In Guns We Trust

Among those applauding the Supreme Court’s recent 5-4 ruling seconding the Second Amendment are the good folks at Windsor Hills … Continued

Among those applauding the Supreme Court’s recent 5-4 ruling seconding the Second Amendment are the good folks at Windsor Hills Baptist Church in Oklahoma City.
You can find a link to the court’s ruling on the church’s web site. It follows a brief explanation of the church’s decision to give away a gun at its annual youth conference this month.

As Dave Barry often says, I wish I were making this up.

“If Congress, back when our country was fighting for its independence, could give engraved muskets to the fifteen or so eleven- year- old boys that their teacher, Mr. Akins, led into battle against the British, then we can give away a firearm still today, especially since our Supreme Court just re-emphasized our Second Amendment rights.

Praise the Lord and pass the automatic assault rifles. One nation, under God, locked and loaded. In Guns We Trust.

Rev. Rachel Smith, whose blog “God Not Guns” is a project of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, calls it gundamentalism.

“America’s gun culture is marked by zeal closely akin to that of religious fundamentalism. The gun-rights movement is built upon a system of belief that is both absolutist and aggressive. It has its sacred text, its creed, its icon and its ideology.”

And its adherents.

On the Windsor Hills web site, you’ll find a 30-minute video of highlights from the church’s 2007 youth conference. The video includes gun-battle scenes from “The Patriot,” Mel Gibson’s movie about the American Revolution. It includes scenes of the conference gun-shooting competition (cancelled this year) — boys firing automatic and semi-automatic assault rifles at last year’s shooting competition.

It also includes scenes of pastors preaching and dancing, once again proving that white men have no rhythm, in the pulpit or on the stage.

I watched the video, expecting to see some sort of wild-eyed cult of survivalist extremists. Instead I saw men and women, boys and girls eating and playing, singing and praying. I saw the good, God-fearing people who elect our presidents, fight our wars, patrol our streets and put food on our tables.

I see people who are products of our gundamentalist culture, people who drape the cross with a flag, people who believe the Second Amendment should be one of the Ten Commandments, people who seem to have more trust in guns than in God.

Watch the video and tell me what you see.

About

  • Cordy Reagan

    This is not unusual…the right wing Christian fundamentalist homeschool movement is closely allied with gun rights. It ain’t the Christ I was raised with: tolerant, loving, gentle, forgiving, non-violent. But when you have a book as big as the Bible, you can take snippets of it and fashion any kind of god you want. These fundamentalists love the old testament because there’s homosexuality, plenty of violence, incest, polygamy, betrayal, everything they’re not allowed to watch on TV.

  • Joseph

    Its more about history and patriotism than the ‘objects of death’ to this group. These people feel their rights are threatened by the left and judicial activists, rights earned by ancestors through guns and protected daily by the threat of guns.Its not the same as say, gangster rappers, or illegal immigrants who often have unregistered firearms, whose obsession with guns is about harm to others and superiority. These people are more interested in holding the line on gun RIGHTS than holding the guns themselves, that seems quite clear to me. With the threat of crimes from gangs and illegal immigrants escalating daily, why target these people for patriotic side of firearms? Long live the Bill of Rights.

  • DocChuck

    If there is anything more dangerous than an ignorant religious fundamentalist, it is an ignorant religious fundamentalist with a gun.

  • All I can say is wow

    How can people misunderstand the Bible so absolutely? How does “turn the other cheek” become “press cheek against stock”?Where does Jesus say Love the Lord and be prepared to shoot your neighbor?It is NOT in my Bible.This is just a bizzare case of the Anti-Christ settling in amoung the poor ignorant peasants who do not know what they do.

  • Bill O’Rights

    There’s plenty of us, Christian or not, who rejoice that the Bill of Rights has fangs. Smile, and pass the assault rifles. They’re not only fun, they keep the liberals stirred up!

  • mobedda

    Didn’t “Family Guy” preemptively send this up with their “Passion of The Christ II: Crucify This” bit?Truth, it turns out, is stranger [and a heck of a lot scarier] than fiction…

  • Tom

    Being born in Oklahoma, nothing surprises me when it comes to the religious fanatics that live there. I remember how the Baptists told me to not vote for JFK because he would use the military to install the Pope as the leader of the country. Oklahoma is the navel under the Bible belt.

  • Sunny

    In my mind organized religion is the plague that has negatively impacted all walks of human life.

  • charles henney

    Jesus was alive when he said he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.true children of God who understand John 3:16 live by this word because he did not not come to condemn the world but to save the world through him.Let all men be liars and God be the one telling the truth.

  • opinionator

    The NRA and Christian fundamentalism are a match made in heaven – the heaven of the Old Testament and an ever-wrathful Jehovah….ready to strike down all perceived foes with equal impunity. There’s just something childishly petulant about this whole overblown ‘right to bear arms’ craziness that has little or nothing to do with original idea behind the right to bear arms – which at the time was based on the defense of one’s country. Now it’s an NRA driven compulsion.The weapons industry as a whole is one huge and mighty powerful lobby in Washington, with private gun ownership only one dimension – it’s no coincidence the the USA is the world’s largest arms and weapons supplier, or that the Pentagon budget continues to swell out of control on an annual basis. The NRA pushes 2nd ammendment paranoia and gun-withdrawal fears like Baptists push the fear of a fiery inferno for all eternity. Again, little to do with gun ownership and everything to do with absolute political control. And we see in the news that for the first time, guns and the general public will soon be paired up and traveling to national parks together – over the strong objections of law enforcement agents that routinely work these federally managed parks. Where are the gutless legislators that we elected in all of this? Being steamrolled by the NRA apparently. It’s just one more recipe for disaster – as more and more states vote into law wide-spread concealed weapons permits. And a form of national insanity…..

  • Interesting

    To Enemy of the State – Wow, a surprisingly eloquent and well written response. That is certainly a pleasant surprise on an internet comments thread.To Joseph: Allowing myself the freedom to be far less eloquent – You are an idiot. “Illegal Immigrants … whose obsession with guns is about harm to others and superiority”? Seriously? Many illegal immigrants are struggling to feed themselves, and to send food and money back to their family. I think you are far less of a concern to them. At least, until bigots like the nut-job militia who take it upon themselves to “police” the border come calling.

  • Frank US

    Do John McCain or conservative republicans respect the moral foundation of this country? The U.S. Constitution was designed to protect the people of America from misguided government.U.S. Constitution: Amendment I – Freedom of ReligionAmendment IV – Search and seizureAmendment X – Powers of the States and PeopleAmendment VIII – Cruel and Unusual punishmentJohn McCain and the conservative republicans are destroying the moral foundations of our country. I urge you to keep this in mind in the coming election as we rebuild our nation together by voting Democrat.

  • Tom3

    Further proof that the Religious Reich are NOT real Christians.Jesus would NEVER approve of this.That church is not Christian, the are political ideologues disguised as religion.Phony Christians can all go to Hell.

  • Dave

    The Old Testament is a cancerous disease, as far as I’m concerned. If Christians were actually interested in following the teachings of Christ, the world would be a much better place and so many of the problems we face would simply disappear. But as it is, so many Christians are merely self-worshiping egomaniacs who would rather destroy the planet for their own glorification than discipline themselves to be decent people.

  • Jackal

    Ok, I don’t know how this got to be a theologial blog, but: God did not turn the other cheek when the Egyptians chased the Jews into the desert. He slew them. Not much to argue with there. Some of you morons just don’t get it. The bad guys will ALWAYS have guns no matter what laws are passed ever. Are you just gonna turn the other cheek while criminals rape your daughters/wives and sons? If you are not armed, then you are in line to be a victim, begging for mercy, from the scum of the earth.

  • Anonymous

    “Where does Jesus say Love the Lord and be prepared to shoot your neighbor?It is NOT in my Bible.”It is a matter of self defense and self preservation.No where in the Bible does it teach that a Christian cannot defend themselves against an enemy. If you want passiveness 100% of the time you need to move to an Island where there are naïve natives……..but come to think of it they even have common sense to defend themselves against an enemy.I am all for owning a gun to protect oneself.

  • Rebel Yell

    This country was created behind the barrel of a gun and in the womb of religion. It so happens that these are two of the issues that make libs most apoplectic. Guns are good, noble, and life-protecting. Liberal anti-gun fascists need to get over their gun-phobia. Guns don’t kill people; people do. As for Christ, he would favor guns — as he did capitol punishment — because they protect the innocent. It is a necessary tool for law enforcement and a civil society. It is no coincidence that Stalin, Mao, and Hitler ruled over countries that did not have gun rights. Why is it that liberals cannot learn from history? Is it a lack of intelligence or simply being a prisoner to a radical ideology?

  • Martiniano

    An email post on their site says they have “reconciled” gun ownership with Christianity.Exactly like the way the Taliban have reconciled gun ownership with Islam.

  • James Jenkins

    “Thou Shalt Not Kill!” I am sorry, was that a mistype on God’s part? Was it supposed to read “Thou Shalt Kill”?Yeah…that’s the ticket…come to church and get a good deal on tools to kill others with! Besides once they fill you with hate for gays, muslims, and others, you will need some tools to carry out God’s Cleansing of America Plan, as interpreted by the Rev. Hatemonger!Looks like Fundamentalist Christian Terrorists Factory is open for business!One of the many reasons I no longer attend church. It conflicts with good moral living and basic common sense!

  • Aunt Beatitude

    …blessed are the meek…There is nothing and can be nothing meek about pointing a gun. If you are a Christian then you strive to be Christlike. Christ has said with His own words that you must strive to be meek.How did Christ protect himself in Gesthemene? Do you recall what he said to the man who pulled a nice and cut off a soldier’s ear in order to protect Jesus? What did Jesus say?Is that not what you should say if YOU are a Christian?I must say that the chubby white families on the “church” website are cute as cuddly bears. Why would they want to kill people in the name of Christ?

  • JBE

    What sword would Jesus carry?Would Jesus hand out swords at the temple steps from which he chased the money changers and sacrifice sellers?Who would Jesus hate or fear so much that he’d need a gun? He had the Romans army all around him and never lifted a sword.People who mix violence and christiantity are sinners. Their idea to mix hate and violence with the bible is an abomination to the love and forgiveness, understanding, and teaching PRACTICED AND NOT JUST TALKED ABOUT BY THE CHRISTFundamentalists of ANY religion = TALIBAN!!!

  • mibrooks27

    The author of this skreed makes leaps of logic and fact that would be worthy of any NeoCon or Bushie. Please. In the Bible, there are numerous stories of hunting, especially of deer. What do you suppose they used? It was the latest in weaponry available at that time, a bow and arrow, the arrows being tipped with iron points. There is nothing wrong with hunting and this anti-gun example of modern day yellow journalism is nothing more than a thinly veiled and intellectually dishonest attack on all firearms.

  • Mike

    I’m a crazy lefty social liberal and have guns. Conservatives need to think outside the little closet that they’ve squeezed themselves into so nicely. If anyone comes canvassing my property on behalf of the RNC they better be wearing their running shoes :) (I swear I’m kidding here)Mixing guns and religion is always a bad idea. Religion is a method of control and guns are a means to exert that control. When zealots are told to take up arms they will likely follow. That is different from home defense or the joy of target shooting.

  • DM – NYC

    Leviticus 3:12 said we all should pack a Glock 9.”Blessed are the thoroughly armed for they shall live in fear all the days of their lives.”Buncha of Bible-bangin’ Bush-lovin’ ignoramuses.

  • Imhotep

    In post World War I Germany a large number of civilians retained their military issue rifles and side arms. The NSDAP (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) gained seats in the Reichstag (parliament)by winning votes. They became the conservative response to communism, labor unions, liberalism, homosexuality, and any other perceived ailment to the society. Hitler was seen as the moral icon to a return to morality. But at such a price.Ultimately guns will not protect anyone. There will always be someone else who has a more powerful weapon (AK-47′s, M-1 Garand’s and such weapons can shoot through walls). I have no problem with the private ownership of guns, but I’m a firm believer in laws such as one they had in California that mandated a minimum 3 year jail term for using a firearm in a crime (this even included showing the weapon).Sadly people drag religion into the justification of anything (the inquisition, the persecution of various races, religions, sexual orientations) and seem to forget that it was capitol punishment that crucified Christ.

  • K-Romulus

    So, does the blog author thinks his article is “balanced” when he describes one video and then conducts an in-depth interview with a gun-control theologian (who insists that the government impose her gun-control dogma on others)?Did the blog author even try to interview the pastor of the church he is ridiculing to actually get, you know, their side of the story beyond an amateurish internet video that involved more than just guns? Any answers as to why the shooting competition was “canceled” this year? No, it’s much better to be snarky and curry favor with “right thinking” gun control ideologues (for whatever personal reasons the author may have).

  • Francisco

    Buy a gun, protect your family.

  • silence309

    Rebel Yell:”It is no coincidence that Stalin, Mao, and Hitler ruled over countries that did not have gun rights. Why is it that liberals cannot learn from history?”This is what you learned from your study of history? That those three men came to power and initiated crazy policies because their countries had no gun rights? That is quite possibly the most ludicrous assertion I have ever heard. Let me guess, you agree with GWB that the real lesson from Vietnam was not that it was a mistake to go in, but that it was a mistake to leave? When you cherry-pick historical facts, you can justify anything, just like with the Bible and statistics. Hitler was a vegetarian, so let me guess, vegetarians are evil too?”Guns are good, noble, and life-protecting.”Noble? Life protecting? You seem blissfully unaware that American gun-owners are FAR more likely to have their guns 1) used against them, or 2) used in an accidental shooting (usually involving children), then they are to successfully defend themselves with it. And if you argue that other nations or terrorists have them, so we need them too, I will point out that regulating civilian use of guns has nothing to do with the government’s possession of guns.”As for Christ, he would favor guns — as he did capitol punishment — because they protect the innocent.”Have you ever actually read the Gospels? Have you ever heard the Biblical story about ‘turning the other cheek?’ Jesus’s entire message consisted of 1) giving away all your possessions, and 2) roaming around and preaching the word of God. This is why liberals get so “apoplectic” about religious nuts with guns. Because they completely misread a 2000-year old text and use it to justify a policy divorced from rationality and obviously contrary to the public good. “It is a necessary tool for law enforcement and a civil society.”Once again, civilian gun laws have NOTHING to do with law enforcement. And to say that they are necessary for a civil society is completely contrary to our experience. Have you looked at the crime rates (specifically violent crimes) for…well…just about every other country in the developed world? We are one of the most violent nations on Earth. Why do you think that is? Because we are naturally more violent? Or because every other developed country has strict gun laws?You ask whether our beliefs are based on a lack of intelligence. Well, I am one of those ignorant liberals (with a JD and a Masters in history), and I am prepared to argue with you on this subject. To quote GWB: “Bring it on.” I will show you EXACTLY how intelligent we are.

  • Roy Forrester

    “Guns do not kill people, people do” Fact, people with guns kill more people that people without guns. I thought all you good Christians believed in the bible. Does not one of the Ten Commandments in the bible state “Thou shalt not kill” no ifs buts or any other condition. Ergo if you kill then you are NOT a Christian or perhaps these so called Christians should change their religion!

  • forty-six&two

    Rebel Yell wrote:Guns are good, noble, and life-protecting. Liberal anti-gun fascists need to get over their gun-phobia. Guns don’t kill people; people do.Well now, actually, it’s not that guns don’t kill people, it’s that people WITH guns kill people. Don’t think so? Try to envision a gang drive by where the gangsters throw knives or sharp objects at their victims. Likelihood of successfully killing someone: Slim.

  • monel

    This entire argument is simply ridiculous. This is the year, 2008. Our lives are shaped by the environment (including technology) in which we live. It is not shaped by the oral and translated stories from a illiterate, semi-nomadic tribe that existed in the ancient middle east. Firearms are a product of modernity and not of any scripture. Unlike what some of the gun-nuts in Texas like to believe, ownership of a firearm is NOT a God given right. It is a right allowed to Americans by the Constitution, like it or not. So the idea of promoting gun ownership through an institution that is supposed to uphold the teachings of one of histories greatest pacifists is ridiculous beyond reason. Let us only hope that no one in the congregation dies from someone cleaning their weapon.

  • Beretta Racer

    silence309: Noble? Life protecting? You seem blissfully unaware that American gun-owners are FAR more likely to have their guns 1) used against them, or 2) used in an accidental shooting (usually involving children), then they are to successfully defend themselves with it. And if you argue that other nations or terrorists have them, so we need them too, I will point out that regulating civilian use of guns has nothing to do with the government’s possession of guns.Same tired, made up, Brady Bunch horse dung. I own, carry (legally), have used successfully in self defense, compete with firearms in organized matches, have kids that have NOT accidentally shot themselves AND I am very well trained.

  • Roy

    cu’d be they need ta keep the mesicans outa their church

  • Whoa!

    That is one creepy video. These folks are not Christians. Not just the kids practicing machine gun technique or the assault rifle give-away either. The part with the old mad hitting golf balls off the boys butt didn’t play to well either.

  • faithfulservant3

    Jesus Christ of Nazareth “abolished death” (2 Timothy 1:10). By dying once “for all” (Hebrews 10:10)He demonstrated that life is more precious than anything. By giving His life He gave all of us life. He set an example that all should sacrifice their lives to prove that their faith is authentic and foremost in their lives. Faith is life. The sacrifice validates that death truly has been abolished. This is the key to spreading the Word.Jesus’ way emphasizes that “God is love,” and that compassion and forgiveness are at the heart of proving to the world that He is real and His word is true.Killing people with guns is diametrically opposed to everything that He stands for. If you really believe in heaven why are you so afraid of death?There are no countries as man knows them. This type of hyper-patriotism divides instead of unifies. The gospel is meant to unify. My country is the body of Christ and my flag is the cross.

  • akmzrazor

    Since the supreme courts decision I’ve taken notice that people tend to read into any comment their worst fears about their side of the issue. When people don’t like guns they read an article like this a make the giant and irrationale leap that the only reason this church would be doing this is to plant the seeds of some Christian Army. Those who are pro-gun read it as radical left attempt slander anything that has to do with lawful gun ownership. In Sense21 we called this a state of throwness. A conditioned triggered by certain words or subjects that throws your brain into a mode where you only see and hear what you are upset about. I’d like to try and break this cycle by suggesting you follow this simple excersise. If you read an article that causes your temper to flare or emotions to soar, before you start blurting out the first thing that comes to your mind, ask yourself these two questions. Why does this upset me? Is that what they really said or did I read somthing into it? If you still feel upset, then by all means wail away about your issue.

  • Anonymous

    Give me a break!~ Try facing a loaded Ak-47 with 60 rounds with only a glock or any other handgun and see how fast you change your mind about owning a gun to defend your self.I suggest that you send the day in the “hood” and grow some “balls.”

  • Kacoo

    You don’t need to go to church to shoot a machine gun. There are places in Dallas where you can rent one at a range and shoot. It burns through the ammo pretty fast though. The machine gun shown is an Uzi, made in Israel. Most fundamentalist churches are extremely pro-Israel. It’s a very good weapon. In the early years of Vietnam soliders had to carry two M16s to every firefight because they jammed so badly.

  • Martiniano

    Well I watched the video. It differs little from the military training videos that we see coming out of Al Qaeda. Young people being drilled with a mishmash of nationalism and religion. As is usual in Churches today, very little about Christ and a whole lot about guns.This is a dangerous turn in Christianity in America. Their misunderstanding that America was created as a commercial endeavor and that the Revolution occured because of taxation without representation.I think we are allowing the creation of very dangerous people in these fundamentalist churches. They are people who believe with all their hearts that they are right and have God on their side. People who are quick to hate and will have the weapons and training needed to wreak havoc on our society whenever their leader calls them to arms.We would not tolerate this in a Muslim congregation. We should not tolerate it in a Christian congregation.Can someone please go teach them about Jesus?

  • silence309

    Beretta Racer:”Same tired, made up, Brady Bunch horse dung. I own, carry (legally), have used successfully in self defense, compete with firearms in organized matches, have kids that have NOT accidentally shot themselves AND I am very well trained. Well, you just convinced me. The fact that you are ‘well trained,’ have successfully used your gun in self-defense, and your kids are still alive, must mean that the statistics from the World Health Organization, the Center for Disease Control, the BATF et al, are all just so much liberal ‘horse dung.’ Let me make this clear: I never said that NO ONE has ever successfully defended themselves with a gun. I said that doing so was much less common than gun suicides, gun homicides, and gun accidents. And that is a FACT. Do I really need to start posting statistics?I tell you what, when you bring me an argument (ANY argument) that is based on logic, rationality, or facts, I will spend as much time as necessary proving you wrong. When your moronic post begins and ends with your personal experiences, you are nothing more than a waste of time.

  • Tom3

    I always wondered about that quote from Luke.It directly contradicts anything else Jesus said.Especially the “live by the sword, die by the sword” quote.I have a hunch that quote is bogus. The Bible, contrary to the beliefs of gun-toting whackos, is NOT inerrant and has many mistakes.I think this Luke quote is one of those mistakes.

  • Brambleton

    As an aside, those of you who are posting comments regarding “turning the other cheek” are completely missing the context of that scripture.During that time period, a backhand slap (with the right hand) to the face was used to signify power, authority, and dominion over the person being assaulted. However, a forehand slap to the “other cheek” (with the right hand) was a symbol of equality. Therefore, Jesus was instructing his followers to offer their “other cheek” to the Roman soldiers, thereby forcing the soldiers to understand that their assault now constituted respect and equality (rather than power and superiority).

  • silence309

    Brambleton:We may be missing the context, but we are NOT missing the point. I have no idea if what you say is true regarding a slap in the face at the time of Christ (in fact, I would be interested to hear where you got that from), but he is most assuredly saying that violence is NOT to be met with violence. Here are the two relevant verses:In the Sermon on the Mount in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus says:You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.—Matthew 5:38-42, NIVA parallel version is offered in the Sermon on the Plain in the Gospel of Luke:But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.—Luke 6:27-31. NIV

  • Anonymous

    I think guns shouldn’t be allowed for the public at all because if nobody had guns, there would be no gunshot victims and no crime related to it. If we ban guns, we ban crime, which is the right thing to do. It is really simple, if you don’t want people to kill with guns, take them away!

  • Brambleton

    Jesus tells Peter to put the sword away to fulfill the Scriptures. He clearly did not say get rid of it forever. Jesus had to die for the sins of man since mankind was incapable of paying for his own sin. Sure, Christ could have instigated a violent revolt, but to do so would have ignored his reason for being.

  • Beretta Racer

    silence309: “And that is a FACT. Do I really need to start posting statistics?”Post away, friend. As long as they are not from the Brady Bunch and the World Health Org. Both known for their ant-gun positions.

  • Anonymous

    Faste wrote, “If you remember the rest, Jesus was taken into custody and eventually crucified. This was the moment Jesus could have used violence to save himself, but He did not.Cherry picking the bible is a continual theme I run into when debating christians, who seem to know less about their bible than many atheists”. The text that you referenced has nothing to do with Jesus’ decision to us violence or not use violence to save himself. His choice was to do his Father’s (God) will by fulfilling what was foretold in the old and new testament of his forthcoming crucifixion. To alter the events in any way would have changed history and meant that Jesus would have been disobedient to the will of God for his life. In essence salvation would not have come about had Jesus acted anyway other then what he did in the garden of Gethsemane.Funny how this Christian knows more then you claimed that Christians know about the Bible. I can assure you that I know more about the Bible then you do as an Atheist.

  • K-Romulus

    The “gun more likely to be used against you” and “more accidents than defensive use” canard fails on numerous levels. Assuming EVERY murder involving a gun in the US was “against the gun’s owner” (that’s around 15000 total gun-involved murders per year), this number pales in comparison to the 1.5 MILLION defensive uses of guns that pro-gun-control researchers found when they conducted their own survey to try to “prove” that no one used a gun defensively. Add the suicides and fatal accidents (another 20,0000 and 1000, respectively, per year), along with the roughly 50,000 other “gun related injuries” per year to broaden the anti-gun-owner statistics pool, and you still don’t reach 1.5 million, let alone 100,000.As a lapsed Lutheran, I find this whole ideological purity fight on the blog here pretty funny. But since it rivals the Sunni/Shia intensity, it is also scary in a way. I think I’ll keep my guns just in case, thank you.

  • Reality Bites

    “Anonymous:I think guns shouldn’t be allowed for the public at all because if nobody had guns, there would be no gunshot victims and no crime related to it. If we ban guns, we ban crime, which is the right thing to do. It is really simple, if you don’t want people to kill with guns, take them away!”That would be paradise! But instead you have probably made the most naive statement possible.

  • Brambleton

    Silence,The Sermon on the Mount from which that passage is taken deals with personal conduct. Christ is clearing up a confusion that had led people to think that taking vengeance was proper for both an individual as well as the local government.Consider the choice of words used by Christ. Several times in the rest of the Sermon on the Mount, Christ used this same “you have heard it said” figure of speech to straighten out misunderstandings or falsehoods being taught by the religious leaders of the times. Contrast this to Christ’s use of the phrase “it is written” when He was appealing to the Scriptures for authority (for example, see Matthew 4 where on three occasions during His temptation by the devil, Christ answered each one of the devil’s lies or misquotes from Scripture with the words: “it is written”). To further underscore the point that Christ was correcting the religious leaders on their teaching that “an eye for an eye” applies to private revenge, consider that in the same Sermon, Christ strongly condemned false teaching: “Whoever therefore breaks one of the commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven…” (Matthew 5:19). Clearly, then, Christ was not teaching something different about self defense than is taught elsewhere in the Bible. Otherwise, He would be contradicting Himself for He would now be teaching men to break one of the commandments. The reference to “an eye for an eye” was taken from Exodus 21:24-25 which deals with how the magistrate must deal with a crime. Namely, the punishment must fit the crime. The religious leaders of Christ’s day had twisted the passage that applied to the government and misused it as a principle of personal revenge.

  • Anonymous

    Enough said, this is a good topic that is not for the weak.Peacemakers, such as Jesus were not weak and encouraged self defense. However, when possible it is always better to settle a disagreement with someone in a non-violent manner. That will not always be the case, especially in this day and age and if you think it is bad now, wait, the worst is yet to come. Even Jesus knew that there wold be times that we could not live at peace with everyone, Romans 12:18,(18) If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Note, Jesus says “if it be possible,” depicting

  • Peter Harkins

    Dave Barry often said “I am not making this up”, not “I wish I were making this up”.

  • Anonymous

    Anonymous said: Romans 12:18,(18) If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Note, Jesus says “if it be possible,” depicting that it will not always be possible”First and foremost, Jesus DID NOT SAY THIS, Paul wrote this to the Christians in Rome. Paul is not Jesus. Paul persecuted Jesus and oversaw the death by stoning of Stephen. Paul is a murderer who never faced justice for what he did.As for Christian stance on self-defense: As Steven was being stoned he said (Acts 7:60) “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” As Jesus was being led away by Roman soldiers, and Simon Peter had cut off a soldier’s ear Jesus said (John 18:11) But Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword back into its sheath! Am I not to drink the cup that the Father has given me?” Self defense?

  • Robert B

    Anon, we are all “murderers” and those of us who trust Christ know that He took the punishment for our sins. It was all of us who deserved to be on the cross. Paul was used by God to write about a third of the NT so I think his Epistles are worth listening to. Your attack on Paul is bizarre.But if you want a quote from Jesus, try this one: ‘But now let the one who has a moneybag take it and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who had no sword sell his cloak and buy one’” (Luke 22:36). That’s right — Jesus wanted to be sure His disciples went out properly outfitted, and was more concerned that they be armed than that they be warm.God is a believer in the 2nd Amendment.

  • mibrooks27

    Roy Forrester writes “…people with guns kill more people that people without guns…” This is simply not true. That you can even write such nonsense without being called for it, shows just how intellectual dishonest and impaired we have become in this whole debate. PLEASE, before uttering any more nonsense CHECK YOUR FACTS. The Department Of Justice publish annual statistics about homicides, other crimes, firearms, etc. Here is their web site for firearm stats:This reveals a few things that run contrary to everything being passed off as common wisdom by the true believers in the gun control crowd.The upshot of this is that the “true believers”, the fanatics that will not be swayed by logic and cold hard facts, are the gun control fanatics, not Christian’s or other religious groups.

  • Mr Mark

    Let’s look on the bright side – most of the Xians arming themselves to the teeth are only going to do harm to themselves, their family members and their fellow Xians who live within a 25-mile radius. Make that a 3-mile radius, given today’s gas prices.Let the yahoos have their phallic symbols. The day they can afford to visit Orange County with the intent of harming me and mine is the day I’ll worry. One doesn’t fear a yahoo with a gun when they have to sell the gun to afford the ticket to CA. Certainly, no non-yahoo is looking to even visit their states, let alone try to pry their penile substitutes from their Hestonian “cold, dead hands.”The yahoos have met the enemy and it is them.[sarcasm off]

  • Q-bert

    to Fate:well yeah if they didn’t cherry pick they’d be completely incompatible with society. stoning homosexuals at will, selling their daughters into slavery, etc. I still don’t know why Jesus would have his disciples arm themselves if he didn’t intend them to bear witness to his martyrdom. All fall short of the glory of god after all.I support gun rights because I am not an anti-social theologically or ideologically motivated nut, who recognizes the sancitity of human life and the need to protect it. and when those who are come a gunnin’ for our hard won societal advancement you will need people like me. hate it all you like, but it’s a fact. You dont really think that the police, military, and feds are secularists do you?

  • MrsDocChuck

    Sadly, my husband knows himself only too well.

  • Anonymous

    test

  • s

    Guns or no guns, true Christians will inherit the earth. In world war 3, unbelievers, even those who are watching TVs comfortably in their houses (w/o guns) will be wiped out off the earth.Two world wars have already passed and the same Christian nation (with guns) win both. A third is coming and it would be the same story but this time, a lot of unbelievers will be wiped out. Add the 2 world wars and multiply them a thousand times.God is God and he is no God if all the atheists we see here today would still exist after world war 3. “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God”

  • JT

    I don’t miss David’s regular Christian bashing articles in Memphis’ Commercial Appeal. Methinks that David is a Moonbat LIBERAL first, and Christian second… or third.

  • Anonymous

    third and formost, an IDIOT.

  • Anonymous

    third and foremost, an IDIOT.

  • Anonymous

    We need to outlaw murder, rape, and all kinds of assault and battery immediately. By making these heinous crimes illegal, we will stop all criminals from committing them, thus safeguarding our future generations.Think of the children!

  • Enemy Of The State

    I should say up front that I own two handguns for home defense, both registered, and I’ve never been against private gun ownership.But when you make guns quasi-religious icons and tie them to Christianity, you have in effect created totem-like status for an object of death. I’m no theologian, but that seems to be a direct contradiction to the spirit of scripture, both old and new testaments: Revering any object other than god is idolatry; and openly promoting what is essentially an instrument of death (for kids, no less!) certainly isn’t congruent with the words or actions of Jesus.Again, nothing against guns, and nothing against religion. But I think mixing the two of them in this way subverts Christianity in a dangerous way.

  • Anne

    For clarity’s sake, put an end-quote on this: “If Congress, back when our country was fighting for its independence, could give engraved muskets to the fifteen or so eleven- year- old boys that their teacher, Mr. Akins, led into battle against the British, then we can give away a firearm still today, especially since our Supreme Court just re-emphasized our Second Amendment rights.”I’m pretty sure “Praise the Lord and pass the automatic assault rifles. One nation, under God, locked and loaded. In Guns We Trust.” is the blogger’s satire, not part of the quote.

  • Lu Franklin

    One should never be surprised by the ignorance and stupidity of religious fundamentalists.

  • Q-bert

    To Fate.Luke 22:36-38There you go, Jesus himself telling his disciples to be armed./not a christian.

  • Berett Racer

    “America’s gun culture is marked by zeal closely akin to that of religious fundamentalism. The gun-rights movement is built upon a system of belief that is both absolutist and aggressive. It has its sacred text, its creed, its icon and its ideology.”Sacred text? Creed? Icon and Ideology?

  • Garak

    The first Christians were pacifists. Looks like this nutcase would reject those Christians closest in time to Christ.

  • Good Grief!

    ANONYMOUS: No, it was not my best possible response by “telling someone to leave the country the best possible response to being told only in three countries in the whole world do ordinary citizens carry guns,” but often times people say things on these blogs that should not be said. Things are said without giving it a lot of thought, said in anger, despair, tiredness, disappointment, or just being in a bad or non-trusting mood at the time. My time this morning when posting was done as short-lived non-trusting mood. I don’t need you to correct me, I am an adult and know how to correct myself as most mature individuals do. We shouldn’t hold people to “everything” that they say. When seeking someone’s deep feelings about an issue or statement is to go beyond the “layers,” i.e., anger, fear, non-trusting, etc And look for “consistency” on the subject matter and in practice in their lives.

  • Bob from LI

    I scanned many of the posts here and there are a few things missing:Oh, and Jesus never had a gun or any other weapon but the truth…and I’m not a Christian so don’t go ‘shooting off your mouth’ at me. I am a gun crime victim. I did not use violence in protecting myself. I bought a new wallet. I was out $20 and I needed to renew my license anyway.

  • Gun Totin’ non-Christian

    I honestly don’t care what you all do with the Bible or the Ten Commandments. Just don’t misinterpret, maim or delete the Bill of Rights, for anyone of any faith in the U.S. That would include the Second Amendment, the way it was understood then. Good luck on that WWIII thing and all.

  • Reader in Houston

    I’m in basic agreement with the comments of “Enemy of the State”. Guns plus Christianity as a new religion was not what God had in mind.The only reason I could envision for why some of these folks cling to their guns is that it’s a sense of power they can fall back on. God is too mysterious for them and the way God chooses to act – sometimes too late (as in, for example, an innocent bystander who dies by a murderer’s bullet and is then left for dead to suffer for hours) – makes such folks want a way to protect themselves reliably. And I have to admit, with today’s law enforcement officers and departments stretched to the limit dealing with everything from the “war on terror” to the illegal immigration issue, one worries that a call to 911 won’t be answered in time, much less one’s prayers.However … to hold a firearm as a sacred symbol as many of these folks do is wrong. And I feel sorriest for the young people who are indoctrinated in this way of thinking and looking at the world and at God. For such youngsters, utterly dependent on their parents, they’ll practically have to wait until they turn 18 before they can strike out on their own and reject their parents’/communities’ teachings wholesale.I also feel sorry for those living in such communities that disagree that guns and the church don’t mix. They must certainly be getting ostracized.

  • s

    I’ve never seen a set of preachers preach SO GOOD. I hope people can compare it with how different it is from the “pope centered” Catholic World Youth Day. I’ve checked their website and can’t see a single preaching. It’s all about the pope, the ceremonies and eating “holy” biscuits. And of course abortion which according to statistics, more Catholics engage in it.This is not to malign catholics but I hope they can see what’s wrong with catholicism. Satan is a “smooth operator”, a wise deceiver.The words of Apostle Paul come to mind :Thanks David for the VIDEO.

  • Modern Man

    Isn’t it a bit odd to anyone that we do not have a “God given” right to food or shelter, but we do have a “God given” right to own guns? Perhaps this church should spend more time and resources on feeding and housing the poor, You know, like Christ did! I don’t recall the part of the bible where Jesus used the tithe money to give swords and spears to the children of Jerusalem.

  • Youngj1

    Can anyone explain the logic behind a church of any denomination promoting the use of weapons? Sincerely, what is the link?

  • s

    These youths are taught that it is alright to be a soldier. A soldier and at the same time a GODLY SOLDIER. Without the American soldiers before us, this world has long been ruled by either Hitler, Lenin, or Hirohito or all the idiots combined. We should be thankful for this church who encourage godliness in the military and not the opposite. Military in the hands of the UNGODLY (or false religions) is a very dangerous thing. A few years from now, the world will experience it fist hand.

  • mce1006

    Modern Man commented:

  • mibrooks27

    Seala: And only an idiot would think that the statistical data demonstrates anything like that. The data, in fact, demonstrates nothing. 85% of U.S. homicides are gang related. This is a socio-economic problem created by our being a racist society, by not proving schools and jobs and opportunities for minority youth, by our disasterous permitting a flood of illegal immigrants (35% of all homicides are directly traceable to those illegals that compose less than 1% of the U.S. population). The solution is pretty obvious. Spend the money to provide jobs and education for inner city youth. Encourage intact families from Mexico and Central Amercia to immigrate and grant green cards and amnesty to those here now and, at the same time, actively seek out and deport the criminal element that came in with the desparalety poor, especially any and all single males.

  • Anonymous

    In how many countries in the world do ordinary citizens carry guns to protect themselves? How many countries in the world have history of school or college kids going on a murderous rampage with guns?

  • Tom3

    I didn’t get an engraved rifle when I was eleven years old and a webelo scout.We Blow Scouts. – the scoutmaster’s motto.Although we DID get to shoot 22s at scout camp when I was a boy scout.And I got to wear a cool forragiere with my khakis because I volunteered as a den chief.Almost followed the scout path right into the military. Thats why they have scouts, you know.I sang in the church choir – baritone. We had wa white church with stained glass and a choir loft. But my church never handed out guns. They were too busy preaching about loving your neighbor.Later on, the church bus took a hard RIGHT turn and I fell out the window.

  • Bernard

    Bob from LI: Regarding #4… I guess the “Bushmaster” among other weapons that were stolen new, from a Seattle gun shop by the DC snipers back in 2002 doesn’t apply then?Facts Bob, get the facts.

  • Brian

    (Still trying to understand why an American fundamentalist convention includes automatic firearm practice, military obstacle courses, and songs about the immorality and cheapness of women; If someone were to compare this convention’s video to Muslim extremist training camps, would WHBC realize where the similarities lie?)If only the extremists/fundamentalists of the globe could fight each other exclusively, and leave the rest of us in peace.

  • Seala

    mibrooks27: wrote Rubbish!!!the murder rate in the US is over 4 times higher than that of Australia and New ZealandAnd the murder rate using guns is 10 times that of Australia and nearly 20 times that of New Zealand. (NationMaster) Gundamentalism sums up everything that has gone wrong with American Christianity

  • Anonymous

    In how many countries in the world do ordinary citizens carry guns to protect themselves? 3:50 AM

  • Tom

    Reminds me of the Archie Bunker solution to airline highjackings: just give every passenger a handgun as they board the aircraft.Being born in Oklahoma, nothing surprises me about the religious right and their warped views. From the state that gave us Oral Roberts and Billy James Hargis.

  • Seala

    mibrooks27:

  • Anonymous

    “The words of Apostle Paul come to mind :To apply it the the Catholic church only is an understatemnt.

  • Anonymous

    Anonymous 25/7/08 6:02 AM —Is telling someone to leave the country the best possible response to being told only in three countries in the whole world do ordinary citizens carry guns? that an ordinary gun carrying Christian is something of a paradox?Have you heard of Christian hypocrisy and self-righteousness? Jesus condemned it.

  • Seala

    Seala, “the murder rate in the US is over 4 times higher than that of Australia and New Zealand…..no true Christian would carry a gun.”I am in New Zealand and glad to be so. And every Christian has the right to evaluate behaviour as to how it matches against how the Bible states Christians should live. Just as lying or stealing would not be appropriate Christian behaviour neither do I think carrying a gun would be.

  • Sam

    mibrooks27 writes:”This reveals a few things that run contrary to everything being passed off as common wisdom by the true believers in the gun control crowd.False. The data you refer to notes that less than 10% of of all NON-FATAL violent crime involved a fire arm. In 2006, 68% of all murders were carried out using a firearm.

  • Anonymous

    11.25pm wrote We need to outlaw murder, rape, and all kinds of assault and battery immediately. By making these heinous crimes illegal, we will stop all criminals from committing them, thus safeguarding our future generations.

  • s

    The wise continue to be wise while the stupid are always stupid. Let the believers own guns and the stupid unbelievers banned from having it. The world be be safer that way.Who would hand over a gun to a fool?

  • s

    The history of guns in the U.S is significant. It has freed itself from British control, slavery and basically freed the world from oppression as it turned to be a world power.New Zealand on the other hand have a different history. If not for the U.S., there is no New Zealand by now. Japan would own it by the end of WW2. If New Zealand hates guns, then good for them. It would be a different world if the U.S would hate guns. Stupidity will rule the world if that happens.The saints will rule the world as the Bible had said. If you think you’re not a saint and living the U.S, refrain from having a gun. You are NOT QUALIFIED.

  • mibrooks27

    SEALA – I never wrote that gun owners in New Zealand could carry handguns. I don’t believe that you can carry them in Austria, either, and I’m pretty sure you can’t in Sweden, since I lived there. Now, I’m one of those strange beasts in this whole debate, a liberal gun owner, and I don’t think American’s should be carrying concealed guns around either. That is just asking for trouble. But, it is quite legal in Austria, New Zealand, Sweden, and the U.S. to own and shoot a handgun. I am, and always have been, an advocate of requiring periodic testing of gun owners and would even require steel gun safes, with ammunition and forearms being locked up separately, just as they do in Sweden and every other civilized country where citizens can legally own handguns (except here). That simple requirement would remove most stolen firearms from the streets, which is where DOJ statistics show that gang members and other criminals get them. Handguns have two uses only in my opinion – target shooting and hunting. I own a 460 S&W Xframe that I use when elk hunting and I own a *very* expensive 9mm target pistol. I never carry them concealed, never have and never will. The only time they are out of the gun safe I keep them locked in is when I am on my way to the target range, actually target shooting or when I am hunting or, periodically, when I clean and maintain them. The NRA types don’t much like me, but neither do the gun control nuts. I figure I am one of the few sane people in the debate.

  • Paganplace

    Now, I’m not against well-regulated gun ownership, (frankly, the notion of responsible use of power of any kind is a cornerstone of my religion,) but combining a talismanic fervor about firearms in the context of a ‘religious war’ mentality really just isn’t a good idea. This issue is often polarized beyond sense. (And frankly, I suspect conservatives in government of only agreeing to measures that are enough of an inconvenience to cheese off gun owners enough to get out the vote for the next election. People don’t need enough military firearms for a day of going postal for ‘self-defense’ ..but that’s too often the mentality of the ‘gun-nuts.’ Why it should be easier to get a stockpile of such things than a driver’s license is quite beyond me. These types don’t want people to be able to make their own informed decisions about sexuality and reproduction, but automatic weapons? That’s different.

  • Neal Obstat

    Which gun would Jesus choose?

  • Joser

    “There’s no atheists in foxholes….” But you do find a lot of firearms and folks like us that have the will to defend your liberty. This is in spite of arrogant, self-serving purveyors of platitudes and theory. Next time out, we should stay home and let you defend yourself…. You might find yourself praying while trying to figure out how to release the safety….. Wouldn’t that be totally ironic?

  • agapian

    Why does anyone see a relationship between spirituality and the 2nd Amendment? The Supreme Court maintained that the 2nd Amendment gave a right to use a gun (5-4) in defense of ones’ self and others (9-0). There was no disagreement at all that the 2nd Amendment defined a right of self defense (true since the last ice age at least), only disagreement on the method by which the self defense happened. The Justices were clearly unhappy about self defense rights being extended to include devices of mass killing such as military weapons. That is where the ‘well regulated militia’ aspect of the 2nd Amendment has meaning. You do not need a 50 caliber submachine gun to defend your self or others in immediate peril and there is nothing whatever to suggest that there is a ‘God given’ right to do so, not even in the Quran.

  • leftoflarry

    I’m not against gun ownership, but I do find it disturbing that those who are supposed to preach love would do so through a barrel of a gun.

  • Susannah

    Serla – The principle reason for owning firearms, aside from the hunting and sport-shooting aspects of ownership, is to remind the government just who is in charge. It was firearms that allowed the colonists to free themselves from crappy rule from England. Thomas Jefferson remarked that liberty needs to be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots. We ultimately keep them just in case our liberty needs refreshing. The Constitution did not confer the right to keep and bear arms, nor did the Supreme Court decision confer that right. Both recognized the pre-existing right of citizens to keep and bear arms. As for the idiots in Chicago who think the Court decision only applied to Federal property, better get out your checkbooks, fellas. The Constitution’s Second Amendment was what was ultimately judged in the Court opinion. The constitution covers the entire country, not just the Federal Government. One ought to take notice that Britian just banned any kind of knife but a butter knife if the blade is over about 4 inches without a permit. Like that will stop assaults and killings. I wonder what the weapon of the day will become now????? To close – when criminals know they go against an armed citizen, they usually think twice. Oh, on your concealed permit rant, people are less stressed when they see you and do not see your gun on your hip. Also, it is easier to carry during non-summer months. Keep that in mind. My carry of choice is an FN5.7×28. Check that one out, kiddo.

  • Garyd

    I have but one thing to say to you that disagree with concealed Carry laws Lott-Mustard.The most complete study of gun deaths ever done in the United States. The two men began the study as gun control advocates but after the study was done became convinced that not only is gun control not the same as crime control but is actually detrimental to crime control in a free society.

  • s

    leftoflarry wrote ” I’m not against gun ownership, but I do find it disturbing that those who are supposed to preach love would do so through a barrel of a gun.”For those who don’t know the history of “freedom of religion”, they always think that guns are objects of crime.Crimes are committed by people who DO NOT FEAR GOD. Most of these shooting if not all are done by people who don’t fear God.One of which said he is “the natural selector” , derived from a godless doctrine, evolution.On the other hand, the people who sacrificed their lives for our freedom today were mostly God-fearing Christians. I wonder what could have happened if their preachers hate guns. By now, the world would have been called Republic of Japan. There would have been no preachers anymore simply because some stupid people think that preaching love and guns don’t mix.

  • Bud

    “People don’t need enough military firearms for a day of going postal for ‘self-defense’ ..but that’s too often the mentality of the ‘gun-nuts.’ Why it should be easier to get a stockpile of such things than a driver’s license is quite beyond me. These types don’t want people to be able to make their own informed decisions about sexuality and reproduction, but automatic weapons? That’s different.”Automatic weapons (machine guns) are covered by the National Firearms Act, and are EXTREMELY difficult to obtain. They were banned in 84, I believe, but the existing ones were grandfathered. To obtain one you need to:- Have them legal in your state and city. Many states ban them outright.If you have ANY doubts that this process is not easy, I urge you to try it and report back here. And then you can tell me if this was easier than obtaining your driver’s license.

  • Chops

    Susannah & Agapin:So theres no link between the amount of gun deaths and the amount of guns in your society? Really, get a grip.Finland and other Euro countries have high gun ownership but low rates of gun deaths becuase their culture is not as violent as yours and becuase there is more financial equality. You have a violent culture tht is not condusive to safe levels of gun onership but hey, you wanna live there.Americans are scared of their government. Giving people guns does not scare the government, activism does, protesting does, actually getting people off their ass to vote does. And activism is not writing a stringly worded letter to the Washington Post sweetheart.

  • Anonymous

    Seala wrote, ” Just as lying or stealing would not be appropriate Christian behaviour neither do I think carrying a gun would be.”Uh, that would be your personal opinion….keep it out of the Bible, it doesn’t belong there, period.

  • Tom

    Isn’t “Thou shall not kill” the first commandment?

  • guns n’ crosses

    Hey – I have an even better idea. Rather than pass out guns at church events, why not just pass them out in school? With all the gun shootings in schools, kids would be so much safer if every Jack and Jill were armed…if it was good enough for 11 year olds back then, why not now? I would feel sooo much better knowing all the kids from 5th grade on up were armed. They could learn gun safety in gym class…tote them to sporting events against opposing schools – think how many fights might be averted! Then they could take their guns to churches and Bible school too, because it would make the churches feel like an oasis of safety and peace in a troubled world…

  • j

    if the nra mission was only to gun maker profits that would be ok by me too, but they have a vary long history of protecting my rights. just look at all of the law suits they have filed since heller. that is why i am a member.

  • janye

    “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.” Matthew 5: 9

  • Nikki

    Susannah, you cannot be serious because the argument you make is insanely flawed. Do you honestly think that the people owning guns right now are comparable to the people who owned guns during the American Revolution?!!!!!!!!! First of all, the US government at the moment has a massive military at its disposal that can crush any gun-totting citizen uprise in a matter of hours. What, so you’re going to pick your gun up and march to the White House and show the president who’s boss? After you get mauled by the secret service, I bet they’d be having a good laugh. It’s a joke to even entertain the idea that you owning a gun shows the government who is in charge. For the most part, in fact, owning a gun poses no threat to the government as much as it does to the citizens in this country, who get shot and killed by them, sometimes for the fun of it. Furthermore, back in the colonial times, ordinary colonists were the American army, as America had no formal military, and they were fighting a battle against the British army. Believe me, if the British decided to invade us today, your right to bear arms would do diddly squat, in fact unless your in the military you wouldn’t even be directly involved in the matter. You quote Thomas Jefferson to strengthen your argument, but it does the exact opposite. The “blood of the patriots”, in this day and age, refers to the American military and not gun bearing civilians. If you want to change the government go out vote and be active in issues that actually matter.

  • kalgoo

    TO EVERY IDIOT WHO THINKS CHURCHS AND GUNS DONT MIX —- COLORADO SPRINGS— 1 WACKO WITH 1,000 ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION IN A CHURCH 10 FEET FROM 700 PEOPLE —- 1 GOD FEARING WOMAN WITH A PISTOL— THANK GOD FOR GUNS AND THE GOD GIVEN CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO DEFEND OURSELVES, I GUESS YOU LIBERALS WOULD RATHER HAVE WAITED FOR THE POLICE IN THIS CASE

  • Joser

    “Peacemaker” The name given to Col Colts, .45 Colt single action revolver used on the frontier in the 1800′s. Yes, blessed are the peacemakers…..

  • s

    Irony of ironies, the states who hate guns are those who would burn in WW3. Does it mean they are hypocrites thinking they were peacemakers but really not?Freedom and idiocy don’t mix. You cannot give guns to idiots. Guns should be out of their reach. On the other hand, the good guys with guns means peace. They are responsible people and parents with responsible children are not afraid because they believe that their children are not CRAZED maniacs. This is the MAIN reason why FREEDOM always belongs to the true children of God and idiots tend to have dictatorial regimes. They are an uncontrollable crowd. America is the Land of the Free because freedom always belong to the true children of God. Sad to say but many people who lives here actually does not belong here. That’s the reason they will be burn.

  • Youngj1

    I’ve read a good many of the comments and it seems to me that many who’ve commented here are of the mind that Christianity endorses the use of weapons. A faith based on the ethos that challenges it’s believers to turn the other cheek in the face of violence is being perverted into a doctrine that espouses being armed and using force is in keeping with the commandments of God.It is truly a sad commentary on the state of the Christian faith and of the world in general.

  • Nelson Robison

    In the Bible, in the New Testament, violence was abhorred by the person of Jesus Christ. His was not a message of violence and sedition, but one of love and acceptance. Turning the other cheek, was the way to reach those who had no concept of the Living G-d.

  • Nikki

    “S”: Frankly, the irony that you should call others idiots is too good to pass up. First of all, your post is so grammatically incorrect and logically flawed that I have a hard time deciphering what it is that you’re trying to say. So if I were you, before going around and waving the flag, I would learn the basics of the language. Secondly, if you and your posse are the “children of god”, I think I’d be in better company in hell.

  • Stan Satz

    Isn’t it ironic that a good deal of the music glorifying the gun culture in the Windsor Hill video is by Aaron Copland, a gay Jew who would have been appalled at his music being used by militant fundamentalist Christians?

  • j

    every time i read one of these articles, i give more money to the NRA to help preserve my right.

  • Fate

    j wrote: “every time i read one of these articles, i give more money to the NRA to help preserve my right.”All you are doing is providing money to a lobby whose mission it is to scare gun owners into thinking their guns will be taken away so you will give them money which they then use for their primary mission, to expand the profits of gun makers and sellers. The only thing they care about is your right to buy a gun because that is what makes profit. Your hunting or security needs are of no concern to them.For example, what did the NRA tell you about the laws in DC? Did they tell you no one could own a gun? If that is the impression they gave you it was way wrong, but par for the NRA.

  • russell

    the windsor hills baptist church of oklahoma city, oklahoma has corrected the Ten Commandments, by correcting “Thou Shalt Not Kill” to “Thou Shalt Kill as a member of the windsor hills baptist Church”. The fact is that if you cannot show a fully loaded, safety off, gun(preferably an assault rifle) you cannot worship at the windsor babtist church of oklahoma city, oklahoma. All babtisms require Parents and Godparents to provide an arsenal of fully loaded guns to the infant being babtised. The infant is then placed on the floor to play with the fully loaded guns with their safeties off. Praise the Lord, Glory Hallelujah brothers and sisters, funeral services pending.

  • MDB

    I can’t help but wonder what the members of this “church” would say if they saw video of a mosque passing out guns to young Muslims — in the United States, or in the Middle East.

  • Anonymous

    Conflating the flag and the cross is idolatry on both counts.

  • yella

    I’m a Christian and a gun owner…am i a fundamentalist?This story is nothing buy a pile of propaganda.We vote too, remember that ;-)

  • s

    I guess it’s about time that all of God’s true children give up the guns and uniform and let the idiots in this blog do it for our country. Let’s see how this world will turn into.

  • Lynn E

    Haven’t we learned enough this year about how churches operate in the United States? Money, sex, violence, and whatever else is out there in the world comes right into church and back out again. Can’t help it, it must be our culture.

  • s

    Nikki wrote ” I cannot imagine how all these people who are defending guns within the context of christianity, are true christians. “I can’t imagine also how one can be a surgeon without using a knife. Guns are good in the hands of the good guys and so are the knives for doctors and chefs. The real problem is you are not a true Christian so naturally you don’t know what true Christianity means. You will understand this further when in time, somebody holds a bigger gun than what America holds. And don’t worry because that time will come soon. Foresight is what unbelievers lack sorely.

  • Nikki

    “Annonymous”:

  • mibrooks27

    anonymous obviously knows nothing about target shooting. A revolver has five or six cylinders. Each one has some minor imperfections – the diameter of each chamber is a bit smaller or larger than the one next to it, each is ever so slightly not as straight as the others, the gearing that revolves and centers the chambers is slightly different. The result is that one shot to the next will be off by some small amount that is magnified significantly as the projectile is fired down range. Most revolvers, even very very good ones, aren’t capable of shooting a group closer than 2 or 3 inches on a 50 foot target. With a short barreled revolver, you would be lucky to be able to hit a 12″ circle at that range. A semiautomatic, on the other hand, has one chamber, and no gears. A good one will group 1/2″ on that 50 foot range. A really good one, will group under 1/4″. That is why target shooters all over the world only shoot semi-automatic handguns in competition. (There are a very few restricted revolver competitions, but only in the U.S. and these usually involve black powder revolvers designed around the Colt Old Army 45 caliber gun.) The fact is, if you cannot shoot a 9mm and 22 caliber semiautomatic, you cannot shoot competitively.

  • Anonymous

    Posted on July 27, 2008 19:29 If you do not live Christianity you cannot “know” Christianity as according to the following scripture,Romans 8:5-8 “(5) Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.(6)The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; (7) the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. (8) Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.It is like trying to tell a non-pregnant woman what is like to be pregnant….it is impossible to understand unless you “truly” experience it.

  • Nikki

    Anonymous:

  • Nikki

    Spiderman2:

  • Nikki

    You know what Spiderman2 (I am assuming you were formerly known as anonymous, and if not then ignore this as it applies more to anonymous and or S than you), as you seem to insist on arguing points without showing an ounce of reasoning and picking and choosing parts of the Bible to let it fit your ideology, rather than really understanding it. And since, at least your brand of Christianity seems to promote violence and intolerance, rather than peace, I’m going to stop this argument and do better things with my time. But, since you deemed it fit to preach me with quotes, let me leave you two that seem most appropriate for you, said by a very wise man:peace out

  • mibrooks27

    ANONYMOUS – “…you missed my point, and I don’t give a damn about yours.”And therein lies the great problems for this country and for much of the world. No one wishes to be civil, to attempt to understand, and the side in any debate stand back and toss bombs at each other, vilify each other, and get their sustenance from dining on hatred and ignorance. Worse, as Paul says in Roman, they take pride in that sin. Fools. How do you thin we got into Iraq? How is it that a man like Osama Bin Laudin could sway so many people to attack and kill in this country? How is it that genuinely evil men like Dick Cheney and Karl Rove could destroy this country, pervert our ideals, and convince so many to dump our ideals and laws for “security”? Your’s is the excuse, poor that it is, that underlies racism and bigotry. I hope you are proud of the rift you have helped create, for the cultural wars, for the horrors that will be visited upon this country because your fanaticism will not allow you to form common cause with millions of your fellow because you would polarize them.

  • s

    False religion and dictatotship always go hand in hand. Observe all the countries under dictatorship and see what is their practiced religion. It’s either Islam, Catholicism, Buddhism or Atheism. These people are not supposed to have guns. I see nothing wrong with those kids target shooting in their church fellowship. These are the good guys and a few or more of them will become future soldiers who would enforce peace and justice thru-out the world.Nikki, I can’t blame you if you hate guns. You obviously came from a country which practice false religion. False religion and guns should not mix. They are a formula for trouble.

  • Anonymous

    Nikki wote “I’m not a religious person, but even I have heard of and agree with those here who have pointed out that Jesus did actually preach to “turn the other cheek” and try peaceful solutions. So I cannot imagine how all these people who are defending guns within the context of christianity, are true christians.”The irony of your post is that by your own admission you are not “not a religious person,” so how is that a “non-religious person” can evaluate what constitutes what a “true Christian should or should not be.You are right about one thing though, you will have company in hell if you continue to judge others by your own merit of judgment and disavow God. By all means do educate yourself regarding self defense and if you knew anything about God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit you would know that in our present time in this world there is a war taking place. Be assured of this one thing God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are excellent warriors in battle and they never lose a fight and certainly will win the war that is at hand.You would be wise to join the believers fight against evil instead of “mustering” your way by your own set of rules, no one is a winner in that type of army.

  • aussiebarry

    The most frightening thing here is that S can own a gun, be afraid, be very afraid

  • j14

    anonymous (the one in the debate with MIBrooks527)

  • Anonymous

    Nikki wrote, “Also you picked a rather moot point of my argument to respond to, especially as you have no idea about my past and I have no idea about yours. Rather than see that you do exactly what you condemn others for, you just argued a pointless issue.”Your response to my post makes no sense. The issue was “to know” Christianity in practice form not book knowledge. Anyone can have book knowledge about an issue but that does not yield “practice” knowledge. Practice knowledge comes from personal involvement with the issue itself, which you lack, period.The scripture reference that I gave you explains my very point. It says in essence that if you are “apart” from God and are not of the spirit then your mind is “hostile” toward the things of God. That is the very reason you cannot confess knowing God because you are in rebellion to what he stands for.Good works my friend is nothing more then good works, in practice. Although not a bad thing but after all is said and done your good works without God end when the work is done. I suggest that you re-read the scripture that I referenced. And understand one thing there is a difference between you and me, I acknowledge the deity of God the father, Jesus as his son, and the Holy spirit as part of the trinity. I do my good works out of love for God, not for myself.Romans 8:5-8 “(5) Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.(6)The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; (7) the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. (8) Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

  • Anonymous

    mibrooks27: “And therein lies the great problems for this country and for much of the world. No one wishes to be civil, to attempt to understand, and the side in any debate stand back and toss bombs at each other, vilify each other, and get their sustenance from dining on hatred and ignorance. Worse, as Paul says in Roman, they take pride in that sin. Fools. How do you thin we got into Iraq? How is it that a man like Osama Bin Laudin could sway so many people to attack and kill in this country? How is it that genuinely evil men like Dick Cheney and Karl Rove could destroy this country, pervert our ideals, and convince so many to dump our ideals and laws for “security”? Your’s is the excuse, poor that it is, that underlies racism and bigotry. I hope you are proud of the rift you have helped create, for the cultural wars, for the horrors that will be visited upon this country because your fanaticism will not allow you to form common cause with millions of your fellow because you would polarize them.”A word of advice. If you wanted to instruct me, clarify my wrong thinking, (as you put it) or just plain share your knowledge you should do it without the “you are stupid and know nothing” attitude. A good teacher is kind and gentle with their instructing. I detest people that are “mean-spirited” in every aspects of their life.If you wanted my attention to instruct me, be nice…because you are not nice at all.

  • Anonymous

    j14: “anonymous (the one in the debate with MIBrooks527) Wrong.

  • Woops

    Gundamentalists don’t have the REAL courage it takes to be a follower of Jesus. Read the Words. It doesn’t promise freedom, it doesn’t promise success, it doesn’t say its OK to kill for your country. It simply says if you are faithful to the end, to the point of DYING for what you believe, but NOT KILLING, then you will be blessed. Sermon on the Mount. You better read it first. You better believe it. Most supposed christians don’t believe it. Yes, guns and flags ARE idolatry.

  • mibrooks27

    - It is certainly not my intention to be “nice” It is my intention to publicly point out that you are no different in any regard to every other sort of bigot I have ever encountered. Your’s, and that of the Brady Bunch, etc. is a campaign based on fear. You people consistently manipulate data, invent it!, in a campaign of fear. You think guns are evil and only evil monsters would own guns and so justify any lies, any deceit, any slander, in the name of the higher good… your own narrow view point. This is absolutely no different than what the worst President in history has been engaged in as he railroaded this country into Iraq. It was another campaign of fear and smear. I don’t understand why it is that very worst sort f people seem to feel that they have a god given right to demand of the rest of us that we need to lie life under their dictates. One thing is clear, and thank god for it, you are exposed for what you are, ignorant, worse, purposefully ignorant, bigot, a fanatic, a hateful and mean spirited dictator wannabe. I suggest you go away, because I, for one, will call you out from this time forward.

  • Anonymous

    mibrooks27: “- It is certainly not my intention to be “nice” It is my intention to publicly point out that you are no different in any regard to every other sort of bigot I have ever encountered. Your’s, and that of the Brady Bunch, etc. is a campaign based on fear. You people consistently manipulate data, invent it!, in a campaign of fear. You think guns are evil and only evil monsters would own guns and so justify any lies, any deceit, any slander, in the name of the higher good… your own narrow view point. This is absolutely no different than what the worst President in history has been engaged in as he railroaded this country into Iraq. It was another campaign of fear and smear. I don’t understand why it is that very worst sort f people seem to feel that they have a god given right to demand of the rest of us that we need to lie life under their dictates. One thing is clear, and thank god for it, you are exposed for what you are, ignorant, worse, purposefully ignorant, bigot, a fanatic, a hateful and mean spirited dictator wannabe. I suggest you go away, because I, for one, will call you out from this time forward.”My, my, such “hatred” coming from a “so-called” person with good morals that has a “burning desire” to see the world healed. How about caring for those in your own back yard? However, from the hatred you spewed in this post as well as others, my guess is that you are not capable of loving others, only pointing out what you perceive as others faults done as a means to cover your underlying level of no *low self-esteem* and *lack of self-confidence.* Which when done by you, in your imagination makes you look like in your own eyes you are in the right and “everyone” else is at fault.I suggest you get the help that you need for your “unbridled anger,” “fault-finding,” “low self-esteem,” and lack of self confidence, just for a start. Given the time it will take to fix the major issue you can then get the help you need for being such an as*! As far as I am concerned, I want nothing to do with you now or in the future. Your type will ultimately find fault with anyone that does not agree with you. So this is the last time that I will respond to your post, I want nothing to do with your kind, period~

  • mibrooks27

    ANONYMOUS – I have never felt the need to placate those who wallow in ignorance and bigotry and, make no mistake about it, you ARE a bigot. Worse, you are one of those self righteous sort that takes pride in their ignorance. As with most debates, there is a middle ground that people of good will will find in spite of the misinformation and ignorance your type trades in. Firearms, for recreational shooting, has a long and proud history in this country and much of the West. In spite of your twisting the facts, target shooting and hunting are no more dangerous than bowling an most of those participating in those sports are safe and sane human beings doing something they like. They are no threat to you or to others. The real threat is people like you who seem to thrive on fear. Whether that fear is some sort of neurosis or whether it is nothing more than hot air, spread around in the furthering of your “cause”, I would suggest that the world has genuine problems that need addressing and you would do better to spend your time and effort addressing those problems instead. That you will no, that you will instead sit back anonymously and toss insults and sophomoric snide remarks instead, only shows how bankrupt and shallow your own sense of self esteem and thought processes really is.

  • spiderman2

    “And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should SMITE the nations: and he shall rule them with a ROD OF IRON: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Revelation 19:15-16)The time when Jesus showed his meekness is long past due. The Lamb will NOT remain a lamb but will transform into THE PUNISHER.Think again: why would the Lord SMITE the nations? It is because the world has become STUPID and the worse part is that it is INCURABLE. The DISEASE has blinded them.The Bible has been in existence for more than 2000 years and yet they’ve never learned.To those who insists that true Christianity (not false christianity) and guns don’t co-exist as a weapon for peace, the next time Bin Ladin sweeps down his Jumbo Jet over you, open your arms wide and CATCH THE JET gleefully. Nikki, no wonder your previous country has allowed a dictator to rule over all of you. Sad to say but for the sake of clarity, I have to say it. YOU GUYS ARE A BUNCH OF IDIOTS.”Get your facts first, and then NEVER distort them ” (Spiderman2)

  • j14

    How so?

  • scared

    On May 20, 1826 Congress passed a Resolution that rewarded the boys for their bravery by issuing each of them “one rifle, promised them by General Macomb, while commanding the Champlain Department, for their gallantry and patriotic services as a volunteer corps during the the siege of Plattsburg, in September one thousand eight hundred and fourteen. On each of which said rifles there shall be a plate containing an appropriate inscription.” ANd As Dave Barry often says, Congress did not award for nothng. but Dave Barry based on nothing to award gun?

  • Anonymous

    Don’t let your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. (Paraphrased)

  • j14

    Whats wrong with giving guns away to kids? As long as the no how to safely shoot them there shouldn’t be a problem.

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