you can invent your new “dharma”.Your family has diversity in skin color explains nothing. It simply means that there was hanky panky in between different ethnic groups during ancient times. Gene flow from one group to another group took place.The Aryans invasion is a well documented fact. The Aryans spoke Indo-European family of languages. Translation: Today’s, North Indian languages are derived from the Indo-European family.Today’s Tamil, Telgu, Malyalam, and Kanada are derived from the Dravidian family.In your passion, you are willing to ignore well documented facts.Hindu Caste System is evil. Face it, pal

  • DebChatterjee

    HSNKHWJ,What exactly is “Hindu religion” ? How is it defined ? The Hindu marriage act of 1950 is an assertion that Hindus don’t give a crap about religion like Christians and Muslims. Hindu society and Hindu “religion” (?) ARE different. Hindu society is NOT ruled by Hindu religious dictates. Hindu caste system, is a social phenomenon, and yes it does have a long history of racist overtones. Interestingly the holiest of the Hindu religious texts, Bhagavad Gita, explicitly condemns it. Read the English translation of the verses in Gita [16:16-20]. Thus despite such strong prohibitions, it exists because support for a caste-based society exists in the Rg Veda. Because Rd Veda precedes Gita, many people still cling to the old (Vedic) way of thinking. Yes, the caste system is “evil”. But to eliminate caste system would be near impossible. People are different by nature and by their status. For example, you shall have a world of have and have-nots. If that is not true, then all our assumptions about poverty, illiteracy are false. Similarly some of us will be educated and brilliant. That creates distinction. But, it is quite foolish to wish away such differences. At the same time it is surely criminal to exploit the differences between human beings for social gains/profit. Maybe you need to get some education on this subject before going ballistic.

  • afaturoti

    Ancient conflicts should not determine contemporary relationships. It’s as simple as that.

  • CCNL

    Draganović now resides in Hell along with all “good” Nazis.

  • hsnkhwj

    Deb Chatterji writes:”Maybe you need to get some education on this subject before going ballistic.”*********************************************************************************You are as juvenile as anybody can be. I can challenge you on education and not only match my education with yours and then exceed it. But it is neither you nor I are relevant here.A Dalit can not enter a Hindu temple even today nor will a Dalit be allowed to marry a member of the upper caste. The marriage ceremony can be performed or presided only by a Brahmin. Manu, the great Hindu philosopher, compared the Hindu caste system with different parts of the human body. Brahmans represent the head, the kshatriya represent the arms, the vaish represent the belly, and the Shudra the lower limbs. That philosophy determines the hierarchy of the caste system.Hindu social structure and Hindu religious beliefs are in a seamless web. One can not separate one from the otherYou can not fool the world with your scripture argument. You know that not many people have time to study them, and even if they did, they will find inconsistencies between them and what people actually practice.India’s big and small cities have mushrooming abortion clinics where female fetuses are routinely aborted by hundreds of thousands every year. The reason: People do not want female children so they may not have to pay dowry in their marriage.This is creating an imbalance in the sex ratio of the younger generation.Your argument that Hindus do not care about religion is a bunch of ballony. Hindus are probably as religious as any other people.Let me emphasize that there are many many good Hindus who know that harping on the past and condemning others is not the right way. These good people, I have had personal experience in dealing with them, will reach out a helping hand and extend their cooperation to promote peace and prosperity.But BJP, RSS, Bajrang Dal, Shiva Sena people are not such (good) people. It seems many followers of BJP are entrenched here in America.

  • tbarksdl

    I intend to vote a straight Democratic ticket. I’m still disturbed by the gumbayah that pours forth regarding Muslims in America. The goody two-shoes stuff from Colin Powell and others, it seems to me, trivializes a major issue. Of course, no individual should be judged by their religion, or the color of their skin. But that principle deals with Americans’ attitudes toward Muslims. It leaves unexamined Muslims’ attitudes toward basic American values. That is the missing piece of the puzzle. That is what I would like to hear more about.And anecdotal evidence—like the departed Muslim American soldier—obscures rather than clarifies. Remember how some people snickered at Ronald Reagan and his host of anecdotes that supposedly revealed a great truth about some complex issue? Like the alleged welfare recipient who showed up to collect her welfare check driving a Cadillac? Well, aren’t Democrats now doing the same thing, when they get all warm and fuzzy inside hearing Gen. Powell’s anecdote about the young Muslim?To get down to brass tacks: For years, I have been offering five questions that go to the core of the issue of how Muslims integrate into American society. I have posted them over and over again on discussion sites just like this one. Only a handful of Muslims have even bothered to respond, and none of their answers were really satisfactory. So here they are again, in an attempt to get a real dialogue going, sans anecdotes about either Americans’ mistreatment of Muslims—or Muslim loyalty to America. I ask all Muslims what the most authoritative voices of Islam would say in answer to the five questions posed below. I am not asking for the opinion of individual Muslims—although, they are welcome to post them. I won’t to know what the most authoritative Islamic scholars are saying right now about these questions. Here are the questions: (Alternatively, instead of posing the questions to the authoritative voices of Islam, you might ask your Muslim interlocutor to imagine the question was, “What would Islamic textbooks used in the teaching of Muslim students in America say in answer to the following questions?”)What do Muslims believe the most authoritative voices of Islam would answer in reply to those five questions. Or what answers you would find in an Islamic textbook?The answers to those questions will determine whether even orthodox Islam can be accommodated to a Western liberal, pluralistic society.

  • DebChatterjee

    HSNKHWJ wrote”You are as juvenile as anybody can be. I can challenge you on education and not only match my education with yours and then exceed it. But it is neither you nor I are relevant here.”Misplaced Dalit pride, perhaps ? What you have fulminated about Manu, caste, etc. are all true but truly irrelevant, as they are only anecdotal. I can cide an equal number of Hindus who are atheists, and don’t care at all. Such citations don’t establish anything at all since exceptions to your citations about Hindus exist in equal large numbers. Thus it is equally improbable that what you have written happens in real life. The bottomline is that Christian cheaters are manipulating the Dalits in conversion. Hence they need to be opposed. Sometimes, unfortunately, that opposition manifests itself in violence. The guilty must be punished, and this includes the Christian Maoists who have killed Swami Lakshmanananda.You fulminate about why Hindus are rat-worshipping, urine drinking. As I emphasized before, that’s none of your business even if it is true. And, just as Reverend Pat Roberston chides Hindus for idolatory, so does a Hindu have equal rights to fuliminate about Christian missionaries and their work in India. In India Hindus are majority, and I I cannot see why the will of the majority against the conversion be derided. Can you go openly criticize the doctrines of Islam in a Muslim country ?So, just pipe down and go back to your cave.

  • jailkkhosla

    hsnkhwjUnlike Christianity and Islam, Hinduism is a constantly improving religion. The Gita was an improvement upon the Vedas and the Upanishads were an improvement upon the Gita. Now the Indian Constitution has made all Hindus equal. Unfortunately the Constitution has retained Muslim women as a lower class because Islam requires that lower status for women. All Hindus, men and women have equal rights.Regarding rat worship, no Hindu worships a rat. In the rat temple which only a few Hindus go to the worshippers belive that the rats are the abode of God , not that rats are God.An anlogy is sweetness which resides in sugar and in syrups. But the sugar and syrup is not sweetness, but possess the quality of sweetness.That is what makes Hinduism unique and the most superior religion. Unlike Christianity we are not stuck with a Jewish rabbi named Jesus whose fondness for prostitutes did not prevent his folowers from elevating him to Godhood. We believe Divinity resided in Jesus but Jesus was not Divinity Absolute. We call that Brahman.

  • hsnkhwj

    ” DebChatterjee Author Profile Page:HSKNHWJ,Whether Hindus worship rats, Shiva’s phallus, my ass or a tree is none of the business of the Bible thumping groupies. Whether Hindu society is compatible with UNHRC and other babbles, is also a matter of debate. It is the business of the Hindus and leave it that way. If Hindus drink cow urine, and suck hard on the king cobra’s tail, thinking it will develop a golden horn on their foreheads, such is also is none of the business of the Christians cheaters who dupe the poor, illiterate Hindu dalits. If Dalits with their children want to convert to Christianity, there must be some process that has oversight in…”***********************************************************Interesting defiance, instead of acknowledging the need for reform and analyzing the true reasons for conversions of Dalits to Christianity.Dalits want to get out of the oppressive Hindu caste system. Christianity offers them human equality and dignity, totally absent in Hindu society and its irrationality mentioned by you.India is a signatory of HUMAN RIGHTS. Your BJP ideology negates the very essence of that commitment.Hindu fanatics are as irrational as the Taliban or the right wing Christian fanatics.Hindu fanatics of RSS, BAJRANG DAL, SHIVA SENA, BJP are essentially supported by Overseas Hindu fanatics. They want to take India back to the DARK AGES.

  • EliPeyton

    observer12 : Observer 12 had the gall to say:If there is any filth in the NT it is the Pharisees, the Sadducees and the Publicans; the ones who refused the message of peace and shouted “let His blood be on us and on our children.A*hole,My post was not addressed to you, but to a fellow Putz-like traveller of your vampire self. The NT is a bloody piece of garbage that imagines a deity so demented that he sends his “son” to earth to be bled to death.Then in true cannibal fashion, his disgusting followers have ritualistically eaten his flesh and drunk his blood. Materially, they have bled the world dry, murdered hundreds of millions, and most recently, through their primitive arrogant greed sent us, that is, the human race into a world wide economic crisis.Take you New Drekkament and shove it.=============================================

  • hsnkhwj

    Jailkkhosla wrote:”Unlike Christianity and Islam, Hinduism is a constantly improving religion. “*********************************************************Neither has changed. India’s political system, including elections is caste based. Lallu Prasad Yadava, Mulayam Singh Yadav, Mayawati represent the low caste Hindus and are a force to reckon with. Universities and their governance and the political dynamics are caste based.Dowry is still given and taken in marriages. The caste system has modified itself but has not been eliminated, as you would like us to believe.Raj Thackery was recently arrested and granted bail by the judiciary. His movement represents India’s version of fascism. He wants all non-Maharashtrians to be expelled from Maharashtra. SOME CONSTANT IMPROVEMENT!…?I can say a lot more on this subjects.India’s overseas Hindus support BJP and other fanatics because they despise low caste leaders like Mulayam Singh Yadava, Lallu Prasad Yadava, and Mayawati. These fanatics want to preserve the rule of the upper caste Hindus. Only BJP can deliver this.Raising the issue of conversions or Muslims is their version of diversionary tactics.

  • jailkkhosla

    hsnkhwjIt took thousnads of years for the caste system to solidify. It will take hundreds of years before it vanishes. White Christians still discriminate against blacks and remember Jesus never condemned slavery. Muhammad was a slave owner. Hinduism is not perfect but we do not claim, as Christians and Muslims do that our religion is perfect. If Christians are so good then why do they not return the lands they stole from the natives in the Americas , Australia and New Zealand?Why dont Muslims return the lands that Muhammad stole from the Jews, half of Saudi Arabia.But the real issue here is that of separatism. America and the rest of the west should learn from the Indian experiance.Muslims are traitors and they will always be traitors as long as they practice Islam.The US should ban all immigration from a select group of Muslim contries that I have listed, most prominently Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. This will be the most effective way to fight terrorism and separatism.The essence of Hinduism is : Vasud Eve kutumbkahm.All beings are one family.Sarv Kalyanam Prtahm Dharmo.the welfare of all is our prime obligation.the rest is all bells and whistles.

  • DebChatterjee

    HSKNHWJ,Whether Hindus worship rats, Shiva’s phallus, my ass or a tree is none of the business of the Bible thumping groupies. Whether Hindu society is compatible with UNHRC and other babbles, is also a matter of debate. It is the business of the Hindus and leave it that way. If Hindus drink cow urine, and suck hard on the king cobra’s tail, thinking it will develop a golden horn on their foreheads, such is also is none of the business of the Christians cheaters who dupe the poor, illiterate Hindu dalits. If Dalits with their children want to convert to Christianity, there must be some process that has oversight into the conversion process. Presently Christian missionaries are in the cheating business in the sense that they are duping the poor and illiterate and their children as young as 5 year old to convert. This would shift the political dynamic of India and increase the number of Christians who would vote based on the interest of the Christian majority nations and the Vatican shall have enornmous power in dictating political affairs in India. That’s backdoor entry of Christian theocracy. It needs to be stopped and we see violence because the original sinners (Christian missionaries) are simply crying hoarse over human rights. The UNHRC babble about “freedom of religion” assumes free will of an educated adult. An adult is generally recognized as 18 years of age. A 5 year old is not an adult and a poor, impoverished, uneducated Dalit even if he is an adult cannot exercise his intellect appropriately as stipulated in the UNHRC.

  • hsnkhwj

    JAILKKHOSLA WROTE:”Why dont Muslims return the lands that Muhammad stole from the Jews, half of Saudi Arabia.”*****************************************************************************About 3,000 years ago, the Aryans from Asia Minor invaded India. At the time, India was a prosperous country. Its civilization, known as the Indus Valley Civilization, was advanced. Its people spoke the Dravidian family of languages (Tamil, Telgu, Malayalam, and Kanada). The civilization was not only prosperous but peaceful until these Aryans invaded. They killed millions of Dravidian speaking natives and subjugated them. They drove those people (the Dravidians) to the South where those Dravidian languages are spoken today.It is at this time the caste system originated.Social interaction with members of other castes are restricted. Members of one caste can not marry members of other castes.The Dalits (the untouchables) are “polluting” to members of higher castes. Even the shadows of the untouchables is “polluting” to members of upper castes.Cow is holy to them. That is why they drink cow urine, paint their homes with cow dung paste, and burn cow dung cakes for fuel.The birth of a daughter is bad news in an upper caste Hindu family, because at the time of marriage, she has to be sent away with dowry. These Hindus burn alive the newly arrived daughter-in-law if she did not bring “enough” dowry. That way, the young man can get married again and get another set of dowry.If the husband of a married woman dies, the widow is burned alive in a ceremony called Sati. Even young widows are burned alive.It is because of such practices, the Dalits converted to Islam and are still converting to Christianity.So, my counter question is” WHY DON’T THE UPPER CASTE HINDUS (THE ARYANS) RETURN THE LAND TO THE DRAVIDIANS?

  • jailkkhosla

    hsnkhwjThat the Aryans came from outside is a myth that was invented by Europeans. Sure there has been a mixing of light and dark skinned people. My family has both white and black and in-between people. There was no ethnic cleansing such as the type that the pedolphile, slavemongering, murderous founder of Islam perpetrated on the Jews. he murdered half their population, stole their wealth and lands and threw them out of Arabia. Muslims should return to the Jews their lands.Here is the story of Asma bint MarwanAsma bint Marwan was an Arab poetess with six young children. She was very popular with Arabs and was exposing Muhammad (PedoM) as a fake and fraud. pedoM had her murdered while she was sleeping with her children.She had written:I despise B. Malik and al-Nabit When PedoM heard what she had said he said, “Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter?” `Umayr b. `Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the Pedo and told him what he had done and he [Muhammad] said, “You have helped God and His apostle, O `Umayr!” When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, “Two goats won’t butt their heads about her”, so `Umayr went back to his people.Now there was a great commotion among B. Khatma that day about the affair of bint [daughter of] Marwan. She had five sons, and when `Umayr went to them from the apostle he said, “I have killed bint Marwan, O sons of Khatma. Withstand me if you can; don’t keep me waiting.” That was the first day Islam became powerful among B. Khatma; before that those who were Muslims concealed the fact. The first of them to accept Islam was `Umayr b. `Adiy who was called the “Reader”, and `Abdullah b. Aus and Khuzayma b. Thabit. The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma became Muslims because they saw the power of Islam. Thus a murder of a poet and mother by PedoM became a cause celebre.

  • observer12

    abhab Observer 12 had the gall to say:If there is any filth in the NT it is the Pharisees, the Sadducees and the Publicans; the ones who refused the message of peace and shouted “let His blood be on us and on our children.A*hole,My post was not addressed to you, but to a fellow Putz-like traveller of your vampire self. The NT is a bloody piece of garbage that imagines a deity so demented that he sends his “son” to earth to be bled to death.Then in true cannibal fashion, his disgusting followers have ritualistically eaten his flesh and drunk his blood. Materially, they have bled the world dry, murdered hundreds of millions, and most recently, through their primitive arrogant greed sent us, that is, the human race into a world wide economic crisis.Take you New Drekkament and shove it.

  • jailkkhosla

    Volume 5, Book 59, Number 505:Merciful Muhammad and urine drinking Narrated Anas: Some people of the tribe of ‘Ukl and ‘Uraina arrived at Medina to meet the Prophet and embraced Islam and said, “O Allah’s Prophet! We are the owners of milch livestock (i.e. bedouins) and not farmers (i.e. countrymen).” They found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So Allah’s Apostle ordered that they should be provided with some milch camels and a shepherd and ordered them to go out of Medina and to drink the camels’ milk and urine So they set out and when they reached Al-Harra, they reverted to Heathenism after embracing Islam. When this news reached the Prophet, he sent some people in pursuit of them. (So they were caught and brought back to the Prophet ). The Prophet gave his orders in their concern. So their eyes were branded with pieces of iron and their hands and legs were cut off and they were left away in Harra till they died in that state of theirs. (See Hadith 234 Vol 1)

  • hsnkhwj

    Astoria:Thank you, Astoria. The guy is an idiot. Any one who assigns labels like, “Try to educate yourself”, or “Dalit pride” without knowing the individual personally has to be an idiot.I am not a Dalit. The guy thinks that only a Dalit can speak on behalf of Dalits or only a Muslim can speak on behalf of Muslims. The debate, in my view, is not personal. The point any one tries to make should be supported by historical or scientific facts. Personal opinions supported by logic can be relevant. The best example is Colin Powell’s statement of last Sunday.This person does not understand that IT IS THE MESSAGE NOT THE MESSENGER THAT IS THE MOST RELEVANT THING. Of course, if the messenger is some one of high standing (like Colin Powell) that can help the argument.

  • ASTORIA

    World Religion News Actually India is one of the most religious countries in the world. “Misplaced Dalit pride, perhaps ?” Deb, that elitist garbage doesn’t work in America. You have bragged endlessly about your own brahmin birth- yes- it is a bit repulsive and backwards- Now you ‘cide’ (cite) that you know alot of athesits. Well, so what? You live in the UK. One of the LEAST religious countries on the planet. And your only defense- to the racism and sexism inherent in the laws of Manu is-”that’s none of your business even if it is true.” Now, I’ve watched you dole out the ugly racist filth for 2 years. While you admit freely- the criticisms are true-

  • halozcel1

    Astoria,There is contrdiction in your post.-Law of England say *Marriage between one man and one woman*-Law of England says *Divorce is only possible by court desicion*Besides,the Jews in UK is very small and peaceful community,but submission followers/muslims are very aggressive,large and violence-inclined(tendency) men,so,HSNKHWJ,To Someone,

  • DebChatterjee

    Astoria and HSKNWJ Are you both Muslims ?

  • DebChatterjee

    Astoria wrote:”You have bragged endlessly about your own brahmin birth- yes- it is a bit repulsive and backwards- “Show me something as proof, perhaps ??HSNKHWJ & Astoria:My guess is that both of you are Muslims. Yes, I am an idiot because I should have understood, because my post about Sharia in UK appears to have hit a strong nerve with both of you. This can happen, in all probability, if both of you are Muslims. That’s my guess. Again, you can shout your denials from the treetops, but other than believing your loud denials one cannot prove beyond a shadow of doubt that you are not Muslims. For one thing you guys don’t use your real name like me on this blog.Again, I assert that being a Muslim (and Senator Obama is NOT) it is difficult to accept that person as US President. A true Muslim owes allegiance to Islam first, and not to his/her country of birth. So, a US President who is Muslim by religion cannot uphold secular US Constitution or have Constitutional loyalty or show allegiance with Israel. That’s what Colin Powell missed. He is being nice anyway about Muslims. Yes, all Muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims. Finally it is you who shoots the messenger and blame others for doing the same. That’s an act of hypocrisy. In fact, the history of Islam is full of such acts of hatred. Such shooting the messenger has also divine sanction – read Quran [005:033].

  • hsnkhwj

    halozcel1:You have joined the club . Terrorism is terrorism regardless of where it occured and when it occured. Time is relative.Grow up!

  • hsnkhwj

    HINDU TERRORISMMalegaon blast: Focus on new outfitsThe arrest of two more people on Sunday for their alleged involvement in the Malegaon bomb blast of September 29 has brought the activities of a couple of little known Hindu radical organisations into sharp focus: the Rashtriya Jagran Manch and Abhinav Bharat. The Maharashtra Anti Terrorist Squad (ATS) which is probing the blast, arrested Sameer Kulkarni from Bhopal and Sangram Singh from Indore, bringing the total number of arrests to seven. Both are office bearers of Abhinav Bharat.ATS sources admitted that they had mistakenly named the ‘Hindu Jagran Manch’ as being under their scanner. They had actually meant the Rashtriya Jagran Manch. Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, the president of the Manch, has already been held for her alleged involvement in the blast. “Brochures we have collected indicate she is its president,” said an ATS source.The ATS also raided Pragya’s rented residence in Jabalpur on Sunday, but admitted to have found nothing incriminating. Very little is known about either of these organisations as yet. The Rashtriya Jagran Manch (RJM) is said to have been formed after the July 3 communal riots in Indore this year in which eight people were killed.The Abhinav Bharat was floated by five disgruntled saffron workers after their expulsion from the RSS. It started functioning in Madhya Pradesh from May 2008.The name ‘Abhinav Bharat’ was inspired by the Veer Savarkar run pre-Independence Abhinav Bharat Society, sources close to the organisation said. It has held a number of meetings in recent months and launched a concerted membership drive.The group had also been named following an attack on a Christian family in Jabalpur on August 3. Pastor Sam Oomen and his family were badly beaten up by a mob allegedly led by a vice president of Abhinav Bharati.Police were also searching for Ramchandra Kalsangra – the brother of mobile seller Shivnarayan Singh Kalsangra, who is already under arrest – but failed to find him.

  • hsnkhwj

    Deb Chatterji wrote:”Yes, all Muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims. “****************************************************************Another idiotic statement. Mahatma Gandhi was asasinated by a fanatic Hindu, Nathu Ram Godse.Rajiva Gandhi was killed by a Hindu Tamil Suicide bomber.Tamil Tigers have committed innumerable suicide bombings in Sri Lanka.The Rajneeshi Hindus used bioterrorism as a weapon to stop locals in Oregon from voting in 1984. Timothy McVeigh was a blue-eyed white Christian who committed a heinous act of bombing the federal building in Oklahoma City.Three Hindu terrorists have been recently arrested in Indore, India for bombings in Gujarat and elsewhere. They did not hesitate to kill innocents just to blame Muslims.Baruch Goldstein, the fanatic Jew, killed nearly The Army of God fanatics bombed numerous abortion clinics in America.In Northern Ireland Catholics and Protestants fought a 400 year old sectarian war.The Basque separatists have been responsible for numerous bombings in Spain during the last 50 years or so.This guy keeps confirming that he is an idiot.

  • hsnkhwj

    Deb Chatterji: That name is anonymous to most readers as any other name. No one demanded to know whether he was an atheist. He mentioned it himself because most Hindus who profess to be athiests are so disgusted with urine drinking, cow dung painting of homes etc etc. But then such individuals revert quickly to Hinduism when others point out the ills of Hinduism.Yet, he keeps worrying about other people’s (who post here) religion. The next he will ask for our social security numbers, credit card numbers, PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION (PIN) numbers etc. etc.Many Jewish people of conscience have written in support of Muslims here. Many Christians here have written in support of the Dalits (the untouchables) of India. I could go on and on.This guy is impossible! He can not swallow the fact that it is the message and not the messenger that is important to all of us.

  • ASTORIA

    Halozcel- AS LONG AS THE LAW OF THE LAND IS UPHELD- How you missed that is a mystery- but you seem inclined to missing the obvious. All politics are local.

  • ASTORIA

    To come on a thread where a man of honor such as Colin Powell is being applauded for declaring what is obvious to most-(unless blinded by fear and hatred) namely- that being a Muslim is a perfectly acceptable thing to be in America, just as being a Hindu, Jew, Buddhist, Pagan- As for Sharia in the UK- the Archbishop, similar to Colin Powell, actually- stated that, the Jews in UK have been using their supplemental (not mandated or superceding) court system of Beth Din for decades- and Muslims should be allowed to use their own sensitve approach to CIVIL matters such as marriage,divorce, and business dealings- AS LONG AS THE LAW OF THE LAND IS UPHELD- Go peddle your alarmist fearmongering elsewhere Deb.

  • DebChatterjee

    “To come on a thread where a man of honor such as Colin Powell is being applauded for declaring what is obvious to most….”It is obvious to most that indeed Colin Powell is a great American. But while your misplaced euphoria about Powell’s endorsement of a Muslim US President can bring honey to your ears and high hopes for Islam, it will not wash. I cannot see how majority Americans would accept a US President who is obligated to believe in Quran [009:029] that calls for subjugation of Jews and Christians. Islam is a barbaric religion: General Colin Powell is trying to be politically correct.

  • Arif2

    “People in the West do not know about Hinduism. Now they do. Thanks to Deb Chatterji.”Funny one, did you know that People in the West did not know about Islam, now they do.Thanks to 9/11.Also, also, People in the West did not know about the war mongering looter of desert Arabia and his Jewish hatred, now they do, thanks to 9/11.

  • hsnkhwj

    Arif2: Did you read this?CAIR-LA WINS JUDGMENT AGAINST THEATER THAT CANCELED SCREENING – TOP(ANAHEIM, CA, 10/27/08) The Greater Los Angeles Area Chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-LA) announced today that it won a judgment against Starplex Cinemas, which cancelled a contract with the Muslim civil rights group after caving in to right-wing pressure three days before a scheduled screening of the documentary “USA vs. Al-Arian” in April of this year.Right-wing groups demanded that the theater not screen the documentary, which highlights the injustices faced by former Florida professor Dr. Sami Al-Arian. THE ANTI-MUSLIM AND ANTI-CHRISTIAN BIGOTS ARE BEING MONITORED CLOSELY.

  • hsnkhwj

    Deb Chatterji wrote:”Islam admits polygamy. Quran [004:003] allows upto 4 wives. The law of the land (in UK) does not allow polygamy. Jewish laws in UK do not break the ban on polygamy that Sharia would allow.”******************************************************************************Did you forget that Hindu god, Ram’s father, Raja Dashrath had four wives and Ram’s brother, Laxman was his step brother?How many people know that in the Himalayan region, Hindus still practice polyandry? Polyandry is the system,in which a woman marries several men at the same time? Go to Dehradun where you will find the Khasas and koltas still practicing polyandry.Polyandry is quite common in Tibet also.Go to the State of Tamil Nadu where the Toda’s also practice polyandry.You can read all this in the book, Himalayan Polyandry, by D. N. Majumdar, a fellow Bengali of Deb Chatterji.Hindu mythology allows polyandry. The legend says that Pandavas, the five brothers, went to the jungle hunting. There they found a girl. They brought her home. At the entrance, they called their mother, “Look what we brought”. The mother was busy, so she yelled back, “whatever you got, share it.” Hence polyandry.People in the West do not know about Hinduism. Now they do. Thanks to Deb Chatterji.