George Carlin, Adherent of Frisbeetarianism

While it is sad that someone as hilarious as George Carlin is dead, it is a little fun to think … Continued

While it is sad that someone as hilarious as George Carlin is dead, it is a little fun to think about what his afterlife looks like on this fine June morning. Is it a place, as he once speculated, where Joe Pesci might rule with a baseball bat and fine acting skills?

Carlin was one of the great living satirists of religion and in particular what happens to us when we die. Carlin consistently called bullshit on religion, accusing organized belief systems of being the ultimate hustle/fairy tale? “When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told,” he said.

Carlin grew up Roman Catholic in Washington Heights and from early on seemed to delight in mocking religion — even going so far as to invent his own religion — Frisbeetarianism — for a newspaper contest, which he defined as the belief that when a person dies “his soul gets flung onto a roof, and just stays there”, and cannot be retrieved. Here’s Carlin on religion, full form and full throttle.

R.I.P., or on a rooftop somewhere.

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  • lavdad2

    When I click on the link for “Carlin on religion” I get taken to Youtube where there is a message that says, “The URL contained a malformed video ID.”

  • lavdad2

    When I click on the link for “Carlin on religion” I get taken to Youtube where there is a message that says, “The URL contained a malformed video ID.”

  • Mr Mark

    I’ve already read a few posts elsewhere expressing the sentiment that, “the old atheist finally got his” – as if death only comes to the non-religious.Carlin had some brilliant routines, but nobody bats a thousand. He was unique. he made people laugh and – more important – he made people think, an epitaph most of us can only hope to have offered at the end of our days.

  • Aloha

    Bless you George, whether you like it or not.

  • Kity

    Dear George;I hope you get a nice spot on the roof. Enjoy.See his take on “Saving the Planet”. The man was a genius – always speaking truth to the (apparently) hearing impaired masses.

  • Mr.Suane B.Huff

    George tell the lord I said “Hello”, and I will see him one day, and by the way who’s the joke on.

  • Paganplace

    I dunno, Ms. Hoffman: if he went to the Christian Heaven in the way Christians expect, (not that I see a whole lot of appeal in the notion of living with the contents of just my current brain forever and ever, anyway,) I think the answer’s clear what he’d get. New material. :) Can’t beat that. :)

  • Paganplace

    Well, on second thought, I guess that’d only last a while, anyway… Sooner or later, it’d be down to… “Stop me if you heard this one fifteen billion years ago, but…..”Till then, maybe he could liven up the place. :)

  • Fate

    Carlin, like me, grew up Roman Catholic. From its blatant inconsistencies and bold statements that make little sense Carlin had a treasure of comic material no one else dared speak of due to the fear of making Catholics upset. But Carlin was not one to hear something that seemed wrong, or stupid, or a lie, and let it go, and he used comedy to make us all laugh at the Catholic fantasies all catholic children are taught. His bit on “Special Dispensation, Heaven, Hell, Purgatory And Limbo” hit every one of my funny bones and all I could do was laugh and nod in agreement. A great comic, a funny man, a quick whit, a rare breed. I hope George ends up in a nice on the roof. He deserves it.

  • dbcjr

    Carlin’s doing one of the following now for sure:1) Laughing his butt off, because he was right, religion didn’t matter and he gets the eternal piece of the pie.2) [ ] because that’s it, nothing.3) Or screaming like hell for all eternity, because religion (or at least a relationship with God) does matter.Given those possible outcomes, how do you you think it wise to conduct your life?

  • thomas

    George Carlin never found peace in life and made his living ranting about his “major psychotic f–king hatreds” (his words).I hope now in death he rests in peace.

  • YEP

    ‘..he made us think’True. In his later times, he made us think how immoral we can get, yea verily, how immoral we have become.Give me the hippy-dippy weather man any day. Now that was great comedy. His cynical, base and rude humor that followed his early better-stuff only helped callous the society he was a member of. For that, he will be greatly, but sadly, remembered.

  • lepidopteryx

    We’ve lost a rarity – the thinking person’s stand-up comic – thought-provoking and laugh-until-your-face-hurts-and-you-wet-your pants hilarious. Who’s going to take on that role now? Dave Chapelle? Lisa Lampinelli? Dane Cook? Jeff Foxworthy? Not bloody likely.Time to get out my well-worn copies of “Napalm and Silly Putty,” “Brain Droppings,” and “When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops?”

  • Mr Mark

    Carlin will be remembered for his irreverence and his insights.Last week, the media fell over themselves eulogizing one of there own, Tim Russert. Tim, we were told, was deeply religious and a practicing Catholic. We were told that Tim “died” of a heart attack.Today, the headline on CNN.com reads: “Heart Failure Kills Comedian George Carlin.” The media is busy informing us that George was an atheist. We’re told that George was “killed” by heart failure.Hmm? I wonder what the difference is between “dying” of a heart attack and being “killed” by heart failure. Dying seems so much more benign than being killed. I wonder if god reserves dying for the faithful while he goes about killing the unfaithful, often with the same diseases (I don’t doubt that Carlin could have done a pretty good routine on the subject along the lines of his “football v baseball” routine).I don’t know why the media says some people die while others are killed by the same disease, but what I do know if that 5 years from now, the general public will still be talking about George Carlin, while Tim Russert will be but a faint memory in most people’s minds. I don’t say that with malice, but with a nod to what’s real. After all, people still talk about Lenny Bruce. Chet Huntley? Not so much.

  • Mr Mark

    Carlin railed against Catholicism, particularly the concept of limbo.The Church came down on him for his irreverence, Yet last year, the Church finally – and to its credit – fully embraced the Carlin Doctrine on the dogma of limbo.That’s a pretty amazing turnaround. Considering how long it took the RCC to turnaround on its anti-Galileo position, I wonder how much more of the Carlin Doctrine the Church is planning on embracing over the next, say, decade?BTW – I wonder what the average Catholic feels about the fact that Carlin was right all along when it comes to limbo. Does it give them pause on other articles of faith? Perhaps ol’ George was a prophet worth listening to!

  • S. P. Diehl

    George Carlin was a genius and like other geniuses (like Einstein) he clearly stated his utter lack of belief in a personal God or in any other form of religion – only to find that people of far less intellect are apologizing for him only a day after his death. Carlin didn’t believe in an afterlife, he didn’t suddenly convert on his deathbed, and no amount of pitiful wishful thinking will change that. George is dead and permanently gone. If you liked him, do what you can so that he may be remembered for a long time.I hope that link gets repaired to the video of Carlin on religion and I hope everyone who visits this site sees it. Carlin wasn’t just joking – he meant what he said and I am so happy that he did. Perhaps George will open a few more minds and inspire some more critical thinking even now after he is gone.

  • CAM

    The worst punishment for Carlin would be the Christian paradise: Boredom for ethernity! Unless he gets Saint Peter’s job. Then even Satan will behave to get to heaven. I wouldn’t like to be in the pants of all the suicide bombers. Carlin will have an ethernal party mocking them about their 70 virgins.

  • TJ

    DBCJR writes: “Given those possible outcomes, how do you you think it wise to conduct your life?”Keep that up DBCJR and you just might scare me into believing in your authoritarian sky buddy too!

  • Bill

    Thanks for laughs George.If your faith, beliefs and morals can’t take a bit of ribbing, the fault lies not in the person doing the ribbing, but in yourself. (see riots over cartoons).The roof at my house has an opening, but I think God (and she is pretty P.O. with the rest of us), has a special place for you.

  • Bill

    Thanks for laughs George.If your faith, beliefs and morals can’t take a bit of ribbing, the fault lies not in the person doing the ribbing, but in yourself. (see riots over cartoons).The roof at my house has an opening, but I think God (and she is pretty P.O.’d with the rest of us), has a special place for you.

  • Mr Mark

    Carlin’s primary rant was against stupidity. He made a career out of pointing out stupidities, from the mundane (“why do Americans park in our driveways but drive on our parkways”) to the memorable (Seven dirty words). To Carlin, hell would be an eternity surrounded by stupidity. In that sense, the worst kind of hell would be to end up in the Xian heaven, surrounded by a god who isn’t too bright and a bunch of believers who are even dimmer.

  • teresa

    “I wonder what the difference is between “dying” of a heart attack and being “killed” by heart failure.”George Carlin had a long history of heart disease. His first heart attack was in the 1970s. His battled it almost all his long life. It may account for his bouts of depresion..

  • lepidopteryx

    dbcjr: Pascal’s Wager leaves out at least one possibility: that there is one and only one god, and it isn’t JHWH. If that’s the case, then your Christianity will be as useless as you seem to think my Paganism and Carlin’s atheism are.So, since none of us knows for sure, I figure my best bet is to do what I can to be a decent person right here, right now, and leave the afterlife, if there is any, to take care of itself.

  • SpideyVCU

    I used to watch George Carlin as Mr. Conductor on Shinning Time Station when I was little, and he stayed with me as I grew; I enjoyed his comedy routines and books as well. As many people have posted, he will be missed.May his soul find a nice sunny spot on the roof. He deserves nothing less.

  • Elbobo

    dbcjr – Are you really so disillusioned that you believe that Pascal’s Wager doesn’t have a hole in its logic that is so large even god couldn’t plug it up?You do realize that there is more than one religion right? And that belief in the incorrect “god” also will send you to hell? So now let’s reexamine I could live my life as a good person (albeit angry, but who wouldn’t be if they were traveling with both eyes open?) pointing out the flaws in the system and bring a slight reprieve of the redundancy and pain in many people’s lives. I could inspire many to examine the inequalities and have some be moved to action. Then when I pass, while my body will decompose and I will cease to be, I will be immortal in the fact that people for many generations to come will remember and quote me. orI could sit in church every week, toss 10% of my income to…whatever the church wants. I could spew hatred at many different groups while quoting “Love the sinner, hate the sin!” as if the power of judgment was passed from jesus christ directly to me. I could help the starving in third world nations…with the caveat that they hear about and accept my god. Then when I die, I realize that one of the thousands of other religions or sect of said religions was the one true religion and I am cast to hell…makes those hours sitting on a hard bench seem like a waste to me. I’ll tell you what…I won’t tell you how to live your life and you don’t use the death of someone to draw a conjecture that has been refuted millions of times and that can be seen as being completely empty and narrow minded on even the slightest evaluation.thanks!

  • FunTravelAdventure

    May his soul find a nice sunny spot on the roofUh, just where in the human body is that located. Nobody’s ever been able to find it.

  • Mr Mark

    TJ:DBCJR writes: “Given those possible outcomes, how do you you think it wise to conduct your life?”Pascal’s Wager. Yet again. Yawn!The truth is, if there is no afterlife/god, you’ll never know, will you? If consciousness ends at death (which by all indications it does) then you’ll never know, will you?That’s the beauty of it all. If you’re a believer in the afterlife, you’re not disappointed that it doesn’t exist. If you’re a non-believer, you don’t have a rude awakening. Why? Why, because death IS it. It’s like being at a funeral – everyone is sad to some extent…except for the dead person, who isn’t…anything.BTW – why anyone would waste a good part of their life “conducting their life” as if god or an afterlife existed is the height of egoism. Were we to tally up all of the hours and centuries wasted in the worship of non-existent supernatural beings, time that could have been spent doing something tangible and useful to better the human condition (not to mention the number of religious wars that could have been avoided!) we might have a better appreciation for the vacuousness of Pascal’s bargain-counter bromide.I doubt that Pascal’s sucker’s bet ever entered into the equation for Carlin who chose to live his life free of the cheap fears that religion seeks to impose.

  • lepidopteryx

    FunTravelAdventure: Uh, just where in the human body is that located. Nobody’s ever been able to find it. —————————————————————————————————-It’s the top of your oral cavity – the spot where peanut butter always gets stuck.[ducking thrown objects]

  • that’s it

    George Carlin was an atheist. He did not believe in an afterlife or heaven. So respect his beliefs and quit saying he’s partying on a rooftop somewhere. According to him- he is no more.And don’t expect a rainbow at his funeral- that’s for believers who have hope.

  • mikekeller2

    In spite of George’s professed beliefs (or lack thereof) I think he was pleasantly surprised last night when he got to where he has gone. And I’m also quite confident that Mother and Father God have spent this entire day laughing their asses off along with George and all of his friends who preceded him there. We loved you George…you dared to be different and because of that, you truly made a difference.

  • Neo

    its so strange to me that so many folks believe that there is an afterlife when there is no proof or evidence of one. sounds like alot of wishful thinking. i didn’t exist before i was born so why is it so difficult to believe i may not exist after i’m dead?? there may be an afterlife, i don’t know. but i believe that there probably is not one.

  • Sentient Meat

    Carlin recognized that fear is no justification for belief. It is sad that much of society employs willful self-delusion in order to adjust for this. Pascal’s Wager is silly.In retort to the bible quotation, I offer a quotation that I think explains his rationale:”Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.”

  • mike

    mr mark posts-”Today, the headline on CNN.com reads: “Heart Failure Kills Comedian George Carlin.” The media is busy informing us that George was an atheist. We’re told that George was “killed” by heart failure.”Hmm. Links please.

  • Sasquatch

    How interesting that the news media gave so much coverage to one of their own, Tim Russert, while giving the usual level of dead celebrity coverage to George Carlin. Ironically, in the long term, Carlin’s rants and pithy observations spoke truth to power more than Russert’s “inquisitions” ever did.George, I bow down to the Sun in memory of you. And I pray to Joe Pesci to watch over you.

  • Anonymous

    I just read in today’s paper that some 90% of Americans believe in a god. I’d like to see, and I’ll bet George would too,that same survey done with those same people connected to a lie

  • Mr Mark

    Mike -The Carlin “Killed” headline/link was at CNN.com. Don’t know if it’s still there, but it was there an hour ago. Check it out for yourself. I didn’t bother doing a screen capture..not my problem.

  • mike

    mr markIn your rush to compare Carlin to Russert- you’ve accused the media of bias that you cannot verify. I searched google news for (carlin killed) and found nothing. A search for (carlin atheist) had only 14 hits.”Tday, the headline on CNN.com reads: “Heart Failure Kills Comedian George Carlin.” The media is busy informing us that George was an atheist. We’re told that George was “killed” by heart failure.”Recant.

  • Dennis Myers

    Ms. Hoffman writes, “Carlin grew up Roman Catholic in Washington Heights…”According to one of his albums, it was Morningside Heights.

  • Mr Mark

    Er, Mike, I won’t recant as the CNN headline I published was a cut-n-paste from their website.Perhaps they’ve changed it. Not my problem. If you don’t believe me, that’s your problem, not mine. If it’s bugging you so much, why not call CNN and ask if they’ve changed it? Again, not my problem.

  • paul c

    neo:anon: The pew research center reports that a total of 16% are unaffiliated with any particular religion, but 12.1 % still stay they believe in God, 2.4% report themselves as Agnostic and only 1.6% report themselves as Atheists. Atheists in the US are a small but very vocal minority.

  • Paganplace

    ” paul c:Well, I dunno about Mr. Lazarus, but I’ve been through that. Not to spoil the fun, and I wouldn’t say it ‘proves’ anything, but, …Still Pagan. :)

  • Ed

    I also remember George Carlin from Shining Time Station along with Ringo Starr in the ’80s and ’90s. Both Mr. Conductors I found out about their pasts a little later. George Carlin also appeared nervously on U.S. Television for the first time on The Mike Douglas Show, the same week John Lennon and Yoko Ono were on, in 1972.Finally with the discussion about the afterlife and George Carlin, I’ll leave a quote from the last new song from George Harrison in 2002 after he died:”There are no edges / There is no side / And Oh whoa / We pay the price / With a spin of the wheel / And a roll of the dice / Oh yeah you pay your fare / But If you don’t know where you’re going / Any road will take you there”

  • blue7053

    Statements of “I died so I know” are generally useless. Number 2: who has the presence of mind to time the ‘tunnel’ -about 6 to 8 seconds- check the walls -striated- estimate the frequency of the ‘light’ -50 MC- consider truth -derivable from basic principals- ask for the meaning of life -love (sit down by yourself and ‘do’ it) and understanding (either micro or macro -they are both the same)? Who could do all that?If you consider it all your life as George

  • Christian

    Frisbeetariarism? No. There are only two choices: Heaven or Hell. It’s your choice. Luke 16:22-31 gives an indication of what to expect should you choose hell.

  • ThinkingMan

    George had many God-given talents and intelligence that he used for his own amusement and profit. As a “thinking man”, he might have pondered how so many people willingly accept an unproven, weak theory that states that in a world where everything we observe degenerates, decomposes, dissolves, rusts, oxidizes, and moves to a state of equilibrium (or a state with less organization), the most complex (organic) machines with the most complex software (genetic variation) & firmware (built in programming) in the world just happened to build themselves through unknown, unintelligent, random processes. The ONLY source of information is intelligence, and information REQUIRES a complex machine to read or interpret it (or it is useless, & therefore not information). The most simple, basic form of life possible requires a large amount of information (if only to reproduce itself). That organism must be able to consume a fuel/food source and protect itself from a harsh environment (any environment with oxygen or water) with a membrane that lets the good stuff in & keeps the bad stuff out (or else it might need a complex immune system). These are the requirements of life that scientists agree on.The basic building blocks of life do not form, they break down and decompose. The individual probabilities of amino acids forming in sufficient quantities and then forming sufficient quantities of complex proteins is considered ZERO in any true field of science (especially in the non-natural form that they always appear in life). But in the fantasy world of evolution one simply states that “given enough time, anything is possible”. In this fairytale for adults stacked upon impossible probabilities, extremely complex, optimized organisms with extremely complex cardiovascular, respiratory, reproductive, nervous, immune, integumentary, digestive, endocrine, musculoskeletal, lymphatic and optic systems just happened to design themselves. The most complex system in the world is not the human eye (as some atheists have postulated), but the single cell (an inseminated egg) that contains all of the organic machinery and information necessary to build all of the above complex systems including the human eye. Genetics do not explain everything; they do not explain the complex interaction of enzymes and hormones required to time the growth of the organism from egg to an adult human.George might have pondered the many irreducibly complex systems (that require the existence of many complex parts to already be present before any useful, selectable or “favored” functionality exists) like flight and sonar, each of which had to evolve separately for insects, mammals & birds, and for bats & dolphins. Anyone who examines the flight capabilities of the bumblebee (impossible), bird feathers, bat sonar, the built in capability of certain spiders to quickly build intricate & perfectly symmetrical webs, and any of the above mentioned systems can not avoid the observation of DESIGN. Does anyone really believe that the bombardier beetle formed two chambers and the ability to fill each with a substance toxic to life (hydrogen peroxide & a derivative of cyanide), and the ability to inject the two together to produce scalding liquid in the face of danger without a designer (George might have asked how many died trying)? “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse” – Rom 1:20.With George’s constant play on words, he might have laughed at scientists seeking planets with water, saying that life could have formed there because water is the “solvent of life”. Does anyone know what a solvent does?

  • E Favorite

    Mr Mark: “I can’t help thinking that were the believer/non-believer roles reversed in this instance, that the media coverage of their respective deaths would follow suit.”Excellent point! (also like your other points about Carlin, e.g., Limbo).I think the tone of the reaction is very subtle and even subconscious. Russert was a good guy, “a man of faith,” struck down when he was relatively young. Carlin was irreverent, a self-defined bad boy, a professional cynic and an open atheist who lived to be an old man. After the Russert memorial service at the Kennedy center last week, much was made of the rainbow that appeared outside the theatre right after the service had ended with a rousing rendition of “Somewhere over the rainbow.” Meanwhile, just tonight, as I walked out of a building a few miles from the Kennedy Center under similar circumstances (a quick afternoon shower, followed by sunshine, I was greeted by a beautiful rainbow. Everyone on the street was smiling in appreciation. And I thought – is anyone wondering what recently deceased person caused this particular rainbow? I doubt it. Is anyone listening to “Somewhere over the rainbow” on their car radio, thinking this is an obvious sign from God? Probably.George Carlin could probably make a memorable joke out of it. I just marvel at the human imagination and its desire to make order out of chaos.

  • JoeT

    ThinkingMan: you give thinking a bad name. water is referred to as the solvent of life in a rhetorical sense, not literally, or to the extent that it is used literally, not in the sense of acetone, for example, but rather in the sense of a substance that facilitates reaction. cheap rhetoric passing for a rebuttal of science – give it up.

  • E Favorite

    Christian: “Frisbeetariarism? No. There are only two choices: Heaven or Hell. It’s your choice.”Lighten up, Christian, it’s a JOKE!

  • jessie

    EF marvels-”at the human imagination and its desire to make order out of chaos.”What about your body’s intricate design? Consider just the physiology of your eyesight- then think beyond to encompass imagination, conception, discernment, and foresight. You’ve got an awesome tool in that head of yours. You are a living and breathing example of “order out of chaos”. And that “order out of chaos” allows you the ability to “marvel”.

  • I LOVE GOD

    No matter what we say or think, GOD has the last say so. Remeber GOD’s grace!!!!!!!!

  • I LOVE GOD

    No matter what we say or think, GOD has the last say so. Remember GOD’s grace!!!!!!!!

  • E Favorite

    Jesse says: “You are a living and breathing example of “order out of chaos”. Just wondering, Jesse, do you have a larger point here? Are you suggesting that God had something to do with this. If so, how do you know?If that’s not what you were getting at, please excuse. But still, I wonder – what did you mean?

  • blue7053

    Those who prefer ‘belief’ to ‘theory’ andwould often insist that:you cannot go from ’2+2=4′ to ‘e=Mc2′ without going through’and then a Miracle happens’.

  • Jihadist

    blue7053: you cannot go from ’2+2=4′ to ‘e=Mc2′ without going through and then a Miracle happens’.It is a miracle than man progress in maths and physics to go from 2+2= 4 to e=Mc2 for all his recorded stupidity throughout history. It’s a miracle! I insist2.

  • FH

    Sentient Meat: The skeptics prayer:It is the most unreasonable thing possible to refuse to even seek the truth about God. At best you have nothingness to look to, at worst an eternity separated from God. The case for naturalism is not as good as you think it is. What is silly, is an eternity of loneliness because of intellectual pride. Every believer has doubt…it is not a sin.Jesus replies, “Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

  • Concerned

    When I heard about him dying my heart sank. I couldn’t help but think, he’s probably burning in hell right now. I used to admire his comedy, but the older he got the more bitter and angry and not funny he got. To the point of openly and publicly blaspheming the God who gave him his every breath. I just hope someone close to him tried to convey the true message of the gospel to him and not useless Catholic works righteousness. We can only be saved by repentace and faith in the shed blood of Jesus that paid our fine for the laws (10 commandments) that we all have broken.

  • john

    I was sad to hear of mr. carlins passing; he gave me many laughs. I did’nt share his lack of faith in God, although I can certainly understand the varied and apparent contradictions that caused him,and many others, to lash out. My hope is that after all the ranting and raving – some of which was quite true – George Carlin finally met the Risen Christ, bowed humbly before Him, and found peace at the last. Remember the thief crucified with Jesus.

  • just wondering

    E Fav- Here’s what I wonder-Mr. Mark says: Today, the headline on CNN.com reads: “Heart Failure Kills Comedian George Carlin.” The media is busy informing us that George was an atheist. We’re told that George was “killed” by heart failure.(ie: atheists are killed and believers die)The referenced article you found- doesn’t mention George Carlin was an atheist. So- do atheists have a big chip on their shoulders because they do not believe in God or do atheists not believe in God because they have a big chip on their shoulders??

  • Paganplace

    “Jesus replies, “Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”Well, FH, maybe you could find a little of your much-crowed about ‘compassion’ regarding the faith of those who don’t see nuffin in what you say. I mean, you guys kind of got a recurring wet dream about people who didn’t obey you in life about masturbation and ‘Some words you can’t say on television’ bowing and scraping before yer ‘Lord’ when they die,Frankly, if the universe is somehow like you say, I think it’d be the comedians with the guts to look yer ‘Lord’ in the eye. Say, ‘Hey, you know, the funniest thing just happened.’ Get it?

  • Another former alter boy gone bad! I mean sensible.

    Well, since you censored my post, I called upon the spirit of George Carlin. He came to me and told me to tell you to go to hell, where he is waiting for you.

  • Atheist I Am

    I thought George Carlin was funny, relevant and right on about religion. He is dead, he has not gone on to see God, he and I agree that no such being exists. If you choose to delude yourself into believing in some God figure knock yourself out. You know what happens when you die? Your dead, thats it, thats all. If the best God can do to prove he is with us is send his supposed son 2,000 years ago and expect us not to have grave doubts if he did exist he would just be lame, incompetent, careless, cruel, unloving, divisive, ignorant, evil, intolerant, etc. Choose it, I am one who thinks religion poisons man, not any moral indicator, nothing but delusional fools would believe in such stupidity. Yea I know the Imaginary guy is peeved at me. I am so worried lmaoooo. I can show you a billion reasons why I refuse to believe in such a fallacy, any God figure who would allow the horrible suffering of the children, the elderly and the helpless is nothing but an idiot, so I rather disbelieve than think he works in mysterious ways, nothing mysterious to those who suffer, if he did exist he would be an absent God, incompetent God. I went in search of God and found Atheism. I think all religion is wrong, none of it is caring, loving, it promotes hate, etc. (see above). I know you all just know, you feel it, yea well I think if God existed he could do a bit better than that, don’t you?

  • Paganplace

    Oh, yeah, and as for him ‘mocking Catholicism,’ You bet he was mocking Catholicism.While the ‘pious’ were letting people get raped in the name of ‘Serious piety.’ You tell *me* how you arrange justice in your head.

  • Athena

    George and Jesus are probably up there eating pork chops and laughing at all of the silly people that were judging him. GC: “Ya know, I never believed in you or your Father.”JC: “That’s okay, George. You made us laugh anyway.” I saw Carlin in Las Vegas at the Stardust in 2004. Man, he was awesome. Hubby and I looked at each other tonight and both said that we were glad we saw him when we did.

  • Athena

    Either that, or he’s on the roof looking down at all of us and laughing.

  • Paganplace

    Hee, Athena, are we showing Pagan bias here about the notion that if God/s have a sense of humour, it’s not sadistic? :)

  • FH

    Paganplace”Well, FH, maybe you could find a little of your much-crowed about ‘compassion’ regarding the faith of those who don’t see nuffin in what you say.”What I say, nor my compassion matter much…I don’t judge others, still coming to grips with my own faults, honestly. One of which is a lack of compassion, ironically.Good day to you sir.

  • E Favorite

    Hey, “just wondering” I’m wondering about your thought process. I’m having trouble following it, and thus am having difficulty with your question:”do atheists have a big chip on their shoulders because they do not believe in God or do atheists not believe in God because they have a big chip on their shoulders”Were you being sarcastic? (easy – Just answer yes or no). I will say, your question aside, that atheists I know don’t believe in God because there is no evidence for God.Also, It would have been nice if you had acknowledged that a link with the words “Heart Failure Kills Comedian George Carlin” existed. Mr Mark didn’t say that the word “atheist” was in that particular article and I’m not sure why you mentioned it, unless it was gotcha attempt, sort of indicative of a chip on YOUR shoulder.Suggestion – if you want to find examples of Carlin referred to as an atheist, just Google . Easy – I found 219,000 entries. Many of the ones I checked were positive.

  • Jihadist

    Hello E Favorite,I don’t quite recall George Carlin ever calling himself an atheist though he is one and did thrash religion in his jokes. He did say he is a sceptic. That he was, on everything. Even on death. Love his joke about death. The one about people so afraid of death that they won’t say someone is dead, but “pass away”. And that, he said he would do – to “pass away”.Best regards

  • Amy

    I learned about Catholicism from Carlin. Despite years of catechism my neighbors when I was growing up could never explain any of it. That’s the difference between believers and non-believers. Non-believers are the ones who paid attention in Sunday school and thought “WTF?” Carlin’s albums were the first validation that I wasn’t alone in finding the stuff being said in church very strange and contradictory. I learned about Catholicism from Carlin. Despite years of catechism my neighbors when I was growing up could never explain any of it. That’s the difference between believers and non-believers. Non-believers are the ones who paid attention in Sunday school and thought “WTF?” Carlin’s albums were the first validation that I wasn’t alone in finding the stuff being said in church very strange and contradictory. I would still like to hear a comedian riff on the cannibalism in the communion ceremony, but maybe it’s enough that Carlin’s “spirit” will live on in the freedom we all have to discuss stuff like that.

  • just wondering

    “Suggestion – if you want to find examples of Carlin referred to as an atheist, just Google”E Fav-Narrow your search to google news and you will find 14 hits of his atheism noted at death.Then search Carlin’s death and you will find over 5000 hits. At his death- George Carlin’s disbelief in God is not often noted by the media.

  • paul c

    Atheist I am: If you can step back from it all for a few minutes and contemplate, I think you will see that every person gets a share of the good and the bad in life. Sometimes great good can come out of very distressful circumstances. I believe that God makes it that way so we can demonstrate our love for him and each other in different environments. If we chose to do so, then we will join him in heaven. If on the other hand, we separate ourselves from God on earth, we will live under the same circumstances in the next life.

  • Terry

    It is important to know that although Carlin´s stage persona could be pretty dark, particularly over the past few years (his concert t-shirts read ¨F%$k Hope¨) his generosity of spirit and sweetness was apparent to anyone lucky enough to meet him offstage. He said in an interview several years ago, and I am paraphrasing, “I have no hope whatsoever for humanity, but I always find something I love in every human I meet.” I think there are plenty of people who feel the same way who are not necessarily pessimists.I am glad to have met him and I was surprised by his generosity and friendliness, especially having followed his stage career for so long I expected a bitter cantankerous old coot, and was taken by surprise by how sweet he was to me and how generous he was with his time for me, just a fan looking for an autograph. Anyone who loves language and hates bullsh$t should mourn his loss.

  • john

    If I wore a hat, I’d tip it to Paul C. And Terry, thanks for the interesting info. There’s always much more to people than we think!

  • surfbum

    Anonymous:”You directly quoted George in your posts”The thoughts I posted are my own so”You’ve been narrow minded and judgmental- the thing you dislike in others”Nope. Wrong again. I just want you so called “christians” to keep your biblical horsesh!t to yourself. If you can do that, man, I’d be very stoked!Brambleton:”all because someone was willing to spend the time and effort to let them know about Jesus”Like that draft dodging, coke snorting, f**k up in the WH who people like you (evangelical christians) voted for in large numbers. Yea, you’re right I’m very pissed at people like you! If so called “evangelical christians” had exercised a little more independent judgement, that lying war criminal in the WH would still be in Austin or maybe in drug rehab where he belongs.Lastly, where does it say in your stupid f**king bible that it’s OK fine to start a f**king war and kill tens of thousands of people? Where, Brambleton, where in that f**king bible of yours, does it say its great idea kill people, lavish tax cuts on the wealthy, veto health care for poor kids, trash the environment, and bend over and take it deep for corporate special interests?So I don’t need to hear about your god, your bible, or your religious ramblings.Just go way!

  • Doug

    I’ve been interested in the comments here, since I had never heard of George Carlin until today, but of course had watched Tim Russert many times, and enjoyed his genuinity and searching questions.Both of these men seem to have had tremendous personal authenticity (i.e. no hypocrisy). Since that seems to top the list of what would seem to square with Biblical “good things to be”, then perhaps they both have had the pleasant surprise of finding themselves in a place where everyone is authentic, true to their truest selves, right down to the core.

  • Dr.R.P.

    Ms. Hoffman,Your BLASPHEMOUS comments regarding worship of the almighty FRISBEE condemn your soul to FALL OFF the roof and be chewed up by a slobbering St. Bernard!It’s true because I WANT it to be true!

  • Anonymous

    Ah, I see words from the Holy Book of Frisbeetarianism, from the Gospel of Dr. R.P.

  • artistkvip

    i never met george carlan, i had the pleasure and honer of meeting the comedian gallager in new orleans when i was a mcdonalds manager and our convetion was there at the hyatt regency .. and he was our entertainment, i was the one in audience that for some reason he picked to come up on stage and introduce him, i had a lariate that went round and round i had to hold and it was powered by my hands using an eggbeater like contraption, for some reason when it comes to comedy i dont freeze up like i do when i get infront of a crowd with my guitar or to speak and i introduced him as our next regional manager, and got a good appause from my feloow wine saturated at the time managers.. i dont drink now .. i havent for years but i was feeling no pain that nite… and i guess because i handled that welll he picked on me for many of his tricks including the sledgeomatic watermelon splitter.. there is something about commedians that brings out the best in people of all kinds some times.. they seem to be able to talk about things that others cant… and get people to actually think. my personal favorite from george was his line…they missed the boat when they had the chance to name the birth control pil… inconcieveablee.. and he worked his eyes and eyebrows… i have a mind pictur 2 this day of him..i dont speak for God or understand God but maybe its possible God has a sense of humour and wanted george to entertain him and maybe with all the fine people that are dying of heart attacks here in these bunches that saddens us all maybe God himself is sending the message to world leaders, robber barrons, and people who would use violence instead of diplomacy… that there is no bomb shelter deep enough to protect them from God when God calls them home,.. nor is there any pacemaker or doctor or hospital anywhere that will stopp the simple truth that we all are here but for a certain amount of time and maybe we should be the nicest we can and yes maybe learn to laugh at a lot of things intead of blowing things up or physically harming other humans with direct or inderect actions like those caused by greed and [poverty….i know God could at any time change our world drastically by removing not the blessed ones to heaven but the ones that cause the pain to where ever they go i’m not smart enough to know where that is.. thank you george in my opinion well done but i’m jus the dyslexic artist son of a bluridge mountain hillbilly please check 4 truth

  • Anonymous

    freestinker thinks:”the truth hurts, don’t it?”And wants me to agree- but no. I don’t.Truth only hurts those who are heavily invested in avoiding it. Think how truth gets all up in the face of an addict in rehab.George was a comic who interpreted the world as he saw it. In his later years- he gave up on the human race and didn’t care about the outcome. He became distant, cynical, and angry. He watched for and exploited human frailties and failures. He actually rooted for a final huge destruction of humanity.That is the truth.

  • Amy

    The idea of burning in Hell is just plain laughable. There is no afterlife, no eternal soul, no Hell, and no God passing judgment based on whether we testified about our religious conversion with arms raised singing hallelujah just before partaking of a cannibalistic act (symbolically of course).What if the people who proclaim most vociferously that everyone else is going to hell are the ones who go first for their sin of arrogance? According to their own religion it’s up to god to decide, so who are they to pass judgment?Ahhhh the whole thing is just so absurd. It’s a pity so many people believe in this ridiculous pack of fairy tales.

  • paul c

    Amy:

  • Dr.R.P.

    Paul C wrote:”What makes you think these concepts are so laughable? After all, they are shared by 90% of all Americans.”…and that is suppose to convince me of what?

  • thomas

    “…and that is suppose to convince me of what?”Your views are in the minority. When you speak-most people will not agree. You are not even a voting block- so you have no political voice. Although you believe your views are superior- only a select few care..Are you convinced? You ought to be.

  • Fate

    Paul C wrote: “However, how are you so sure there’s no God or afterlife? What makes you think these concepts are so laughable? After all, they are shared by 90% of all Americans.”A majority of American votes for GWBush after he had lied about WMD and outed a CIA agent. So a majority of Americans is not a good measure of what is right. However, when you consider the world, which rightly rejected Bush and his neocon ideals, the majority are not christian, with christians only occupying about a quarter of humanity. Maybe you should worry that another religion is correct? Or are they laughable to you for some reason?Also, if you study other religions you will see that an afterlife and god(s) is the norm. It was not invented by the Hebrews of Christians. It goes waaaaay back. Who is to say being buried under a pyramid with your body preserved will not get you to heaven? I’m sure 90% of ancient Egyptians shared that belief. Why is it therefore laughable today? Why are you not covering your bets and being buried that way, just in case? Do you think the ancient Egyptians did not believe in their gods? That they did not believe in what the Book of the Dead said about the afterlife and how to get there? Much of it is similar to the christian belief, except Osiris greets you at the gate and not Peter, but overall, not so different. What you need to consider is WHY christianity’s promises of an afterlife are not laughable, considering how many times it has been prophesicized that the world would end, and did not.

  • Anonymous

    Thomas wrote:”Your views are in the minority. When you speak-most people will not agree. You are not even a voting block- so you have no political voice. Although you believe your views are superior- only a select few care..”Fortunately, the truth is not a democracy. The universe is what it is, and doesn’t care what you, I, or 300million other Americans think, even if they are delusional.

  • Dr.R.P.

    That last comment to Thomas was from me.

  • Amy

    Paul, argumentum ad populum isn’t a compelling argument. After all, a majority of the population also believes in UFOs, ESP, and a bunch of other unsubstantiated urban legends and demonstrably faked “phenomenon.”Believers don’t really, in fact, believe in phenomena. They believe in the veracity of the oral tradition because they trust the storytellers of their culture. If you had grown up in another culture you’d be 100% sure of whatever fairy tales the shamans & elders of that culture had told you. It’s human nature. That doesn’t make it right, just understandable. Trusting in authority figures is how we became the dominant species that we are. Mom says don’t put your hand on the stove, we do it anyway, and then we learn that Mom was right after all. So when Mom says God watches over us when we sleep, we believe her. We’re expected to give up the belief in Santa Claus & the Tooth Fairy as we grow up, but our society reinforces the god stuff because it’s in society’s best interest for everyone to be obedient to the same principles and laws… but that doesn’t mean there really is a Sky-Daddy throwing people who don’t properly suck up to him into a fiery pit after they die.The Bible is a quaint collection of history, hallucinations, lies, propaganda, and story-telling. That’s the only possible explanation for its inconsistencies, relation to other belief systems of its day and bizarre ramblings. If there really were an all-knowing, all-powerful god who revealed himself to scribes & writers he would have done a much better job.

  • Brambleton

    As an aside, most people (including Christians) have taken the whole “judging” proclamation completely out of context. Supporting an argument by taking one sentence, in this case “Judge not lest ye be judged”, out of an entire passage is, to put it bluntly, absurd.If you studied the context of the message, I think you would see that Jesus held these two juxtaposed teachings (judgment vs. discernment) together. As if to say that you will judge AND you will discern, you just need not always speak your judgment or speak your discernment.The greek word, krino, that has been translated to the English “judge” does not carry the negative connotation that we have given it. Plus, it’s primary meaning is that of discernment – which I’m sure we would all agree is a good thing.

  • Arminius

    Thomas,”No one in this world has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.”For proof, see George W Bush.

  • Brambleton

    Fate,Could you tell me what religion or other belief system includes the resurrection of the body? Don’t bother because you won’t find it. The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the single, most unique hope.

  • Jerry

    George was a comedian not a theologian. His views on religion are no more relevant than Billy Crystal’s or Bob Hope’s. He’s either nowhere or somewhere. Either way he was a funny man.

  • Amy

    Brambleton, you said “Could you tell me what religion or other belief system includes the resurrection of the body? Don’t bother because you won’t find it. The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the single, most unique hope.”… since argumentum ad populum seems to be a favorite device of christians, doesn’t this mean that Christianity is likelier to be WRONG because of that uniqueness?

  • surfbum

    Arminius and Amy:Right on! I totally agree with you!

  • paul c

    My point was that anything believed by 90% of the people has to be given some respect, especially when it can not be proven to be wrong by anyone. The most any atheist can truthfully say is “I see no evidence of God, therefore I don’t believe.” Its hard to believe how eager and how vigorously some atheists are in ridiculing the faithful given that there is no way to actually disprove the existence of God. Its fine to have an opinion. Its the unsubstantiated criticism of people with opposing opinions that I object to .

  • Brambleton

    Amy,Absolutely not. It gives us the unbelievable hope that is not provided through any other belief system or through the myth of enlightenment.

  • thomas

    To all non-believers who expressed upset with Americans and our form of government:You might prefer to live among a non-believer majority under an atheistic form of government. That is clearly available to you- but you might be surprised and long to be back among the “inferior and stupid” American masses.

  • Arminius

    Thomas,I am quite content with the American form of government as defined by our Constitution. I am not always happy – actually, seldom happy – with the choices that the electorate makes. Especially now, because I am outraged at how the current administration has twisted our ConstitutionOh, yeah – I am a believer.

  • Fate

    paul c wrote: “My point was that anything believed by 90% of the people has to be given some respect, especially when it can not be proven to be wrong by anyone.”90% of Americans, but less than half of the people of earth. And not being able to prove a negative is no measure of proof. Can you prove Carlin’s soul is NOT sitting on someone’s roof somewhere? I thought not.paul c wrote: “The most any atheist can truthfully say is “I see no evidence of God, therefore I don’t believe.”Absolutely correct, but not just in the Judaeo/Christian/Muslim God, but in the Hindu gods, the Cherokee gods, gods from past religions, etc… In fact, we probably agree on the existance of most gods except that one god you believe in.paul c wrote: “Its hard to believe how eager and how vigorously some atheists are in ridiculing the faithful given that there is no way to actually disprove the existence of God.”And no way to prove God’s existance. The problem atheists have is that His existance is shoved down their throats everyday.paul c wrote: “Its fine to have an opinion. Its the unsubstantiated criticism of people with opposing opinions that I object to .”Extraordinary statements require extraordinary proof. The existance of an all powerful God, who has dominion over all our souls, who can send you and me to hell in a heartbeat requires some proof. You and other’s of this *belief* offer NO proof, yet continue to tell me I am damned. Well, I think the onus is on you and others who insist you are right, not on those of use who roll our eyes when we hear stories of raising people from the dead, feeding thousands with a few loafs of bread, and other stories with as much proof behind them as the ancient Egyptians had for their beliefs, which they also wrote down and also contain some stories I am sure you would roll your eyes at but cannot disprove.

  • Amy

    Thomas – I’m a non-believer and I love our form of government. Instead of the religion-dominated governments of Europe, our founders realized that mixing religion and government was a fatal recipe for both. Also, thanks to the First Amendment, not only am I guaranteed the right to believe (or not) as I choose, I have the right to express my opinion about it. I don’t recall reading anything in this blog about believers not liking our form of government. It’s usually christians who get upset when people assert their first amendment rights to disagree with them, which is pretty funny since they’d all be *gasp* Episcopalians and not baptists or church-of-christ or mormon or whatever if our founders hadn’t had the good sense to keep government out of religion. Personally, I think if we were to have a “Christian nation” that defined Christianity in such a way as to disenfranchise mormons, scientologists, falung gong pamphleteers, hari krishna flower peddlers and jehovah’s witnesses, that would be an improvement. At least we wouldn’t be accosted by strangers. Also, it would be good to eliminate baptist churches since dunking people is just plain stupid when a little sprinkle would do. …and all those denominations that make their followers think they have to convert everyone. Since in that kind of country everyone would be forced to believe the same thing there’d be no point in evangelizing.

  • Mr Mark

    Paul C -90% of Americans believed the lies that Colin Powell told at the UN, ie: his averring that Saddam had WMD. Not only was no evidence to the contrary presented by Powell, but false evidence (witness) was presented by him to make bush’s case for war.So, are those lies that Powell told “to be given some respect,” even after they’ve been shown absolutely to have been lies, lies that Powell and bush KNEW were lies as he uttered them?Similarly, are the obvious falsehoods of the Bible (ie: scientific and historical lies) to be “given some respect” now that modern-day experts in these disciplines have conclusively put the lie to the ramblings of a bunch of fearful and ignorant nomads?If we do not choose to extend respect to these clear falsehoods in the Bible, do we not rightfully and honestly look with suspicion on the other truth claims of the Bible, claims made in a book that has proven to be littered with myriad falsehoods and myths?Actually, Paul, the most any atheist can truthfully say is “I see no evidence that the Bible is truthful on a whole range of material things, so why should I believe its truthful when it claims authority on non-material things?”When the believers find that THEY can be as truthful with themselves in this regard as are the atheists, then we’ll be talking about real progress in this world.In the meanwhile, claiming that 90% of people believe something is as much a proof for delusion as it is a claim for truth. The only difference between Powell’s claims and those of the Bible is the degree of intent to delude, which in Powell’s case was 100%…and which is in the Bible’s case harder to quantify.

  • Believe

    Mr. MarkName something in the Bible that is not true.

  • Amy

    Paul, you said “Absolutely not. It gives us the unbelievable hope that is not provided through any other belief system or through the myth of enlightenment.”So… you believe that christianity is right because it’s more comforting to you than other religions (that you know of). If something came along that offered a better story about what the afterlife was like, would you dump christianity? Let’s say there’s an afterlife, and if you follow certain rules and join this sect you die and then you get to have sex with 24 virgins and … oh wait…

  • autonomous

    THINKINGMAN – the universe designs itself as it goes along. It gives every appearance of being an emergent phenomenon. Harder to believe for the anthropomorphically inclined among us – but actually far better supported by evidence than the ‘designer’ idea. The whole ‘trial and error’ scheme so obviously inherent in the fabric of the universe belies the idea of a cosmic designer – and setting aside our conflated self-importance for a moment lets the brain breath. Religionists just need a little more oxygen….hyperventilating over God is not really breathing to your best advantage.

  • Arminius

    The religious poll in question, done by the Pew Center for Religion and Public Life, indeed did report that 90% of Americans are believers of some sort. But – and this could be important – 70% said that many religions can lead to eternal life, and 68& said that there is more than one way to interpret their religion.Hmmmmm……..

  • Mr Mark

    Believe writes:”Mr. MarkName something in the Bible that is not true.”Do your own research. I’m tired of providing the legwork for lazy-ass parasites like you.

  • thomas

    “I’m a non-believer and I love our form of government.”Amy- wise choice to dwell among majority Christians under a form of government founded by believers.I think you will agree with me: Non-believers do not make good leaders and do not form lasting governments.As for the rest of your post- next time serve some cheese with that whine..

  • surfbum

    believe:I’ll answer that one. The whole bible is a bunch of sh!t. I think I would like to wipe my ass with a bible. Who do you like them apples!

  • Fate

    Thomas,I love our form of government. I and many others have been speaking out since the first days of this corrupt administration. Its taken the evangelicals a lot longer to realize what they voted for. Why is that so? But I believed that the Consitution, if it was defended, would stop Bush and his cronies, and we are seeing that being applied, too late in my opinion thanks to a republican congress until a year ago, but it is being applied. Just because someone does not like the president does not make them unAmerican. In fact, it is love of the Constitution, not a president or a religion, that makes one a good American. I consider anyone who supports our current president and his policies to be unAmerican, not because I hate Bush but because I love our Consitution, which Bush was overheard to say was a g-dd-mned pience of paper. Many who support Bush love their religion over the Consitution. To them I say they can go back in time and live in the Holy Roman Empire, where torture was also authorized by government officials.One has to wonder how many Bush appointees, and Bush himself, will burn in hell for swearing on the bible that they would uphold and defend the Consitution. Something for the believers, who are the majority of Bush’s current supporters, to contemplate.

  • Arminius

    Believe -Mr Mark -

  • Anonymous

    “The whole bible is a bunch of sh!t. I think I would like to wipe my ass with a bible.” Wow surfbum- that was brave. You know how wrathul those vindictive Christians are.Now as an equal opportunity haters of all religions- I dare you to make that statement about the Koran.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Believe:Try this: one of these statements isn’t true -When was Jesus born?Herod died in 4BC”And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)”Cyrenius became governor in 6CE.Two Biblical statements, one says Jesus was born when Herod was alive – ie: before 4BC – one says Jesus was born when Cyrenius was governor of Syria – ie: after 6CE. That’s a difference between the birth dates of 10 years, minimum.They can’t both be right. So, which one is wrong?Thanks in advance for your considered answer.

  • Mr Mark

    Arminius -Before I believe that 90% of Americans believe in god, I’d want to see a breakdown by category. I have the sneaking suspicion that a large portion of their sample included dyslexic dog lovers…

  • L.Kurt Engelhart

    “The idea of burning in Hell is just plain laughable.”I am sure you would not understand this, but what I believe is what is important to me. I believe GWB will burn in Hell, and I believe George Carlin’s Truth is marching on. These kinds of beliefs make life worth living to me.

  • Christian

    It’s amazing how many people come to this “On Faith” page who seem to have anger toward God. E-Favorite, you said you don’t read the Bible because you believe it to be nothing more than myths. That’s part of the problem. You all are looking at “Christians” who are sinners just like you and basing your view of God on their sins. If you really want to know God, you have to read the Bible for youself.

  • Arminius

    Mr Mark,Go to the website for the Pew Center on Religion, the report can be accessed there. That’s where I got the figures.BTW, the differences on the date of Jesus’ birth are truly mystifying….. nope, this believer has no answer.

  • E Favorite

    Anon: “Unless(like surfbum)he thinks that making a statement of belief is hateful, wrathful and vindictive”Thanks for proving my point. A statement of belief which includes how others will suffer if they don’t believe what you do is indeed “hateful, wrathful and vindictive.”

  • Anonymous

    “George Carlin’s Truth is marching on”George Carlin died and his “truth” goes with him to the grave. If your faith in one George and your damnation of another George helps you cope with life- good luck.

  • surfbum

    “You know how wrathul those vindictive Christians are”Yea, like the ones blowing up family planning clinics or terrorizing a family with a brain dead daughter or the ones stalking gynecologists and harrassing their children on the way to school.And christians like f**k head GWB who start wars that kill thousands of people. Remember GWB said jesus was his favorite philospher. Would jesus say, “Right on, dude, let’s start the bombing and spread some freedom. Shock and awe them, dubya!””You’re doin’ a heckuva job!” “Mission accomplished!” “The insurgency is in its last throes.” “Cake walk” “Slam dunk” “We’ll be greated as liberators” “Bring ‘em on.”

  • YEP

    >>After all, people still talk about Lenny Bruce. Chet Huntley? Not so much.Interesting observation. People like Bruce, Hefner, Flynt and Carlin have certainly made their mark on our society. A mark under the guise of free speech and under the umbrella of comedy/entertainment. Talk of them is talk of little or no substance. They are looked upon by some as champions of free speech…….but will they be remembered for how they helped strengthen the society they were in? In the long term, I believe they won’t.History of other civilizations tells.

  • L.Kurt Engelhart

    “If your faith in one George and your damnation of another George helps you cope with life- good luck.”Thanks.

  • Brambleton

    Fate,You said, “I consider anyone who supports our current president and his policies to be unAmerican.” C’mon – you can’t be serious. I’m guessing that, inherently, you meant the support of SOME of his policies?Or I guess I’m “unAmerican” because I don’t support the redistribution of wealth? Or maybe I’m “unAmerican” because I don’t believe you should tax the H*ll out of the rich just because you can. I know that might sound elitist, but I’m sorry, when 20% of the population is paying 80% of the tax, there’s a problem.I know, I know. The Dems don’t see it that way because they’re too busy passing minimum wages that help about a dozen people. Way to go!!

  • Anonymous

    “A statement of belief which includes how others will suffer if they don’t believe what you do is indeed “hateful, wrathful and vindictive.”Non-believers repeatedly state there is no afterlife and believers don’t fret over the hopelessness and meaninglessness of life in that thought system- because they don’t believe it.You’ve got some issues you are unknowingly airing on a public board if you believe that a statement of belief you don’t believe in is “hateful, wrathful and vindictive”. If you don’t believe in hell -why aren’t you laughing like others who post to this thread?

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Believe:No, the dating of Cyrenius’ governorship doesn’t come from Josephus. Matthew 2:22 actually confirms the succession of the governorship of Herod to his son, Archelaus Herod AFTER Herod’s death. Matthew states that Archelaus ruled at the time Mary & Joseph made the Flight into Egypt. Cyrenius famously succeed Archelaus. Look further and you’ll find the usual non-Biblical confirming references as well.BTW – it might interest you to know that the majority of Biblical scholars believe that Luke got Jesus’ birth date wrong and that Matthew is correct.Ergo, if you (ie: Believe) were to ask your typical Biblical scholar to, “name something in the Bible that is not true,” Luke’s accounting of the year of Jesus’ birth would be on most Biblical scholars’ short list.For some reason, I don’t think that you’d take that response as a valid answer. But will you accept Matthew’s evidence as proof that Luke is wrong? Is it possible that you know as little about the Bible as you do about history? Seems likely.

  • E Favorite

    Christian, I said I think the Bible is stories and myths. I did NOT say that I don’t read it. I have spent time reading the Bible, in some cases in church-sponsored adult education classes taught by seminary professors, when I was a church goer. I’ve also read books by professors of religion and archeology which present the bible as story and myth. Try “Misquoting Jesus” by Bart Erhmann and the Bible Unearthed, by Finkelstein and Silberman.And again I ask you to consider that atheists are not angry at God, who doesn’t exist. They are angry with certain aspects of religion, that do exist.

  • What?

    >>BTW, the differences on the date of Jesus’ birth are truly mystifying….. nope, this believer has no answer.Jesus’ birth took place at/around the time of harvest (the fall..the Romans knew their constituents would have the $$ then…)…There are no accounts, anywhere, of Roman taxation of its provinces in the dead of winter. It amazes me to this day that many, many do not even realize that it actually snows in Bethlehem and the sheppards have long had their sheep in for the winter. The adversary has certainly done his job to fulfill Rev. 12:9, in this example, re: Christianity. The whole world (in this case, the whole world of Christianity) has been deceived and has fallen for the lie that Jesus was born on Dec. 25. And even those who believe and state that it really wasnt His date of birth, yet they feel its ‘right’ (by mans edict) to observe that date as His birth, cannot justify their view with scripture…anywhere. The Word, who later became Jesus Christ, expounds numerous time in the OT not to do as the heathen (Christmas is a compiliation of heathen (pagan) practices). That same Word, who became Jesus Christ, is stated in Hebrews (NT) as being the same yesterday, today and forever. Very easy to connect it all together. Its all there. The bible actually interprets itself. What a concept!

  • Brambleton

    Andrew,I think Carlin’s heyday was before my time, but I’m assuming that in the passage you quote, George knew he wasn’t speaking Biblical truth? That is, he’s making fun of something that Christians themselves don’t even believe. So how is that funny?Maybe I’m just more of a Lewis Black fan.

  • Wesley

    He lived his life without God and his bitter angry diatribes were the result. He now gets his wish and will be in the coldest loneliest place there is -HELL

  • Brambleton

    Mr Mark,Good points. But I still fail to see why the “rich” should be taxed substantially more than anyone else. Why should anyone be penalized because they have accumulated wealth or are in a position of significant importance (i.e., CEO, CFO, President, etc.)?Sarcasm aside, I truly don’t understand the logic.

  • james

    And christians like f**k head GWB who start wars that kill thousands of people. Remember GWB said jesus was his favorite philospher. Would jesus say, “Right on, dude, let’s start the bombing and spread some freedom. Shock and awe them, dubya!”What will nutjobs like you do when GWB leaves office? Who then will you obsess about, blame for eveything YOU see wrong in the world? Get help, quickly nutjob.

  • E Favorite

    Anon says:”You’ve got some issues you are unknowingly airing on a public board if you believe that a statement of belief you don’t believe in is “hateful, wrathful and vindictive”. I also think it’s hateful, etc. to believe in honor killings, even though I don’t believe in them myself. I generally think it’s hateful to wish unpleasant things, even imaginary ones, on other people. For instance, I don’t think it’s healthy to focus on wishing people that you don’t like will have some terrible illness befall them, even if you can’t make the illness happen. I don’t know any moral code that condones that sort of thing. But certain Christians do think it’s OK, even good, to publicly wish eternal suffering on others. I have issues with that.

  • Karmic Choirboy

    I remember George saying that when you die your soul goes to a garage in Buffalo.I also remember him saying that religion has a purpose but you must outgrow it.He also said something about foreign missions being nothing more than nailing sandals/shoes onto the feet of natives.What I believe George was saying most profoundly was something about the incredible spiritual materialsm that Christianity is so proud of and touts as if it was the truth.Spiritual materialism is the desire to be “more holy”, “more moral”, “more ‘spiritual’” than anyone. We see it so readily on every religious TV station. The most blatant and current example of it would be the Joel Osteen nonsense and the Osteen-tards that fill that place up every chance they get. But Christians never run out of that crap. They’re so hungry for something real.George was a deeply spiritual man in that he lived and loved this life in a connected way. He took risks, he oppossed the ones who think they are “the ones” and he made sure that we all knew we had options that did not include creating false personalties to impress others and seduce god into believing we’re really super-fine people. George ain’t in no stinkin’ heaven. I would be appalled if he were. I pray to god I never will be. What torture to be around all those arrogant Christians playing harps. But I am confident in this, he IS in that garage in Buffalo and he’s having a great time of it.

  • surfbum

    James”What will nutjobs like you do when GWB leaves office?”I and the rest of the planet will breathe a collective sigh of relief when the war criminal GWB leaves office. I have two wishes. The first wish is that war criminals GWB, cheney, rumsfeld, and rice be tried at the Hague for war crimes against humanity. My second wish is that GWB and cheney be found guilty and then publicly hanged in the same manner as saddam hussein.

  • Hmmmm?

    George said what so many of us feel. It doesn’t mean he was correct, but at least he let those of us who agonize over faith know that we’re not alone. It’s easy to see why people become cynical about organized religion given the way its practitioners behave. I don’t think there’s a single belief system that hasn’t been screwed up by humans. I have a problem with any religion that claims to be the only one, the only true way to get to “heaven.” It’s wonderful that so many people seem to “know” that they are “saved,” but it’s not a feeling I’ve ever had and may never have. I don’t know what you’d call me — someone who believes in a higher power but doesn’t yet know exactly which way is best to practice that faith. A confusedtarian, maybe?

  • Mr Mark

    Brambleton writes:”Mr Mark,Good points. But I still fail to see why the “rich” should be taxed substantially more than anyone else. Why should anyone be penalized because they have accumulated wealth or are in a position of significant importance (i.e., CEO, CFO, President, etc.)?”Were all things equal, I would agree with you. But the fact is that most Americans who are rich have inherited their wealth. They are not self-made entrepreneurs by any stretch of the imagination.Next, there are the unfair advantages that are given to the rich every day of the week that the rabble will never see, advantages in the tax code, for example. When Warren Buffet acknowledges that his secretary is taxed at a higher rate than is he, there’s something very wrong with the system.And, in the real world, the rich have untold advantages in being able to pay cash for possessions like homes and cars, while the middle class and the poor deal with subprime loans and soaring credit card debt. Anybody with a 30-year mortgage will have paid 300% of their home’s original value by the time they pay off the mortgage. A rich person paid that mortgage as cash or on a 10-year fixed rate.The current tax code along with government bailouts to big business amount to socialization of costs and privatization of profit. A progressive tax code seeks to compensate for these built-in inequities. A flat tax ignores them.I don’t know many Americans who would be against a 90% tax rate on the rich if they were making $1MM per year. They’d be happy with keeping $100,000. But the reality is that most American families are making under $50,000 per year and paying 25% in taxes. That means that they’re left with about $36k when all is said and done. That’s lunch and a back rub for America’s super rich.Nobody said that godless capitalism was a perfect system, but it can and should be made a less-imperfect system. Taxing the rich at higher rates as an offset to the myriad advantages they already receive seems equitable to me.BTW – I’ve never made more than $150k in a given year, so I’m hardly rich. The years I’ve done well and owned a home, I’ve been more than happy to pay my fair share of taxes. It’s part of the social contract we all have in a capitalistic democracy. That my fair share is a higher percentage of my income than that of someone less fortunate doesn’t bother me. It does bother me that Warren Buffet pays a lower percentage than do I.Am I crazy, or is the present system unfair?

  • captn_ahab

    George Carlin had the courage to tell the truth, but in a way that made us laugh at the absurdity of the ways in which we hide from truth. He also had the courage to face the fact that when you die, you’re dead, finito, end of story. That is something that takes the most courage. It is easy to laugh at life, but not at the reality of death. George Carlin laughed at both. That’s what made him a comedians comedian, and that’s no laughing matter.

  • Germanprof

    Where do atheists go when they die?Exactly where they want!

  • Germanprof

    Where do atheists go when they die?Exactly where they want!

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Believe -All you’ve proved through your posts to me is that you are just another Xian who is unable to give a straight answer and who is unwilling to admit when they’ve lost an argument.You say “Name something in the Bible that is not true,” I point you to Luke. You offer a non-answer: “Luke has proven himself over and over throughout the centuries to be a reliable historian, even in the details. In his making reference to 32 countries, 54 cities, and 9 islands, Luke made no mistakes.”EXCEPT FOR THE DETAIL THAT’S THE F**KING DATING OF JESUS’ BIRTH, WHICH HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9 ISLANDS OR 32 COUNTRIES.Why can’t you bring yourself to admit the contradiction between Matthew and Luke? Afraid you’ll lose your faith?And – as to be expected – when the Xian’s “facts” are shown not to be true, the facts blissfully traipse over into metaphor-land: “Again, Mark. You’re missing the point. God is [isn't?]interested in how smart you are, he’s interested in how willing you are.”

  • Arminius

    Mr Mark,Allow this believer to commend you on your views and your ability to do research and present it well. I was trying to compose something to Brambleton when your post hit.In 1963, the highest tax rate was 91%. It was lowered the next year, under the democrats, to 70%. In 1982, it was lowered to 50% under Reagan. In 1987, it was lowered again to 39.6 or so. The Shrub lowered it to 35%. He then proceeded to give us a war, a record deficit, expand spending, and manage to send the dollar down to record low levels…. not to mention other lovely things, like torture and the perversion of the constitution… what a knuckledragging monster.And Brambleton, with his robber baron mentality, thinks that is just fine. Where does he get his weird idea of Christianity, anyway? It sure as hell ain’t from the Gospels.Keep it up!Arminius

  • patrick

    carlin was indeed funny. i died laughing at him on Yutube yesterday. it was my first time as i was lost to america’s tv personalities during the sixties and much of the seventies. but i feel that a careful examination of carlin’s ideas indicate a rather empty tin can with the marble (it was hardly a mere stone). he mouthed the nihiltic culture that destroyed many in the sixties and early seventies,and that drove the following generation into a radicalism that represents the most cravish accomodation to the status quo, while wallowing in mindless consumerism. There was nothing new about his attacks on religion and tradition, favorites of the enlightenment self-legitimation tactics for quite some time, except that he threw in the F-word, the nihilistic attitude that is ironically the outcome of the enlightenment, with and its state and individual human reason as lawgivers. He attacked religion for it’s inclination to go to war, but forgot modernist universalisms: communism, fascism and liberal democracy. Yes, that icon too. Just look at george and the neo cons headed for the oil fields to bring democracy to the middle east. Look at US policy during the Cold War. Democracy at the barrel of a gun, really no different from the Russian or Chinese gun except that some businessmen made a fortune. These three killed, and killed lots more than any wars of religion. About a hundren million actually, and that does not include the dead in Iraq, and the four million refugees that are close to the living dead. Carlin attacked consumerism, which is nothing other than rampant egoism, in fact anomic egoism in a materialist market determined world that can produce anything and everything that can be imagined by anybody. The human imagination for entertainment gadgets is indeed limitless. But did any of these attacks give Carlin a lead on what an alternative world might look like. i don’t know whether or not Carlin took the hippie in the woods route, but i doubt it. Did he have a woodshed for the toilet activities he seemed to know so intimately? or did he too have a jacuzzi? does it matter? No. whether he took a dump into an Asian style hole in the ground or had a golden throne, it had not one whit of an influence over our world. His greatest impact, was to legitimate the naysayers, those who stand for nothing except their freedom to do whatever they please no matter what the consequences. Yes, Carlin was entertaining or so i found him, but that does not blind me to the lack of content.

  • Phil

    They go to the same place all humans go, back to nature, remaining only in the memory of loved ones or if one is a pol, the history books, for good or bad. In Bush’s case, he be bad.

  • Heather

    Carlin was funny back in his early years, but in last fifteen, he was nothing more than a whiny has-been. George Burns was funny right up to his 100th year of existence. George Carlin lost it and didn’t know when to quit. And all the hateful comments he made about Jews and Israel were all it took to make me despise him. It amazes me that a professed atheist could take such cheap shots at a religious group so persecuted, a group that has always kept to itself and never caused any trouble for anyone else. What the heck was it about Jews and Israel that George Carlin and his following felt so threatened that they had to lash out at them so much? I won’t miss him at all. Good riddance!

  • Proteus

    If the truth gets you in Heaven he is probably the only one there.

  • Jihadist

    Wesley: “He (George Carlin) lived his life without God and his bitter angry diatribes were the result. He now gets his wish and will be in the coldest loneliest place there is -HELL”What happen to the fire and brimstone of hell that makes it a hot and hellish place to be? And who says Hell is the loneliest place there is? Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, Timurlane, Saddam Hussein..the list goes on of people said will go to hell by some other people. Most interesting place for George Carlin in fact. He’d love it there and have no shortage of materials. *************************************************Anonymous: “Wow surfbum- that was brave. You know how wrathul those vindictive Christians are. Now as an equal opportunity haters of all religions- I dare you to make that statement about the Koran.”————————————————–Hello Surfbum, Uhhh! No toilet paper on the beach, eh? And using one of the seven words not to use on TV and WaPo as first tabulated by George Carlin? Where can we send you a ton of or a lifetime supply of toilet paper as a humanitarian act since you obviously can’t afford it? Excuse me? Oh. You were making a militant anti-religion statement and personal plan of action to smite and wipe out religion! I see……Okay. How’s the surf, Surfbum? Up? If not, pray to God for a good surf. Bar that, listen to the weather report. Hope there’s no tsunami when you are surfing. If there be a tsunami while you are surfing, well, consider it either an act of nature or a scourge of God. We will not pray for you to find and be in peace or to rest in peace, whichever comes first, as you obviously don’t want us to. Ah, well, one less fellow to pray for. Whew!————————————————–Hello Anonymous, Surfbum can always purchase a copy of the Qur’an to wipe his/her whatever. He or she can even call CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera to cover that event. Or he or she can video that and put it on YouTube. It will be the most popular video on YouTube. Then we’ll demonstrate and rampage in the streets chanting “Off with Surfbum’s Surfboard!” or “Surfbum is a scumbag!” or “Surfbum’s bum is nothing!” And such…Cheers to George Carlin “J”

  • paul c

    I find it very interesting that the generic atheist response to the point that 90% of Americans are believers was to say how stupid and/or gullible the 90% are (usually in terms associated with the Bush adminstration). Do all atheists inherently believe that they are smarter that the rest of us?As for proof of God. You can’t see or measure God because anyone or anything capable of creating a universe is too big for us to contemplate directly. However, you can see the work that he does and extrapolate his existence from it. I’m sure you are all aware of the arguments associated with the order of the universe requiring intelligence to create and maintain. If there is a law of gravity, there needs to be a law maker. Not one of you has given a good answer to the problem of how order was created from chaos without a God to order it. While the existence of God the father can be discerned with Logic and observation, I submit that existence of Christ the son relies on the credibility of accounts through the ages. Maybe some of you doubt that credibility. That is your right. Here’s what I believe: It can be demonstrated to most reasonable people that the coming of a messiah had been foretold for hundreds of years prior to the birth of Jesus. Jesus told us he was the son of God and worked a number of miracles as testimony to that fact, according to a number of witnesses, many of whom ultimately died rather than deviate from that truth. He preached a gospel of love, stating that only two things were required : love God and love your neighbor as yourself. As the final proof of his divinity, Jesus was crucified, died and then rose from the dead, a fact St. Paul tells us was witnessed by over 500 people.

  • Another former alter boy gone bad! I mean sensible

    Amy says it best! Nothing more needs to be said except I will miss George Carlin very much. Just knowing he was out there, in more ways than one, was a comfort to me.

  • Wondering

    OK, so a lot of what is in the Bible can be traced historically. But the Bible was passed on as oral history, then edited by men — Christian men — who had a stake in the matter. By the time the first book was written, Christ had been dead nearly 100 years. There is no “proof” other than hearsay that many of the events in the life of Christ actually happened. I’m not saying they didn’t, but unless you have Polaroids of Christ casting out demons, these things have to be taken on faith. I had a recently converted Christian tell me repeatedaly that there were no dinosaurs because they were not mentioned in the Bible. She couldn’t quite explain the bones we keep finding. It’s that kind of blind acceptance of the Bible as totally true that makes thinking Christians look bad.

  • Jihadist

    Another former alter boy gone bad! I mean sensible: “Just knowing he (George Carlin) was out there, in more ways than one, was a comfort to me.”Yes. Obviously Mr. George Carlin is still “out there”. We still have and can buy or rent his performances in CDs and DVDs to continue giving “comfort” and/or “discomfort” depending on your sense of humour. Sensible of Mr. Carlin to make records and taped shows, no? Cheers

  • Dave

    Nice argument, Paul C. And I guess Santa Claus exists because I was told he’d leave presents under the tree and it became true.There is no proof of God’s existence. Believers and disbelievers need to agree to disagree.

  • Jihadist

    Dave: “Nice argument, Paul C. And I guess Santa Claus exists because I was told he’d leave presents under the tree and it became true.”Come now. Of course Santa exist! We can see him, touch him, feel him, sit on his lap, and speak to him around Christmas. For Topeka to Tokyo there be Santa and more Santa around a certain season. And who says all Santas are “he”? I’ve seen svelte female Santas in Rio wearing red bikinis. A feast for the eyes and gifts to dads doing Christmas shopping in shooping malls and departmental stores. Believe in Santa. They are real. Cheers and out of here. “J”

  • Arminius

    Jihadist,You delightfully said, “And who says all Santas are “he”? I’ve seen svelte female Santas in Rio wearing red bikinis.”And you just converted this 65 year old to a believer in Santa Claus! Now if I can just get to Rio this December…..Arminius

  • Ailie

    Thomas wrote:Or not. I emigrated from the US over two years ago and don’t miss it one little bit. Not ANY of it. The secular government is fine with me. My neighbors are friendly and charming. I have no idea whether they are theists or not. It’s none of my business, just as my religion is none of theirs. I worship as I see fit.(Ok. The Yankees. I miss the Yankees. And sweet corn. Alright, I miss autumn in New England.) What I don’t miss are those ignorant American busybody evangelicals, and the mindless natterings of the hyper-patriots who believe that ‘Merica is some superior entity especially blessed by a God of their own invention.The sun shines in France, Spain, and Italy too. Deal with it.Nothing… and I mean NOTHING could induce me to return to the US.Just saying….

  • Koba

    Heather, when did Carlin ever say anything hateful about the Jews or Israel? If he criticized or ridiculed them, you must know that he never singled out anyone for this treatment. He was an equal opportunity comedian.

  • Zeke

    My oh my, the jesus freaks running around here are scary… think for yourselves people, the mind is a beautiful thing.

  • HeresLookingatYou

    I’d put Carlin in heaven playing frizbee for making people’s lives happy on earth….whil placing Dubya in hell .. for making life seem like hell for millions of people on earth!!

  • thebob.bob

    Same place everyone goes when they die. They get recycled. Or you can make up a fairy tale that makes you feel better. Go ahead, it’s OK.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Paul C -My, but you mangle the scriptures! To whit, you wrote:”Here’s what I believe: It can be demonstrated to most reasonable people that the coming of a messiah had been foretold for hundreds of years prior to the birth of Jesus.”Yes, but the promised messiah of the OT bears no resemblance to the one who showed up in the NT, and the one who showed up in the NT bore quite a bit of resemblance to the pagan gods that were popular at the time. Fancy that!Is it “reasonable” to believe that god would promise the Jews a warrior messiah whose advent on earth would instantly usher in an era of peace and justice, only to switch over to the resurrection god model of the pagans, a model roundly rejected by Judaism, even to this day? If you believe that, then it is reasonable to believe god breaks his promises.”Jesus told us he was the son of God”and I’m the president of the USA…”…and worked a number of miracles as testimony to that fact,”…of which no proof exists outside of the hearsay of the NT…”…according to a number of witnesses…” again, none from outside the NT…”…many of whom ultimately died rather than deviate from that truth.”…give us the name of ONE person who was witness to Christ’s supposed miracles who died rather than deviate from “the truth.” Clue – any stories about his apostles doing so are undocumented and the stuff of religious tradition, a tradition that is entirely missing from the Biblical canon.”As the final proof of his divinity, Jesus was crucified, died and then rose from the dead, a fact St. Paul tells us was witnessed by over 500 people.”Here, you are quite wrong. Paul states clearly that he saw a “vision” of Jesus. He never claimed that he saw a corporeal Jesus. Paul emphatically does not claim that 500 people witnessed Jesus crucifixion, death and return from the dead, which is what your post implies. What Paul states is that Jesus “appeared unto 500…and finally, unto me.” As Paul clearly states that he saw Jesus only as a vision, then it is also clear that he meant that the 500 ALSO saw Jesus only as A VISION.And just how reliable were these 500 Christian witnesses when confronted with their “I saw Jesus, did you see Jesus?” friends? I’d say, not very.You “believe” a pretty unique and ill-informed interpretation of some pretty clear crap from the NT.

  • Ash

    Regarding the coverage of Russert’s death as opposed to Carlin’s, I don’t think it is particularly surprising. Russert was “one of them” – a member of the media and a believer. Carlin was neither. It’s human nature to laud friends over strangers and people who resemble yourself over those who are different.Personally, Russert made no impression on my life. He seemed sort of blandly inoffensive, while Carlin was an inspiration. One of the joys of the internet is that we have plenty of outlets where we can celebrate his life even though we may feel the “official” news sources aren’t giving him his due.

  • Ailie

    Thomas wrote:Or not. I emigrated from the US over two years ago and don’t miss it one little bit. Not ANY of it. The secular government is fine with me. My neighbors are friendly and charming. I have no idea whether they are theists or not. It’s none of my business, just as my religion is none of theirs. I worship as I see fit.(Ok. The Yankees. I miss the Yankees. And sweet corn. Alright, I miss autumn in New England.) What I don’t miss are those ignorant American busybody evangelicals, and the mindless natterings of the hyper-patriots who believe that ‘Merica is some superior entity especially blessed by a God of their own invention.The sun shines in France, Spain, and Italy too. Deal with it.Nothing… and I mean NOTHING could induce me to return to the US.Just saying….

  • jhbyer

    George Carlin achieved true immortality through his work.

  • Fate

    Brambleton wrote: “Fate, You said, “I consider anyone who supports our current president and his policies to be unAmerican.” C’mon – you can’t be serious. I’m guessing that, inherently, you meant the support of SOME of his policies?”Actually, I only supported his decision to go to war with Afganistan’s Taliban and Al Qaida, both of which he screwed up as evidenced by 7 years later we are still fighting that war and neither leader has been captured or killed, and worse, I have to watch them on TV threatening me and live in fear.You also did not quote my full sentence, which explained my statement. Here is the full sentence: Brambleton wrote: “Or I guess I’m “unAmerican” because I don’t support the redistribution of wealth? Or maybe I’m “unAmerican” because I don’t believe you should tax the H*ll out of the rich just because you can. I know that might sound elitist, but I’m sorry, when 20% of the population is paying 80% of the tax, there’s a problem.”We can disagree on these points, but they have nothing to do with whether you love the Constitution or whether you get upset when you see it trampled on. Do you love the Constitution? Do you feel CIA agents should be exposed as a political vendetta? Do you believe hiring and firing of Justice employees should be done by political appointees looking for conservative credentials? Do you believe that to get a bill passed, as Medicare part D was, that you lie about the cost and threaten career civil servants with being fired to maintain the lie? Legislation that Bush supports or does not support is a minor problem. The trampling of our Constitution and the destruction of our government is a much larger problem, and that is why Bush supporters are unAmerican. The evidence is clear and more is coming to light every day. Anyone who continues to support Bush must not support the Constitution, plain and simple. Now, is Bush going to hell for swearing on a bible he would preserve, protect and defend the very Constitution he disparaged and has trampled?

  • Amy

    Russert was the uncle who brought the best gifts & a yummy dessert to family gatherings, bounced all the babies on his knees, and got the squabbling cousins to agree to disagree.Carlin was the curmudgeonly uncle who sat by the fireplace snorting over the hypocrisy of the neighbors and let you in on the family secrets when your parents weren’t paying attention.I loved them both.

  • Christian

    Christian: “Frisbeetariarism? No. There are only two choices: Heaven or Hell. It’s your choice.”Lighten up, Christian, it’s a JOKE!—————————-It is? George Carlin probably doesn’t think so anymore. Read Luke 16.

  • Judy

    How sad that so many people are so tied to their particular beliefs in the after life that they are fixated on where George Carlin is now. If,as some believe, people live on in the memories of those they touched, George is certainly immortal.

  • Norrie Hoyt

    GermanProf,You wrote:”Where do atheists go when they die?”Exactly where they want!”As you probably know, Emanuel Swedenborg (1688 – 1772) agreed with you.He claimed to have visited the afterlife worlds and found that everyone, believer or atheist, ended up where he would be happiest.Those who truly enjoyed angels and harp music found them. Those who really were most content in the middle of barfights found themselves thoroughly enjoying such brawls until they decided to move on.For those unfamiliar with Emanuel Swedenborg and who might dismiss him as a dreamer or a psychotic, consider:**He was an engineer and metallurgist with an international reputation and the chief inspector of the Swedish mines.**At a public meeting in Copenhagen, 200 miles from Stockholm, he gave the attendees a moment-by-moment, real-time, description of the great fire which was then engulfing Stockholm.**He predicted to several people the exact hour and day of his death, with which he seemed completely unconcerned.

  • Fate

    Brambleton wrote: “Fate, Could you tell me what religion or other belief system includes the resurrection of the body? Don’t bother because you won’t find it. The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the single, most unique hope.”In the Egyptian Book of the Dead, if your body is prepared properly and you lived a good life as the book describes, and Osiris judges you as good (just as one day you believe you will be judged), you will be resurrected and be given a good afterlife. Ancient Egyptians believed this would happen to them and had happened to previous pharoahs.And why is resurrection so important? Are you afraid of death? Why? You will be just where you were before you were born. Was that so bad? I can certainly understand why someone would want to stay alive. There is a lot to live for. But once dead, I cannot understand why someone would want to continue to exist in another form. Its always been a question my believer friends have a hard time answering. Just why do you want to continue to exist after you die? Or maybe you are more worried about avoiding hell. Got to hand it to the Christians giving you both an incentive to maintain your faith, and a disincentive to loose you faith. Clever. Now, can you please explain how a monotheistic religion can have a God, a God’s son and his human mother (and boyfriend Joseph), a “holy spirit”, many angels and many saints, all of which can be prayed to and can answer prayers? Which saint do you call your own? Mine was Francis of Assisi, the patron saint of animals. I prayed to him all the time assured he would answer my prayers, which usually had something to do with having the nuns not beat me the next day in school. I know, they were beating me to make sure my soul goes to heaven. I guess I should thank them…

  • Sheffer Clark

    On Mr. Carlin, A mere vegetable of society that sprang up at night and sank again in his noon.

  • Uncle Joe Stalin

    Tax the rich in the name of “fairness”.Redistribute wealth.Call for the destruction of all religion in the name of rational thought.Desecrate religious texts.Shout down anyone who disagrees and paint them as a radical.Never criticize a fellow comrade.I’m loving it.

  • Cletus

    When I was a kid in catechism class, I, like I suspect many kids did, wondered at some of the things about the lessons that did not seem to make any sense. Cain’s wife, Noah, etc. What really made me wonder was the description of heaven, which sounded a lot like a combination of an eternal church service and a family reunion (that is, with the family members who were not roasting on the eternal spit (i.e., the ones I liked)). As I got older, I eventually realized I did not believe any of it anymore. My extended family went the other direction. Looks like I’m the odd one out. Still, I’ll take that over church for an eternity.

  • lakeguy

    Religion has three elements: something to fear, something to hope for, and a lot of repetition. Carlin evidently understood this.

  • jhbyer

    Nothing discredits Christianity more than its insistence that belief is commanded and rewarded. If it’s so important, why does God leave it to chance? It’s obviously calculated by humans to secure your support.

  • Al

    I enjoyed George Carlin on occasion and wish him well wherever he may be. And I don’t know for sure but believe he would have some sympathy with the following notions.Heaven or Hell is forever determined by our state of consciousness. It’s not a place somewhere but an internal condition.That state is what follows us wherever we go.If you are in a self-created living hell here and now, that’s probably what you’ll experience after death.Seems many here are tormented by their minds, especially by the need to be right and other posters to be wrong.If this is the case, this will be your condition wherever you are, in this life or some other….though changing one’s inner condition is always an option.Maybe seeking peace of mind and tolerance now is truly a good thing.

  • paul c

    Mr. Mark:1) You think that the old testament called for a warrior messiah but you are greatly mislead as were the Jews of the time. They thought God cared about politics, when he really cared about salvation. Thus, the suffering servant of Isaiah and the psalms and the explanations of this in the NT. 2) You disregard anything written about Jesus as unverifiable, including scriptures. If you said the same thing about George Washington, you could convince yourself he never existed. Its fair for you to feel this way but it makes you a skeptic, not a bible scholar.3 you argue that I misread about the number of eyewitnesses to Jesus’ resurrection. How is it a clear extension that Paul Seeing Jesus as a vision meant that the other 500 could not have seen him in the flesh? Beyond saying you don’t believe anything that happened 2000 years ago, do you also have an answer for the modern day miracles that are documented in secular papers and have led to numerous conversions of atheists (Like Lourdes and Fatima)?All this put together is either a simple truth or a very elaborate hoax, propagated over 2000 years. I vote for the former, I’m sure you see it as the latter. We’ll never know if you are right because that would mean we would just stop existing after death. If I am right, we will both know…

  • surfbum

    To quote George Carlin, “Religion is bullsh1t.” I think that sums up very succinctly what I think about religion.So take your god, your bible, and your religion and stick it up your a$$!!! I don’t want to hear about your invisible man and what he supposedly told you today!Lastly, the I think bible is a crock of sh1t to!

  • perspective

    Norrie Hoyt – thanks for the snapshot of Swedenborg. A visionary on the order of William Blake, but also a man of many talents, and an all-around Swedish renaissance man on the order of a Da vinci as well – scientist, mathematician, inventor, artist and…. Lutheran minister. And not your ordinary minister by an stretch. You are correct in that he claimed to have made many journeys to the realm of the afterlife. These experiences appeared to be of the nature of visions. He documents these travels in great detail. His other religious works are voluminous. Quite an extraordinary man, by any standard.There are a number of websites dedicated to Swedenborg and his work, including details of his many visits to the afterworld.

  • lump516

    When I think of Carlin dying, I think of a wonderful bit that Steve Martin did on one of his albums, namely an atheist dying and finding himself at the pearly gates: “But in college, they said this was all bull****!”I suspect that Carlin will get in anyway. He was too funny, and, besides, God likes to have the last laugh . . .

  • perspective

    Norrie Hoyt – thanks for the snapshot of Swedenborg. A visionary on the order of William Blake, but also a man of many talents, and an all-around Swedish renaissance man on the order of a Da vinci as well – scientist, mathematician, inventor, artist and…. Lutheran minister. And not your ordinary minister by an stretch. You are correct in that he claimed to have made many journeys to the realm of the afterlife. These experiences appeared to be of the nature of visions. He documents these travels in great detail. His other religious works are voluminous. Quite an extraordinary man, by any standard.There are a number of websites dedicated to Swedenborg and his work, including details of his many visits to the afterworld.

  • paul c

    surfbum:

  • Cubby

    I had a good bit of respect for George Carlin and while I may not have agreed with all he said, I did particularly enjoy his skewing of religious authority as he understood a key and simple fact:No human being, past or present has ever spent more than a few minutes dead and come back to tell the tale. We simply cannot and will never know (despite how many folks are “sure’ they know) what happens until each of us stops living. Period….and no, I don’t count the Lazarus story, either. As a former Christian, I’ve often believed Lazarus was in a coma and mistaken as dead (a common problem until the advent of modern medicine). Christ, Prometheus, the Mayan Corn God and several others have been proclaimed raised from the dead yet proof is lacking beyond the adherents’ word–no offense to anyone but this is faith we’re talking vs concrete evidentiary fact.During my church days, I recall full well feeling so certain and sure I was going to some big place with mansions (for whatever reason since a body doesn’t need a home) and an endless buffet (another peculiarity since again, no bodily needs). Yet now, I am brave enough to admit I simply don’t know what is after this life–and in reality, anyone reading these words cannot prove what they believe, either, beyond quoting their scriptures or sacred texts.So far all we know, George’s Frisbeentarianism is correct and we’ll all end up flung upon someone’s roof, unrecoverable. Makes as much sense as a heaven with mansions, 72 slow eyed virgins awaiting, being ferried over the river Styx by Charon or whatever other after life beliefs are out there by the tens of thousands of religions human beings have developed over our history.

  • E Favorite

    Paul C – Please consider that “Atheist I am” is angry at religion, that does exist, and not at God – that does not exist – in his opinion, of course.Christian – I noticed that some of the reports on Carlin’s death didn’t use the word “atheist,” but did make a point of saying that he hated religion and that he relentlessly spoofed it. To me this is similar to news stories saying that Russert was a “man of faith” without saying he believed in God or specifically believed in the tenets of the Catholic church. I was actually looking for specifics on Russert’s Catholicism in news reports of his death and only got that he attended Mass every Saturday afternoon at Georgetown University Chapel and that he carried a wood-bead Rosary in his pocket. There was nothing about what he actually believed. His beliefs, whatever they were, were implied, through participating in the ritual of Mass, and carrying a rosary like a good luck charm. As for Luke 16 – remember, if you don’t believe in God, you’re not going to take the Bible seriously as anything but ancient stories and myths. Mr Mark – thanks for sorting out your thoughts and clarifying your writing. Finding the google link was easy – it was right at the top of the page.

  • surfbum

    Paul C:I really don’t like you bible thumping religious zealots. I think you are a bunch of deranged mental cases in serious need of psychiatric help. Religious fanaticism is a symptom of mental illness so I suggest you get help now! Finally, I despise you and people like you who claim to know god (what ever that is) and then try to shove your bible crap down everyone’s throat!So I say take your “god” however you want to define it and get f**ked!!!

  • Anonymous

    George’s legacy can be found in those who listened and emulated. A few have even shown up here- leaving a trail of vitriolic phlegm for all to see. Its NOT just anti-God: its anti-social, verbally aggressive, and steeped in HATRED..Thanks George for your contributions to the world you’ve left behind. Everytime I hear a kid spleening malicious wrath on the world-I’ll think of you.

  • Fate

    Cubby wrote: “So far all we know, George’s Frisbeentarianism is correct and we’ll all end up flung upon someone’s roof, unrecoverable. Makes as much sense as a heaven with mansions…”You should try reading the ancient Egyptian “Book Of The Dead” and learn what they expected to see after they died. A little more humble than most religions, but generally very similar:When my 7th grade daughter read this in school she said it sounded very silly. I then reminded her of what she was learning in church and sunday school, of God and heaven, hell, angels and life after death. She just sat silent. I did not know if she was questioning her religious upbringing or considering the Egyptians might have been right, or maybe it was all bunk. She’ll have to decide that when she gets older as George did. I like the idea of Frisbeentarianism though. The problem with it is that it is not based on reward and fear (carrot and stick), as all religions are, so there is nothing to hold the faithful to the faith. A religion destined for failure, but that does not mean it is incorrect. What most religious people forget is that faith is just that, faith, and they cannot prove their faith is true more than another, and so Frisbeentarianism is just as likely to be true as any other faith, it just won’t fill the coffers with those scared they might go someplace painful when they die, or those seeking paradise. George, if he was right, is sitting on a roof looking down on us all, laughing as he made us laugh. I’m sure he’s looking around at all the others stuck on the roof, and smiling.

  • Neal:

    paul c wrote:–”In the 2000 years since this occurred, there continue to be miracles as testimony to its truth, including the healings at Lourdes, the stigmata of Padre Pio, and the dancing of the sun at Fatima (all in the last 150 years). I’m sure that some will say that none of this is believable and will attempt to poke holes in it but to me its a pretty strong body of data that seems credible to me.”Why doesn’t god ever, ever, EVER heal amputees? Have you ever looked directly into the sun for more than a second or two? Every time I do, it does some pretty amazing things. By the way, if you’re interested, according to the Lourdes online gift shop catalog, Lourdes holy water goes for about $38,000 per barrel.

  • Fred W.

    You know what I love about the whole dying thing, Carlin, and God. When he gets before God I can just envision God saying “Oh Mr. funny man. The man with the jokes about me. Lets hear some of that quick wit now. Better yet I have another person I know you can entertain for the rest of the eternity in some of the worse heat you will ever experience. YOU ARE THE BIGGEST LOSER, BUH BYE.

  • Frank Zappa

    Well, Anonymous, talk about class. Glad to see that you’re putting a guy who just died in his place.

  • John

    George Carlin is dead. That’s it. That’s all there is.

  • ghostbuster

    Well, at least Surfbum is honest.I don’t particularly care for Eagles fans myself. They are the worst in the NFL. Unfortunately, I keep running into decent, friendly ones in real life which is a real problem for me. That’s why I hang out on sports boards though so I can hide behind a mask and stereotype them all day and night – even though I know that fans of my own team don’t behave much better.It’s like playing cards with my sister’s kids on this WP board.

  • rIck

    i’m pretty sure that George and You Know Who are sitting around talking about how you don’t get how good He made it for you. they’ll chuckle a lot.

  • fieldenstern

    i can almost hear his routine now(the clean version). afterlife? what kind of crazy idea is that. after only a few hours in my grave, the eggs the flies laid already are becoming maggots that will eat my body. some day down the road, except for my bones, there will be nothing but dust in my coffin. but that’s okay with me because i am dead and won’t be feeling a thing. i have been in that condition since i died. i ceased to exist. and that’s all right with me because i don’t have to listen to the twaddle about heaven or hell or that pergatory thing the catholics have never been able to explain. i am dead, dead, dead.

  • Amy

    Thomas — wise choice for me to dwell in a country where minority views are protected. You may not like it that I don’t share your views but your president can’t throw me into jail for it or deny me my voting rights. YAY for AMERICA!!!! Thomas if that really bugs you, you should try moving to some country where religious “law” prevails, like Iran or Saudi Arabia.Altar boy – tyvm!

  • Fate

    Anonymous wrote: “Thanks George for your contributions to the world you’ve left behind. Everytime I hear a kid spleening malicious wrath on the world-I’ll think of you.”Did you ever consider that, now and then, the world deserves a little malicious wrath spleened onto it? George helped us question many things. His humor was biting. Maybe it hit a little too close to home for you, but you should always accept any questioning of your beliefs, whatever they are, religious or social. Questions help keep you honest and prevents you from just accepting things you heard from a friend of a friend, as way too many of us do.I remember hearing a Roman Catholic cardinal on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson years ago. He accepted questions from the audience and fielded them very professionally, eventually winning over the audience with at least having won the arguments or explaining the faith to their satisfaction. Too bad we see little of that anymore, with shouting down your opponment the weapon of choice in the battle for ideas and beliefs these days. As we said in the 60s but seems to have been forgotten; ‘think for yourself and question authority’.

  • Amy

    I can see Fred in the afterlife now — for the hubris of thinking he has the “truth” and knows what happens to others after they die, he’s condemned to live the next 500 lifetimes as a cockroach.I love revenge fantasies. If I can’t bump someone off myself or make them suffer in this life, I can make up a deity or a fairy tale about afterlives and punish them in my mind. It’s so so so satisfying it must be right, right?

  • Billie Marie

    George, I know you can’t hear us cause your dead and I would never pretent to think you could hear our thoughts now, so this isn’t for you.Unfortunately you are not hearing this eulogy this time…I also know you would not have cared about any stupid comments made here as they are in charactor as always.You know George, now that you are dead you are in the ironic position of actually having a religion of your own…I don’t know about frisbees… I think that was just a ironic bit to you. I think of your appearance in Dogma and I think instead of a George Carlin with two thumbs up.Good bye George, thank you for all the laughs.

  • Amy

    Fate, you said “But once dead, I cannot understand why someone would want to continue to exist in another form. Its always been a question my believer friends have a hard time answering. Just why do you want to continue to exist after you die?”I wonder about that too. If comfort and hope are the criteria for deciding what’s true and what’s not, I find the idea of an immortal soul and “heaven” bloody boring and no comfort at all. No jazz musicians, no gay people (who does the decorating?), no dogs or animals of any kind (they have no souls), and I get to spend eternity with my grandmother, who has been watching over everything I’ve been doing since I was 13. There are some things grandmothers just shouldn’t see. If she’s been watching those things I don’t want to discuss them with her.Then there’s the amount of time. If you’re there for eternity what do you do? You can’t have sex, eat, or do anything physical. You can’t even tap your foot in impatience because you have no feet. In life I kill time by window shopping, taking long walks, admiring the sunsets and rainbows… can’t do any of that in heaven. Is eternity like waiting in line at the bank but worse? And for the first 50 years or so I have to keep an eye on the people I left behind on earth, which would get annoying. I’m not interested in watching my nephew get his first colonoscopy when he turns 40.I find the idea of the end being the end much more comforting.

  • Mr Mark

    Paul C writes:”All this put together is either a simple truth or a very elaborate hoax.”I strongly disagree with your assessment that the hoax of Xianity is at all elaborate.Quite the contrary, it employs the archetypical characters of many, many religions that predated it. It uses sticks and carrots to get people in and keep them from leaving. And, reason and truth are its greatest enemies. Nothing elaborate in that. It’s religion’s stock in trade.Your posts have an undercurrent of fear to them that is undeniable. Fear is a great motivator. John McCain is hoping to gain the WH this fall by running a campaign of fear, though his handler rather let the cat out of the bag yesterday.Final thought: my interpretation of the Bible is just as valid if not more valid than yours. In fact, my view of Jesus is much closer to that of the early Gnostic Xians who believed Jesus was a spirit and not a corporeal being. Paul believed the same thing, and Paul was the inventor of Xianity.In any case, the Jesus story is a myth. One misses the beauty of the story and its organic connection to other early religions when one attempts to move the story into the realm of reality. The Jesus story only makes sense if it viewed as an allegory, not as an actual historical life.Keep searching. Someday you’ll see what I’m talking about.

  • Mr Mark

    Paul C writes:”You disregard anything written about Jesus as unverifiable, including scriptures. If you said the same thing about George Washington, you could convince yourself he never existed. Its fair for you to feel this way but it makes you a skeptic, not a bible scholar.”Paul, this is one of the lamest of all arguments you Xians trollop out as a diversionary tactic. It doesn’t work.How do we know George Washington existed?We have his bones sitting in his tomb.I could go on and one, but the point is:NONE OF THIS REAL EVIDENCE EXISTS FOR JESUS.And, we as an intelligent people have abandoned the fictions we once held about Washington, like his chopping down a cherry tree. With jesus, we have nothing EXCEPT stories of him chopping down cherry trees.There’s a huge difference between the truth that Washington existed and the fiction that Jesus existed. This you can’t deny…but you will.

  • surfbum

    Wrong answer anonymous. I arrived at my opinions about religion, religious leaders, and god independent of George Carlin. We just happen to see eye to eye on this one.I just get sick and tired of idiots like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and people like you constantly spouting off about the jesus and god crapola.”I talked to god and god said this and that”, “I found jesus”, “the bible says this”, “god this and god that.” Give it a break, man!!! Why can’t you keep that sh1t to yourselves and give the rest of us break! I am REALLY sick and tired of hearing this sh1t!Thanks to you brain washed bible thumping crackpots we ended up with a f**king moron in the WH that has so totally f**ked up this country and got us in a war we can’t figure out how to get out of!

  • Arminius

    Amy,Well, this is how one somewhat unconventional believer regards heaven. Gotta be big, slobbery dogs, purring cats, butterflies, bluebirds, eagles. Friendly wolves, bears that you can walk up to and scratch their ears. Guinness. Conversation. Meeting Socrates, Gandhi, St Patrick…. I hope….But, I tell ya what. If I get there, I will say this to God: “Lord, this is really great, but I won’t do you much good here. Please send me back to Earth – there’s still much work to be done!”

  • Reasonable not hateful

    I would agree that the rich should be taxed more. The question is how much more. You don’t want to tax those that are rich, but employ the middle class with their wealth- who reinvest into the economy. Also, it is a controversy within Christian circles whether the govt is the vehicle to help the poor and impoverished. I believe it should to a degree, but the welfare reform of the 90′s was spot on.As far as waterboarding goes, I find that to be okay. It is not going to kill the terrorist, and will lead to information we can’t get otherwise.Of course the rich should be taxed more, just like, IMO, the govt should spend less than it does.Our govt is out of control, and both sides- dems and pubs, have made it that way.

  • Reasonable not hateful

    Mr Mark-Just to chime in, I have noticed, and this has been for some time(15 years) that many atheists like yourself deny the man’s existence. It seems to me that its just a excuse to deny or confront what the man had to say. This way, you don’t have to think outside your predetermined box that God does not exist. The gospels what many or most people would say is very intelligent observations about mankind. How anyone could simply make this stuff up is beyond me.Paul C is correct- this is either a elaborate hoax, or there is really something to this Jesus fellow.It’s sad you have convinced yourself it is some kind of hoax, or made up story that can’t be true.Your so -called intellect is your worst enemy.

  • Ian

    As someone who does not believe there is anything after we die it bugs me that all those who disagree with me will never know they are wrong!!!

  • Anonymous

    OK surfbum- take a deep breath and try to settle yourself..You directly quoted George in your posts. You remembered what he said and repeat it. His words have influenced you.You say-”and people like you constantly spouting off about the jesus and god crapola.”Please give things a reality test before you post. You’re the one “spouting off” and projecting your ravings onto me. I’ve never mentioned Jesus or God in my posts. You’ve been narrow minded and judgmental- the thing you dislike in others.

  • paul c

    surfbum:

  • Brambleton

    Surfbum,Your level of hostility and anger leads me to believe that there are other forces at work here. But that is for another time, another day.Perhaps a good starting point would be to lose the stereotyping. You are doing yourself a tremendous disservice by assuming all Christians act and think like the leaders you’ve mentioned. Am I to assume that most women leaders are liars and crooks because of the actions of Hillary Clinton?Second, while the sharing of the Gospel may seem offensive to you, I would ask that you take a moment to reflect outside yourself and ask how many people that very act has saved? How many people have had their lives changed in ways they could never possibly imagine, all because someone was willing to spend the time and effort to let them know about Jesus.And while I too would disagree with President Bush on a number of his policies, the most important point remains. There is only one solution to evil. Enlightenment has given the world no answers, none, to any of the evil or violent acts that fester in our society. No matter what Obama or McCain might tell you, there is no roadmap to utopia. To believe so would be to believe in a great myth indeed.Not a sermon, just a thought.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear E Fav -Thanks for locating that CNN header about George Carlin being “killed.” Maybe Mike will now “recant” his attacks on me.That said, going back through my original post, I can see how some people may have thought that I was saying that the CNN.com article that bore the headline “Heart Failure Kills Comedian George Carlin” also went on about Carlin being an atheist. It didn’t, and I didn’t mean to imply that it did. Here’s what I originally wrote:”Last week, the media fell over themselves eulogizing one of there own, Tim Russert. Tim, we were told, was deeply religious and a practicing Catholic. We were told that Tim “died” of a heart attack.”Today, the headline on CNN.com reads: “Heart Failure Kills Comedian George Carlin.” The media is busy informing us that George was an atheist. We’re told that George was “killed” by heart failure.”My writing was unclear here. I had heard and read on media outside of CNN that Carlin was an atheist. My first paragraph which references the media and Tim Russert used the term media in the general sense. That was the sense that I intended to carry forward in my sentence, “The media is busy informing us that George was an atheist.” Sandwiching that statement – which was based on media reports outside of the CNN.com article – between two sentences that directly referenced CNN was unfortunate and placed an onus on CNN that I did not specifically intend nor that CNN merited. So, I owe Mike and CNN an apology for a mangled piece of composition that was entirely my doing.And, I should probably credit CNN for going back and replacing the offensive “killed” headline with their “Carlin died” version. At least they had the decency to do that. I found the headline offensive, and I’m happy that someone at CNN probably felt the same thing.

  • Freestinker

    Anonymous,Satire is effective in this regard and the truth hurts, don’t it? At least he was one funny-ass SOB! – A Lifelong Frisbeetarian.

  • FH

    “Is that why you come quote judgmental Bible verses at the insufficiently-pious dead?”Not really sure how the verse I quoted was judgemental…but we all see what we want to…eh.Work for a livin…ex-military??? Same here. PAGANPLACE…in all seriousness, I wish you well. I thought George was amazingly funny…Bill and Ted’s Adv., was just the best. I hope your search for truth leads you to the answers you seek. That’s all any of us can do., good luck to you.

  • jmartincook

    If you think about it, ‘heaven’ is unfolding all around us already, and has been since at least the Enlightenment. Most of us live lives that the ancient prophets would have considered ‘heavenly’. Most of us live in ‘mansions’ compared to ancient times. We travel around in ‘wheels within wheels’ (automobiles) or fly around in ‘chariots of fire’ (airplanes) and are ‘surrounded by eyes’ (cameras and other sensors), etcetera, etcetera (cf: Ezekial). Given that humans are innately imitative beings (as, perhaps, all life is) — and that the imitation of christ-like behavior (not faux-christian behavior) has gradually spread world-wide because of its proven ultimate truth and superiority — And given that I can imagine being a slightly (or more) different version of ‘myself’ if my parents had simply married/conceived with different mates –What does it really mean to say that we ‘live’ or ‘die’? I think ‘we’ live forever to the degree that we are in imitation of christ.

  • spiderman2

    There are super computers that simulate the whether. But how accurate it is depends on the accuracy of the equations formed.With natural selection, I haven’t heard of a single computer simulating gorillas turning to humans. If ever there is a set of equations that Fate is talking about, it’s as real as the equation that I just made. It’s all baloney. Even the computers would crash if they try to crunch them.

  • Fate

    Rebecca Thompson wrote: “Fate, you got it all wrong. God doesn’t put people in Hell. Hell is a place void of God. People put themselves there, by choice. The fear is your own. Don’t put the blame you feel for your own actions on God and say it’s His fault you fear.”Well Rebecca who made hell and who decides whether you go to hell. You don’t get to decide do you? If you dented a car in the parking lot and did not leave a note, who gets to decide that you go to heaven or hell with that in your past? You? hahahahahaha. Do you get to worry for the rest of your life what God will think about every little indescretion you made in your life. I’m not saying you should not self reflect on these indescritions, just that you are leaving it up to someone else to judge you, and you seem to know how you will be judged. Rebecca Thompson wrote: “You fear things you don’t understand. And you sound very afraid even now.”Really? And where did you get that gem of knowlege?Rebecca Thompson wrote: “People who have died and returned from the dead, clinically dead!, aren’t afraid to die ever again. They’ve been there. Yes, even the Atheists now know. Go read what they have to say before you demand what the truth really is.”Clinically dead? Meaning they were what, in a bed hooked up to life saving devices with monitors showing conditions similar to death, like a stopped heart for a short time? Or are you talking about someone buried weeks ago? My guess is you cannot come up with an example of the later.Rebecca Thompson wrote: “You might want to think about what it is and why it is, you’re trying so desperately to convince others of a Godless world. If there’s nothing to believe in, you have absolutely no reason to be concerned about what they believe.”Except when people tell me that if I do not get religion I’m going to burn in hell forever. What if someone came to you and said that if you did not give them 10% of your salary per year you would burn in hell forever. Would you call a cop saying you were bring extorted? No, you would go to church and pay up at the offering. So don’t be too upset when I respond as if I feel I and my family are constantly being harassed and extorted by those who make claims about my existance after death, and their solution for a price. Rebecca Thompson wrote: “Your explanations give no explanation to the signs made to this world. Go look up “Incorruptable Saints” and explain that one too while you’re at it. There’s much you do not know.”Are you saying that Lenin is an Incorruptable Saint? His body is very well preserved. How about King Tut? A true christian? Rebecca, you obviously look for miracles to back up your faith and seem to find them everywhere. Do you see the Madonna in algea on the walls of highway tunnels too?

  • Fate

    spiderman2 wrote: “There are super computers that simulate the whether. But how accurate it is depends on the accuracy of the equations formed.”But there are equations that accurately simulate the weather. spiderman2 wrote: “With natural selection, I haven’t heard of a single computer simulating gorillas turning to humans.”There are many computer similation programs for the evolutionary process. The problem with gorillas to humans (BTW, humans did not evolve from gorillas, we just have a common ancestor) is that the evolutionary process can take many turns depending on the conditions, which vary over time. spiderman2 wrote: “If ever there is a set of equations that Fate is talking about, it’s as real as the equation that I just made. It’s all baloney. Even the computers would crash if they try to crunch them.”So its all baloney? You ask for equations, I give you some, you ignore them and say they are baloney? Just how many people do you expect to influence in life by arguing that things do not exist, then when shown they do exist say that they are baloney? Tell me oh wise spiderman2, why are there kangaroos in Australia? Didn’t the earth flood, killing all animals? If the kangaroos somehow got onto the ark, and the ark landed at Mt. Ararat, how did the kangaroos get to Australia?

  • Brambleton

    Fate,While the Bible is nondescript in regards to Heaven and Hell, it certainly is not on “how” we get there. God does not have an adding machine in which he adds or subtracts from your total, depending upon your works or deeds.(I will add that Heaven clearly is not a place in the sky where the chosen play harps and sing songs for eternity).It is clear that the gateway to Heaven is through a relationship with Christ. Denting someone’s car and skipping town won’t remove you from Heaven. We are all sinners. But my personal belief, is that with every sin we commit, a little piece of God that is within us is taken away. With every sin that we knowlingly commit, we draw farther away from the one who made us in His reflection.

  • paul c

    Neal:In Fatima, 70,000 people witnessed the miracle of the Sun on October 13, 1917. It was widely reported in the secular press and resulted in many conversions. Not only did the 70,000 witness the sun dancing but they were also completedly dried out after a drenching rain storm. In addition, there were a set of prophesies concerning Russia that appear to have been fulfilled. this is all well documented on the web.In Lourdes, 14 year old Bernadette Soubirous saw 18 visions of the Virgin Mary starting on February 11, 1858. As these unfolded, the crowds grew into the thousands despite active opposition from the church and the government. In the midst of this, Bernadette was told to ask the “Lady” for a miraculous blooming of roses in February to demonstrate the reality of the visions. This did not happen. Instead, a spring started from a point where Bernadette was asked to dig. The healing powers of this spring are very well documented. I don’t know whether anyone has ever grown back a limb but I have read of a woman who’s nose and facial features had been severely disfigured by disease, who was fully cured (with I believe before and after documentation.) In addition, like all true visionaries, during the apparition, Bernadette was completely oblivious to her surroundings. During one of the visitations, she had moved a candle she was holding in a way that the flame was directly on her other hand for over en minutes without burning her, much to the amazement of an unbelieving doctor who was present. Once the apparition was over, he tested her by forcing the flame once again onto her hand, which subsequently burned her. Keep in mind that while these events were unfolding, the Church was among those pushing back on the visionaries the hardest because it knew that false miracles would do the faith tremendous harm. It was only after very detailed evaluations over many years that the Church gave its sanction to the faithful.There’s of course far more to these modern miracles than I’ve enumerated in this short post. these are readily accessible on the web. These are cases where the existence of God and the sanctity of the Roman Catholic Church are proven with all the modern evidence sources: Interviews , pictures, secular newspaper accounts, detailed scientific and medical investigations,etc.

  • Harold Lee Mathews

    If God created man then could someone answer this query? Who created God? Could it be: God number two? And, did God number 3 create God number 2? Can anyone say: Eternal enumeration?

  • Harold Lee Mathews

    If God created man then could someone answer this query? Who created God? Could it be: God number two? And, did God number 3 create God number 2? Can anyone say: Eternal enumeration?

  • E Favorite

    Paul C – right – the info about Lourdes is readily available on the web – and you can find just about anything you want there, but you won’t find any legitimate evidence of miracle cures. Sure – lots of people go to Lourdes to take the waters, but nothing much happens. If it did, you can be SURE we’d hear about it in the mainstream media, not to mention in the official Vatican news outlets.Regarding Fatima, funny how the sun didn’t dance just a few miles down the road (not to mention all over the world) but just in that one spot where people were staring into it.Funny too that these miracles seem to happen way out in the country among peasants and the religiously devout. Let’s see Mary appear to the lunch crowd in Manhattan and I’ll take another look.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear E Fav -I’m afraid Paul C is one of the grasping-at-straws type of Xians, the kind who readily discount settled science that is backed up by decades of impartial research while embracing hearsay of the most-fantastic kind from heavily biased, anonymous sources.The “miracles” he describes are easily explained as cases of mass hysteria that are the product of the mob mentality, and in these specific instances, we’re dealing with mobs that were not only predisposed to witness a “miracle” but hoping and praying for the same. Watch any of the “win a million dollars” game shows on TV and you see the same type of behavior, with contestants and even audience members closing their eyes, clenching their fists and whispering entreaties to who knows who in hopes that they can somehow influence the absolutely random act of picking the “right” suitcase. Invariably, the contestant who wins big on such shows says something along the lines of, “I never stopped believing I could do it!”, or, “Thank God…I won!” Of course, the truth is that they just got lucky. Their choices being the right choices were pure happenstance. It’s frightening to realize that many if not most 21st century humans still put stock in such delusions.

  • tony the pitiful copywriter

    My one regret in raising my kids is that I didn’t send them to the same Catholic Church I grew up in.Catholicism can inoculate you against outrageous claims, as it did Carlin. How many cultists were former Catholics? I would bet good money on not many.Keep the edgy posts coming–don’t just wait for someone like George Carlin to pass away.Knowing what we know of the physical world, can anyone tell me where we would put the non-physical world? For how long? Scientists tell us this universe may last only a few more billion years. Sorry, I’m just having a hard time imagining where heaven -or hell- might be. I think it’s here. Now.

  • Spectator

    I always valued Carlin’s insights on the English language. In this area he was a rationalist with the same conerns as our founding fathers.The relationship of language to religion should be explored.

  • Tim

    Rest in peace on the roof George…right next to the wife-frisbee. I’m sure if you could…you’d probably take a big ole dump on this blog…and throw a fart in the end…just for effect!

  • Paganplace

    Spidey:” spiderman2:”Just a single equation. Can I have one please?”Maybe if you work for it. “NOT A SINGLE EQUATION BECAUSE IT DOES NOT EXIST.”Well, maybe you understand the hardline atheists’ point of view a little better, now.

  • Kurt

    He will be with Ben and Matt and Alanis and Silent Bob where ever they are for starting in the movie “Dogma” Genius total genius of a movie

  • Kurt

    He will be with Ben and Matt and Alanis and Silent Bob where ever they are for starting in the movie “Dogma” Genius total genius of a movie

  • Demos

    “I certainly get tired of hearing how belief is truth. Why not just say black is white. Belief and truth are antithetical. They cannot be one in the same. Once a belief is proved, say through science, it stops being a belief. But faith is belief, not truth, and I am tired of hearing how faith is truth based solely on words.”I’m tired of hearing how there’s an absolute binary dichotomy between belief (faith) and truth. You tell me that there’s more math than I might imagine behind modern evolutionary theory. I believe you. The Biblical understanding of faith is more closely related to the second sentence than the first – it’s a matter of who or what you put your faith and confidence in. Based on what I know about you (and, as in this case, don’t know about you), I decide whether to trust you. We make these decisions all the time.Faith doesn’t mean that I have no interest in the evidence I have regarding your intelligence, good will and intentions – it means that I think I’ve seen enough to make a decision, and I’ve decided to trust what you say. It doesn’t mean that I’ve closed my eyes – your very next post may “shake my faith” and convince me that you’re an untrustworthy scoundrel (hypothetically speaking, of course).Believers have evaluated the evidence differently than non-believers; otherwise they wouldn’t come to different conclusions. But coming down on side ‘A’ rather than side ‘B’ doesn’t make one group more interested in truth than the other.

  • VICTORIA

    well this has been a more than average interesting thread- brambleton- no magic wands? can you say outsourcing? have atheists somehow defeated fear? fear has a very real purpose and function- even from an evolutionary perspective- so whats the deal with that? but no one has- we all fear- but since this is (ostensibly) all about george- even though i dont drink i will raise my cyber guinness (with arminius) with a hale and hearty “CEAD MILLE FAITE!” to george!

  • Paganplace

    Goddess, though, that really *was* genius, Kurt, particularly the Alanis bit… Everyone expecting a dying old man after some bloody battle, and they get the (mostly) Maiden. Also more, to a Pagan mind. But anyone who says Gods don’t smile or laugh, (or know wonder, even if they’re supposed to be sitting in judgment, even if they got some kind of grim and sober image, well, I wouldn’t trust em. Kids grow up in this society and others, and as much as is ascribe to the omni-competence of ‘God,’ it often seems the only thing they can’t imagine is ‘God’ laughing *with* us, instead of *at* us, if ‘He’ laughs at all. Funny, that.

  • Corbett

    Carlin would certainly be smiling today; finding fodder for new material in all the assinine thin-skinned comments presented here by the followers of dogmatic nonsense.

  • Fate

    Demos wrote: “Believers have evaluated the evidence differently than non-believers; otherwise they wouldn’t come to different conclusions. But coming down on side ‘A’ rather than side ‘B’ doesn’t make one group more interested in truth than the other.”I agree believers evaluate the evidence differently but I would point out that you cannot pick and choose your evidence and call the result truth. This is what believers do. Atheists, being outside the belief, point to the glaring inconsistencies and impossibilities of the bible and are waved off, as though what is actually written in one part of the bible is of no consequence while another part is the “word of God”.There are those who believe the bible is the word of God yet cannot explain why there are animals in Australia, since the flood killed all living things according to the bible and the world was repopulated from the ark in Asia. But this is just dismissed with hand waving that God somehow put them there after the flood, but this is just made up and accepted by believers.If you listen to an atheist and a believer argue, the atheist always wins the argument on the inaccuracy of the bible and why some parts contradict others. But what I find more interesting is that when they discuss justice, society and charity, they are usually in complete agreement. To me this means that once you remove the delusion, believers are just like atheists. Deep down people are good. They want to participate constructively in society. They want to make society safe and comfortable. They want to help those in need. I find this is just human nature, but a believer will tell you that without belief these instincts do not exist. Yet fewer atheists are in prison than believers. Another fact of life the believers ignore to come down on side B.Really, atheists have no problem with believers until the believers start telling them, and their kids, they are going to hell. I mean really, when did Jesus go around pointing fingers at those going to hell? That is what is just as frustrating, that some believers do not even follow their own beliefs and use their belief to feel superior. I feel sad for them but I can also understand the annoyance. If you have ever been through an airport in the 70s or 80s and been accosted by a moonie, you know what atheists must be going through every day. If you ever laughed at a Hindu praying to an elephant, you know what an atheist sees when you look up to the sky and pray, except the atheist will not laugh but understand both are actions seeking comfort. You see, once you live in the real world, and are free from the delusion of Gods, angels and miracles, a lot about life is pretty clear and easier to accept and deal with.

  • Mr Mark

    Fate asks:”when did Jesus go around pointing fingers at those going to hell?”Actually, as Christopher Hitchens has observed, the idea of eternal hellfire isn’t to be found in the OT, especially for non-believers. In the OT, once god had the Jews enact genocide, the vanquished were dead, dead, dead. Existence was over for them. Period.But, as Hitchens’ turns the phrase, “it took the arrival of Gentle Jesus, meek and mild” to advance the idea of eternal suffering for non-believers. See Matthew 5:22, for example. The Gospel of Luke is fairly teeming with examples of hellfire, with Jesus as the one casting people into it.Jesus talks about hell a lot, pointing his you’re-going-to-hell finger at anyone and everyone who disagrees with him.

  • VICTORIA

    thanks for the honest answer paganplace- both share a foolish lack of both common sense and fear- both, to me- are extremely arrogant and obnoxious positions- peace

  • FH

    Fate: FH wrote: “I don’t think naturalism or creationism are going to be proved in our lifetime, so I’m going to go with the one that provides me comfort and hope.” “Well, naturalism has been proved many times and in many ways. And the results have been backed up yet again with recent DNA mappings of other species. The amount of evidence for naturalism is volumous and the inconsistencies are few. You cannot say that about creationism and you cannot find creationist papers offering anything in the way of proofs FOR creationism, which indicates it is not science.” The Big Bang ended pure naturalism as an option Fate. Not enough time; earliest life is too complex, and appeared too early in earth’s history; mutations are simply not efficient enough to account for the diverse life on earth. That leads me to a causal agent…it matters not to me whether through “natural selection” or direct intervention. We can argue back-and-forth about those details, but neither of us is going to change the others mind. But Fate, the void is calling, your finite time here is coming to an end…go live your life and stop wasting it debating a bunch of ignoramuses.

  • Xtina

    People MUST be able to separate their spirituality from the church. Churches for years have had their own agendas, like how Pope What’s His Name talked Charlemagne into invading Ireland, and how in the OT the Hebrews changed the Word as the need arose, eventually molding the texts that comprise the OT into one that would influence the people into solidarity (Robert Graves/Raphael Patai “Hebrew Myths” – read it! It’s awesome). Introducing worship of Jesus – they had to make him into a Sun King to make him palatable to people in western Europe. This stuff has been melded and glossed for years and changed as the need arose to lead people into where the ruling class wanted them to go!I believe in God and Spirit, and I believe in treating people as well as I would like to be treated, but I don’t let dogma get in the way! I think that was what Carlin was calling, and I love him for it. He was one of the first people that made me think about this when I was a wee bairnette.

  • paul c

    Mr. mark, E Fav, Friendobill,

  • Arminius

    Hi, Victoria,You are correct – both extreme sides of the debate, the Dobsons and the most vocal of non-believers, are arrogant. Compassion is unknown to them, their only driving force is pushing their particular agenda. And it is the middle group, you, I, others, that are in the crossfire. Makes for an interesting life sometimes.Anyway, the idea that Christians have an instant and automatic ‘golden ticket’ to heaven is not true. Sadly, this view is held by too many so-called Christians. But there is no guarantee. One must repent of one’s sins – that means a ‘turning away’ from your transgressions and reforming your life. And sticking to it! Arminius

  • David H.

    Fate, I also studied what Rebecca has noted about incorruptible saints and that’s not what she meant, nor said.You cannot compare Lenin or King Tut to those unexplained corpses because Lenin and Tut were preserved by articial means. Those saints were not preserved whatsoever. Yet those remain intact and quite looking like the day they died, despite the fact that many of the relics today are hundreds of years old.You would do well to take the time to understand the phenomenon of the subject, rather than toss scoffing insults.I find it hard to believe you’re being so harrassed as you claim by believers of a faith you want nothing to do with. No one forced you to read here or get yourself into arguments elsewhere. Just a thought.

  • Fossiedog

    The CFDBD (i.e., Church of the Ferrel Dog Blood Drinkers) is often overlooked in these discussions about the afterlife and god. WP, please dedicate a piece for us the next time you publish.

  • Fate

    FH wrote: “The Big Bang ended pure naturalism as an option Fate. Not enough time; earliest life is too complex, and appeared too early in earth’s history; mutations are simply not efficient enough to account for the diverse life on earth.”Not sure what you mean. Lets take these one at a time:-How to *you* know the earliest life was complex, or are you assuming it was like bacteria today, which had 4 billion years to evolve more complexity than they had at the beginning?-The first evidence of life is about 500 million years after the earth formed. Too early?-You statement about mutations is not backed up with anything. Do you have a source for this information? Mutations happen all the time and can lead to changes, but what really drives speciation is separation of a species geographically leading to a change in their natural variation. For example, wolly mammoths in the north with long hair and fat, elephants at the equator with little hair or fat. FH wrote: “That leads me to a causal agent…it matters not to me whether through “natural selection” or direct intervention. We can argue back-and-forth about those details, but neither of us is going to change the others mind.”Just so you don’t get blindsided, scientists only started working on creating life in a test tube a decade ago and are getting close to showing much that I doubt you even thought possible. DNA, RNA, amino acids, fatty acids, all created in the lab from the constitutents of the early earth. They even got the fatty acids to form closed cells that have a lipid bi-layer, which each of your cells has. Much has been done in a short time. One wonders how the various churches will react when scientists can successfully create a primitive self-replicating life in the lab. I guess they will only have the origin of the universe to point to as “proof” of God’s existance, but scientists are closing in on that mystery also. Like hw the sun could shine for so long, these proofs of God’s existance just keep getting knocked down by science. FH wrote: “But Fate, the void is calling, your finite time here is coming to an end…go live your life and stop wasting it debating a bunch of ignoramuses.”Exposing people’s twisted thinking might help them see a little of the reality they ignore. Things have gotten to the point where our foreign policy depends on maintaining the state of Israel since it is required for the apocolypse to occur. It is not just harmless religious belief, it affects a lot more and needs to be stood up to. We hear the religious talk about 911 being retribution for America’s sins, or Katrina for New Orleans gay parade, or China’s earthquake due to its treatment of Tibet. The insanity must stop. The delusion is the problem and so, sorry, the debate must continue.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Paul C -I can only speak for myself, but I DID address your post. You just didn’t like the answer I provided.I am not condescending towards your views, but I will not allow you a special carve out in your truth claims that I would not grant to anything else. “Because I said so” and its companions in fantasy, “I believe” and “Because the Bible said so” cut no slack with me, nor do their whole-cloth pronouncements substituted as proof to cold hard facts.You seem to believe that religious beliefs get some kind of a special dispensation. Why? Because a high percentage of people believe the same delusion? I don’t think so (see: Colin Powell/UN Speech/WMD Lies/bush water carrier/90% of Americans believed the lies). But it’s even worse than that, because you don’t provide such a carve out to religions besides your own. Are you willing to say that Hindus and Muslims have a truth claim that is just as valid as is yours? How about the followers of Zeus? Is their truth claim just as truthful as that of the Xians? If not, then how can you possibly expect anyone to give your Xianity such a benefit of the doubt?Your posts indicate that you’re quite new to dialoguing with non-believers. That’s good, stick around. However, you’ll find that your easily knocked-down arguments have a short shelf life on this blog, and the expected whining about how mean the atheists have been to you after your arguments have been knocked down has an even shorter shelf life.In closing, let me say that I respect your right to your beliefs and your right to express them. It’s the beliefs themselves that are unworthy of respect, just as the belief that the Earth is flat is no longer worthy of respect.

  • Paganplace

    “both, to me- are extremely arrogant and obnoxious positions-”no room for humility or strong awareness of the now for either-”(i’m a muslim and we freely admit that we don’t know if weve got the golden ticket or not- we go on the premise that it is likely we do not)”I think it’s a false humility to claim either utter mastery or helplessness in the face of the ocean…It’s hubris to claim it’s impossible or needless to learn to swim.

  • Athena

    One of my favorite Carlin rants here:”I’d like to talk about some things that bring us together, things that point out our similarities instead of our differences, because that’s all you ever hear about in this country, is our differences. That’s all the media and the politicians are ever talking about, the things that separate us, things that make us different from one another. That’s the way the ruling class operates in any society. They try to divide the rest of the people. They keep the lower and the middle classes fighting with each other, so that they, the rich, can run off with all the [bleep] money. Fairly simple thing, happens to work. You know, anything different, that’s what they’re going to talk about. Race, religion, ethnic and national background, jobs, income, education, social status, sexuality. Anything you can do, keep us fighting with each other, so that they can keep going to the bank.You know how I describe the economic and social classes in this country? The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there just to scare the [bleep] out of the middle class. Keep them showing up at those jobs.”

  • spiderman2

    Unless George Carlin repented before he died, he is DOOMED to Hell. I don’t want him to go to hell despite his unbelief, but that is simply the FACT of life.Eintein’s work on his Theory of Special Relativity was just a list of mathematical formulas and based on those formulas, one can deduce that a powerful bomb CAN be made. No such bomb yet existed before he made those formulas but it served as THE CRYSTAL BALL of things to happen.Based on those formulas, THOSE WHO UNDERSTOOD IT CAN SEE THE FUTURE. The future is that a very powerful bomb will soon exist. And as we all know now, the Atomic Bomb now exist.The same can be said of the Bible. A big part of the Bible are told in FIGURES OF SPEECH — metaphors, parables and personifications. Much of these figures of speech are never understood by lots of people including FALSE RELIGIONS like Catholicism, liberal Protestantism, Judaism, etc. Those who understood Einstein’s Formula CANNOT DENY that a very dreadful powerful bomb CAN be made. They would be like fools if they say otherwise. They may NOT want it to exist but the formula says it all. I may not want Hell to exist but the “UNINTELLIGLE book” to many, but a very WISE book to those who can follow its “MAZE” says it does exist. One can opt to burn those Einstein Formulas or burn the HOLY BOOK, but it won’t disannul what is written in those documents.How did the Book knew that it’s possible to burn very large concrete metropolis in just ONE HOUR as if it knew beforehand the existence of Eintein’s Formulas? How did it knew of the powerful countries it depicted like the U.S, China, Russia, etc when these countries or some of these countries never existed before?The same book spoke of Hell. It may not sound “RATIONAL” as to why Hell exists just as it sounds irrational to think how a small mass or matter can obliterate whole cities, but it’s there. IT’S THERE DESPITE THE “IRRATIONALITY”.CAN’T YOU HEAR ME?? IT’S THERE AND SOON MANY WILL EXPERIENCE IT’S TRUE WRATH JUST AS THE JAPANESE EXPERIENCE EINSTEIN’S FORMULA. Their ignorance did not save them from annihilation. Thinking that Hell don’t exist won’t save you either from it’s wrath.CAN’T YOU SEE IT ?? DESPITE HE’S BEING THE CREATOR OF THIS UNIVERSE, HE LET HIMSELF HANG ON THE CROSS JUST TO WARN THE PEOPLE OF THE COMING WRATH. Read the book of Revelation as I did. Read it again and again as I did. It’s like a crystal ball. By the grace of God , He’ll show it to you what is the future of mankind.Unless George Carlin repented before he died, he is DOOMED to Hell. I don’t want him to go to hell despite his unbelief, but that is simply the FACT of life. A very sad fact of life. “Seek and Ye shall Find”. I seek and I found. If that verse is true to me, it can be true to all. For years, I seek. Get ready for a long search, if it comes to that.

  • Ricardo

    anyone who takes the hell or heaven concept seriously is truly an idiot

  • VICTORIA

    good one paganplace- i had to read it like 3 times to get it- mr mark- you’re generally a pretty cool cucumber in here- with alot of interesting connections and points- why do atheists have such a disdain for the right brained types that focus so much time, energy, dedication and persistance in our prayer life? the hardest work of any kind i have ever done is meditating- and i have had results that are only measurable to my own psyche- but results they are- who knows that one day there may be a melding of science and spirituality- maybe elctromagnetic maybe who knows- doesnt it require an exploration into said processes to dismiss them out of hand? its like that stupid love guru thread, i kept asking how people could have an opinion about the movie if they havent seen it? how can non-believers state with such certainty about the mentality of believers when they havent explored that particular branch of humanity? now- im addressing you- but speaking to atheists in general here- but, it is a thought- i think-

  • anon

    So this is what journalism at a major American newspaper has come to. Pathetic.

  • Jihadist

    Spectator: ” The relationship of language to religion should be explored.”Great idea. “Truth”, “salvation” etc means different things to different faiths. As for language used in On Faith blogs on religion….Mr. George Carlin came up with seven words to never use on TV. Those words are now so overused in Hollywood movies and WaPo blogs (in astericks, but we know what a poster meant) that those seven little words are so cliche, boring and limiting. It is the inventive invectives, creative put-downs and descriptions in On Faith threads, including “gutter slugs”, “spiritual airheads”, “spiritual dilenttantes” that are more interesting to be explored as language used by posters on other posters in discussing matters related to religion.Cheers

  • Blue44

    Harold Lee Mathews said: “If God created man then could someone answer this query? Who created God? Could it be: God number two? And, did God number 3 create God number 2? Can anyone say: Eternal enumeration?”Silly. No one did. Of necessity there has to be an uncreated creator, or Aristotle’s unmoved mover, who always was and always will be. Who is entirely self-sufficient, absolutely unconstrained by time and space. A Being so far and away beyond our comprehension (other than to know that this “Supreme Being” exists) that we can’t begin to imagine what this Being is like. Trying to understand such a One is like trying to pour the ocean into a little hole in the sand. (I stole that .) Reason can and does give us some idea of the Being’s attributes, but in the end reason raises more questions than it answers. So, enjoy the ride, and prepare to meet your Maker (or don’t and risk the consequences–cf, Pascal). George has now done that, having proven that this Being must have a wicked sense of humor. Oddly, this Being made us with a free will, but no way for us to choose whether we would ultimately come face-to-face with such an unknowable Presence.George has now met this unknowable Being, which perhaps proves that this Being must have a (New England style) wicked sense of humor. MYRIP, George. Perhaps you knew all along that your role was to loosen things up a bit, and you used your unique talent to do it better than anyone else ever did.

  • VICTORIA

    dont atheists ever wonder why millions and millions and billions of people have prayed? isnt it one sided to ignore such a tremendous aspect of our natures? i didnt see your post paganplace and had to laugh at myself for my own (carl sagan voicover)milions and billions

  • Anonymous

    Spidey, would that be a stationary or choo choo train engineer?

  • Dwight

    what you believe is what happens…if you believe in nothing then your enegy get returned to the Universe and your individuality is wiped out, if you believe in heaven, purgatory and hell, most likely you will go to purgatory to pay for your sins before going to heaven or you will go straight to hell…if you believe in the thousands of chinese hells, well you know which one applies to you…

  • E Favorite

    Paul C – I used Manhattan as an example. Any well populated locale with people representing a variety of world-views would do. I figured you’d know that — and I think you probably did.

  • Paganplace

    Victoria:”it takes alot of practice and dedication and dogged dedication and persistence in the face of failure- to do research-”No experiment is a ‘failure,’ Victoria, unless maybe you fail to learn anything from it. People braying ‘Science has failed to eliminate uncertainty,’ usually just can’t admit it in themselves, even if they think insisting harder that they have means they did. :)

  • BGone

    No one here knows what George Carlin now knows, what being dead is all about. The only way to find that out is die. Sooner or later we like him will find out. In the mean time Saint George Carlin is still a step ahead of us all.He seems to have understood that religion is a totally separate subject to God. To claim to know about God, what God wants is as ridiculous as to claim to know what happens after one dies.Anyone who says I have spoken to God is an ipso facto proved liar. There is no way to identify God. The best a truthful person can say is I had an unusual experience. Was that God or Lucifer in the burning bush? Sucker.Carlin understood that principle and therefore knew that religion, any religion, all religions are a fraud. Frauds rely on the lie. Lying is not a deadly sin. Lies that cause people to believe are moral even. There are the liars and the lied to found in churches, temples, synagogues and mosques.

  • Jihadist

    Ricardo: “anyone who takes the hell or heaven concept seriously is truly an idiot”.You don’t have to die to be in hell or heaven.”I’m in heaven!”Any idiot, even truly atheistic ones, will attest to this and take the ‘concept’ seriously to make their life be like heaven instead of like hell.**************************************************Harold Lee Mathews: ” If God created man then could someone answer this query? Who created God? Could it be: God number two? And, did God number 3 create God number 2? Can anyone say: Eternal enumeration?”Ah good! Neo modern theoretical-philosophical-theological-illogical math.Believer: God created man.Therefore God created man who created God who created man who created God who created God who created man = Eternal enumeration = infinity QED If the Singularity created the universe, then could someone answer this query? Who created the Singularity? Could it be: Singularity number two? And, did Singularity number 3 create Singularity number 2? Can anyone say: Eternal enumeration?Or, is it cosmic spaced out? “J” the Religionista Guerilla

  • BGone

    The use of “afterlife” was introduced to cloud ancient man’s version of what happens to the dead, the foundation of modern religion’s claim to heaven. It’s not “afterlife” but rather “next life”. Jesus speaks of the “next life” complete with a new body several times in the Gospels, (good news’). “If your eye cause you to sin pluck it out. It’s better to enter [the next] life missing a part of your body that to have a whole one that is cast into fiery hell.”Of course hoax-buster.org explains that, “next life” with Biblical quotes and ancient documents. Hoax buster is a little to honest for a faith forum. Odd that George Carlin isn’t. Planning to condemn George to hell?

  • Amy

    Pam, I have found that those who believe in the infallibility and truthfulness of the Bible are generally those who haven’t read it very closely. Reading the bible is what turned me away from christianity. An all-knowing super-being capable of revealing itself to writers & scribes wouldn’t be so inconsistent, incoherent and just plain ridiculous.

  • Nelson

    Everyone has a lot to say about the veracity of the Bible, the fact that there is not a historical Jesus, (there couldn’t be that name is a Latin name) the fact that there are inconsistencies in the Bible, and many other “proofs” that people should not believe in the G-d of Abram, Issac, and Jacob.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Victoria -Thanks for the comments. Let me respond. You wrote:”now i was thinking, i’m not a scientist- nor trained at all that way- yet i really admire almost idolize scientists-”As do I. I am not a scientist. I have the average grounding in science that most Americans receive from their public schools. However, my interest in science didn’t end when the bell rang on my final class session, and I have not had a fear of science drummed into me by a religion, so I continue to learn from science, rather than actively avoiding it. Ergo, I may APPEAR to have a more-scientific bent than others. My having a greater respect and knowledge of science than the average religious blogger at On Faith speaks to their deficiencies, not to my expertise.”it takes alot of practice and dedication and dogged dedication and persistence in the face of failure- to do research-”Yes it does. I just read about an evolutionary scientist who has been developing a strain of e-coli bacteria over the past 20 years. There have been 44,000 generations of the strain which has evolved in amazing ways.”also there are flashes of inspiration-”and dead ends of tremendous disappointment”why do atheists have such a disdain for the right brained types”let me interrupt here. I believe people need to have a balance of right-left brain. I happen to be a musician whose right-brain can be said to govern the emotional expression of music performance. The left-brain handles the technical end, like reading music and one’s manual dexterity on an instrument. Without left-brain involvement, the right-brain is helpless to even get the notes played on time and in tune. Without right brain involvement, the music may as well be generated by a computer. To continue…”that focus so much time, energy, dedication and persistance in our prayer life?”With my previous paragraph in mind, I would posit that to engage in such right-brained activities to the exclusion of the consideration of left-brained realities (say, science and knowledge) are by definition ego-centric exercises in self-aggrandizement. At best, they are positive attempts at out-of-the-box inquiry. At worst, they’re little more than mental masturbation.” prayer meditation contemplation whatever one likes to call it-”everything in moderation”why would any who recognize and applaud a scientific approach to the material world- not recognize that folks whose minds ar ewired differently have a scientific approach to consciousness?”Isn’t that what education is all about? To fill in the missing pieces of our knowledge set? Why ASSUME that people who are predisposed to right-brained activities are incapable of learning and appreciating left-brained activites…and vice versa? Can a musician not understand the principles of evolution? Can the scientist not enjoy a Beethoven symphony?”doesnt it require an exploration into said processes to dismiss them out of hand?”Religious beliefs are not being dismissed out of hand, they are being dismissed for both lack of evidence and because of evidence TO THE CONTRARY.That is an important point that cannot be stressed enough. When and if religion can and does present EVIDENCE (not hearsay, belief or opinion) to counter things that have been proved scientifically, then and only then does the rational world owe it to itself to not dismiss religion’s “truths” out of hand.Claims made without proof may be dismissed without proof.”its like that stupid love guru thread, i kept asking how people could have an opinion about the movie if they havent seen it?Agreed.”how can non-believers state with such certainty about the mentality of believers when they havent explored that particular branch of humanity?”Who says they haven’t? 99% of the atheists here were believers at one time. They – like you – fervently believed that they not only explored that branch of humanness, but that they experienced the presence of god in one way or another.The certainty of their current non-belief is not a product of their not having explored. It’s actually a certainty that has been reinforced through their previous exploration coupled with the way they believe now having embraced rational thought, real evidence and that which any fair-minded person would consider DEMONSTRATED truth.Back at ya.

  • Anonymous

    testing

  • Jihadist

    Amy : “An all-knowing super-being capable of revealing itself to writers & scribes wouldn’t be so inconsistent, incoherent and just plain ridiculous.”Thanks. That was a very concise history of man and God. From A Self-Revealing All-Knowing, Do Everything God to……….. An Invisible Know Nothing, Do Nothing God. Writers and scribes? Well they are human, so are naturally inconsistent, incoherent and just plain ridiculous sometimes. Even current writers and scribes for or against God. “J”

  • BGone

    Mr Mark:I trust that scientist isn’t responsible for e-coli alleged to be in tomatoes and killing people.A tribute to George Carlin:Nothing left that’s safe to eat except chocolate.

  • spiderman2

    Mr. Mark wrote ” having embraced rational thought, real evidence and that which any fair-minded person would consider DEMONSTRATED truth.”As an Engineer and very much capable of understanding scientificworks, Im really aching to see any DEMONSTRABLE claims by atheists that led them to believe that their kind of science REALLLY DOES EXIST.DNAs are composed of billions of nucleotides but Im still waiting for their DEMONSTRATION how nucleotides form even just a hundred of them. What is the science behind their forming? What mathematical equation or chemical equation ? Surely there should be one if these people are rational being. BUT THERE IS NONE!!!All I get are trash words. Just words and NO REAL SCIENTIFIC BACKING.I can say that the Big Bang Theory is a credible one. I can understand the science behind it. But DNA is a different matter. It shows a very different kind of science. NOBODY HAS BROKE THE CODE YET BUT STILL I HEAR ALL KINDS OF GARBAGE SCIENCE.WHEN WILL YOU GUYS STOP THE STUPIDITY. It’s very irritating to the ears.

  • KJB

    Ian said, “As someone who does not believe there is anything after we die it bugs me that all those who disagree with me will never know they are wrong!!!” While this may be true, what should TRULY bother you is the fact that George and yourself will never know if you were right, but if you are wrong….oh boy will you know. As a believer,it occurs to me that it is a bigger comfort to realize that the only way I’ll ever know the answer about the afterlife is if I am correct in my beliefs, while the only way the non-believers will know the answer about the afterlife is if they are wrong. It just seems like a perfectly strange sense of justice!!!!

  • BGone

    spiderman2:Ah, at last a perfect one to tell us how we know which being that was in the burning bush. Tell us how you engineer/scientist can tell the difference in God and Devil? What are the distinguishing characteristics of God not found in any other being real of mythical?If you really are a scientist you know that anyone who says, “I spoke to God” is a liar because God cannot be identified.The only deadly sin is stupidity committed by those who call Lucifer God.

  • FH

    Spiderman2:”but for God all things are possible.” Christian”but with time, all things are possible” AthiestGet it.

  • Jonathan

    It seems both from Carlin’s life and the comments posted by most on this blog that the true religion most espouse is Mockery. There is a strange absence of compassion and respect on a page devoted to the validity or invalidity of relgion and the afterlife.

  • Jonathan

    It seems both from Carlin’s life and the comments posted by most on this blog that the true religion most espouse is Mockery. There is a strange absence of compassion and respect on a page devoted to the validity or invalidity of relgion and the afterlife.

  • james haluska

    interesting that two men raised as catholics die one after another; so was i, grade 1 thru 12 catholic schools…really liked russert but i LOVED carlin…i’m agnostic, near-athiest…religion is evil…i hope my frisbee lands right next to george’s

  • Old School Journalist

    Is this for real, in one of the nation’s major newspapers?

  • TJ

    Jihadist writes: “If the Singularity created the universe, then could someone answer this query? Who created the Singularity? Could it be: Singularity number two? And, did Singularity number 3 create Singularity number 2? Can anyone say: Eternal enumeration?”Why don’t you try to answer Harold’s question honestly?

  • spiderman2

    FH, try this one and use all your time together with your evolutionist scientists. Make a device that can store human consciousness or memory akin to computers retrieving their “memory” from hard disks or flash memories. You’ll be richer than Bill Gates a billion times if you can solve that.Do some mental acrobatics sometimes so your brains don’t get dull. It will help you too to size up what’s the REAL MEANING of intelligence.Bgone, please explain what made you think the burning bush was Lucifer and not God.c ya later guys.

  • Jihadist

    TJ : Why don’t you try to answer Harold’s question honestly? The very simple point being, we don’t know who or what created God as much as scientists don’t know what created or caused the Singularity that cause the Big Bang.God the Infinite and Unknowable. The Universe the Infinite and Unknowable. For now.Cheers

  • Josephtree

    I stand in the camp of skeptical and maybe even agnostic folks. What I’m most skeptical about is the ability of human thought to extend itself past human limitations.

  • anamika

    It’s nice to see something bold in the Post. It has turned so wimpy and subjective of late.When i saw a couple of Carlin’s sketches, i thought he was not just hilarious, he had guts to call a spade, a spade, especially when it comes to religion.he was right.who knows anything about God?yet, few people whose hunger for power is worse than that of the politicians, claim to be an authority on something, they are as clueless as the rest of us.

  • anamika

    It’s nice to see something bold in the Post. It has turned so wimpy and subjective of late.When i saw a couple of Carlin’s sketches, i thought he was not just hilarious, he had guts to call a spade, a spade, especially when it comes to religion.he was right.who knows anything about God?yet, few people whose hunger for power is worse than that of the politicians, claim to be an authority on something, they are as clueless as the rest of us.

  • anamika

    It’s nice to see something bold in the Post. It has turned so wimpy and subjective of late.When i saw a couple of Carlin’s sketches, i thought he was not just hilarious, he had guts to call a spade, a spade, especially when it comes to religion.he was right.who knows anything about God?yet, few people whose hunger for power is worse than that of the politicians, claim to be an authority on something, they are as clueless as the rest of us.

  • Anamika

    It’s nice to see something bold in the Post. It has turned so wimpy and subjective of late.When i saw a couple of Carlin’s sketches, i thought he was not just hilarious, he had guts to call a spade, a spade, especially when it comes to religion.he was right.who knows anything about God?yet, few people whose hunger for power is worse than that of the politicians, claim to be an authority on something, they are as clueless as the rest of us.

  • Paganplace

    ” spiderman2:”FH, try this one and use all your time together with your evolutionist scientists. Make a device that can store human consciousness or memory akin to computers retrieving their “memory” from hard disks or flash memories. You’ll be richer than Bill Gates a billion times if you can solve that.”Why? Is that what you want from what people say is promised by your God?Do you really have any idea what you’re asking?

  • Corbetto

    As a great fan of Carlin’s – I credit him with helping for my sense of humor as a teenager as I watched his specials on HBO, and then began seeing him in concert when he came to the area – I can only think that…1) It’s him rattling around on the roof of my building since Sunday night, keeping me awake; or, more likely…2) He’d be happy knowing he’s now worm food and nothing more.Yeah, probably #2… because George called it like it is.

  • perspective

    It’s pretty hard for folks past 60 to have any appreciation for today’s humor – or music, for that matter. Since Corporate America co-opted both venues along with the news media for their own profit and control, the quality that was fairly common in these entertainment venues has long disappeared. The products offered give new meaning to the term ‘lightweight’. I don’t think this is necessarily just age-related cloudy perception on the part of our feeble elders! This is Big Business applying time-tested formulas for churning out music and movies that promise quick if passing success, and in the process exercising vast control over artistic creativity. I see this more in the music industry because I rarely go to movies – other than movie-by-video. It’s all about the money. As far as quality goes, whether you liked George Carlin or hated him, he had gravity – really the Lenny Bruce of his age. He conjured up a singular brew of biting, truth-telling, social satire that we will very likely never see again.Say good-bye to the ‘good old days’ – the young ones will probably never know what they missed.

  • Arminius

    All sane people here,Spidey reminds me of an article I read some months ago about a lab breeding rats. They decided to breed two types, one for docility, one for aggression. Since rats breed fast, it was not long before they had results. The docile rats were wonderfully gentile and made great pets. But the aggressive rats – holy s***! – just walk by their cage and they leaped at the bars, trying to attack you.That’s Spidey, a self-bred aggressive rat, screaming at us from his self-made cage. He is to be pitied, and prayed for (if you do that). He is best ignored. Eventually (unlike CCNL) he goes away.Arminius

  • Fate

    I think spidey and FH have had their jobs replaced by robots considering their disdain for machines ever reaching human capabilities. I wonder if they know who/what makes their daily bread?

  • Arminius

    IMPORTANT CORRECTION!Boy did I goof! I wrote, “The docile rats were wonderfully gentile…”Non-Jewish rats! ROTFLMAF! Make that ‘gentle’ rats, please!Hope y’all got a laugh!Arminius

  • Michelle

    That was the first thing I wondered too when I heard Carlin passed away.Of course Carlin wouldn’t say he passed away to anywhere, but it’s a thought that if he did, he must be regretting a lot of things he said rght about now.Anyway, he WAS funny when he first started out, but like many a comedian who just can’t resist the temptation to toss their political and religious beliefs into their so-called jokes, I lost interest in him a long time ago.The only thing that amazes me is the barrage of overzealous bravado be given to this man as if his death was any great loss. Seems to me he made a small fortune at the expense of belief systems he didn’t like. And people applaud this?

  • Nova538

    In the words of an old classic: “You are a Fluke of the Universe, you have no right to be here.” This should be remembered in this age of entitlement that we find ourselves in now. As for Carlin, he pointed out some of the hipocrasies in modern society that needed to be shown. He will be sorely missed by some, if not most.

  • ANGIE FRANCE

    No one can say for sure what someone believes deep down in their heart. He appears to mock the God of the bible and uses objectionable language. He mocks Jesus and what He says in His word so it appears we can pretty much discern where he is right now. Now I believe in the God of the bible. I believe God came to earth in the form of a man. He died on the cross but in three days he arose from the dead as proof our sin debt was paid in full. That is what you trust to gain salvation. It has nothing to do with a religious system that tells you salvation in only possible by doing something. A belief in a Savior and a belief in a religious system are two different things.

  • Paganplace

    Actually, nearly any domestic rat will imprint on you as family if you treat em as such at the right age, Arminius, not that some traits aren’t more prominent in some that others, but even the sweetest-tempered rat might snap at you if you handle them, if they missed that bonding period: not to overstate any ‘Nature vs nurture’ arguments, but rats are very like us, including what happens if you raise em with nothing but cages.

  • RMoore

    Consider this from the perspective of logic: In considering the exclusivist claims of Jesus Christ to be God incarnate, the only means of access to God the Father and eternal life (claims that are recorded in both the Bible and the writings of non-Christian historians of the first century), it would be logical to at least recognize that only those who choose to reject those claims (for whatever reason) have in essence chosen to gamble with their eternity. (This is what makes Christianity so scandalous and offense.) How so? If it turns out that Jesus was not who he claimed to be, then George Carlin and others will have been vindicated and will experience one or none of the myriad of hypothetical destinies that people have proposed throughout history. But if Jesus’ claims are true, then their eternal destiny will be exactly what he has said: separation from God in a very unpleasant place that was originally “prepared for Satan and his demons”. Logically, if the faith of believers in Jesus Christ turns out to be misplaced, they will have lost nothing, since there was never anything to lose. However, they will have gained a life of the peace, happiness, security and significance that we all crave…even if it really was only the “opiate of the masses.” One thing is certain: Mr. Carlin knows exactly where we should place our bet!

  • Bill from Beltway Land

    While George Carlin was certainly one of the funniest and most insightful comedians I have had the pleasure of seeing, we really owe him a debt of gratitude for his influence on those who have followed him. Seinfeld rightly credits G. C. as having had a tremendous influence on him. And this column reminded me of a very funny bit by Steve Martin. It went something like this:”Did you ever wonder what would happen if you died and there really was a St. Peter? And you’re standing at the pearly gates? Oh man, in college they said this was all bu******! What? You’ve been keeping tabs on me? I used the Lord’s name in vain HOW MANY times? MILLION SIX? Jesus Chr…”Thank you George Carlin for poking fun at even our most sacred of institutions. And thank you for showing your brethren the way. Your spirit will live on regardless of where you might end up!

  • perspective

    And speaking of George Carlin and the afterlife, we see the usual religionist pap regarding heaven, hell, and eternal damnation – folks yammering on about stuff of which they have no knowledge whatsoever. Tale-spinning presented as truth. We are creatures of habit, are we not? It reminds me of a Zen story: A disciple asked his master if there was life after death, and the master replied that he didn’t know. The disciple exclaimed, ‘but you’re a Zen Master’!The master replied, ‘yes, but not a dead one’.

  • Alex

    Getting back to Carlin…he was a VERY funny guy…now he’s not. That’s it!

  • Jack

    “And speaking of George Carlin and the afterlife, we see the usual anti-religionist pap denouncing heaven, hell, and eternal damnation – folks yammering on about stuff of which they have no knowledge whatsoever. Tale-spinning presented as truth. We are creatures of habit, are we not? It reminds me of a joke: What are the last words you’ll hear an aethist utter? Help me, God!”Fixed that for ya.

  • lepidopteryx

    I caught a re-airing of the interview he did with Terri Gros on NPR’s “Fresh Air” Monday afternoon on my way to the supermarket. Good thing I had my mp3 player with me; otherwise, I would have sat in the car running the battery down to hear the rest of it, and my husband would have been wondering why it took me so long to buy a carton of milk and a bag of cat food.

  • Brassy

    I would like to point out that while I take calm comfort with my relationship with GOD, most of the posters I see on blogs take PRIDE in their belief…surely a sin!It is one thing to make testament to your beliefs to another without a booming, righteous, overzealous voice. As they say, Pride cometh before the fall.Perhaps George Carlin’s routine did become more angry as he aged. Hypocrisy is everywhere, institutions are in lock-step, Humans have generally turned inward. Nothing he witnessed and spoke of has changed. Truely that is a reason one could become angry…

  • SBLOVE99

    As far as christianity is concerned,in all its forms, denominations, cults and sects, Mr. Carlin was absolutely right!

  • So I found this somehow…

    I just read the first comment which was, “As far as christianity is concerned,in all its forms, denominations, cults and sects, Mr. Carlin was absolutely right!”Really? And you know this for a fact how? Oh wait! That’s right. You never offered proof. Neither did George for that matter.Don’t have to read anymore. I’m sure it’s just more of the same.

  • Paganplace

    “Its 72 virgins. Please know your Islam before mocking it. Thank U.”Odd paradise, that. Seventy three people in a room and none of em know what they’re doing. :)

  • paul c

    Mr. Mark:The fact is, you are a skeptic and all your analysis is colored by that in the same way that my analysis is colored by my belief. It is unlikely that either of us will change the others minds. It is up to the other individuals reading these posts to decide who is more reasonable.

  • Fate

    FH wrote: “If you are going to make outrageous claims, such as: Try these, especially the first one:www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-simpler-origin-for-lifewww.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=were-meteorites-the-origiwww.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/biph/2005/00000020/00000004/00007342biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0030396&ct=1en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_world_hypothesisFH wrote: “Origin of life research is at a standstill…”See any of the above links to prove yourself wrong, if that is possible. Also, Harvard just pumped in millions toward origin-of-life research.

  • Jkoch

    Where do religion satirists and adherents of Frisbeetarianism go when they die?Answer: To the same place everyone else goes, into the lasting memory of those who liked or loved them, or into the erasure trash bin of those who did not. Carlin’s after-life may be more real than his actual life, in that sense. Since his decease, multiple videos of his work have circulated that many, owing to censorship, probably never saw. The contrast between his posthumus celebrity and his mortal fame may not be as dramatic as, say, a Van Gogh, but it may be no surprise that more people know of Carlin 20 years from now than when he was in the flesh: no longer earthly, but as earthy as ever.

  • Paganplace

    I mean, that’d be ironic, being one of those seventy two virgins, you greet some dude who blew himself up for chastity:”Hi, we’re a certain number of virgins…”*three point five seconds later.*”OK, I’ll get the mop.”

  • E Favorite

    Reasonable bnh: “The gospels [are] what many or most people would say is very intelligent observations about mankind. How anyone could simply make this stuff up is beyond me.”FH: “Clearly, no minds are going to be changed here.”On I don’t know, it might get some people to thinking. It certainly would have affected me a couple of years ago if I could have heard people talking like this on an internet forum. Besides, it’s a good discussion to have – if only to see how different people think and how they form, maintain and change their beliefs.Arminius: “We have a lot of indirect proof [of Jesus]. I am not a deep enough student of history to elaborate on this – I wish to hell I were.”You once said you were going to pursue more of the history of Jesus. It would be easy enough to do these days. Plus, I’d like to know what you consider “indirect proof” of Jesus and see examples of your opinion of “indirect proof” of other historical characters.Personally, Arminius, my opinion is that you really don’t want to know. You’re satisfied with your personal Christianity and sense of God within you.Dear Old school Journalist – don’t worry, this is a “Blog” – on the internet only – not delivered to your doorstep in print like in the old days and not considered “news”. Journalism is indeed changing in ways you obviously don’t yet understand.

  • Another former alter boy gone bad! I mean sensible

    Jack:”It reminds me of a joke: What are the last words you’ll hear an aethist utter? Help me, God!”Oh yea Jack? I was at the bedside of my uncle, an atheist, when he died. His las words were, “take the pillow out” (from under his head). You simply do not understand what an atheist is!

  • Mrs. Johnson

    May he burn in the fires of Hades for all eternity.

  • Fate

    VICTORIA asked: “dont atheists ever wonder why millions and millions and billions of people have prayed?”Prayer is taught. When was the last time you saw a child spontaneously pray that was never taught to do so?VICTORIA asked: “isnt it one sided to ignore such a tremendous aspect of our natures?”Just as simple as ignoring the millions and billions who ride bikes. Did God make man in his form so he could ride a bike? Or did man form the bike to his features? Prayer is the same, formed to our need to ask for help from a superior. And we learn to pray just we learn to ride a bike.VICTORIA asked: “just having a bad experience with some adherents of one or another sect doesnt exclude one form investigating further-”I agree. I pray, but its basically talking to myself. Call it meditating if you like but I never learned the technique. You’d be surprised the answers I give myself!VICTORIA asked: “i explored the possibilites of non-godness-but the universe kept compelling me to belief-”The universe compelled you? Really? Are you serious? You see, what you are saying is that you had no control over needing to believe. People smoke cigarettes and cannot stop. Its an addiction, not a universe compelling them. So just what happens when you stop believing that compels you?

  • Mrs. Elizabeth Hunter

    I did agree with his racist rants and his homosexual views but to say there is no God is just terrible. You just wait till the good Lord passes judgment on you Mr. Carlin.”And so sayeth John undo Peter that ye may beget the righteous sword of youth” Edward 9:17

  • beelzebub

    The practitioner of frisbeetarianism goes the same “place” everyone else does when he dies. Why would he be any different?

  • Paganplace

    “i just dont accept the intitial premise of atheists that all believers are motivated singularly by fear-Well, Victoria, if you ever argue with a monotheist, sooner or later it *does* come down to fear and bullying, once it gets through their head they don’t have a monopoly on the Good Stuff.’ Also, when they need to say what they’re doing is the ‘lesser evil,’ ‘Saving Your Soul’ can be made to work for darn near any atrocity.

  • Athena

    If male suicide bombers get 72 virgins, what do female suicide bombers get? 72 Chippendales?

  • Tim

    I won’t miss Carlin. He was not funny just arrogant and stupid. Why is it funny when someone tells you your kids are ugly, rape can be good, and he pretends to be a comedian by throwing the “F” bomb around because he is too lazy to try to be creative or he’s just plain not creative. He did not make me laugh and he never said anything that gave me insight into the world around me. The guy stunk up the place. The smell of him is everywhere these last few days and it will be a relief when he is put in his grave and all this crap about how funny he was subsides and we all forget the man ever lived. The fact that he called himself a comedian and people paid to see him is what is really B.S.

  • M. Burke

    They go to the same places as do the religous when they die: Into the ground where their carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen get recycled.

  • M. Burke

    They go to the same places as do the religous when they die: Into the ground where their carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen get recycled.

  • Sarah

    Perspective, all you’re doing is showing everyone how pissed off can get when you see how some of your comments are viewed by others.You need to realize that your opinion is yours. You have no right to force it on anyone else.Keep your views but get off the slandering of others when they don’t agree.Some of you really need to read the article once, say whatever you want and move on. Staying here to try to change people isn’t going to happen. You’re wasting your time. As for George Carlin, I personally think Tim Russert’s passing was a much bigger loss to society.

  • Paganplace

    I dunno, Athena. I could just see that waitressing job in Asgard with them, “Listen, toots, if all you brought to fight with every day till Fimbulwinter was an explosive vest, then get revived every night and only order coffee, that’s not my fault. Shoulda thought, smart guy.” :)

  • perpective

    Mrs. Elizabeth Hunter – how very un-Christian of you! Imagine hoping that someone will burn in the fires of Hades for all eternity. To be honest, I’m not sure you’re qualified for heaven just yet with that attitude. I think an attitude adjustment is in order, don’t you? A wee bit more loving and compassionate will do nicely….And you’re going to give Christians a very bad name if you’re not careful – revealing your deepest hopes and desires like that!

  • perpspective

    Sarah – who’s pissed off? That’s called projection.

  • Brambleton

    Arminius,Please let me respond in kind.First, as a believer, I would have expected less judgment from you. Discernment would certainly have been acceptable, but it is obvious from your post, that you are looking to rebuke instead of rescue. Sad, really. Can I assume that you have given up all your earthly possessions and embarked on a mission to save Christ’s people?Second, your incoherent rant on the tax rate and our current President was completely off point. I was simply asking Mr. Mark why he believes that a knee jerk reaction to tax the H*ll out of the wealthy is warranted. My question was based on the release of both McCain & Obama’s tax policy if elected. Mr. Mark’s comments, on the other hand, were succint, on point, and instructive in nature. Perhaps you could consider it a teaching point in debate.God only knows where your “robber baron” comment comes from. I don’t recall Jesus instructing anyone to steal from the rich to give to the poor. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction?

  • Nagel

    I don’t think his rape comments, anti-God sentiments or any of the other laughs he got over saying 7 dirty words were the least bit funny. It reminds of kids who giggled when the word “butt” was used.This country could do with a little more seriousness, respect for others and knowing when to just shut up when you don’t have anything nice to say.

  • Anonymous

    Says JKOCH: “Where do religion satirists and adherents of Frisbeetarianism go when they die?Answer: To the same place everyone else goes, into the lasting memory of those who liked or loved them, or into the erasure trash bin of those who did not.”I appreciated a lot of Carlin’s humor–his genius is nearly undeniable, whether you loved his stuff or despised it. I doubt Carlin lives in me though; he himself had a word for that.For us Christians, think of his chances this way–he was never lukewarm; perhaps the most shrill are also the most susceptible to conversion when, in one’s dying moments, one is given a clear choice of continuing to insist on one’s own bullsh*t thinking or taking a leap of faith. Ahem.

  • perspective

    Paganplace – you’re correct on Sirius A, however, Sirius B, the invisible binary twin, was a red giant at one point in it’s life span – the white dwarf phase of a star represents the collapsed state of a red giant. But anyway, it was my mistake, which you adroitly caught! Sirius A was often confused with other red giants because of it’s perceived redness and it’s brightness, as you mention. The irony was that far back in it’s ancient history, the invisible twin was the real red giant. Binary stars are a trip, anyway! Neutron (radio) stars are a more fascinating state of star collapse to my way of thinking, and occur following the supernova of a massive star – the remnant is maybe 10 miles in diameter with a star mass X2 and spinning at hundreds to thousands of revolutions per second. Beyond that state, we have the highly speculative quark star….and then on to black holes. The real cosmos is much stranger than conventional religion would have us know. I subscribe to your idea that our own local universe, vast as it is, may well be only one universe in an much larger and perhaps infinite Metaverse. But then, how much can one person know in a single lifetime? Probably very little, with any degree of certainty. Always a pleasure …….. !

  • jackmax

    He has gone where we all are going NO_WHERE!!!

  • QuestionAuthority

    Hey DBCJR, can you say “false dichotomy?” You are stacking the deck to try to make a point, but you’re actually shooting yourself in the foot. Pascal has it all wrong in “Pascal’s Wager.” The choices are really:a) George is somewhere/somewhen/somehowb) nothing (no afterlife of any kind)c) any of all possible religious alternatives (All Christian sect, Muslim sects, etc, ad nauseum) d) none of all possible religious alternatives (all religions are man-made and wrong). Only a True Beleiver in a particular sect believes that answer c has to be THEIR particular religious preference. Paul C: NDE’s prove nothing except that the brain hallucinates when it is deprived of oxygen. An NDE is purely subjective. What would you say if someone came back from an NDE and said he saw pink Volkswagens, the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man or something equally nonsensical? “One man’s theology is another man’s belly laugh.”

    Sooner or later, we all find out the truth – even if it’s that there is nothing there. Religion is all about social control and fear. If people used more critical thinking, asked questions and rejected recieved authority, the world would be a much better place.

  • perspective

    Paganplace – you’re correct on Sirius A, however, Sirius B, the invisible binary twin, was a red giant at one point in it’s life span – the white dwarf phase of a star represents the collapsed state of a red giant. But anyway, it was my mistake, which you adroitly caught! Sirius A was often confused with other red giants because of it’s perceived redness and it’s brightness, as you mention. The irony was that far back in it’s ancient history, the invisible twin was the real red giant. Binary stars are a trip, anyway! Neutron (radio) stars are a more fascinating state of star collapse to my way of thinking, and occur following the supernova of a massive star – the remnant is maybe 10 miles in diameter with a star mass X2 and spinning at hundreds to thousands of revolutions per second. Beyond that state, we have the highly speculative quark star….and then on to black holes. The real cosmos is much stranger than conventional religion would have us know. I subscribe to your idea that our own local universe, vast as it is, may well be only one universe in an much larger and perhaps infinite Metaverse. But then, how much can one person know in a single lifetime? Probably very little, with any degree of certainty. Always a pleasure …….. !

  • Arminius

    Athena, my friend!”If male suicide bombers get 72 virgins, what do female suicide bombers get? 72 Chippendales?”ROTFLMAO!!! Tears streaming down my face! Thanks! Arminius

  • Sarah

    I’m not pissed off at all, Perspective. I just read your outbursts and noticed you’re banging your keyboard to get your views known. Seriously, no one cares! You’re not going to change anyone’s mind, least of all on a blog.Telling Christians how to act only tells me that you don’t understand Christianity. Christ didn’t come for perfect people. He came for imperfect people. So telling Christians they have to be perfect is rather ignorant of you. It also demonstrates that you educate yourself long enough to where you think you’ll be able to use it as ammunition and that’s not being a very nice person at all. So no matter what you believe, I would at least think that mattered to you but apparently not.Don’t reply, I’m not staying. I’ve had my coffee and now I’m going to work. Maybe you should too!

  • spiderman2

    Have you guys tried talking to a deranged person one time in your life? You thought the guy was normal but when he talked back, suddenly you felt like a jerk for talking to him.I feel the same for Paganplace, Arminius, DITLD and to some degree, Fate. The only reason I reply to Fate is because some people might think that what she’s saying is true despite the contrary. The spider and the fly. Too bad the flies here play when the spider is away.

  • Jeremy

    George Carlin always reminded me of how low Americans could go waving the free speech banner.I never thought he was funny. Rather he was –obnoxious. Yeah, that’s a better word.

  • Paganplace

    Spidey:”Have you guys tried talking to a deranged person one time in your life? You thought the guy was normal but when he talked back, suddenly you felt like a jerk for talking to him.”Oh, *now* you start feeling it. :)Don’t blame me, we’re eulogizing a comedian. :)

  • jessew

    I can’t imagine a less productive use of time than to ponder about the state of George Carlin’s soul.I liked the man and don’t want to think of him burning in hell. Other than that, I just don’t care.

  • Jack

    Have you ever watched two dogs or cats express wonder at what’s going to happen to their soul or one of their siblings souls after death? Wonder and questioning our human activities. Its reasonable to say that if there is life after death that “birds of a feather flock together”. George will go wherever others with similar moral choices, values, and generosity of heart go. Since I don’t George I can’t say – but I can say that his choices are limited: heaven, hell, or purgatory (and then eventually heaven).If George is in purgatory he would be delighted to have your prayers, if he’s in heaven he won’t need them and if he’s in hell he won’t want them.Our Father who art in heaven Holy be thy name thy kingdom come they will be done on earth as it is in heaven give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Amen.

  • Arminius

    Hi, Paganplace,I always thought that Valhalla would be a pretty neat post-death gig. Beats hell outta harps and endless singing. I can’t sing anyway.Oh, yeah. Here I am, a monotheist. I sincerely hope I never got down to fear and bullying. I am well aware that I have no monopoly on the ‘Good Stuff’. And that gives me hope somehow.

  • ghostbuster

    I see Mr. Mark is on his “A Historical Jesus Never Existed” soapbox again. Don’t know why you still grip ever so tightly to that one sir but I do enjoy the conversation when you do.And what’s up with the Washington analogy Paul C.? Next time, simply challenge an anti-theist to apply the same critical analysis to each and every individual historical figure who lived more than say… 1,500 ago and see if we have enough evidence to prove without a doubt that every single one of those individuals existed.Why did I say “every individual” instead of “any individual”? Simple, that is the ruse. It is selective criticism. Jesus this, Jesus that…Personally, I’m a believer but I respect anyone’s choice not to believe and wish them well. If one cannot bear to accept the historical fact that a man named Jesus (messiah or not) walked the earth about 2,000 years ago, I wish them well too… but chuckle a little.regards

  • spiderman2

    Unless George Carlin repented before he died, he is DOOMED to Hell. I don’t want him to go to hell despite his unbelief, but that is simply the FACT of life.Eintein’s work on his Theory of Special Relativity was just a list of mathematical formulas and based on those formulas, one can deduce that a powerful bomb CAN be made. No such bomb yet existed before he made those formulas but it served as THE CRYSTAL BALL of things to happen.Based on those formulas, THOSE WHO UNDERSTOOD IT CAN SEE THE FUTURE. The future is that a very powerful bomb will soon exist. And as we all know now, the Atomic Bomb now exist.The same can be said of the Bible. A big part of the Bible are told in FIGURES OF SPEECH — metaphors, parables and personifications. Much of these figures of speech are never understood by lots of people including FALSE RELIGIONS like Catholicism, liberal Protestantism, Judaism, etc. Those who understood Einstein’s Formula CANNOT DENY that a very dreadful powerful bomb CAN be made. They would be like fools if they say otherwise. They may NOT want it to exist but the formula says it all. I may not want Hell to exist but the “UNINTELLIGLE book” to many, and at the same a very WISE book to those who can follow its “MAZE” says it does exist. One can opt to burn those Einstein Formulas or burn the HOLY BOOK, but it won’t disannul what is written in those documents.How did the Book knew that it’s possible to burn very large concrete metropolis in just ONE HOUR as if it knew beforehand the existence of Eintein’s Formulas? How did it knew of the powerful countries it depicted like the U.S, China, Russia, etc when these countries or some of these countries never existed before? The same book spoke of Hell. It may not sound “RATIONAL” as to why Hell exists just as it sounds irrational to think how a small mass or matter can obliterate whole cities, but it’s there. IT’S THERE DESPITE THE “IRRATIONALITY”.CAN’T YOU HEAR ME?? IT’S THERE AND SOON MANY WILL EXPERIENCE IT’S TRUE WRATH JUST AS THE JAPANESE EXPERIENCED EINSTEIN’S FORMULA. Their ignorance did not save them from annihilation. Thinking that Hell don’t exist won’t save you either from it’s wrath.CAN’T YOU SEE IT ?? DESPITE HE’S BEING THE CREATOR OF THIS UNIVERSE, HE LET HIMSELF HANG ON THE CROSS JUST TO WARN THE PEOPLE OF THE COMING WRATH. Read the book of Revelation as I did. Read it again and again as I did. It’s like a crystal ball. By the grace of God , He’ll show it to you what is the future of mankind.Unless George Carlin repented before he died, he is DOOMED to Hell. I don’t want him to go to hell despite his unbelief, but that is simply the FACT of life. A very sad fact of life.”Seek and Ye shall Find”. I sought and I found. If that verse is true to me, it can be true to all. For years, I seek. Get ready for a long search, if it comes to that. FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION.

  • Brambleton

    Mr. Mark,Thank you for your response.I would argue, and this is only from my own personal experiences, that inherited wealth isn’t inherently bad. Sure, I bet there is a lot of people out there who have achieved wealth on the backs of current or former family members. But if I look at myself or those around me, that simply isn’t the case. Each generation accumulated more wealth than the prior, and those funds were passed down. For example, my kids enjoy a family beach house that wouldn’t have been possible without the hard work and accumulated wealth of my parents and grandparents. But that shouldn’t be a strike against them, should it?As a corporate tax attorney, I would argue that the “unfair advantages” you discuss in the code aren’t “given” to anyone. They are simply enjoyed, fairly or unfairly, by those who can understand them. My biggest corporate client pays almost $1.5 billion in U.S. federal taxes each year. So while in rare cases, the Warren Buffet’s of the world pay relatively smaller taxes, the counter argument holds true as well.

  • Beaver

    Maybe, George Never met someone on earth that could tell Him the Truth that He longed to find?And Maybe he did?Thank God, He allows only those that know Him decide.John 20 21:23

  • LukeB.

    This dude admittedly snorted more cocaine, dropped more acid and smoked enough marijuana than most kids in my entire High School, yet a few comments are sucking up his distorted comedy routine as something to be admired now.I think some of you need to lay off the drugs. The dude was trying to be funny. A bad style of funny most of the time, but hey, that’s the only thing that could pay the bills.But to worship him is nuts. Then again, so was George. Total nutjob from all the drugs he took.

  • RB

    They go where all good, moral Republicans go that are the backbone of religion. This guy would breath, eat and sleep republican values using every foul word in the english language. This is why I will never support or go to a church that engages in politics and cast any church or religion as liars to the faith. I am sorry for his death but not for a man that represented so much hatred. He will have more swear word than hell and will do fine there.

  • spiderman2

    Mr. Mark, you don’t know what you are talking about. Im familiar with computers and its capabilities. Computers are still very far away too primitive compared to the human brain. You just don’t know it but your brain or even Arminius’ brain are lightyears ahead more intelligent than any computer in this world. Nobody likes flies but despite that they still continue to exist. I can shut off all computers in this world but would fail to exterminate all the flies. The reason? Flies are much more intelligent than computers. To my consolation, spiders are samrter than the fly.

  • Another former alter boy gone bad! I mean sensible.

    Luke: “This dude admittedly snorted more cocaine, dropped more acid and smoked enough marijuana than most kids in my entire High School, yet a few comments are sucking up his distorted comedy routine as something to be admired now.”Yes, time of a life is short; so much to do. You left off the list to screw as many women as you can before you can’t.

  • Fate

    Ok spidey, since I have your attention, maybe you could answer the question I have put to you many times before: Why are there kangaroos in Australia when the bible says its not only impossible for kangaroos to be there, but any land animal, because the flood would have killed them and only animals that departed the ark after the flood, in Asia, would have populated the world. Or did the kangaroos hop to Australia from Asia?If I am incorrect about my interpretation of the biblical passages in Genesis, please let me know where it allows for kangaroos in Australia. Also, where are all the dinosaurs? And if Genesis is not accurate about the flood, just how can the bible be trusted in other areas?

  • LukeB.

    Nah, I’m married now. I love my wife. I have no desire to bang anything that walks to fill my ego anymore.That’s not what life is about. That was kid-think. Time to grow up.

  • Fate

    FH wrote: “I don’t think naturalism or creationism are going to be proved in our lifetime, so I’m going to go with the one that provides me comfort and hope.”Well, naturalism has been proved many times and in many ways. And the results have been backed up yet again with recent DNA mappings of other species. The amount of evidence for naturalism is volumous and the inconsistencies are few. You cannot say that about creationism and you cannot find creationist papers offering anything in the way of proofs FOR creationism, which indicates it is not science.As for “go with the one that provides me comfort and hope”, sorry to be so blunt, but believing in whatever is most comforting ignores reality, and ignoring reality is by definition delusion.FH wrote: “That seems a reasonable and rational position…I honestly don’t see how your view is any more likely.”Read up on naturalism, get some facts, learn something instead of seeking out ignorance and comfort.FH wrote: “And before you try and dazzle me with your brilliance…I’ve read Stenger and Dawkins, and they probably covered all your retorts.”I would point you to more academic texts. Dawkins et. al. use science in their arguments, but if you do not know science and its results you can easily dismiss them. I’m saying to get out there and learn what thousands of scientists have uncovered, tested, compared with other finding and found to be true or have a high degree of likelyhood. After you have learned how the real world works, from geology to chemistry to biology to physics, you might begin to understand what Dawkins and Carlin are saying. Here’s one small thing for you to read up on and consider: The “Burgess Shale” is in British Columbia and is a mountainous region 8000 feet high. But its a shale that originally formed at the bottom of a shallow sea and contains some of the first multicellular organisms (sea creatures) to have formed on the earth. All are now extinct. Not one fossil of an existing creature can be found. In other words, of the literally millions of fossils found so far in the shale, none are of species around today. Do you think it is a coincidence that not one crab or lobster, flounder or other sea dwelling creature currently around would be fossilized? Just those that went extinct? Scientists understand this reality. And how did a sea floor end up in the mountains at 8000 feet? Geologists know and how it happened was made abundantly clear last month in Sichuan provence in China. But many believers do not want to know, prefering the comfort of delusion. Next time you are sick and need a doctor, consider whether you want a doctor who understands the realities of your illness, or one who believes in whatever is of comfort and hope.

  • spiderman2

    Fate, we’ve discussed this previously already. I thought that topic was closed already. As I’ve said, the Bible did not discuss creation in detail. It just spoke of the sequence but not the details. NOBODY UNDERSTANDS CREATION. In short, nobody knows how those kangaroos existed. If I remember it correctly, I think I said these words : ” Only idiots or atheists know how creation works. Ask Arminius. Maybe he knows. He is not an atheist but I think he’s an idiot”.

  • ghostbuster

    Brambleton:Wow, that 1.5 Billion in taxes figure is remarkable. Do you think that your client is unfamiliar with the tax work arounds, or is simply in a position where those benefits do not apply.I think educating oneself in financial matters is of utmost importance.

  • Blee

    I really don’t matter what the rest of us think about what George Carlin thinks about religion. He’s on his way to discovering the truth while we are still struggling to learn the truth. Those of you that “think” you already know the truth,…. I’ll pray for you. I would rather live a life of believing and find that I was wrong after I die …… than live a life of not believing and find that I was wrong after I died.

  • Blee

    It really doesn’t matter what the rest of us think about what George Carlin thinks about religion. He’s on his way to discovering the truth while we are still struggling to learn the truth. Those of you that “think” you already know the truth,…. I’ll pray for you. I would rather live a life of believing and find that I was wrong after I die …… than live a life of not believing and find that I was wrong after I died.

  • Herrbrahms

    Seems to me that he’s exactly where he thought he’d be at this point: dead and gone forever. No heaven, no hell, no anything.The irony is that the point is lost on so many who continue to believe the fairytales pounded into their brains during childhood.

  • Arminius

    Fate,Do us all a favor and stop encouraging Spidey. He will never give you an answer that can be understood by anyone remotely sane. I quizzed him once on the two different creation stories in Genesis, and got drivel in reply. If we ignore him, he will go elsewhere.

  • Brian

    George Carlin would be horrified to know he was being discussed in such a ridiculous forum. But he won’t know, because he’s dead. Not burning in hell or sitting on a cloud, he just isn’t here anymore.For an example of the complete absurdity of religion, please see spiderman2′s comments. I honestly hope those are the remarks of a 12-year old.Now Joe Pesci’s a guy who knows how to get things done.

  • Brian

    George Carlin would be horrified to know he was being discussed in such a ridiculous forum. But he won’t know, because he’s dead. Not burning in hell or sitting on a cloud, he just isn’t here anymore.For an example of the complete absurdity of religion, please see spiderman2′s comments. I honestly hope those are the remarks of a 12-year old.Now Joe Pesci’s a guy who knows how to get things done.

  • E Favorite

    Paul C: “But I will point out that there are similar available data that point to the existence of Jesus that you discard as unreliable: The multitude of Christian writings of the time (Canonical and non-canonical). Josephus’ account, the shroud of Turin.”What about non-“Christian” writings,” Paul? Anything substantive there – even including Josephus, which is considered highly suspect among theologians. Of course you know that the shroud of Turin is highly questioned – no proof at all that it’s from the first century, lots of indication that it’s from medieval Europe. Even if it were first century, no way to prove that it’s Jesus and not some other crucified person. Had you thought of that?I wonder – are you truly as naïve as you seem to be about Christian history, or are you using this forum as an attempt to spread more Christian propaganda? Maybe it’s both.Then you say: “The fact is, you [Mr Mark] are a skeptic and all your analysis is colored by that in the same way that my analysis is colored by my belief.”Not really – all information isn’t equal – analysis based on information supported by facts and evidence is better than analysis based on beliefs. Example – the “believer” says God caused a tornado in a small town to punish sinners there. The “skeptic” says it was caused by particular meteorological patterns which can be scientifically tracked by academically trained meteorologists. I do think you’re right about one thing: people reading these posts can easily see who’s being more reasonable.

  • Anonymous

    George Carlin wasn’t funny. We are and he had the good sense to notice. He was anti-religious and we had the courtesy to provide him with endless fodder. What could possibly be more hilarious than a dwindling cabal of elderly white men, dressed in medieval satins, ignoring when their own sexually prey on children, commanding attendance at ever emptying churches, terrified that their black brethen will replace them, who cling to a leader who demands we accept his infallibity? Popes, ayatollahs, all the same. If any of these loons are so smart, let them pick the Powerball number. And let’s not forget the evangelical notion that although we may sin rapaciously from Monday through Saturday, on Sunday we can leap back into the river and be once more saved because of a 2000-year-old execution. Maybe Jesus died for somebody’s sins, but I bet he expected them to try to stop. Redemption is not a reset button.Read George and you find a deeply spiritual person; maybe, he was not your kind of spiritual, which will not likely bother him much. Of course, we devolve to our atoms but I’m hooking up with George and Jesus for supper. They’re having pork chops.

  • Fate

    spiderman2 wrote: “Fate, we’ve discussed this previously already. I thought that topic was closed already. As I’ve said, the Bible did not discuss creation in detail. It just spoke of the sequence but not the details. NOBODY UNDERSTANDS CREATION.”Oh but Genesis is in very good detail about the ark and flood. It specifies the size of the ark, goes into detail that ALL animals made it onto the ark, the people who went into the ark, and specifies how many days and nights the flood lasted. I am not talking about creation, I’m talking about the flood, which the bible talks about in *great* detail.spiderman2 wrote: “In short, nobody knows how those kangaroos existed. If I remember it correctly, I think I said these words : ” Only idiots or atheists know how creation works. Ask Arminius. Maybe he knows. He is not an atheist but I think he’s an idiot”.”Again, I asked about the flood, not creation. Did the flood happen or did it not? Would it have killed everything in Australia or not? How did animals that survived the flood on the ark get to Australia after the flood? You know spidey, it is this type of nonsensical biblical story that Carlin made fun of, and believers get annoyed at being asked about. If you want to shove your faith at me, I will shove the questions about your faith back at you, and we’ll see just who can defend what they believe to be real.

  • Paganplace

    Hi, Arminius. :)”Hi, Paganplace,”I always thought that Valhalla would be a pretty neat post-death gig.” I hear they tip well. :) Meanwhile, back in the universe where the fact that turning off computers doesn’t kill flies, and that proves something about the universe, I guess we’ll have to be the ‘deranged’ ones. :)

  • Fate

    Blee wrote: “I would rather live a life of believing and find that I was wrong after I die …… than live a life of not believing and find that I was wrong after I died.”This is Pascal’s wager, a tool of fear. As noted earlier in this blog religions use carrots and sticks to demand and maintain belief. The carrot of course is a gold plated afterlife, something to comfort you as you contemplate death and its aftermath.But I find believing based on fear just what would send one to hell, based on the bible I’ve read. I mean, is believing out of fear what a true God would want? Would believing “just in case” get one into heaven? Are the men who ran the mafias in heaven because they believed and received last rights? If so I think I’d rather be on a roof with Carlin, telling jokes and laughing for eternity while you get to sit on a cloud with believers of the worst sort.

  • Mrs. Elizabeth Hunter

    Perspective,You should not have cheated on your spouse.

  • spiderman2

    Biblical prophecies of cities burning in just ONE HOUR used to be a “fairy tale”. It’s just impossible to happen. With the advent of nukes, the “fairy tale” is now a REALITY. And right now, nobody wants to give up their nukes. They would rather use it than give it away. If you’re a mathematician, you can solve the probability of the so called “fairy tale” to happen. It’s VERY PROBABLE. Not a fairy tale anymore.

  • Feeling Free

    George Carlin is now a dead biological tissue just like everybody else. There is no god, no afterlife no nothing that the merchants of these neandrathal religions like to portray. Get over it you religious twits

  • Tom

    It’s pretty simple, Fate:If you believe in a just God, you believe that there are consequences to bad actions that were never restituted. Some are believed to be spent in this life. Some are believed to be spent in the hereafter.If that makes you afraid of Hell, that’s common sense. Who wouldn’t be afraid of knowing they’re going to a bad place for being a bad person?The concept of God is not hard to understand considering the comlexities of the universe and how that doesn’t jive with a big bang theory.The concept of justice is also not hard to fathom, either. You can fathom it from government, your parents and society in general, but you laughably dismiss justice as a concept past your own reality. The older I get, the more I understand the goal this mindset is trying to get across. It’s that when men decide there is no God, they then make themselves the Superior Being of all.I’m just waiting on man to create a universe. Now that’ll be impressive. In the meantime, I’m sure man will just dismiss the universe as happenstance because he’s incapable of delivering.

  • Fate

    Sorry Aminius, I’m Irish and do not ignore those who call everyone else an “idiot” when they cannot defend their position. Plus spidey is here, again. He does not go away. Sort of like that fly he’s talking about.

  • perspective

    Apparently Sarah has not done much blogging on this website, otherwise she’d know that the last thing anyone expects, is to change opinions or beliefs – what we’re actually doing is amusing ourselves, and exercising a form of free expression. If you post here, you may draw the attention, and even the ire, of others. You may even learn something new. Believers of all stripes can expect non-believers to not only disagree, but to occasionally do so vocally and in explicit terms. Perhaps as a Christian, Sarah can relate better to the posts of Spiderman2, but I’m not so sure he’s the best representative of sanity that Christianity has to offer on these threads. Anyway, non-believers who engage believers expect broadsides from folks such as Sarah and Jack and Spiderman2, and much worse! Anything is possible on these threads – Sarah may even have gone back to work, but how would I know? At least we both like coffee. And actually Sarah, I do know Christianty quite well…but here’s the thing – religionists speak their beliefs as though they were talking of established facts, when nothing could be further from the truth. Those of us that are sticklers for the truth, feel compelled to respond to mythology spoken as truth. You see, there is a difference. Even a believer should be able to see the difference, don’t you think? And by the way, you’re irritation is pretty transparent. As for me, I’m trying hard not to pound my keyboard. regards -

  • FRIENDOBILL

    Mrs. Johnson:Ah, we finally hear from the Greek Mythology contingent – Excellent! Now THERE’S a religion I can get behind.All hail Athena!

  • Stick

    He was a bitter, angry man who is probably living in a Hell somewhere. I don’t think dying bitter and angry is good for your afterlife.

  • FRIENDOBILL

    STICK:I don’t think that being a judgmental **** is all that helpful either.Of course, I could be wrong.

  • dmm1

    He’s in hell. Sad but true.

  • Anonymous

    The goofy guy gets all the attention – didn’t work in highschool but adults have long forgotten the unjust purgatory of secondary ed. Spiderman2 would be an abysmal failure as a 12th grader, but is doing pretty well here On Faith!

  • Tom

    I agree George was very angry in his stints, too. I also agree he did way too many drugs to be taken seriously. I think it’s funny how the Atheists are coming out to carry a torch of some sort in the name of Carlin now. To me, it just makes them look silly. The guy was a jerk to any religion. He had no respect for belivers of any God. If I were Atheist, I wouldn’t be picking out Carlin blogs to use as my case in point, that’s for sure.

  • FRIENDOBILL

    dmm1:That’s probably not your decision to make.Again, I could be wrong here.

  • WarDog

    All these posts from the superstitious cretinous crowd about Carlin being in “hell” have at least one good side: despite cutbacks in the book review section, there’s still plenty of room in American media for fiction.

  • spiderman2

    Here’s my take. Is it possible that creation still continue to this day and that those kangaroos existed right after the flood? I don’t know. Creation is a very complex subject. The difference between me and evolutionists is that I don’t make hasty conclusions. You don’t debunk the flood account if you guys are still groping for answers yourselves. Do you know what’s the radius of the earth when the flood occured? Radius and gravity are connected. Does it mean water can accumulate at much larger amounts in the atmosphere thus causing a great flood? That’s the difference between an Engineer and evolutionists. We make smart questions, while evolutionist makes lousy conclusions without asking any question. They just declare it out of the blue that they have gorilla genes. That’s understandable coz they seem like to think like gorillas.

  • Brambleton

    Ghost,It is what it is. Are there different ways “they” could be doing things to reduce tax expense? Probably. But not enough to make a significant impact.Contrary to popular belief, corporations do pay taxes and they don’t have some magic wand to get rid of them.

  • spiderman2

    Perspective wrote “And actually Sarah, I do know Christianty quite well”.Quite a lot of atheists claim that. That’s is what I call FAIRY TALE. These guys are dreaming.If you don’t believe me, prove me wrong. Interpret this for me please :”And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.”Just to make it simple, WHAT STARS WAS IT TALKING ABOUT? WHAT IS IT REFERRING TO?Dream on.

  • Excedrin

    Why don’t y’all just believe what you want and quit being gutter-slugs of the internet. Y’all act like this guy dying is your chance to spew your propaganda and hate against everyone who doesn’t agree with you.That said, Carlin was good before he started the same propaganda seen here. Then it became more like, “Good riddance, George!”Same goes for the rest of you trying to follow in his footsteps. The guy was a rude bastard and there’s nothing to praise.

  • Mr Mark

    Re: kangaroos in AustraliaFor those interested in facts (ie: those who are not Spidey), the fossil record clearly shows that marsupials migrated from S America, across Antarctica and eventually into Australia. Once again, and instance where science and fact are so much more compelling than the fables of the Bible.

  • Fate

    Anonymous wrote: “The goofy guy gets all the attention…”Remember, to an atheist all believers are goofy, but this site is called “On Faith”, not “On Reality”. So who is getting all the attention? Not those who are grounded in reality that is for sure. I mean, Cal Thomas is PAID to write here. Maybe the Post should have an On Science blog. Their science section, if you can find it, is pretty poor (go to News, then Nation, then Science). And don’t expect to see a blog there. Just an article or two once a week.

  • Amy

    “George Carlin would be horrified to know he was being discussed in such a ridiculous forum. But he won’t know, because he’s dead. Not burning in hell or sitting on a cloud, he just isn’t here anymore.”Nah he’d find it all very amusing, especially the crap about him going to hell. Or maybe he’d be proud of the way he helped to change the dialogue about religion in public places. In the 1970s the only way you could criticize religion was in comedy or perhaps science fiction. Now we can openly point out its flaws and absurdities and find that we’re not alone in those observations. If he hadn’t talked about Sister Mary Discipline with the steel ruler, could we talk so openly about the fiction of a historical Jesus or the barbarism of cannibalistic riturals?

  • Arminius

    Fate,I’m Scots-Irish. Father born in North Ireland of direct Scottish ancestry. I have all the worst (and hopefully some of the best) characteristics of those two remarkable peoples.All I was saying is that trying to converse with Spidey is worse than talking to a brick wall. The brick wall, at least, does not answer back drivel and tell you that you are stupid and demented. In other words, a waste of time.

  • Tommy Mack

    Has anyone here ever been severely abused both mentally and physically? I have. And thanks to such a rigorous daily routine of beatings and mental torture over a span of over 30 years, I have learned to think for myself. Jesus never had it as good as yours truly.So to all you spoiled, rich Washingtonians – Go out and get a good beating.

  • FRIENDOBILL

    Is it me, or are the atheist zealots starting to sound about as nuts as the religious zealots?Judging others – now there’s something we can all get behind!(Of course, I could be wrong.)

  • Paganplace

    *public service announcement.*Do you, or someone you love, have a gambling problem? Do you often find yourself borrowing from Peter to pay Paul for those wild binges of condemnation and Straw Men Gone Wild? Do you find ourself selling out your career and replacing it with fallacies, just in hopes of one day getting the Big Score?Here at Pascal’s Wager Addicts Anonymous…

  • FYI

    George Carlin may have made comedy runs that said he was Atheist but anyone who has seen his interviews knows that he often used references to “nature”. He thanked “nature” as if it were intellectual. A true Atheist doesn’t believe in any higher authority other than himself. Nothing exists to him that is higher intelligence.I don’t think he ever gave up on his roots. It was ingrained in him and though he tried hard to shed it, it bugged him way too much to believe he didn’t really believe in God. I think he did. He tried hard to deny it. The anger was clearly there. But the drugs, the lashing out and everything else that was rebellious George pointed to his struggle with his upbringing. He was definitely unable to come to terms with that. He often said he never changed from what he thought and felt from age 14-15. That’s pretty immature.I hope he did get right with it in the end.

  • Mrs. Johnson

    FiendofBill:Have you and your “partner” gotten hitched yet?

  • Mr Mark

    SPIDERMAN2 sez:FINALLY, Spidey says something I can agree with: you DON’T know.The earliest known marsupial is Sinodelphys szalayi (ie: Chinese opossum), which lived in China around 125 million years ago. This makes it almost contemporary to the earliest placental fossils, which have been found in the same area.A near-complete fossil of a kangaroo found in Australia has been dated to 25-million years. The “modern” version of the kangaroo evolved 5-8 million years ago.SO – unless Noah’s flood happened 25-million years ago, your speculation about the kangaroo being “created” post-flood is the stuff of abject, willful stupidity.Have a nice day.

  • spiderman2

    My science : black people are black because they live in a hot place where the sun’s radiation cause the skin to darken. A skin reaction to block harmful UV rays. Fate science or Quack science : They are black because they are the nearest descendants of her “common ancestor” with apes. Also Charles Dawin said so. The man who look like an ape himself.The science of these people stinks. There are flies everywhere.Mr. mark, have you tried asking questions yourselves why marsupials would like to migrate to australia from south America? If you don’t find a human skeleton on the moon, does that mean no man ever walked the moon?I hope there is an IDIOT SECTION in WaPo. This faith section are full of idiots.

  • Paul in Pittsburgh

    For those unfamiliar with it:George Carlin invented the parody religion Frisbeetarianism for a newspaper contest. He defined it as the belief that when a person dies “his soul gets flung onto a roof, and just stays there”, and cannot be retrieved.Brilliant!

  • Mr Mark

    Arminius -I apply the same standard of proof to the question of Jesus’ existence as I would anyone else.It can be easily proved that Julius Caesar existed because the Romans kept good records. The Egyptians also kept excellent records, so we know that certain personalities from their time existed as well.The major reasons that I don’t believe Jesus existed are a combination of the following:The Gospel of Mark was the first story of Jesus that was written, all others are dependent on it, and Gospel of Mark shows clear signs of being written as an allegorical fictionVirtually every detail of the life of Jesus comes from “Old Testament” scripturesSome of the details of the life of Jesus are based on mistranslations of the Hebrew scripturesJesus’ crucifixion on Passover defies historical believability, yet makes perfect sense metaphoricallyThe Gospels make many claims that are contradicted by the historical recordThe earliest writings about Jesus, from Paul and others, contain no details of his lifeMany statements in the letters of Paul only make sense if Paul does not view Jesus Christ as a historical personThere is not one single writing from or about Jesus during his supposed lifetimePhilo, a prolific Jewish writer who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE, wrote extensively about the political and theological movements throughout the Mediterranean, and his views foreshadowed Christian theology, yet he never once wrote anything about Jesus. Not only this, but he actually wrote about political conflicts between the Jews and Pontius Pilate in JudeaAll of the non-Christian references to Jesus can be shown to have either been introduced later by Christian scribes or were originally based on Christian claimsThere is no evidence of any knowledge of a tomb of Jesus (empty or occupied) prior to the Gospel storiesThere were many conflicting beliefs about who Jesus Christ was in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centuries, including beliefs that he had never existed on earth “in the flesh”The lifestory of Jesus is an amalgam of details culled from the lives of pagan godsThere’s more, of course, but taken together, the evidence and lack of evidence argues strongly against his existence.

  • Fate

    Tom wrote: “If you believe in a just God, you believe that there are consequences to bad actions that were never restituted. Some are believed to be spent in this life. Some are believed to be spent in the hereafter.”What, no consensus? You’d think God would make this pretty clear, but it seems man is arguing over it, even within christianity.Tom wrote: “If that makes you afraid of Hell, that’s common sense. Who wouldn’t be afraid of knowing they’re going to a bad place for being a bad person?”I know of no one who ends up in a good place, on earth, for being a bad person. I abide by the golden rule and a few others, like “what goes around comes around”. Being a good person is its own reward, I don’t need a God to scare me into being a good person. Actually I don’t believe its possible to make a bad person good though fear.Tom wrote: “The concept of God is not hard to understand considering the comlexities of the universe and how that doesn’t jive with a big bang theory.”The big bang theory has made predictions that have been shown through experiments and observations to be true. What you should consider is that the bible does not mention the existance of the universe. Its writers believed the universe was the earth surrounded by a series of shells where the sun, moon, planets and stars resided, with heaven outside that. Today we know that version of the universe is false, yet that seems to be ok with those who “believe in the bible”.Tom wrote: “The concept of justice is also not hard to fathom, either. You can fathom it from government, your parents and society in general, but you laughably dismiss justice as a concept past your own reality.”Oh no, justice is a reality which does not require believe in a God. We have courts don’t we? Our laws are designed to administer justice. And laws and justice exist in most lands, christian and not. Justice is not derived from religion, it comes from being human.Tom wrote: “The older I get, the more I understand the goal this mindset is trying to get across. It’s that when men decide there is no God, they then make themselves the Superior Being of all.”Please name those who you feel this has happened to and I will name two who were believers who did the same. I know of no atheists who feel superior to others. In fact, being an atheist is humbling. You understand that we are all animals, relatively equal, with frailties and faults. My favorite saying is that “people are stupid”, which includes myself. We all do stupid things now and then, its just human, so to get upset when someone runs a red light or stop sign is no reason to get mad at them. How many christians would feel the same?Tom wrote: “I’m just waiting on man to create a universe. Now that’ll be impressive. In the meantime, I’m sure man will just dismiss the universe as happenstance because he’s incapable of delivering.”Actually man knows quite a bit about the universe and what happened even the first millseconds after it formed. Current observations are leading cosmologists to consider a previous universe, one that existed before ours. Its all based on observations and facts with lots of math and theories which make predictions. Not on faith. What I find most interesting is that when scientists prove something like a starting point of the universe, they praise the science has backing up the biblical story of creation, yet when presented with equally compelling science that goes against the biblical stories, like evolution, the science is trounced as false, and worse, as a conspiracy against the religion. That makes no sense and is yet another example of the delusion that religion requires of believers.

  • Pastor Greg Harbaugh

    As a Roman Catholic, George had been and still is among the baptized. For those who don’t believe in thePastor Greg Harbaugh

  • spiderman2

    Mr. Mark wrote “The “modern” version of the kangaroo evolved 5-8 million years ago.”You guys should stop using the word evolution coz it’s not a proven science. It’s synonymous to the word magic. This is how your statement reads to me. THE MODERN VERSION OF THE KANGAROO PERFORMED MAJIC 5-8 MILLION YEARS AGO.In Engineering, you don’t just put any equations to solve a problem unless that equation is PROVEN absolutely correct.The reason we have a very MUDDY science is because that MAGIC WORD evolution is being sprinkled all around as if it’s already a proven science. YOUR KIND OF SCIENCE IS FILLED WITH RUSTS. Soon it will crumble like a house of cards. JOKER cards, that is.

  • Mr Mark

    SPIDERMAN2:Spidey gets it exactly backwards!It is the caucasians who have LOST their dark pigmentation through evolution as a result of humans migrating north from “hot places” to colder climates with less sunlight year round.What an ass you are, Spidey. You’re an engineer you say? Give my regards to Thomas the Tank Engine and Mr Conductor!

  • Fate

    spiderman wrote: “Here’s my take. Is it possible that creation still continue to this day and that those kangaroos existed right after the flood? I don’t know.”The bible does not say creation continues. It says it happened once, in the beginning, not every now and then.spiderman wrote: “Creation is a very complex subject. The difference between me and evolutionists is that I don’t make hasty conclusions. You don’t debunk the flood account if you guys are still groping for answers yourselves.”Again, this is not about creation, its about the flood. The real answer to how kangaroos ended up in Australia was discussed by Mr. Mark. What is clear is that kangaroos could not have survived the flood on the ark and then make it to Australia now could they? And there is no evidence for this possibly happening except in the words of the bible. Please consider that for a while.spiderman wrote: “Do you know what’s the radius of the earth when the flood occured? Radius and gravity are connected. Does it mean water can accumulate at much larger amounts in the atmosphere thus causing a great flood? That’s the difference between an Engineer and evolutionists. We make smart questions, while evolutionist makes lousy conclusions without asking any question. They just declare it out of the blue that they have gorilla genes. That’s understandable coz they seem like to think like gorillas.”Well spidey, you do the math. Could the radius of the earth have changed in the past 6000 years? Could all the water on earth completely cover all its mountain peaks, as the bible says happened. An engineer could find the info and answer that question. One thing is clear however, the evolutionists know where kangaroos came from. You cannot answer this question nor can your faith. So which do you choose, your faith or reality, to believe? You seem to be accepting that the story of the flood is not true. If so, what other parts of the bible are not true? Would you trust your Engineering text book if one of its major chapters was just as wrong?Oh, and you have gorilla genes, lots of them.

  • Arminius

    Congratulations, everybody. By replying to the demented rants of Spidey, you have encouraged him to barf further over the blog, and he now dominates it. Please stop replying to him, let’s have a discussion/debate/argument with real minds at work.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Spidey -Your posts have caused me to lose any hope that engineers have the ability to reason. The best I think we can hope for is that they some day learn how to spell.CAB BRAIN COME FROM SOIL? DO SOME PEOPLE SIT ON THEIR BRAINS? DO SOME PEOPLE SOIL THEIR PANTS WITH THEIR BRAINS?

  • Anonymous

    Spiderman2 – Wow, you’re into astrology too? Or is that just something outlandishly mythical from Revelations – more doom and gloom? Actually, it sounds like a reference to Betelgeuse, a red giant (star) in the Orion constellation (a mere 427 light years away). You’ll find Sirius, another red giant and also known as ‘the dog star’ in various mythologies as well – actually Sirius has an invisible twin and is thought to be circling a huge black hole – it seems confirmed now that each galaxy likely has a giant black hole at it’s epicenter – very cool.And remember, if there’s life on this planet, there’s almost certain to be much life elsewhere in the universe – and who can say how many advanced civilizations far beyond our own? To calculate the possibilites, google the Drake Equation – you can even put in your own numbers.Now tell me again – why is God so concerned with one tiny little planet? Or have all those hypothetical advanced civilizations scattered throughout over 100 billion galaxies also got religion?

  • Arminius

    Mr Mark,Give it a rest. You said, “What an ass you are, Spidey. You’re an engineer you say? Give my regards to Thomas the Tank Engine and Mr Conductor!”Calling Spidey an ass was a kindness. But…George Carlin was one of those conductors. Do not degrade a good kid’s show by equating it to Spidey. Please.

  • Paganplace

    Ah, Arminius, he’s just repeating what he learned in the ‘Creation Science’ museum, and not understanding why it don’t work outside. :)Course, his claiming to be an engineer is kinda scaring me. :)

  • perspective

    The Betelgeuse/Sirius post was mine – I have to own up.

  • Rebecca Thompson

    Fate, you got it all wrong. God doesn’t put people in Hell. Hell is a place void of God. People put themselves there, by choice. The fear is your own. Don’t put the blame you feel for your own actions on God and say it’s His fault you fear.You fear things you don’t understand. And you sound very afraid even now. People who have died and returned from the dead, clinically dead!, aren’t afraid to die ever again. They’ve been there. Yes, even the Atheists now know. Go read what they have to say before you demand what the truth really is. You might want to think about what it is and why it is, you’re trying so desperately to convince others of a Godless world. If there’s nothing to believe in, you have absolutely no reason to be concerned about what they believe.Your explanations give no explanation to the signs made to this world. Go look up “Incorruptable Saints” and explain that one too while you’re at it. There’s much you do not know.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Arminius -I have kids, so I know that Carlin was one of the Conductors, as was Ringo Starr for the first year of the series.BTW – if Spidey soils his pants with his brains, it might explain his obsession with flies…

  • Fate

    Arminius, My ancestory is all over the northern european map, but mostly the county Cork/Claire part of Ireland. The rest is German/Norweigen.I’m heading to bed, my daughter wants the computer, so you know I have to leave…Good luck with spidey. At least tonight he admitted he didn’t know something. The truth might set him free, time will tell.

  • Arminius

    Hi, Paganplace,Actually, Spidey’s claim to be an engineer puzzles me. What kind? There are many. Perhaps he is a ‘Sanitation Engineer’ – i.e. a garbageman.

  • smi2le

    If they’ve bad they are sentenced to attend a Unitarian church everyday for eternity.

  • smi2le

    If they’ve bad they are sentenced to attend a Unitarian church everyday for eternity.

  • spiderman2

    Fate, instead of talking about errors in the Bible, try to understand the kind of science you’re believing. Im an Engineer and I read the science that you’re talking about. Some are correct but many are just false.Based on “your science”, please explain to me the meaning of “Natural Selection” not by words but by equations like they do in explaining gravity, bernoulli effect, special relativity, heat transfer, amperes, half life, etc.It will serve you well if you know that VIRTUAL REALITY OR ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE are run by equations and not just WORTHLESS WORDS.Even sounds have GRAPHIC EQUALIZERS derived from equations. Im sick and tired of the TRASH that I hear. Please just show the equations so I can make a model out of it.Don’t you get tired spewing trash?

  • FH

    Amy and Mr. Mark,You both seem to have an amazing amount of free-time to bash the believers…why is it so important to you?Clearly, no minds are going to be changed here.I don’t think naturalism or creationism are going to be proved in our lifetime, so I’m going to go with the one that provides me comfort and hope. That seems a reasonable and rational position…I honestly don’t see how your view is any more likely. And before you try and dazzle me with your brilliance…I’ve read Stenger and Dawkins, and they probably covered all your retorts.So, get some sleep, you two have had a long day.

  • Arminius

    Reasonable(?) not hateful: Your arguments make little sense. You need to fill in the gaps, and elaborate, if you hope to get anywhere with them.As far as intellect goes – I am a believer, and I know Mr Mark is an atheist. But his intellect beats the hell out of yours six ways from next Tuesday. Read his posts again.And, oh, yeah. You approve of waterboarding? So, then – and I mean this! – what would Jesus do?I don’t really expect an answer.

  • FRIENDOBILL

    Wow. Pretty heady discussions around a dead guy who told a lot of fart jokes!But continue, please. The comment thread on a two-day old blog post concerning a dead comedian is the perfect place to clear up these issues.

  • Tommy Mack

    Pastor Greg:You seem moderately intelligent. How can you honestly believe in something no sober person has ever seen before. That “mystery of faith” thing is the biggest cop out, so don’t give me that one.Wouldn’t it be logical to say that religion was created to control a mass of weak-minded and frightened people and that hallucinogens played a major part in early man’s beliefs?

  • Paganplace

    “You’ll find Sirius, another red giant and also known as ‘the dog star’ in various mythologies as well – actually Sirius has an invisible twin and is thought to be circling a huge black hole – it seems confirmed now that each galaxy likely has a giant black hole at it’s epicenter – very cool.”Well, a little correction, here: Sirius is a main sequence star, not a red giant, …Type A1. Sirius B is a white dwarf, invisible to the naked eye, yes, but observable to a good telescope. Sirius is so bright cause it’s so *close* to us, relatively speaking.

  • spiderman2

    Perspective wrote “Wow, you’re into astrology too?”Stars doesn’t always mean astrology. Don’t try interpreting it coz it will only show your ignorance.What’s next, horoscope? You and Fate should talk to each other. I can’t bear to hear more trash anymore. It’s like watching a movie spiderman but what is being shown is “gone with the wind”. It’s so far off.c ya later guys

  • Arminius

    Mr Mark,Of course we don’t have the evidence for the historical Jesus that we have for Washington. Paul C really blundered into that one, and you made a great argument.But… that does not make Jesus a fiction. It would seem that you’re letting your feelings about religion get the better of you again. It just means we have no direct proof. We have a lot of indirect proof. I am not a deep enough student of history to elaborate on this – I wish to hell I were.With respect,Arminius

  • Paganplace

    “Based on “your science”, please explain to me the meaning of “Natural Selection” not by words but by equations like they do in explaining gravity, bernoulli effect, special relativity, heat transfer, amperes, half life, etc.”‘Natural Selection’ isn’t a single physical phenomenon. You can describe every physical phenomenon *involved* with equations, and even chart the statistics with equations, …in fact, you can simulate and model it, if watching it in action doesn’t do the job for you, (Like, for instance, when people don’t take their full courses of antibiotics and end up breeding drug-resistant strains of TB, for instance.)

  • Pam

    Amy wrote:LOL – this is the kind of thought I’ve always had when someone who’s just, say, won an Olympic Medal dedicates it to his recently dead [fill in the blank] and says something like “I know (s)he was watching…”How creepy is that? Even in the bathroom??

  • spiderman2

    Just a single equation. Can I have one please? NOT A SINGLE EQUATION BECAUSE IT DOES NOT EXIST.Here is something you can play around like toddlers. Forget about science and engineering.NS=Nat Sel = monkey + (stupidity)EXP(infinity) = human {Darwin Kind}

  • Fate

    spiderman2 wrote: “Fate, instead of talking about errors in the Bible, try to understand the kind of science you’re believing. Im an Engineer and I read the science that you’re talking about. Some are correct but many are just false.”You say that without qualification. Can you give an example of a science that is false and show why it is false without saying it is false because it does not agree with the bible?spiderman2 wrote: “Based on “your science”, please explain to me the meaning of “Natural Selection” not by words but by equations like they do in explaining gravity, bernoulli effect, special relativity, heat transfer, amperes, half life, etc.”Look up the “Price Equation” or single locus and multilocus selection models. The amount of math involved in natural selection and evolution will likely surprise you, and is just as well tested as the equations you mention from engineering. I’d be interested to hear what you think about Price’s equation.spiderman2 wrote: “It will serve you well if you know that VIRTUAL REALITY OR ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE are run by equations and not just WORTHLESS WORDS.”So. Your point? I would just add that religion is only run by worthless words with no equations. I’m not sure where you are going with this but your own words seem to show that religion is based solely on words while natural selection, like other sciences, is based on math and other scientific tools, and its result is as strong as the buildings an engineers math constructs.spiderman2 wrote: “Im sick and tired of the TRASH that I hear. Please just show the equations so I can make a model out of it.Again, read up on the Price equation, locus models, etc. There’s a lot of math you missed out on it seems.spiderman2 wrote: “Don’t you get tired spewing trash?”I certainly get tired of hearing how belief is truth. Why not just say black is white. Belief and truth are antithetical. They cannot be one in the same. Once a belief is proved, say through science, it stops being a belief. But faith is belief, not truth, and I am tired of hearing how faith is truth based solely on words.

  • B

    spiderman2:Please explain all weather patterns happening on Earth currently. But just use a single equation.You’re asking for something idiotic, and then calling people out when they can’t provide it.

  • Pam

    Believe wants something from the Bible that isn’t true? Here are just a few from Levitcus:”# The bible says that hares and coneys are unclean because they ‘chew the cud’ but do not part the hoof. But hares and coneys are not ruminants and they do not ‘chew the cud’. 11:5-6# Bats are birds to the biblical God. 11:13, 19# Four-legged fowls are abominations. 11:20# Be sure to watch out for those ‘other flying creeping things which have four feet.’ (I wish God wouldn’t get so technical!) I guess he must mean four-legged insects. You’d think that since God made the insects, and so many of them (at least several million species), that he would know how many legs they have! 11:23# God’s law for lepers: Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient’s right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 14:2-52″There are more – so many that it would strain this blog to list them all; but you can find them at skepticsannotatedbible.comRead your Bibles!

  • Pam

    “If it seems wrong, there’s always a reason for that. We may not know the reason but it has its own reason which sometimes man is not capable of discerning.”Oh, brother, this just says it all, doesn’t it?Reminds me that when I hear the term “religious apologist” I always get a mental picture of people apologizing profusely for the crazy things they believe.On another note, here’s another link for FH, who thinks that origin of life research is at a standstill:

  • Anonymous

    again with the premise that religion is based on fear- why is fear an invalid basis for any motivation- i didnt really expect much of an answer- but it is interesting that it seems to be so difficult- so i’ll answer my own question them.

  • spiderman2

    Pam wrote “Deal with it.” That after stating some funny fairy tale. For as long as it’s considered a FAIRY TALE, I can deal with that. If somebody would insist that Spiderman truly exists, that won’t be funny anymore. One should be careful of that person coz soon he/she could be wearing a suit and starts swinging between buildings like an APE.If they insist to play that kind of game then Spiderman2 is ready to play games with them. Now Showing : FICTIONAL SCIENCE(Evolution) vs. FICTIONAL CHARACTER(Spiderman)

  • BGone

    Your banner says “Under God” when you really mean “Under Religion.”If your comments don’t convince you that religion is a blight on mankind then see you mental health professional soon. Don’t you expect God is watching all this? Suppose you were God. Would you laugh or cry? Pleased is out of the question.Keep lying to yourselves folks hell ain’t half full yet but hurry or you might miss out. Keep your faith in religion and call it faith in God. And remember, God so loved you He sacrificed His only begotten son so you can come to His house, after you die of course.

  • Dr.R.P.

    “you have not explained why fear is an invalid basis for ANY motivation-”Not invalid, just not one that should be respected.Fears should be faced, not prayed to.

  • Pam

    Victoria,Possessing a cerebral cortex should allow us to use reason to rise above such emotions and deal with problems rationally, instead of emotionally.Emotions arise in the most primitive parts of our brains, and while they may sometimes be useful, and sometimes pleasant, it’s nice to be able to override them when it makes more sense to do so. It is, after all, what sets us apart from most of our fellow denizens of Earth (and a good thing for us, because it’s the absolutely only competitive advantage that we have).BTW, your posts are extremely annoying to read, with their random spacing and line breaks, and lack of capitals and punctuation.

  • Amy

    I have known many fundamentalists, and I think Numi hit the nail on the head – they have a very fragile and all-or-nothing approach. They see any challenge to their authority figure as a threat to their entire way of life. They also have a kind of selective memory loss when they hit something in the bible or their theology that contradicts something else they “know” to be true. The classic challenges they come up with when talking to or about atheists seem to come not from independent reflection, but from their pastors’ (or media celebrities’) assertions that they are especially smart for believing because if they didn’t then …..[insert insane mischaracterization of atheists or dystopian prediction here]

  • spiderman2

    Pagan, understand the concept of Big Bang theory. That way you would know what Im talking about. goodnite.

  • Paganplace

    I think the only big bang I hear right now is the implosion of someone’s pseudoscientific theories finally achieving sufficient vacuum to implode. :)

  • Amy

    Victoria, yes indeed I’ve mastered fear of death at least. I don’t want to die, but when I was on an MD-80 that lost an engine and had to make an emergency landing, I felt no desire to make any last-minute conversion “just in case.” I busied myself talking to the 12-year-old sitting next to me, whose parents weren’t on the plane. I figured I might only have 30 minutes left to my life (the time it took for us to approach our emergency airport) so I’d better make the best possible use of that time – by keeping this child from feeling fear or loneliness. I think that’s a much better use of what might have been my last few minutes of life than praying to some fairy-tale entity.And really, where did that question come from? I often wonder about the bizarre stuff that comes from believers. Atheists will post to blogs or talk in real life and it seems the religionists don’t pay any attention, just project their own fear what about the fallacies of their beliefs onto all atheists and come out with weird non sequiturs based on some assumption they hold in their own beliefs. We don’t have a catechism, ya know. We don’t have a set of questions that must be posed and requisite answers that must be swallowed.

  • Paganplace

    *setting down a book.* Ok, it’s officially late. :) Maybe, Spiderman, you ought to consider that rather than trying to explain away basically all of human knowledge in order to serve your attachment to the literalism of your book, …particularly badly, I might add, you might consider it’s your interpretation of your book, not the world, that needs rearranging. Night, everyone. :)

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Numi -Good post.However, most Xians that I know eventually get beyond the conflict and the questioning by compartmentalizing their beliefs. Yes, they may take it all literally for years, but once they can no longer deny the idiocy of Biblical literalism, they move on to compartmentalization.It starts with the “allegory v historical” argument, where any Biblical “truth” that is proved false simply traipses over into the “metaphor/allegory” column without missing a beat. Thus, the Bible’s “account” of creation becomes an allegory. A Biblical “day” is no longer a 24-hour day but a “God day” which could last anywhere from a micro-second to a billion years. This DESPITE the fact that the Bible clearly – CLEARLY – states that a “day” means one cycle of the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.Then, they move on to the world’s evils as listed in the OT. They go to Leviticus where they find god’s edicts against homosexuality, so they rail against the “unnatural evil.” At the same time, they compartmentalize and totally ignore the verses right next to the anti-gay verses which rail against wearing polyester, or that demand you stone your children to death if they sass back to you.Finally, they settles on Jesus and what a “unique and loving person” he was. Point out that Jesus sounds a lot like the pagan gods that were around at the time, and that his “love” includes a ton of verses wherein the “prince of peace” damns people to everlasting torture and advocates hating your family to fully love him, and the compartmentalization nears completing, usually through a) ending the discussion, or, b) accusing the person who pointed out the contradictions as being “mean and angry.”And on and on it goes, a virtual smorgasbord of creeds, tenets and beliefs that the merry Xian is free to pick from, choosing those strictures he chooses to believe are true, and ignoring and even discarding those he finds fault with…like divorce, gluttony and bearing false witness – all staples of the well-honed Xian lifestyle.Back at ya.

  • Mr Mark

    Fate writes:Spiderman2 wrote: “It is possible if the radius of the earth was smaller. Forget about the 6000 years. Focus instead on the time or the age of the earth when water can cover the whole of it.”And when was that? As someone else already pointed out, do you have any idea what shrinking the earth’s radius would mean?”But god is god and Spidey is an “engineer”…so…it’s entirely possible that god shrunk the radius of the Earth WITHOUT shrinking the diameter or circumference! Narny-narny, nyah-nyah. PROVED it!Too bad we atheists don’t understand engineering!Oh, one other thing: the Earth was formed out the cosmic debris that was floating around the solar system, eventually forming into a sphere. The Earth has actually been contracting for its entire existence, from a loose spiral of gases and solids millions of miles across to the sphere we’re all living and dying on today. In fact, the Earth continues to cool, and cooling objects contract. What the Earth DIDN’T do was to contract a ginormous amount for “the flood” and then ginormously expand back to its much larger size.Spidey – engineer and ass.

  • Pam

    “They see any challenge to their authority figure as a threat to their entire way of life.”To be fair, it’s not comfortable for *anyone* to change their worldview or way of doing things. It upsets the equilibrium. But there is a fundamental difference in the way people react when entrenched views are challenged.Some throw up the defenses, build fortifications, and haul out the weapons figuratively, one hopes) to defend their positions. Others may endulge in a few moments of bristling, but then they go in search – not of just things that support their present positions – but of the TRUTH. And if they find that they are wrong, they change their minds, no matter how uncomfortable that may make them in the beginning.Take, for example, our illustrious president’s pronunciation of “nuclear”. Surely, after all these years, *someone* has mentioned to him that it isn’t pronounced “nucular”. If no one has been courageous enough to speak truth to power (not even his wife?), then surely he’s noticed it in OpEd pieces or comedy routines, at the very least. But has he made any attempt to correct it? Nope, not GW. Circle the wagons! Lock and load!

  • E Favorite

    Fate says, “If religions were not based on fear (explicit and implicit), we would see people choosing religion like we see people choosing cars, “In cases I’m familiar with, where fear is not a factor, people do choose religion as if they’re choosing a car. They check out the music program, services for children, closeness to home, what particular do-gooder work the church is involved in, the social set, the prevailing political outlook and what the inclusion policy is for receiving communion (open to anyone or only to people baptized in that faith). “Church-shopping” is completely legitimate. People will even use that term when checking out churches and church governing boards will discuss how to make themselves attractive to church-shoppers. I once belonged to a church that welcomed skeptics. The rector was an open agnostic, who would say not hesitate to say that he didn’t believe in God. The parish was open to all – some believed, some didn’t. The liturgy and music was the standard Episcopal fare, but the sermons were pretty wide open.I wish more people would just drop belief in the supernatural, stop finding creative ways to compartmentalize their beliefs (as Mr Mark so aptly described) and recognized churches as the ethically-based social groups that they are, at their best.

  • E Favorite

    Fate says, “If religions were not based on fear (explicit and implicit), we would see people choosing religion like we see people choosing cars, “In cases I’m familiar with, where fear is not a factor, people do choose religion as if they’re choosing a car. They check out the music program, services for children, closeness to home, what particular do-gooder work the church is involved in, the social set, the prevailing political outlook and what the inclusion policy is for receiving communion (open to anyone or only to people baptized in that faith). “Church-shopping” is completely legitimate. People will even use that term when checking out churches and church governing boards will discuss how to make themselves attractive to church-shoppers. I once belonged to a church that welcomed skeptics. The rector was an open agnostic, who would not hesitate to say that he didn’t believe in God. The parish was open to all – some believed, some didn’t. The liturgy and music was the standard Episcopal fare, but the sermons were pretty wide open.I wish more people would just drop belief in the supernatural, stop finding creative ways to compartmentalize their beliefs (as Mr Mark so aptly described) and recognized churches as the ethically-based social groups that they are, at their best.

  • Brambleton

    Mr. Mark,You will find that the issue of Homosexuality also appears in the New Testament (see Romans, Song of Solomon, etc.). Therefore, as a Christian, rightfully disregarding the Leviticus law against eating shellfish does not also prohibit speaking out against homosexuality.Also, I’d be interested to know which Pagan belief system included the resurrection of the human body. You won’t find it. The Christian hope is completely unique in this feature.Finally, for my own reference, not sure what you meant in your last paragraph about Christians ignoring or simply discarding certain biblical mandates. Just looking for clarification.Thanks.

  • VICTORIA

    of course it would be ridiculous to compartmentalize any person- believer or non- pam- you are claiming to have the ability to rise above your emotions- fear has many functions- without it we would not have the sense to protect ourselves from danger- what a simplistic view of the richness of ones spiritual life- you to your beliefs and me to mine, with respect-i’ve known many athiests (including my parents) and never felt i had to elevate myself by demeaning them- we really weaken each other by such an approach- and belittling those with differing mindsets robs you of learning and growing in your own consciousness whatever that may be- while you are busy projecting bad manners onto so called christians etc.. (which i’m not)

  • Brambleton

    E Fav,If churches were merely social gathering places, like you suggest, where would judgment, discernment, and accountability come from? I guess we could convert certain churches to tents, where people could come and eat/socialize and be free of any discussion surrounding Christ, hope, or the Bible. Maybe that’s happening already, I don’t know.

  • Arminius

    I am puzzled by this fear in religion thing. Sure, fundies are motivated by fear of hell, but I would submit that their greater fear comes from the raw tribalistic us-vs-them attitude. Yet I think they are the exception, not the rule. I don’t see fear in the many Christians I know – or Jews for that matter. My spiritual and religious beliefs are not motivated by fear. Period. Fear has no place there at all. I have no concern about an afterlife, it is out of my hands.As for other beliefs, I see no fear in Paganism or Buddhism, for two examples.

  • Pam

    Victoria,Brambleton,Where would judgment, discernment, and accountability come from? How about parents, teachers, the law, and the inborn social rules given by natural selection?

  • Mr Mark

    Brambleton writes:”Mr. Mark,You will find that the issue of Homosexuality also appears in the New Testament (see Romans, Song of Solomon, etc.). Therefore, as a Christian, rightfully disregarding the Leviticus law against eating shellfish does not also prohibit speaking out against homosexuality.”Are you saying that Xians simply ignore any and all OT laws if they are not given a mention in the NT? Please clarify.Also, Jesus said the following:Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.Check me if I’m wrong, but Jesus seems to be saying very clearly here that the entire law of the OT is in effect “till heaven and earth pass.”Last I looked, heaven and earth have yet to pass. So, how do you reckon that the edict against eating shellfish is not in full force as “one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled?”BTW – please don’t offer the “Jesus fulfilled the law” routine, as Jesus HIMSELF said nothing about his death fulfilling the law. “Also, I’d be interested to know which Pagan belief system included the resurrection of the human body. You won’t find it. The Christian hope is completely unique in this feature.”Osiris was physically resurrected…except for his genitals. Now, did he have a “human” body? Probably not, as he was an Egyptian god. Carl Jung recognized this Egyptian prototype for Jesus when he wrote, “…the Christian era itself owes its name and significance to the antique mystery of the god-man, which has its roots in the archetypal Osiris-Horus myth.” (Jung: Man and His Symbols). “Finally, for my own reference, not sure what you meant in your last paragraph about Christians ignoring or simply discarding certain biblical mandates. Just looking for clarification.”OK, which of these NT mandates to you choose to ignore:”If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”Do you hate your family? Are you a disciple of Jesus?”So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.”Have you forsaken everything, sold everything you had and given it to the poor? If not, are you a disciple?BTW – as Jesus stated clearly that every law in the OT is operational “till heaven and Earth pass,” then I’d think the 600+ laws in the OT still need to be followed as well, wouldn’t you say? If you choose to eat shellfish while condemning homsexuality, are you not simply picking and choosing which laws Jesus has told you are in effect “Till heaven and earth pass,” because “one jot or one tittle shall IN NO WISE PASS from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.”Back at ya.

  • Brambleton

    Pam,Thank you for the link. I’ll dig further into what it has to say as I’m not in the custom of taking miscellaneous websites at their face value (especially those that look like the hardest part was cutting and pasting).Also, you said, “Where would judgment, discernment, and accountability come from? How about parents, teachers, the law, and the inborn social rules given by natural selection?”Parents? Ok, that’s a good one. But, for example, where exactly has been the accountability by parents in regards to child obesity? And don’t lie and say that you would hold one of your friends accountable for their child’s weight if he or she were obese. You wouldn’t do it. Period. And teachers? Are you kidding me? They are there to teach, not to raise your child. Good grief.

  • Mr Mark

    Let’s talk about this fear thing.If we remove fear from Xianity, then why be a Xian?The biggest fear people have is the fear of eternal suffering after their death. That’s an Xian belief that was advanced in spades by Gentle Jesus, meek and mild. OK. Let’s say that there is no hell or eternal suffering to fear. That it doesn’t exist. Wow, big relief for many!Well, what else would one have to fear outside of hellfire? Eternal separation from god? How can one fear what one doesn’t know anything about? That’s a fear that’s only a fear when weighed against the alternative, which is an eternity WITH god, and none of us have any idea about what that eternity would be like. Suppose god had really bad breath? Suppose his idea of a good time was making the fundamentalists sit through an Episcopal church service? Would that be an eternity one wished to hunker down for?What if I want to simply live out my short human life and return to the nothingness from whence I came, like the enemies of god did in the OT? What if I don’t want an eternity with god or hellfire without god? What if I just want nothingness? Should I “fear” hell, or will god grant me my wish to cease existing in any form whatsoever? Am I allowed to just cease to be, with no fear of hell or suffering?Seems to me that if the answer is “but, there IS a hell and there IS eternal suffering if you won’t believe in Jesus and accept him as your lord and saviour,” then you can NEVER remove the large element of fear that drives Xianity.Is it possible that Xians are saying I should NOT fear hell, even though that’s where Jesus said I was going for not believing in him? Are they saying I should look forward to my own eternal suffering, fearless and kinda giddy about the whole thing?What say you, Xians?

  • Pam

    Good grief, yourself, Brambleton.Teachers can’t teach judgment and discernment? A lot of people are wasting their time in college, then.And accountability for child obesity?? Is that the best you can do? Is GOD holding parents accountable for it? Will parents of overweight children go to hell?? Give me a break!

  • Arminius

    Hi, Mr Mark,Well, you’re on a roll, and you are a first-class debater to be sure. A learning experience, and a thought provoking one as well.Given my peculiar re-entry into Christianity (note spelling, lol), I can’t answer for the religion as a whole. All I know is that I do not have fear of hell. It simply just is not there. I don’t ever think about it. I have no explanation. Maybe I’m the exception that proves the rule. But also, I neither see nor hear fear in my church. All I see and hear is joy.Your ‘compartmentalization’ discussion was good. Yes, of course any thinking Christian has to do that. It is a direct offspring of the very necessary ability to categorize what we perceive so that we can try to make some kind of order out of it. Seems to me scientists do something similar, as far as thinking processes go.All the best,Arminius

  • Mr Mark

    Arminius -Thanks for the reply.Interesting that you don’t believe in hell as Jesus sure as hell did.Here’s a thought: there’s an afterlife, but no fire-n-brimstone hell. The believers end up in heaven with god and Jesus, which is just splendid. They end up in one of the many rooms in the mansion. Perhaps they even get the 72 virgins (the rooms and virgins raise a question: why does the Bible rail against materialism while on Earth…while promising material rewards once one gets to heaven?)!What if there’s also an afterlife for non-believers, but there’s no suffering or torture? What if separation from god is the delimiter? What if non-believer eternity is just sort of bland? You get a computer, but no updates to the software? You get to watch all the DVDs you want? Most non-believers wouldn’t think that was so bad, would they? Even if the believers were pissed that the non-believers didn’t receive their comeuppance.Whaddayathink?

  • Pam

    A page about Mithra, citing sources:

  • Arminius

    Mr Mark,WhaddaIthink? Well, not much about your two scenarios. Any afterlife is by definition undefined, like what was going on before the Big Bang. (Yes, I know, that could change!) Many Christians are puzzled, I suppose, by my attitude. They expect me to buy into the whole enchilada. No cigar, guys. Because of the spiritual place I am coming from I am examining Christianity for whatever truth and wisdom is there; I reserve the right to ‘cherry pick’, and critics can shut the f*** up. I am on a journey, and refuse to be shackled by dogma. And, may I remind all again, I do not claim that my path, or any other, is the only true one.

  • E Favorite

    Brambleton – first of all, Song of Solomon is in the OT – I’m surprised no one caught that before now.Secondly, I said ETHICALLY-BASED social groups. ethics come from lots of places besides religion – family, schools, countries, the workplace, athletics. Ethics are human – religion is not needed for ethics.Now to Arminius – I can’t really believe that you find similarities between religious compartmentalizing and what scientists do in their thinking processes. Religious compartmentalizing involves keeping separate ideas that clash with each other and cannot be explained logically. Seems to me, when scientists find clashing or seemingly illogical ideas, they try to figure out what’s going on – not keep them separate and avoid thinking about it.Explain please.

  • Arminius

    E Favorite,A just question. I thought I did explain, but I guess not. If I ‘compartmentalize’ the two creation stories in Genesis as metaphorical myths, does that ensnare me in a contradiction? All I am doing is saying, ‘OK, that is interesting but not worthy of further consideration. Let the search continue.’ I am under no obligation to buy into the whole game there. Generalities are of no use here.

  • Arminius

    Hi, Mr Mark!Thank you! That is high praise indeed, and I am actually moved.All the best,Arminius

  • Pam

    “…first of all, Song of Solomon is in the OT – I’m surprised no one caught that before now.”Good catch, EFave. And Romans is from Paul, who never met Jesus or heard him speak. (Yeah, yeah, I know – he had a “vision”. Most of us call that a “dream”.)So nothing in the gospels about homosexuality, eh, Brambleton? Guess you’ll have to give up railing against the gays while you lunch on crab cakes.

  • Brambleton

    Pam,Good grief indeed! It’s not so much the names I will need to read more about, although I was intimately unfamiliar with each, it is the language being used. As I’m sure you are already well aware, words we use today in the English do not necessarily mean the same thing as they were used in their native language thousands of years ago.For example, the word RESURRECTION in its Greek, Latin, or other equivalent was NEVER used to mean life after death. It was used to denote new bodily life AFTER whatever sort of life after death there might be.I think you will find that most modern writing continues, quite misleadingly, to use the word RESURRECTION as a virtual synonym for life after death.Secondly, I think you’ll find that most professors in college are the complete opposite of judgment. They teach the fundamental principle that truth is relative, which is absolutely absurd. But, it is what it is.Finally, my obesity example was just that – an example. I used it to reflect the point that you are unlikely to find parents holding one another accountable in a non-faith setting. I didn’t say anything about H*ll or that God hated parents with fat kids. Try staying on point.

  • spiderman2

    You guys believe evolution and talk about Big Bang Theory and YET YOU DON’T KNOW THAT THE UNIVERSE STARTED FROM NOTHING?You don’t know that the earth started as a pea or marble?That is the main difference if a person is just a simple reader and not an ENGINEER. You guys don’t understand anything. It just shows that your mouths are much larger than your brains. Pea brains you have. But what is worse is that that pea brains of yours could send you to hell.Ignorance is not bliss. Go try kitty a lion. Hello kitty LION. Your ignorance and denial of Hell will suck you into it.Im not saying I like you to go there but your ignorance will.Related to the Big Bang theory is Einstein E=mc2. That’s the main reason why the theory is plausible. I don’t want to say this but ,zzzz, you guys, FATE,PAM, ARMINIUS, DR RP, MR. MARK, who else did i miss? You guys are “non-recoverable ” IDIOTS. Guard!!! Please pick these people up. Lock them up in an IDIOT SECTION of WApo, puleeeasee!!

  • Pam

    Thanks, Mr Mark. I had been to that site before, but forgotten it. Excellent. :)

  • Arminius

    Hi, Spidey,When is your new movie, “Honey, I Shrunk the World!” coming out? Are you going to play God or Noah?

  • Pam

    Greek, Brambleton? You mean the same language that most of the Bible came to us in?And…”you are unlikely to find parents holding one another accountable in a non-faith setting”Oh, come ON!

  • Mr Mark

    Spidey rants about marbles and peas,

  • spiderman2

    Pam wrote “And Romans is from Paul, who never met Jesus or heard him speak.”Paul said, “Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.” (Acts 26:15)It’s not a vision. That event turned him blind because of the intense light with the voice. BRAINS! Use your brains people coz it is sucking you downward to hell if you don’t. God calls people FOOLS those who are going to hell. Does that sound familiar? IDIOTS AND FOOLS? Don’t they sound the same? Idiots.

  • Arminius

    Spidey,Oh, PLEASE tell us about your movie!!!

  • spiderman2

    Arminius, The earth NEVER shrank Please pick up your brain. When will you use your brain? Your words are so idiotic that it’s so painful to the ear and in many cases to my brain. Im having a headache with you due to the idiocy you have.WHO SHRANK YOUR BRAIN? Your beer? Please take less of those. Your brains are drying up.Again, the EARTH NEVER SHRANK!!! IT’S YOUR BRAIN DUDE!! YouR “scientist” companion FATE shrank hers too. There, that would soothe you. At least you’re not alone. You have a shrunk-brain “scientist” by your side.GUARD!!!! Please tie this person by the neck and lock him up in that IDIOT SECTION puleaeeaase!!

  • Socrates is Mortal

    Come on Spidey we want to hear about the movie.Movie! Movie! Movie! …

  • SOCRATES IS MORTAL

    MR MARK said: “One of the best sites that covers all of this is “Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth,” found here: Now that I have stopped whining for Spidey’s Movie, I just wanted to thank MR MARK for the link to POCM. Very interesting reading.Thanks MR MARK

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Socrates -The POCM site is good. It would be better if the owner cleaned up the many typos one finds there. Even in this internet age, sloppy typing and lack of editing mitigates against an author’s authority, don’t you think?

  • SOCRATES IS MORTAL

    Dear Mr MarkRereading his own posts frantically looking for previously unnoticed typos…Yes I agree. Typos and bad formatting distract from understanding the content of the message. While I would like to think that I can focus on substance over form, distracting form often makes me skip on to the next comment or even dismiss the writer altogether.

  • Pam

    Spidey, sweetheart, when the radius of the Earth was smaller it was entirely molten and under heavy meteor bombardment. There was no water. There was no Noah. There were no trees to build an ark with. There were no animals to put on that ark.

  • Dr.R.P.

    Spidey:”This faith section are full of idiots.”Your presence here is proof of that…

  • Dr.R.P.

    Mr. Mark:Great Poem!

  • spiderman2

    Guys, have you wondered why everytime there was an old civilization discovered, the words UNEARTH, EXCAVATION, DIGGING always appear.? Civilizations were already existing in this earth even if the radius was smaller than what we have now. Just a few meters of this earth’s radius deducted would sink this whole earth of ours in water. Remember 3/4 of the surface of this globe is already water. Multiply that whole area to a few meters of height, that is how big the remaining land will have to contain. In other words, it would be all covered with water.STUDY ENGINEERING GUYS SO YOU CAN KNOW THESE THINGS. It might save you from burning in Hell too. Don’t spend too much time on some websites where their authors have no engineering background. They too are a bunch of fools.Remember also that these evolutionist “scientists” are not ENGINEERS so these people are as ignorant as you are.

  • Arminius

    Gee, Spidey,For a so-called engineer (sanitation engineer?), you sure have trouble with the reality of numbers.A FEW METERS of water to cover the earth? Duh…. what about the mountains? If ya gotta cover Mt Everest, ya needs over 5 MILES of water over everything. This calculates to about 100 million cubic miles of water.A few meters…. man, you are the comic! Thanks for the entertainment.

  • Pam

    “Guys, have you wondered why everytime there was an old civilization discovered, the words UNEARTH, EXCAVATION, DIGGING always appear.? Civilizations were already existing in this earth even if the radius was smaller than what we have now. Just a few meters of this earth’s radius deducted would sink this whole earth of ours in water. Remember 3/4 of the surface of this globe is already water. Multiply that whole area to a few meters of height, that is how big the remaining land will have to contain. In other words, it would be all covered with water.”Incredible. This is a new low even for you, Spidey. So you think that ancient civilizations have been buried by ENTIRELY NEW MATERIAL?? And where, pray tell, did this new stuff come from?Have you ever had a yard with stepping stones? Periodically, you have to lift them and put more dirt underneath, or they’ll sink beneath the lawn. Earthworms. And the dirt you put under them to raise them again isn’t new – it has be taken from somewhere else.Do you know that mountains wear down and rivers deposit sediment where it wasn’t before? Do you know that the wind picks up dust from dry places and drops it elsewhere?Do you know that volcanoes pour new rocks onto the surface, and that crustal subduction zones suck old rocks under and remelt them?It’s basic geology, Spidey. Get your ignorant nose out of Revelations and go check out a book.

  • spiderman2

    For every 1 meter less of the earth’s radius, it means it will have to contain 361,132,000 million cubic meters of water. E=mc2. That formula translate energy into mass. Slowly but surely some of the sun’s energy are being converted into mass. You may not notice it but eveyday, the earth is a bit bigger than what it was yesterday.Slowly but surely, God’s judgment is coming. Arminius, Christ believes in the flood. So why do you call yourself Christian if your belief is opposite? Are you really an idiot?

  • paul c

    I disagree that the general motivating factor of religion is fear. I think most people honestly just think there is a God. I would bet very few believe in God because they are afraid of going to hell if they don’t. Because really, that’s no belief at all. And I think most people attempt to do the right things in their lives, not because they are afraid of punishment if they don’t, but because they have an innate sense of right and wrong and feel compelled to follow it. (Catholics call this the natural law). After all, as the atheists among us a quick to point out, morality is not limited to those that practice religion. The corallary to that is that good behavior is not driven by fear of damnation (at least for most). And neither is religious faith.

  • Arminius

    Spidey,You have not yet managed to explain anything in terms anyone with a reasonably well functioning brain can understand. Please do keep up the verbal comedy.Meanwhile, try to explain where that water came from, and where did it go, and what really happened to the radius of our planet.(sigh), I guess it will be a long wait…

  • spiderman2

    Paul C. wrote “Catholics call this the natural law”.Say that to the priests who molest coz they just follow that natural law. Paul C. , please don’t preach catholicism here. Don’t give these atheists more ammunition. Catholicism is as ignorant as these atheists. Most of these people were former catholics. Please don’t bother to reply. I have really no time discussing with you right now.

  • Fate

    Mr Mark,Spiderman2 wrote: “It is possible if the radius of the earth was smaller. Forget about the 6000 years. Focus instead on the time or the age of the earth when water can cover the whole of it.”And when was that? As someone else already pointed out, do you have any idea what shrinking the earth’s radius would mean? I mean, spidey, just listen to yourself. In order to maintain your belief you are requiring the earth’s radius to have shrunk, water now covers the smaller earth, after 40 days and nights of rain (which is what the bible says made the water rise, not the earth shrinking) the land reappears meaning the earth expanded back to its original shape in your model, the animals get off, and the KANGAROOS STILL CANNOT MAKE IT TO AUSTRALIA!And do you realize the orbital changes that would have occured had such a shrinking happened, and the tectonic upheavals, air pressure changes and other things that would have been much more astonishing and deadly, and presumably recorded in the bible, that would make the mention of 40 days and nights of rain a footnote. And once the shrinking happened, what energy pumped the earth back up and what is keeping the earth pumped up? Spiderman2 wrote: “That is how one should read the bible if he/she is interested on science. Don’t focus on what errors you can find in it. Focus on what light or breakthrough it can give you.”Well that is the first thing that you have said that makes any sense. This is what most people do, including myself. I just put the bible up there with Aesop’s Fables, another source of enlightenment. Reading either one and determining the good in both does not require belief in a God, nor does anyone need the promise of heaven or the fear of hell to make them good people. Religions have caused as much misery as they have healed. Atheists focus on the good, ignore the bad created by religion, and seem to be better people based on the demographics of the prison population, which is filled with more christians percentage-wise than the general population. That does not make the good in the bible bad, it just means christianity is not the answer for world peace.Spiderman2 wrote: “It’s a very intelligent book. One could never outsmart it. If it seems wrong, there’s always a reason for that. We may not know the reason but it has its own reason which sometimes man is not capable of discerning.”Now why would there be a reason for putting kangaroos in Australia, fossils in the ground, make radiometric dating be wrong, and a God who fails to appear except in dreams and to the insane, except the occassional algea covering an underpass wall? If the book is intelligent, why does it not say the earth’s radius shrank? Why does it not even mention the earth is round? Or a planet? Or that it revolves around the sun. You say there is always a reason for the bible being wrong. Wow, nothing says “fundie” more than that. Fate – an engineer

  • VICTORIA

    amy you misunderstood- no assumptions are inherent in the question, nor projections. and it canot be a non-sequitur, weird or otherwise, as no conclsuion was reached. my point was and still unanswered is this- i believe that psychology is also a soft science- my contention is, that one of the main complaints atheists (and you yourself just did it) is that all religion is based upon fear (and reward) as if this is somehow enough to invalidate it. fear itself exists- let’s start with that (overstated)idea- let us assume all religion is based upon fear- how does that fear discredit religion? it is the fear i am addressing- not religion- fear as a motivating factor is a valid premise- now we could debate as to the degree of fear or the singularity of it- but the contention that all religion is simplistically motivated by only fear- even if it is- (and i argue it is not) if that were the case, war itself would always be invalid- so unless you want to assert that war motivated by fear is always invalid-

  • Arminius

    Paul C,Your commentary on fear in religion was very well put. I don’t always agree with you, but on your recent post I am behind you on every word. C S Lewis had a good thing or two to say about natural law in “Mere Christianity”.Arminius

  • Dr.R.P.

    “so unless you want to assert that war motivated by fear is always invalid-”Bingo.

  • Pam

    “E=mc2. That formula translate energy into mass. Slowly but surely some of the sun’s energy are being converted into mass. You may not notice it but eveyday, the earth is a bit bigger than what it was yesterday.”OK, now I know you’re crazy.Paul C., We’re the only animal that knows for certain that it will die, and I think that’s more than some can handle.As far as most people just thinking that there’s a god – that might have been true of primitive people who had no other explanation for natural phenomena, but if you were able to raise a child today with a normal science education and never tell him about God, I don’t think such a concept would ever occur to him. God just isn’t a necessary part of the equation anymore.

  • paul c

    Spiderman 2:

  • spiderman2

    Arminius wrote “try to explain where that water came from, and where did it go, and what really happened to the radius of our planet.”If nobody else is reading your post, I won’t bother to answer you. I mean, your idiocy shows and it’s tiring talking to idiots. The water didn’t go anywhere. The bucket just got BIGGER. Pam wrote “OK, now I know you’re crazy”This is the main reason why you can’t talk to idiots. They call you crazy if they don’t understand what the rest of the scientific world already consider as fact. Have you heard of the phrase ATOMIC BOMB? That is the proof of that equation. c ya later guys. I’ll be back if I see a sane person again in this blog. Brains bigger than a pea. I bet you guys never even heard of the phrase : DIFFERENTIAL CALCULUS? I bet you don’t even know this : a(exp 2)=b(exp 2)=c(exp 2).Start studying those terms so at least the communication gap won’t that be very VERY HUGE. Introduce yourselves to numbers first.

  • E Favorite

    Paul C: “I would bet very few believe in God because they are afraid of going to hell if they don’t.That recent Pew study showed 75% of believers thought there was a heaven and 60% thought there was a hell. There are all sorts of interpretations here and lots of questions.I suspect that Heaven gets more votes because it’s a nicer idea. So I suspect more people believe in God because of the prospect of going to heaven rather than the fear of going to hell. Another way to look at it, is that people may have a fear of not going to heaven – i.e. that there is no afterlife. That’s different from eternal damnation, but still a pretty big deal and a reason to cling to believing in a system that provides that option.All speculation, of course.

  • Arminius

    Spidey,Oh, God, don’t stop! The laughter continues endlessly. Thank you for cheering up my evening.”The bucket just got bigger…”. Oh, really? Please explain that in terms of the expansion of the diameter of the earth. Did water, suddenly appearing, just turn to rock? Or to rock candy? You really need to go on Comedy Central. You can be serious and make a million.

  • Fate

    Victoria,Your husband is right, fear drives everything. Satisfaction is nothing more than having overcome something you feared, failure usually. Even altruism is fear based. One typically hears that they just could not stand by and watch the person they saved die. It was not the intention to do good but the fear of seeing them die that made them take the action.If religions were not based on fear (explicit and implicit), we would see people choosing religion like we see people choosing cars, and we would see them equally spread throughout the world, but we do not. We see people choosing what they were brought up with and what their friends believe. As for your example of war, people DO fear war. That is why most of the world is usually at peace. It is the fear of something else (starving or being attacked in the future for example), that drives some to wage war. Fear after 911 drove us into war and fear was used by our president to gain support on attacking Iraq by building up a fear of imminent attack, even though none existed. Fear drives everything and it is our efforts to reduce the fears that drives society, and religions.I would add, the more unstable religions tend to impose fear more. Islam is probably one of the top fear based religions, with execution for leaving the faith as a tenet of the faith. Add to that the promise of paradise and you have some pretty good reasons not to leave Islam. Judeao-Christianity only has heaven and hell, pretty good carrot and stick, but not as fear-based as Islam, though ask any Jew who married outside the religion what they had to go through and you will likely hear expulsion by friends and family. Then you look at the eastern religions, which have little fear behind them yet have been maintained for millenia. In other words, the level of fear a social structure needs to impose is inversely related to its stability. That is why the Communists and tyrrants use fear to maintain their grip on power, and why they did not last very long because people do not like living with fear.

  • Anonymous

    FATE wrote:”If religions were not based on fear (explicit and implicit), we would see people choosing religion like we see people choosing cars, “Quite the contrary, we would see religion vanish.

  • spiderman2

    Paint a small ball then paint a large ball. You would need a bigger bucket to paint the larger ball. Bigger radius equals larger spherical surface. Brains arminius, brains. Go buy more of it at your nearest hardware.

  • Arminius

    Spidey,It is all too apparent that you need professional help. I won’t bother you any more. There are better avenues to pursue comedy. But you are truly a tragedy. I am not trying to insult you, I honestly believe that you are very, very troubled.

  • lepidopteryx

    Spidey may may be onto something with the shrinking earth hypothesis.What if the rain God sent was hot, and a large portion of the earth’s surface was planted with cotton or flax? Not to mention all the sheep that didn’t makeit onto the ark. All those fibers contracting all at once could have encased the earth like a big wet cocoon, and as they kept contracting, smushed it into a smaller size. On second thought, perhaps Spidey IS all wet.

  • spiderman2

    Hell is real guys. I may be calling you idiots but I don’t want anybody spending their next life there. I really wish there is no hell but it’s idiocy to deny it. God doesn’t lie. I can’t comprehend the concept of hell but God doesn’t lie. Hell exist. Be careful with your lives that you won’t be ashamed when you finally meet Him.Failure is not an option. You fail, you burn. Believe it.”My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:” (Hebrews 12:5)That chastening is to instill fear. Fear is good to make a person sane. All these atheists don’t fear. Wrong Move.

  • Arminius

    Let’s not forget to see Spidey’s upcoming movie, “Honey, I Shrank the World!”, coming soon to a fundie church near you.

  • Arminius

    Mr Mark, well met,”I have kids, so I know that Carlin was one of the Conductors, as was Ringo Starr for the first year of the series.It was through my kids that I learned about Thomas. We all enjoyed it, both Carlin and Ringo. Also, I have a lifelong love affair with steam locomotives….”BTW – if Spidey soils his pants with his brains, it might explain his obsession with flies…”Good one! LOL!!! I can smell it from here…. yuk!Arminius

  • Paganplace

    Actually, I’m pretty sure it was determined he’s way too young for that. He certainly hasn’t demonstrated any knowledge of the field or even seemed to say it before. I think he must have just decided he was one yesterday.

  • Mr Mark

    Arminius writes:”Let’s not forget to see Spidey’s upcoming movie, “Honey, I Shrank the World!”, coming soon to a fundie church near you.”I hope the movie includes an appearance by Jason Alexander as George Costanza. Who better to scream, “There was shrinkage! There was shrinkage!”?

  • Mr Mark

    Spidey sez:”You guys should stop using the word evolution coz it’s not a proven science.”But it is – proven, reproved and settled science. Science. Settled. Science.Your ignorant posts can’t alter the facts, Spidey. Go back to your Lionel set and your creationist website. Let us know when those plastic trees arrive for your RR town, Mr Engineer!CHOO CHOO TIME! BRAIN FROM SOIL! BRAIN TO SIT ON! SOILING PANTS WITH BRAINS! I LOVE FLIES! MR ENGINEER MAN!I bet William Shatner could sing the bejesus out of that verse!

  • Paganplace

    Anyway, let’s not forget the *real* scary bit, here, what Spidey says, Fundies actually teach each other. How people can be simultaneously so indignant about being primates, and so attached to throwing poop in the laboratory, I’ll never know. :)

  • numi

    For a while now I have been examining the ‘fundamentalist’ mind-set. Perhaps because I find it so perplexing.At least one possible explanation became clear the other night while watching the ‘gay adoption’ episode of 30 Days. As the episode came to an end, I realized that Kati (the adventurous Mormon subject of the show) was deeply fearful of being wrong. Hence her adamant refusal to even consider any alternative view to her own. She readily admitted that her hosts were ‘good’ parents and that they meant well but that her ‘morality’ forbade her approval of their actions. Hmmm.So how is it possible to hold two opposing views in your head at the same time? To me that seems a form of mental illness. Then all became clear.For Kati to question even one aspect of her religion would be to question all. To change one position would be to hold all positions examinable, changeable, potentially incorrect – and wrong. And if even one position was seen as wrong, her entire life, constructed on her unshakeable morality, would be proven wrong.It may be easy to portray religionists as mindless, thoughtless sheep but that is merely a symptom of the real problem – the deep fear of being wrong. Which means, of course, that change, progress, anything that challenges the status quo is to be feared and reviled.So I have come to view fundamentalism as not so much stupidity as a personality disorder. A fundie will always seek an authority to follow. They just can’t help it. That’s the scary part because, as we know, there will always be some tin-pot dictator around somewhere more than willing to act as that authority.

  • spiderman2

    Mr.mark wrote “But it is – proven, reproved and settled science. Science. Settled. Science.”Since when? Can skeletons prove that the brains of that UNKNOWN and MISSING “common ancestor” EVOLVED to be a human brain? What is the science behind it? What’s the scientific phenomenon, the equation, the process? Where? It’s all magic because a THE GREAT MAGICAIN SAID SO. Charles Darwin, the ape-looking guy who wants to get back at God bacause he might have thought God made him look like an ape.

  • spiderman2

    Fate wrote “Could all the water on earth completely cover all its mountain peaks, as the bible says happened.”It is possible if the radius of the earth was smaller. Forget about the 6000 years. Focus instead on the time or the age of the earth when water can cover the whole of it. That is how one should read the bible if he/she is interested on science. Don’t focus on what errors you can find in it. Focus on what light or breakthrough it can give you. It’s a very intelligent book. One could never outsmart it. If it seems wrong, there’s always a reason for that. We may not know the reason but it has its own reason which sometimes man is not capable of discerning.

  • Pam

    (Engaging Spidey against my better judgment):Actually, yes indeedy. The skull preserves the brain case, with the shape of the brain clearly imprinted. One can follow the development of frontal lobes and cerebral cortex through time.This is how we know that Cro Magnon man had all of the “hardware”, but little of the “software” of present day humans. Much like you.BTW, the “missing” common ancestor can be pretty well inferred, given that chimps and bonobos are our closest relatives, and that gorillas split off before they did. Since gorillas look quite similar to chimps and bonobos in many ways, we can be pretty sure that the common ancestor was quite chimp-like. Deal with it.

  • Paganplace

    “hat is your limited experience with what appears to be fundamentalist christians-Well, Victoria, I meant that in the sense of *anyone* trying to get you to convert to that worldview. You can say that the ‘carrot and stick’ of Heaven and Hell aren’t important, in those religions, but it’s an awfully big detail to sweep under the rug when it’s *there.* Structurally-inherent to the notion of running out and converting people in the first place. Yeah, there’s that motivation, underlying, and it’s really a prime justification for most of the abuses in that sort of religion, not to mention the fact that when it comes down to brass tacks, people with religions of our own that do fine for us, when a monotheist comes along trying to get us to convert or obey, hear things degenerate pretty quickly to ‘Cause God says this, offers this, threatens this,’ Trust me, my experience in these matters is *hardly* limited. I can barely open my mouth in a lot of places without someone telling me all about it. :)

  • spiderman2

    Fate wrote “I’m heading to bed, my daughter wants the computer, so you know I have to leave…”You should allow your daughter more computer time. You’re spreading too many falsehoods already. Finally , I found sanity in your post. That makes me think another meaning for love. “Love means sanity”. Your love for your daughter makes you sane. I hope you don’t infect her with your junk ideas.

  • Amy

    Mr Mark you make excellent points. To the religionists who claim that we atheists exaggerate the appeal to fear, I’d point to the many posts in this thread that insist that Hell is real and that’s where George Carlin (and his fellow atheists) will be going.Because in the end, that’s all they really have. The idea that Christianity makes a person a better citizen? Wrong. The idea that it’s impossible to bring up children to be well-behaved and healthy without religion? Wrong. The idea that a person who is an atheist can’t possibly go their entire life without regretting that decision? …. wrong again. Their only chance to be “right” is to imagine anyone who rejects their fairy tales is being punished by their other fairy tales.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Karen -I have gone back and re-read the Carlin interview, and I disagree entirely with your assessment. especially when one takes his particular remarks about religion and reads them in the context of the entire interview.The atheist deathbed conversion to Xianity is one of the unfounded myths of your Americanized religion. There is absolutely no indication from Carlin in this interview that he felt he was approaching death. In fact, the interview closes with talk of the remodeling going on in his home, new material he was developing for a “There’s too much music” routine, and future plans to turn said material into another HBO special.As far as who Carlin liked and didn’t like, he makes clear around mid-interview that he has always liked individuals while disliking the mob mentality. This same theme runs through many of his routines over the years (people who knew Carlin well who I’ve seen interviewed on TV since his death have to a person said the Carlin was an extremely warm person throughout his life, and that his stage persona as a grouch was a bit of an exaggeration). He also speaks about how things need to be exaggerated in a stage performance if one is to reach 3,000 people at once.You are grasping at straws with the conjecture offered in your post. I would ask you to go back and re-read the entire thing again…and re-read it from the perspective that Carlin didn’t think he was “near death.” Gotta go.

  • Paganplace

    Well, I can see this thread’s been ticking along nicely all day. It’s not yer ‘Lord’ that’s being ‘chastened,’ here, Spidey, …it’s your bad ideas of science. Might want to learn to make that distinction. I mentioned a few of the things an engineer would know about, of which there’d be signs if the Earth had shrunk and then re-expanded to suit your narrative being literal. That’s before even getting into the geology, but clearly you must think geology is ‘garbage science,’ too, along with physics and anthropology, if you believe in your book being literal, or meant to be. As for Hells, well. Helpful suggestion, if you ever think you’re in one, best not be too attached to it being ‘real.’ Why, I should ask, are you willing to go to such absurd lengths just to *claim* ‘Hell is Real’ in a particular way? Obviously, you want to believe it takes that form so you can feel yourself to have some kind of *power* over it, and everyone else, whereas you ‘Savior’ seems to be in the business of, well, *saving people* from such illusions, anyway.Now, either he’s a sadistic son of a …unitary divinity, or, you’re not trusting him to do his job. That’s what I say. Of course, I don’t think I’m bound for *your* Hell just cause I …don’t live in that sort of universe, any more than I live in a world where rocks are all six thousand years old, and seems to have shrunk without breakage (Or angular shear at 12000 miles and hour, rotationally) at some point one day, just so a big rainstorm could enable a Bronze age dude to put the whole biome except for olive trees, unicorns, and presumably any aquatic creatures that could survive the sudden change in salinity…. in in a very heterosexual boat… that he knocked up in his backyard… That’s not ‘faith,’ Spidey. That’s something else.

  • Paganplace

    Oh, and, New Rule:”E=mc2. That formula translate energy into mass. Slowly but surely some of the sun’s energy are being converted into mass. You may not notice it but eveyday, the earth is a bit bigger than what it was yesterday.”People who think like that, or for that matter can’t pronounce ‘Nuclear’ …don’t get the hydrogen bombs.

  • Fate

    I agree with Mr Mark on Carlin. As one who watched him from the beginning, his 60s mentality, which abhored the mob mentality as expressed in the memorable 60s anti-war chant: “Think for yourselves and question authority”, thinking was a continual theme in his dialogs. He had routines, like the hippie dippie weatherman, sportscaster Biff Barf, etc, but it was his standup which I would call a dialog and got you to think. Certainly these were well rehersed and expression, timing, etc were well rehersed for maximal effect, but the material was certainly not something he disagreed with. He pointed out the hypocracy in society, which is always good for a laugh, except when you are the one committing the hypocracy, then it ain’t funny I guess. And religions are full of hypocracy. Carlin just took what many of us were thinking and said it on stage, with effect. I believe he died as he lived, having rejected his Catholic upbringing and the delusion of a God. What I think Carlin meant about religion giving God a bad name is that if you suppose there were a God, He must be sitting up there in heaven frowning on the way religions are going about worshiping him, by segregating their churches, keeping the majority of the offerings for the church with a tiny amount going to the poor, getting involved in politics, etc. The reason many turn away from religion is that after learning about Jesus you can no longer support the institution that worships him because it does not abide by His teachings. I think that is what Carlin was talking about (if that’s true George please bang on the roof three times :)BTW, this is not from Carlin but I heard it once on Comedy Central while flipping channels. I’m sure Carlin would have loved it. The comedian was talking about racism and said the following:

  • Pam

    “–> I’ll bite. Where does that come from?”Oh, probably from old TV shows featuring stereotypical Native Americans.The point was that you start out saying that the children of atheists can be just as good as those of believers, then finish by saying they’re more likely to end up as total degenerates. Methinks you’d better back this up with statistics if you can.Didn’t think so.

  • Brambleton

    Pam,”The point was that you start out saying that the children of atheists can be just as good as those of believers, then finish by saying they’re more likely to end up as total degenerates.” Actually, that’s not what I said and we’ll never have an honest debate/discussion if you don’t read what’s actually written. RIF – Reading is Fundamental. I used the term, “GREATER OPPORTUNITY”, which isn’t even close to “more likely to end up as total degenerates.” Unbelievable.An example of what I mean by “GREATER OPPORTUNITY”. Child A refrains from sex until he/she is married. Child B engages in ongoing sexual activity starting in college.Now, I don’t need a research study to tell me that Child A has a GREATER OPPORTUNITY of avoiding STD’s, unwanted pregnancies, HIV, abortions, etc., etc. That is not to say that Child B will experience any of those things either, but certainly, the door has been opened for such things to occur.

  • Pam

    “And now apparently leaves piled up to increase the size of the Earth in order for the water to have receded fourty days later? “Now, be fair, Paganplace – remember there was an extra week after the dove came back empty-handed.Or maybe it wasn’t the leaves in this case, but E=MC2 converting pure sunlight to rocks and soil , even though all that water must have been reflecting almost all of it. Come to think of it, that could only have happened during that last week, because before then, there were heavy clouds and rain – no sun.It’s a puzzler, for sure.Even more puzzling – after the ark landed and all of the animals were set free, didn’t the first few carnivore meals cause an awful lot of extinctions? And what were the herbivores eating?Curiouser and curiouser.

  • Anonymous

    Karen:Uh…, hang on,”– and I’m sure there’s no one like that. “(quoting what you wrote were Carlin’s words)That doesn’t sound like a believe to me…

  • Pam

    “And now apparently leaves piled up to increase the size of the Earth in order for the water to have receded fourty days later? “Now, be fair, Paganplace – remember there was an extra week after the dove came back empty-handed.Or maybe it wasn’t the leaves in this case, but E=MC2 converting pure sunlight to rocks and soil , even though all that water must have been reflecting almost all of it. Come to think of it, that could only have happened during that last week, because before then, there were heavy clouds and rain – no sun.It’s a puzzler, for sure.Even more puzzling – after the ark landed and all of the animals were set free, didn’t the first few carnivore meals cause an awful lot of extinctions? And what were the herbivores eating?Curiouser and curiouser.

  • Anonymous

    Karen:Uh…, hang on,”– and I’m sure there’s no one like that. “(quoting what you wrote were Carlin’s words)That doesn’t sound like a believer to me…

  • E Favorite

    This is begining to sound like the fundamentalist claim that the founding fathers intended America to be a Christian nation.

  • Mr Mark

    Karen-Carlin’s reflective nature was the source of his entire career. You’ve quoted nothing that indicates a near-to-death conversion/re-evaluation on his part. In fact, the last quote you posted from Carlin says all you need to remember about his non-beliefs:CARLIN: “I’m just a person who thinks some day you could find out. And I would know that whoever was there judging me — and I’m sure there’s no one like that. But if there was someone judging me, then I’d be fine. So I don’t even think about it or worry.”I think I’m done with this particular avenue of discussion.

  • Pam

    “An example of what I mean by “GREATER OPPORTUNITY”. Child A refrains from sex until he/she is married. Child B engages in ongoing sexual activity starting in college.Now, I don’t need a research study to tell me that Child A has a GREATER OPPORTUNITY of avoiding STD’s, unwanted pregnancies, HIV, abortions, etc., etc. That is not to say that Child B will experience any of those things either, but certainly, the door has been opened for such things to occur.”I read just fine, Brambleton. Now ‘splain me this: If “greater opportunity” doesn’t translate into actual statistical incidence, then why does it matter? It’s meaningless, and the point is moot. If I say that people who spend time around dogs have a “greater opportunity” of contracting canine distemper, but none actually do, then why should people avoid dogs?Show me statistics.

  • karen

    “I think I’m done with this particular avenue of discussion.”Sheesh, Mark. You’ve folded like a house of cards.

  • Pam

    “Sheesh, Mark. You’ve folded like a house of cards.”No he didn’t, Karen, he just realized that you’re going to see what you want to see regardless of the fact that it isn’t there.Come to think of it, that’s the religious in a nutshell, isn’t it?Not that Mr. Mark needs me to defend him…

  • Anonymous

    Karen:” “And I would know that whoever was there judging me — and I’m sure there’s no one like that. But if there was someone judging me, then I’d be fine.”He didn’t believe God was judgmental- but if he finds God is judgmental- he believes he would be judged favorably. “Yeah right, and you probably believe that Einstien was a believer also.I think putting in the full quote does not reduce my statement one bit. The only point he made with certainly was that there was no one around to judge him after death. You are just rationalising your beliefs, the same way believers do when they use the bible to justify their rediculous views on the universe.Look, just because you can’t imagine how someone can disbelieve in gods, that doesn’t mean it can’t happen. And I can tell you from personal experience that this “no atheists in foxholes” stuff is a load of BS. You do a diservice to Mr. Carlin by claiming that he really was a believer, in particular since he is not around anymore to defend his beliefs (or lack thereof).

  • Amy

    I think Carlin could be defined as a “weak atheist.” The idea that being an “atheist” is a type of belief is ludicrous. We don’t have a catechism or set of tenets or any of the trappings of a belief system. We simply reject the idea of a supreme being. Whether you think you can prove it through some logical process or not is irrelevant to me, and it sounds like it was irrelevant to Carlin. You can’t prove a negative. The supposed proof of a Christian god is a bunch of writings based on suspect oral transmission and translated (badly) numerous times, which is accepted as true by believers because their elders and the book itself says it’s true (much like e-mail forwards that wind up on snopes.com), not through any objective evidence.Splitting hairs over how much of a non-believer Carlin was is silly. He rejected religion as bu**sh** and the idea of a supreme being as nonsense.

  • Mr Mark

    Carlin on a judging god: “I’m sure there’s no one like that.”

  • karen

    Sheesh Pam-Mark tells me he’s seen a few HBO comedy specials and “Carlin said, “there is no god…it doesn’t exist…we made it all up…I don’t believe in any gods.” And I post an interview showing Carlin answering questions about his belief system. You say-”he just realized you’re going to see what you want to see regardless of the fact that it isn’t there.”Watch the George Carlin interview I posted and listen to him speak of his beliefs.You know you’re in trouble if you base your disbelief in God on George Carlin. He was a complex man with complex beliefs. I find it hopeful that at the end of his life he recanted his indifference towards humanity (he always said he loved individuals) and told his daughter and himself that he does care about the outcome of the world. He just wanted other people to care too.

  • Brambleton

    Pam,Sheesh, it would be comical if it weren’t so exhausting. You don’t need scientific evidence when common sense will suffice. But, here you go . . . 1) On average, the CDC reports that there are one million pregnancies and three million cases of STD’s among teens per year. Guess what? If you’re abstinate, you’re not one of the one million pregnancies and you’re not one of the three million STD’s either.2) The CDC also reports that “15 percent of female adolescents using condoms get pregnant during their first year of use.” That, in and of itself, is a topic for another day. But, again, if you’re abstaining from sex, you cannot fall victim to this statistic. Period.

  • Pam

    Karen,*You’re* the one whaling away at this dead horse.

  • karen

    *You’re* the one whaling away at this dead horse.”Pam, Considering Mr. Carlin’s recent passing- you may want to re-phrase that. What are you so upset about anyway? Is it the fact that George Carlin did not consider himself an atheist?

  • Pam

    “Sheesh, it would be comical if it weren’t so exhausting. You don’t need scientific evidence when common sense will suffice. But, here you go . . . You and Karen are fond of the word “sheesh”, aren’t you? You do realize that it’s a euphemism for “Jesus”…? Your god can’t see through that?Brambleton, you are sounding really thick. The subject was whether the children of atheists were more likely to end up becoming a statistic: “(i.e., teen drinking, teen sex, teen pregnancy, divorce, etc.)”, *not* whether abstinence would result in fewer STDs. You must now prove to me that the children of atheists drink more, have more sex as teens, have more pregnancies as teens, and end up divorced more often. You can’t do it.I do realize that some religious sects preach abstinence until marriage, but you will have to prove to me also that a) atheists encourage their children to go out and endulge in sex as early as possible, and b) that either cohort pays a damn bit of attention to what their parents say, anyway.Further, I think it’s more likely that atheists, being realists, will teach their children about safe sex, and that the abstinence-preachers won’t – making pregnancy and STDs more likely among the religiously raised children who fail to resist their very strong natural urges.But that’s just a guess.

  • Pam

    “Considering Mr. Carlin’s recent passing- you may want to re-phrase [sic] that. “Not at all. And I’m not in the least “upset”, thank you.Answer the question.

  • Fate

    I just listened to the youtube link of the 2001 Carlin interview on Larry King and I must say, it sure did not sound like George is a believer. He sidestepped the “atheist” term, which is just good politics when you are a celebrity. He also noted that if he eventually found out there was a “judge”, he’d be fine with that, which I think most atheists would agree with. I mean, wow, a God would help explain a lot of things, except where the hell he has been all these years, why he lets bad things happen to good people, allows suffering, invented hell, and allows people to be born who grow up to cause us all so much misery. But other than that, yea, I’d be be ok with it like Carlin too!You see, to an atheist, they themselves are the judge of their lives, not God or a preist, minister, pastor, imam, rabbi, etc. They have to live with what they do. They cannot have it erased, absolved, or pray for absolution. Once an atheist does something bad, its stuck in their conscience forever. I’m not saying atheists are better people, I’m saying they are more in tune with their own lives, their goodness, etc. So I think George was simply saying that he did not believe in a God but if their was one, he’d be fine with that too. Is the this horse dead now?

  • karen

    Pam says-”But that’s just a guess”Like your disbelief in God?George Carlin did not consider himself an atheist. He left room for the unknown.

  • E Favorite

    “George Carlin…left room for the unknown.”Sound like an atheist viewpoint to me. It’s the believers who tend to leave no room for the unknown.In fact many know for certain that there is a God heaven and hell exist, even though they’ve never seen any of it.

  • Pam

    Fate asks if the horse is dead now – apparently not. ;)Amazing that they want so badly to claim George as one of their own, isn’t it?OK, have it your way, he was a frickin’ Holy Roller. Now give it a rest.

  • Fate

    Pam wrote: “Further, I think it’s more likely that atheists, being realists, will teach their children about safe sex, and that the abstinence-preachers won’t – making pregnancy and STDs more likely among the religiously raised children who fail to resist their very strong natural urges.”Its more complicated than that, but I will add one observation. Kids in the bible belt tend to get married much earlier than those in other parts of the country. So while 18 year old kids in northeastern colleges are having sex outside marriage, the bible belt kids are having sex within marriage. I was shocked when I went to Dallas for a newphew’s high school graduation and saw no less than 20 girls waddle up to the stage, obviously pregnant, to get their diplomas. I looked at my nephew’s mom with what had to have been a little shock and she said, “oh ya, y’all aren’t used to kids getting married and pregnant in hi’ schooool”. So abstinence may make a lot of sense when your kids are getting married in their teens, but not so much when they are getting married in their late 20s and 30s. So northeasterners are in shock when the bible belters says they should abstain until marriage (since marriage is typically in the late teens) and the bible belters can’t imagine kids not getting married so late in life, so can’t understand why anyone should comtemplate sex outside marriage. A simple situation of two cultures not understanding one another.

  • Pam

    Teen Pregnancy Rates in the USAby Victor C. Strasburger, MDThe United States has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the western world, despite the fact that our teens are not more sexually active than Swedish teens, or Canadian teens, or British teens.Why? Because we don’t educate about birth control in sex education classes, we don’t discuss it at home, we don’t give teens good access to it, and we don’t advertise it in our media. Other countries do, and they are rewarded with low rates of teen pregnancy and teen abortions. But, you say, making condoms available in school-based clinics would ‘give kids the wrong idea’. In fact, 5 recent research studies indicate that it doesn’t.Educating teenagers about contraception makes them more likely to use contraception when they begin having sex, but it doesn’t lower the age at first intercourse.Why? Probably because the decision where and with whom to become sexually active is a very complicated one, rooted in family, peers, religion, the media, and individual personality factors. But the decision whether to contracept or not is a very simple one: is it available? If so, Ill use it. If not, I’m still going to have sex, but I’m not going to go out of my way to get birth control.Until Americans get over their hysteria about giving young people access to birth control, we will continue to have the highest teen pregnancy rates in the western world. It’s really that simple.

  • karen

    No God versus Possible God (or the Big Electron)”Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion in his section on “The Poverty of Agnosticism” (pp. 46-54) describes agnostics as fence-sitters, and this was not meant as a compliment. Dawkins knows full well that there is a deep metaphysical sense in which we can never know anything for certain. If we’re all being perfectly philosophical, then we have to admit to being agnostics about the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. But what good is that? Do we really go around telling everyone that we just don’t know whether Santa Claus will visit on Christmas Eve? Of course not. We don’t believe in Santa Claus, even though we can all write an essay in Philosophy 101 about not being able to prove a negative.This is what Dawkins means when he says, “I am agnostic only to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the garden” (p. 51).”Atheists aren’t agnostic.Next?

  • Mr Mark

    Pam writes about Carlin:”Amazing that they (Xians) want so badly to claim George as one of their own, isn’t it?”Look at the upside: Karen and others float the idea that Carlin was religious, so the religious go out and rent his various HBO specials in the hopes of hearing “one of their” pontificate on god and Jesus, only to be in for the rude awakening that was George Carlin on the subjects of god & Jesus.Sometimes, non-existent god moves in unpredictable ways.

  • Mr Mark

    spiderman2 writes:”Dr. RP, The best thing to do is to make an experiment. Put a number of poles around the world where there are no volcanic eruptions or dusts flying around. The jungle could be a nice location. Check on the elevation of the poles every 20 years and see how deeply it’s being buried after 1000 years.”OK, who wants to f**k with Spidey by visiting all of his poles next year and pounding them into the ground until only a few inches of each one remains above the surface?:O

  • karen

    “the religious go out and rent his various HBO specials in the hopes of hearing “one of their” pontificate on god and Jesus”Mark,You sound slightly unhinged. More likely- atheists (like yourself) will hear George Carlin’s HBO Specials and so identify with his comedy routine that they forget that its comedic hyperbole.Just be a man and admit that you were wrong. Carlin was not an atheist. He said so himself.

  • karen

    “the religious go out and rent his various HBO specials in the hopes of hearing “one of their” pontificate on god and Jesus”Mark,You sound slightly unhinged. More likely- atheists (like yourself) will hear George Carlin’s HBO Specials and so identify with his comedy routine that they forget that its comedic hyperbole.Just be a man and admit that you were wrong. Carlin was not an atheist. He said so himself.

  • Paganplace

    “Its more complicated than that, but I will add one observation. Kids in the bible belt tend to get married much earlier than those in other parts of the country. So while 18 year old kids in northeastern colleges are having sex outside marriage, the bible belt kids are having sex within marriage.”And… end up with a better than fifty-percent divorce rate, so when they end up cheating or looking elsewhere, they have no idea how to protect themselves. Not informing kids, (or disinforming them with notions ‘Condoms don’t work, anyway, so don’t learn how to actually use em right or bother at all,’ ) *never* provides an advantage. I come from a very sex-positive faith group, and I see Pagan kids being level-headed and responsible, and, frankly, not in any hurry to run out and have sex, maybe because there’s no ‘forbidden fruit’ notion attached to the idea. And certainly they’re not gonna end up in a bad marriage with a teenage pregnancy cause someone reduced marriage to ‘permission to have sex’for them, and couldn’t learn to ‘wait’ for parenthood, either.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Karen -I have to hand it to you on Carlin. You’ve created an argument where none exists, and then, you’ve proceeded to lose the argument.Worse, the person who dismantled your argument was none other than George Carlin himself…worser, you provided the Carlin quotes yourself…worst, you still don’t get it.Perhaps more Carlin quotes are on the way? If so, thanks in advance.Now, that’s a special talent you have there, if not a unique one. Let’s see…what other thing sets up false arguments and then proceeds to lose its arguments based on the information it puts forward to bolster its false arguments?Oh,right! Christianity!

  • Pam

    Very mature, Karen.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Karen -I don’t know if I’m the one to tell you this, but compared to many others who I’ve debated on this blog, you’re a rank amateur. You couldn’t even get 10 posts in before resorting to calling me “unhinged” and calling my posts to you “a bilious verbal spew.” Even our house clown Spidey did better than that whence he first infected the blog.I’ll assume Hitler’s name will be appearing from you soon as well.Try again, Karen. We’ve got a L-O-N-G way to go before I’m grasping at straws and gasping for air.:O

  • Dr.R.P.

    I find it funny and interesting how believers can act like lawyers when it comes to combing through statements by obvious unbelievers who are now deceased to look for “proof” that they actually were believers. It’s as if I make the statement “I do not believe in a white bearded invisible guy up in the sky controlling my actions” and they take that to mean “I believe that god is a woman”.I also find it amusing that believers treat with pride the possibility that someone would become a believer when close to death. Personally, I wouldn’t consider the fact that people move to my belief system while in a state of desperation to be very good evidence of its truth. After all, if I told you “believe in my theory, because studies have shown that when we stun someone by whacking them in the head with a baseball bath, they are more likely to believe my theory”, would that be convincing evidence that my theory is correct?

  • karen

    Lighten up a little, Pam and Mark.You are making atheists seem humourless and bitter, mean-spirited and cold. That’s not good PR for your rather small, disorganised group of disbelievers.Your entire belief system doesn’t hang on George Carlin dying an atheist. Your world has not ended.You are free to believe ot disbelieve in God. But so was George Carlin. Surely you can tell the difference between stand-up comedy and an interview. You should accept that George Carlin was a free-thinking, truth-telling spirit and trust his words as he spoke them.

  • Pam

    “Lighten up a little, Pam and Mark.”LOL – physician, heal thyself!

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Dr RP -Good post.You make a good point about “how believers can act like lawyers when it comes to combing through statements by obvious unbelievers who are now deceased to look for “proof” that they actually were believers.”Imagine if they spent half that effort combing through Biblical and historical scholarship that challenges their beliefs, or reading science articles, or doing something besides accepting their unprovable dogma as truth?Imagine.

  • Arminius

    Karen,They ain’t gonna lighten up, especially when you are a moving target throwing them free ammo. I have verbally duked it out with several – Mr Mark is exceptional at it – and come away bloody but unbowed. But – and this is very important – I learned to respect them. They really are pretty good folks. Look, they most certainly can be sarcastic, and it can seem like an attack – but it is not really one, just their biting form of humor. Yes, it can be funny.For the record, I am Christian, and thought that Carlin at the end was simply non-committal about it all.

  • Mr Mark

    Karen sez:”You are making atheists seem humourless and bitter, mean-spirited and cold. That’s not good PR for your rather small, disorganised group of disbelievers.”Dear Pam -Did you – like me – just have a flashback to…er…yesterday!… whence reading Karen’s post?I’m getting the impression that there’s a website out there called, “Good comebacks to atheists for the Xian.”If so, Praise Dog!

  • karen

    “LOL – physician, heal thyself!”Pam. Now that is funny. My whole office is laughing. You have no idea who you I am or what you have said.

  • Mr Mark

    Karen writes:”LOL – physician, heal thyself!”Pam. Now that is funny. My whole office is laughing. You have no idea who you I am or what you have said.”A few thoughts: 1) must be nice to be able to post from the office. Most of aren’t allowed to do so.2) Taking Pam to task for using a common phrase like “physician, heal thyself” is the kind of slam I’d expect from a self-important…physician.3) Perhaps that explains your earlier reference to “Dixie Cups” and the use of the word “spew.” You might be a dentist! Who else but dentists and doctors use Dixie Cups these days?Sorry if my diagnoses-from-afar smacks of Bill Frist.;)

  • karen

    Mark is-”getting the impression that there’s a website out there called, “Good comebacks to atheists for the Xian.”Or maybe you hear it repeated because its the simple Truth.

  • spiderman2

    Pagan, you have a terrible problem. It is called READING COMPREHENSION. First nobody is saying this earth shrank. Second, it’s not the Lord who is being chastened. Focus… inhale…exhale. Relax and savor what you read. You wrote “People who think like that, or for that matter can’t pronounce ‘Nuclear’ …”Regardless of how many times you read that formula E=mc2, you won’t understand it. If you find it hard to understand simple english, how much more with a book summarized in just 3 letters? This might keep you busy so you won’t waste my time. What’s the recipe for making cookies?

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Karen -Like a moth to the flame, you seem strangely attracted to me.Sorry, but I’m already married…to a woman named Karen, in fact!;)

  • karen

    Mark thinks”you seem strangely attracted to me”So sorry Mark- the gates may be down and the lights flashing, but the train isn’t coming- iykwimaityd.And this from a man who said he was done with this “particular avenue of discussion” around 3:00. Sheesh (Anglicized version of the german word “Scheisse”) (not Jeez) And remember- George Carlin was never an atheist. Not because I said he wasn’t- but because he said he wasn’t..

  • Pam

    sheesh Definitionsheesh (s̸hēs̸h)used variously to express disbelief, surprise, annoyance, etc.Etymology: prob. var. of jeez

  • Pam

    That was from Mydictionary.com, BTW.If you think it comes from “scheisse” (sh*t), then you’ve been using it wrong.

  • Mr Mark

    Karen wrote:”And this from a man who said he was done with this “particular avenue of discussion” around 3:00.”Actually, I wrote:”I think I’m done with this particular avenue of discussion.”Notice the qualifier: “think.”Looks like I thought wrong. The point is that my statement was hardly the definitive statement that you portrayed above by cropping my quote as you did.BTW – you’re not the first religionist here who has tried to imply something onerous about a non-believer’s words by using a partial quote. It happens all the time with the honest and upstanding religionists.Gotta go!

  • karen

    Speaking of scheisse, Pam. You are anal. You are gonna wear yourself out trying to correct every “perceived” spelling or grammar error on the internet. That’s the dictionary my grandma uses. You are wrong. Let it go…

  • spidrman2

    Excavations everywhere. How come idiots didn’t notice the earth’s radius has been rising? Here’s just a few among the thousands. Some unearthed; the others coming soon. They’re scattered all around the world. ALL AROUND THE WORLD. If you guys want to be famous, start digging. Just dropped by. c ya later guys.***For the last several years, archaeologists have been steadily working to excavate a network of dozens of temples that are believed to be older than the pyramids in Egypt, and even older than Stonehenge. More than 150 gigantic monuments have already been identified and unearthed beneath fields and cities in Austria, Germany, and Slovakia. The temples are built from wood and earth and are surrounded by fences and ramparts that extend for thousands of feet. The fortifications and buildings, built between 4800BC and 4600BC, are believed to have been constructed by a civilization based on farming and agriculture. ***The Indus Valley Civilization (c. 3000–1500 BCE, Mature period 2600–1900 BCE), abbreviated IVC, was an ancient civilization that flourished in the Indus river valleys primarily in the Sindh and Punjab provinces of modern-day Pakistan, extending westward into Balochistan province, and in northwestern and western India. Other remains of the IVC can also be found in present-day Afghanistan, Turkmenistan and Iran. The mature phase of this civilization is technically known as the Harappan Civilization, after the first of its cities to be excavated, Harappa. Excavation of IVC sites has been ongoing since the 1920s, with important breakthroughs occurring as recently as 1999.[

  • Pam

    Spelling or grammar error? What the hell are you talking about, Karen?

  • Dr.R.P.

    SPIDEY:”a(exp 2)=b(exp 2)=c(exp 2)”.Please try to refrain from putting meaningless equations in your posts to try to impress people with your intelligence. You’re not impressing ANYONE.

  • Paganplace

    ” spidrman2:Excavations everywhere. How come idiots didn’t notice the earth’s radius has been rising?”Cause it *hasn’t?* It. *Hasn’t.* Changed. If you don’t believe the physical impossibility of your own ‘theory’ in the first place, it doesn’t square with observations. Certainly not to the degree you’re talking. Frankly, even your little theory here doesn’t explain your Noah’s Ark story.

  • karen

    Pam wants to know”What the hell are you talking about, Karen?”Oh no. STML.Golly gee (two more euphemisms for Jesus- right?),Honestly- I have heard they are allowing access to the internet in the rec rooms of nursing homes now. I think it a great idea.

  • Paganplace

    *looking quizzically at Karen.* I’m not sure your point here, apart from that, yes, Christianity has affected slang? I mean, I use the F word from time to time, that doesn’t mean I actually think that’s a bad or obscene thing to speak of…

  • Dr.R.P.

    OK spidey, now to critique your argument. You claim that the earth could shrink and grow and you use nulcear reaction as your justification. What nuclear process do you claim could do such a thing? Your energy to mass conversion hypothesis was based on taking energy from the sun. When mass is converted to energy, such as in the case of an atomic bomb, the energy comes from nuclear binding energy released when nucleons are broken into smaller pieces in a nuclear chain reaction. Are you saying that this happened, and then reversed itself?The other possibility is the direct creation of particles via nuclear interaction, and the reverse, particle direct conversion to energy. In this case, a baryon and anti baryon convert to photons. The earth is made up of baryons. So where are all the anti baryons coming from for the direct conversion process?

  • spiderman2

    Dr. RP wrote “You claim that the earth could shrink and grow “Grow but not shrink. Fate wrote “But please tell me where man has been able to turn energy into matter”It can be demonstrated in particle accelerators.Fate wrote “Is the sun’s energy being turned into rock?”I told you , creation is a very complex matter. We have lots of things to learn and yet we see evolutionist scientists speak as if they saw creation right before their eyes. The point is we don’t judge the Bible as erroneous if we ourselves don’t exactly know how it happened or how it’s happening.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Karen -HBO had a Carlin retrospective yesterday, playing many of his HBO specials back to back. I can’t count how many times in those specials Carlin said, “there is no god…it doesn’t exist…we made it all up…I don’t believe in any gods.”

  • Dr.R.P.

    Spidey,As a scientist, I would say that your argument is not convincing. It seems to boil down to “you just don’t understand”. Well, that is not how progress toward understanding is made, so I have to conclude you offer no value-add to this forum.I am sure that I am the absolute LAST one in this forum to conclude that.

  • E Favorite

    Karen: “You are making atheists seem humourless and bitter, mean-spirited and cold.”Actually Karen, that’s how you’re coming across, but having been a Christian myself, I know they’re not all that way.

  • spiderman2

    Dr. RP, The best thing to do is to make an experiment. Put a number of poles around the world where there are no volcanic eruptions or dusts flying around. The jungle could be a nice location. Check on the elevation of the poles every 20 years and see how deeply it’s being buried after 1000 years.Somebody has to start it so the people of the future would know for sure and not just rely on a bunch of idiotic theories like evolution.

  • Pam

    “—> Is it really necessary to go to the extreme? Or am I missing the sarcasm? Anyway, I don’t think anyone would argue that you would find well-behaved and healthy kids (and vice versa) on both sides of the aisle, and I don’t think anyone is arguing differently. However, I firmly believe that Christian families who adhere to God’s covenant do have a greater opportunity for family stability and less of a chance of becoming a statistic (i.e., teen drinking, teen sex, teen pregnancy, divorce, etc.).”Hmmmmm… Brambleton speak with forked tongue…

  • Mr Mark

    RNH asks:”Have you not read 1 Cor 1:18 -24?”I have, and I consider it one of the most-laughable passages in the entire Bible. It’s the whole “because I said so” argument in a nutshell, a set of verses that says no matter what the quality and volume of the evidence that proves that Xian beliefs are unfounded, it means nothing, because Paul says, “uh-nuh, that can’t be true because I said so.”So, don’t believe reason. Don’t believe logic. Don’t believe the overwhelming evidence. Don’t believe your own eyes! It’s all wrong, wrong, wrong, because the Bible says its wrong.And what evidence is there that the Bible is right and all other evidence is wrong? Why, the Bible’s 100% accuracy rate on such things like the flat earth, Adam & Eve, 6 days to create the earth, bats being birds, unicorns and fire-breathing dragons existing, virgins giving birth, bushes burning while holding a conversation, the stars being tiny points of light attached to a solid firmament that sits above the earth separating the water on the planet from the bodies of water directly above the firmament, an ass talking to its owner, a flood that covered the entire earth, etc, etc etc.That’s the evidence that RNH believes is factual while science and any non-Biblical evidence is false.And all because a homophobic misogynist says so.Brilliant!

  • Fate

    spiderman2 wrote: “It [turning energy into matter] can be demonstrated in particle accelerators.”Yes it has, but you forgot to mention that it is only created for microseconds because what is created is matter and antimatter. The two very quickly recombine back into energy. Now man has successfully separated the two, and held the antimatter in manegetic “bottles” for futher experiments, but it is a very small number of particles (not even atoms) that they create (with great energies). So man can create matter (and antimatter) from energy, very carefully, with huge amounts of energy, and only in extremely small amounts. In other words, it is not something that is easy to do nor seen everyday, as you claim it is happening.spiderman2 wrote: “I told you , creation is a very complex matter. We have lots of things to learn and yet we see evolutionist scientists speak as if they saw creation right before their eyes. The point is we don’t judge the Bible as erroneous if we ourselves don’t exactly know how it happened or how it’s happening.”I was asking about your statement that matter is created on earth by the sun’s energy, not evolution. Matter that buries old cities, bones, etc. If it is happening, in amounts that can bury cities worldwide in just a few millenia, it must be something that we could see. Have you done the calculations to determine how much matter the sun’s energy could produce on earth? Has the amount of energy that is converted to matter, and thus lost, been measured by anyone. Scientists know how much of the sun’s energy hits the earth, is reflected from the earth, warms the earth, etc. I know of no one who has reported a lost energy because it is being converted into matter. Do you?BTW, I’m still waiting for you to identify those 5 equations are that I asked you about earlier. I thought your engineering education would have them all identified by now.

  • spiderman2

    I can imagine there’s the pole in the center of the jungle. Day 1 – 100 leaves fell at the foot of the poleDay 100 – thousands of rotten leaves lie at the foot of the tree.Day 1000 – most of the leaves have rot and turned to soil burrying the pole an inch or two. Day 1,000,000 – no pole can be found. it’s burried just like ancient civilizations. Judgment day is coming just like the flood in the time of Noah.c ya later guysP.S. fate, those are high school equations, not necesarily for engineers.F=ma force=mass*acceleration. The rest refers to gravity and projectile motion. Can’t remember the others.

  • E Favorite

    Karen quoting Carlin: “”I’ve read some of the (atheist) books you’ve mentioned and some of the reasons of existence and God and what a bad name religion has given God.” That’s NOT an atheist’s statement.”That’s not a non-atheist statement either. It seems pretty innocuous to me. Are you suggesting it shows some kind of proof that he grew more religious as he approached death? If so, perhaps you’re projecting how you presume an atheist – or anyone – would feel as they pondered eternity. Also are you suggesting that his apparent softening attitudes toward America directly relate to his views on God? That’s quite a leap.

  • Anonymous

    Spidey:”Dr. RP, The best thing to do is to make an experiment. Put a number of poles around the world where there are no volcanic eruptions or dusts flying around. The jungle could be a nice location. Check on the elevation of the poles every 20 years and see how deeply it’s being buried after 1000 years.”We expect a full report on your trip to the Amazon when you get back.”Day 1000 – most of the leaves have rot and turned to soil burrying the pole an inch or two.”When you get your nobel prize, you can refer to this process as “the dead leaf hypothesis”.But I should be fair. This theory is no crazier than believing there is an invisible person up in the sky (paraphrasing G. Carlin here) watching and controlling all our actions, or that some book written by primitive superstitious men which is through its Nth translation contains all the truth and nothing but the truth about the universe. As a matter of fact, perhaps for you this is progress!

  • Fate

    spiderman2: “Day 1,000,000 – no pole can be found. it’s burried just like ancient civilizations. What conclusion can we make then? I rest my case.”That is not matter being converted from the sun’s energy as you stated was the cause of buried cities, unless you think plants *create* matter. It seems like you just make this stuff up as you go along…spiderman2: “Judgment day is coming just like the flood in the time of Noah.”Good thing I’m not a kangaroo, eh spidey? I’m still waiting for an answer to how they got to Australia, which you continually avoid.spiderman2: “P.S. fate, those are high school equations, not necesarily for engineers. F=ma force=mass*acceleration. The rest refers to gravity and projectile motion. Can’t remember the others.”You got F=ma correct. But one out of 5 is not good, especially when it is a high school equation. I’ll give you the projectile motion one, so 2/5, but it is also studied in high school. The others are more specialized. I can wait for you to try to remember them, assuming you have studied them, unless you’re still in school, which would make you a studnt, not an engineer.

  • Brambleton

    Amy,”Hmmmmm… Brambleton speak with forked tongue…”–> I’ll bite. Where does that come from?

  • karen

    When George Carlin says-”what a bad name religion has given God” it seems “pretty innocuous” to you? To me he clearly is acknowledging a God he favors. That doesn’t offend me- so I have to agree- its pretty innocuous.

  • Anonymous

    Paganplace:”Yes, organic matter makes soil, (and ancient cities have archaeological strata cause *people brought the material there*) …No, solar energy from space doesn’t condense into the matter involved to *create* all that extra matter…” It’s the dead leaf hypothesis, coming to a peer reviewed scientific journal near you! ;)

  • Paganplace

    My last post there was misdirected, apologies. :)

  • Wiglaf

    Arminius,Pastafarianism is wonderful, on par with the Jesus Lizards. It reminds me of a night in college, when my brother and I (in the same dorm) both had lengthy papers due the next day.I don’t know what happened, but my philosophy research paper, which I hadn’t started, turned into “On Kornschraunst’s Argument from Design” replete with substantive footnotes and bibliography. Needless to say, there never was a Kornschraunst, and I won’t go into “the theory.”To say we were high at the composing of our respective masterworks, his, on why knowing how to sew buttons is more important than sociology, is to say the least.The outcome? This was the very early seventies. My brother got an A for the paper, was told he’d get an A for the course, and didn’t have to attend classes anymore. The philosophy prof. gave me an A and read the paper to the class, a first-rate example of “doing philosophy.” BTW., this was CornellWiglaf

  • Mr Mark

    “When was the last time the Catholics tried to push their beliefs down other people’s throats?”That would be yesterday, when the 5 Catholics on the SCOTUS voted for the NRA on striking down handgun laws while the 4 non-Catholics on the Court voted against it.

  • Wiglaf

    Mr. Mark-”When was the last time the Catholics tried to push their beliefs down other people’s throats?”That would be yesterday, when the 5 Catholics on the SCOTUS voted for the NRA on striking down handgun laws while the 4 non-Catholics on the Court voted against it.

  • Anonymous

    “You’ve [Mr Mark] not only rejected Paul, but God’s word”Does this shock you “Reasonable,” that a person who does not believe in gods would reject their word — as if non-existent beings could talk?

  • Mr Mark

    RNH sez:”Detest Paul, admire Carlin….. that tells a story for sure.”To intelligent, rational anti-bigots, it certainly does, and a positive and egalitarian story it is. To people like you, it’s indecipherable and incomprehensible. After all, what’s left for the religionist once his “I’m better than you because I’m Xian/male/American/Baptist/white/goin’ ta heaven” delusion is removed?In this modern age, anyone – including Xians – would be better off viewing life through Carlin’s lens than they would be through that of Paul. What a loathsome creature he was (Paul, that is!).As far as this comment:”As far as Paul being sexist- part of that was the culture at the time. How anyone can hold someone of the age accountable for something did not reside in any culture at the time is beyond me.”So, you admit that Paul’s sexist writings were not the word of god, but were imaginings purely from his own mind. Bingo! You’ve hit the jackpot! Welcome to the “Bible is a fallible creation of men’s minds” crew!Isn’t the whole point of the Bible being authored by god the idea that HIS word transcends the ages? If so, then how can a word of it be labeled as “part of the culture at the time?” Does that not mean that those offending words of Paul are no longer operational in our modern day? And if those words are suspect, is not the philosophy lying behind and informing every single word he wrote also suspect?Dp you think these things through before offering your opinions?The rest of your screed is just another whiney personal attack and is beneath comment.Back to your “rock,” RNH. Preferably, under it.

  • Anonymous

    “Carlin’s take on life resonated with me. He made excellent points about the fake national weeping over Columbine, the ineffectiveness of our current placebo airport security and America’s sorry obsession with death and violence (which feeds its overwhelming embrace of religion as a hoped for get-out-of-jail-free card to keep one’s own person safe from said violence).”mr. mark gives us a glimpse into his twisted macabre mind and i smell the putrid rotting carcass of a small, highly fanatical, highly self obsessed portion of society…

  • Arminius

    Anonymous sez”mr. mark gives us a glimpse into his twisted macabre mind and i smell the putrid rotting carcass of a small, highly fanatical, highly self obsessed portion of society…”I think that ‘putrid rotting carcass of a small, highly fanatical, highly self obsessed portion of society’ belongs to people like you. Mr Mark can be quite sarcastic, and will push the envelope, perhaps too often. But he does not tolerate fools.

  • daniel

    What is shocking is the unveiled hatred and anger some posters display towards something they believe does not exist. These posts are so full high and mighty self-righteous pomposity, ridicule, and seething anger- it’s impossible to tell what’s being said- although the point attempted is always- “I’m right and you offer nothing worthy of my esteemed consideration..”These are the posters compelled to posts repeatedly for hours on end- because if they can’t shoutdown an opposing view- they intend to to appear to win by outlasting and outposting.

  • Anonymous

    arminius- you say the man who finds the suffering of columbine an acceptable and commendable subject for standup comedy “does not tolerate fools”- does columbine humor make you laugh too? maybe its the suicide jokes that really get you laughing?when you defend this man- you place yourself in the company of fools and make yourself his fellow fool:Psalm 14:1

  • Arminius

    Anonymous,No, I do not think that the Columbine massacre had a shred of humor in it. But I have not heard Carlin’s take on it. I believe I read here that George was not saying that Columbine itself was funny, but that the fake grief of many was something to ridicule. Perhaps others here can comment on this.

  • Anonymous

    arminius thinks george c. was right in ridiculing the “fake grief of many (over the columbine massacre)”.the school shooting was not funny- but there were loads of people just “faking grief” over the massacre and that’s really funny?could you give me a scrap of something to back up what your saying?first- prove to me the “fake grief of many”- i only remember an outpouring of national shock and horror.second- explain wtf you think is so funny about grief (real or fake) after the death of a child?

  • Arminius

    Anon,’Funny’ and ‘Ridicule’ are not necessarily the same things. People faking grief are not funny, but they are moving targets for satire because of their hypocrisy.There is NOTHING funny about a dead child. No parent should EVER have to bury a child. I have two kids, and thank God every day for them.

  • Gerry

    The Christian doctrine was established for the first time in 325 in the Nicaean Council, a “committee” organized by the Emperor Constantine. He assembled a huge group of around 300 Bishops and another 1200 clergy. (All “witnesses” were dead already centuries ago). One of their main topics was the stance of Arianus of Alexandria that Jesus Christ was NOT fully of the same “substance” as God and the idea of a “Trinity” was wrong, while Athanasius maintained the contrary. The committee finally sided with Athanasius.They were arguing and quarrelling in Greek and Latin (we must assume that half of the attendees spoke no Greek, the other half no Latin) over Greek/Hebrew/Latin/Aramaic finesses such as the difference between “essence” and “substance” etc. etc. Can anybody imagine the semantic chaos and the validity of such a congress? “Eternal Truth”?In a later Council (381, Constantinople), the emperor Theodosius finally ORDERED Athanasianism, including the Trinity to be the “true” belief, threatening everybody who did not believe this version with punishments for heresy. The “Trinity” concept (found nowhere in the bible) was nothing but a political joker to find a compromise for the quarreling factions. It is amusing to hear people believing in the “Trinity” without having the slightest idea what that is.Scholars have pointed out that already in the old Greek, Latin and Hebrew texts there were thousands of errors, mistakes and discrepancies, and the discrepancies up to this day, of course, have multiplied. The English language didn’t exist at that council, lol, but still pious believers actually believe that “God” dictated his word (in English?) – to whom, btw?, since the persons supposed to have written the NT are rarely, if at all, documented outside the church itself.In the face of such historically documented facts I really am at a loss to find any reason whatsoever (except maybe for the social usefulness, like in fraternities, I “believe” in Phi Mu Alpha e.g.) for anybody to be a “believer”. The object of the “belief” itself is actually untraceable, it melts away under your fingers if you try to touch it. Thus, belief is nothing but the understandable creation of a warm feeling of mental wellness, enhanced by group think, and Carlin, of course, knew this. Wellness is laudable, as long as nobody forces his brand of it down my throat.

  • Arminius

    Thanks, Wiccan.

  • autonomous

    Anon the bibler – how about providing some direct evidence as to how George Carlin satirized the Columbine incident? You’re making some very disparaging remarks here without a shred of evidence – do comedians or anyone else find mass murder humorous? Your statements are incredulous. How funny is this? When the spiritual leader of the Albigensian Crusade, one Arnold-Amaury, Abbot of Citeaux was asked about the probable harm that would befall the innocents (Catholics mixed with Cathars) in the city of Beziers by the assault on the Cathars (as ordered by Pope Innocent III), Arnold offered the now infamous quote, ‘Kill them all, God will know his own’. And they did….when Arnold reported the total slaughter of every man, woman and child living in the town to the Pope, his was response was in kind – the Pope exclaimed that the murder of 20,000 was quite justified, and that God had permitted the faithful to earn their salvation even though they had been exterminated. The Cathars were closely allied with the highly regarded Knights Templar and the accompanying Troubadour tradition ….and who had refused the King’s order to participate in the wholesale slaughter of Cathars (the Pope and King Louis VIII being of one mind). St. Dominic and his Dominican priests (along with a notable number from the Cistercian order) jumped at the chance. Later, the Templars themselves were singled out and exterminated by these same forces for their vast wealth and property holdings – thus ended the (partial) myth of the Knights of the Round Table. Religious historian Mircea Eliade believed that the Albigensians represented the sole example of the introduction of ‘eastern’ religion into medieval Western Europe.The Catholic Church has a history of slaughtering countless numbers in their efforts to spread the faith – that’s not funny, but it is ironic. It wasn’t long after Martin Luther that the newly minted Protestants took up the same tradition of purging the ‘unfaithful’ with vigor.

  • autonomous

    Anon the bibler – how about providing some direct evidence as to how George Carlin satirized the Columbine incident? You’re making some very disparaging remarks here without a shred of evidence – do comedians or anyone else find mass murder humorous? Your statements are incredulous. How funny is this? When the spiritual leader of the Albigensian Crusade, one Arnold-Amaury, Abbot of Citeaux was asked about the probable harm that would befall the innocents (Catholics mixed with Cathars) in the city of Beziers by the assault on the Cathars (as ordered by Pope Innocent III), Arnold offered the now infamous quote, ‘Kill them all, God will know his own’. And they did….when Arnold reported the total slaughter of every man, woman and child living in the town to the Pope, his was response was in kind – the Pope exclaimed that the murder of 20,000 was quite justified, and that God had permitted the faithful to earn their salvation even though they had been exterminated. The Cathars were closely allied with the highly regarded Knights Templar and the accompanying Troubadour tradition ….and who had refused the King’s order to participate in the wholesale slaughter of Cathars (the Pope and King Louis VIII being of one mind). St. Dominic and his Dominican priests (along with a notable number from the Cistercian order) jumped at the chance. Later, the Templars themselves were singled out and exterminated by these same forces for their vast wealth and property holdings – thus ended the (partial) myth of the Knights of the Round Table. Religious historian Mircea Eliade believed that the Albigensians represented the sole example of the introduction of ‘eastern’ religion into medieval Western Europe.The Catholic Church has a history of slaughtering countless numbers in their efforts to spread the faith – that’s not funny, but it is ironic. It wasn’t long after Martin Luther that the newly minted Protestants took up the same tradition of purging the ‘unfaithful’ with vigor.

  • Arminius

    Autonomous,Nice post, and accurate as I understand the Albigensian holocaust. I did some web searching after the comment about RC’s being innocent of killing apostates in the past.

  • wiccan

    Hello, Arminius.If people like Anon would bloody READ the posts first, they could spare themselves the humiliation of making truly asinine posts in return. And the “holier-than-thou” attitude didn’t help. Twit.

  • Anonymous

    Over and over again one reads the history of Islam being pasted on the Catholic Church. Over and over again one reads of European colonization pushed as history of Christianity. Please note Christianity was not instituted as a theocracy. Jesus never taught it, never lived it. If European colonizers had been pushing Christianity like their Muslim counterparts, the whole world would be Christian. It is my guess that those with Muslim sympathies are presenting a distorted view of Christianity as a way of being politically correct, although factually wrong.

  • Anonymous

    E Favourite mentioned Crusades —The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions had some European Christians fought back.E Favourite mentioned the Jesuits —Check the history and accomplishments of the Jesuits worldwide, past and present, starting from the life of its founder Ignatius of Loyola.

  • daniel

    Anon-Isn’t it sad that the small erratic band of posters here are such dedicated Christ-haters- they prefer to side with a people whose holy book demands they and all like them be killed?They feel secure in their freedom living among majority Christians- unaware that their world is about to be turned upside down.

  • Arminius

    Anon,You sound just like the bigotry puked by CCNL, but without the really long lists.Rome was never sacked by an Islamic army.Any list of Islamic conquests and slaughters can be matched by a Christian list.

  • Arminius

    Anon,Apology here. The Saracens did do in most of Rome in 846. I had to look it up. Sorry.

  • Anonymous

    Gerry, response to this comment on SJ’s blog MBC.

  • Anonymous

    Gerry, when was the last time Catholics tried to push their beliefs down your throat or anybody’s throat. Ex-communication is the most serious punishment meted out to anyone by RCC. Death for apostacy has existed only in Islam, and never in Christianity or any other religion. For all of two thousand years there have been Christians also outside the Roman Catholic Church who practiced their faith. You do the religion a great disfavor when you confuse misuse of political power in Europe by Christians for a brief period in its long history with the teachings and life of Jesus Christ and what RCC is today.

  • Arminius

    Paganplace, my friend,I was mightily puzzled by Daniel ITLD’s post. I think he was talking about a different overturning of things, but only he can answer that.Yeah, we Christians have that book. But damn few are thirsting for your death. Damn few. Our secular form of government must be preserved at all costs, with equality and tolerance for all. (Yes, except for the certified nutcases…). A lot of us Christians are behind that.As I ended a poem once -We’re all God’s children, can’t you see?Arminius

  • E Favorite

    Gerry and others – I wonder how believers react to your post about Christian history. Do they ignore it? Check its veracity through reliable sources (e.g., academic libraries, theologians, religion classes, clergy with advanced education, other respected mainstream sources – articles, books, websites)? Think about it with interest, but not follow up on it? Blow it off?If they look into it, what effect does it have on their faith – make it stronger, weaker, no effect? How does this happen?I’m really curious to know.

  • daniel

    Pagan-I call you a Christ-hater because you hate Christ.There are countries who have opened their doors to Christians and ask them to consider leaving America to begin a new life. If this becomes a trend -then your wish for a Christian-less America may come true.

  • Fate

    Karen wrote: “And remember- George Carlin was never an atheist. Not because I said he wasn’t- but because he said he wasn’t..”George Carlin was raised a Catholic, as was Tim Russert. Would Russert have said what Carlin said in the youtube interview? Russert died with a rosary in his pocket. Carlin died with nothing in his pocket.Carlin said in the interview that he considered atheism a belief, presumably a belief that there is no God. Carlin said he was not an atheist since he did not hold that belief, but he never said he held a belief in a God. He said some would call him an agnostic, but he said he was not that either. It seems pretty clear he did not believe in a God. He seemed to be saying he held NO belief, either for a God or no God. He seemed to really care little about the question. I would liken it to *your* belief in the god Ganesh. Are you an atheist when it comes to Ganesh, an agnostic or a believer? You would probably say the god Ganesh was not real but if you ever found out he was real, that would be fine. So what do you call yourself when it comes to Ganesh, an atheist, agnostic or believer Karen?Call Carlin a free spirit if you will, but one thing is clear, he was no believer. The closest you can get, based on a 2001 interview (not a deathbed interview at all), is that if God appeared before him, he would be fine with that. Now go to your church and tell your pastor/priest/minister that you do not think there is a God but if he existed that would be fine with you, and ask him/her whether that makes you a believer or not.

  • Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia

    E Favourite, reason is a double edged sword. It can cut both ways, lead one away from faith or towards faith. Who is to judge how the complex mind in each one works? Even two scientists may look at the same data set and draw two different conclusions. Real faith is strengthened when tested, weak faith dies away.

  • Arminius

    Daniel,I see now. You are NOT the benign Daniel In The Lion’s Den. Nope. You are one of the trolls that creep in here from time to time.Paganplace does not hate Christ. I don’t think that she hates anyone, although she has damn good reasons to be wary of some – like you. Your bigotry stinks.

  • Anonymous

    daniel: June 28, 2008 8:24 PM Anon-Isn’t it sad that the small erratic band of posters here are such dedicated Christ-haters- they prefer to side with a people whose holy book demands they and all like them be killed?They feel secure in their freedom living among majority Christians- unaware that their world is about to be turned upside down.******************************Daniel, Arminius is supposedly a Christian! He seems to feel a desperate need to defend Islam and Islamic history. It must be asked if he has read the Quran and history of Islam from a non-Muslim perspective for himself. Even if his history of Christianity is history of European colonization, he does them no justice. The British Empire followed the ways of Roman Caesar, they allowed the locals to practice their faith; they were interested only in political control that brought about economic gain. They trained many of the locals to serve them to that end. Missionary work was not part of their agenda. That some missionaries came along because they were granted freedom to enter and proselytize was a side effect, not part of their colonial agenda.

  • Anonymous

    Daniel, the fate of natives in America and Australia is a different story. Still it does not represent the spread of Christianity.

  • Arminius

    Anon,Yes, I claim to be Christian. My definition of that is inclusive. ‘Love your neighbor’ includes all of humanity.How sad that you believe that you need enemies in order to prop up your own sagging ego. I don’t need them. I don’t want them. I know that God IS, and I know that He is with you too. Why don’t you reach out to him, and find that He is Love?

  • E Favorite

    Speaking of checking things out, I suggest that before accepting the claims in the recent anonymous post, that people do a Google search on terms such as:Crusades, inquisition, Jesuit missionaries, burning at the stake.

  • Fate

    Anonymous wrote: “Gerry, when was the last time Catholics tried to push their beliefs down your throat or anybody’s throat.”You got to be kidding. Constantine waged wars to spread Christianity. The pope for centuries ruled Europe, forcing pagans to take on the new faith. That finally died down once Europe was purely christian, then the protestants split the church and its political power waned. So, in the past, the Catholic church pushed their beliefs down everyone’s throat in Europe. When European nations started colonizing other lands, the missionaries went with them, spreading the Word and in essence trying to force the belief. Sometimes it worked, other times the missionaries were killed. Today the church, through it forced spreading, is wealthy, fat and happy. Its push to spread the faith no longer requires swords or political power, but missionaries are still used. And then there are the Catholic schools today. I survived Catholic school. Please don’t tell me Catholic education is not forced down your throat. I have the literal scars to prove it. Catholicism was born out of a violent spread and violence is in its blood. Ask the Muslims, the Africans, the South American Indians, the Gauls, and anyone who attended Catholic school. It wasn’t just preaching benevolently, not in the least.

  • Arminius

    E Favorite,Re apostasy being punished by death by the Catholic church – the Albigensian Crusade comes to mind.

  • Anonymous

    Arminius, God is also truth. I do not need a make-believe version of the Quran and its teachings and wishful Islamic history to love Muslims. Maybe you do. Peace loving Muslims around the world who have read the Quran and know their history feel the need for a reform in Islam. Maybe you should wonder why.

  • E Favorite

    Soja, you say “Real faith is strengthened when tested,”Could you explain a little how that works? I’m really curious about it.Also regarding scientists – they may come to different conclusions, but it’s based on data, not faith. If two scientists working on the same question come to opposite conclusions, the acceptance of one of those conclusions is going to be based on other scientists’ investigation and acceptance of the data, not on faith in the scientist or faith in his/her data. When scientists change their minds about something, it’s based on new data, not intensified faith.That said, let me assure you that I will not dissect your response about faith to disprove it or disparage it – I’d really like to get a better understanding of it.

  • Anonymous

    The most recent history of violence in the name of Christianity is in Northern Ireland.

  • Anonymous

    It must be emphasized when Muslims conquered lands they never called it Arab conquest or colonies, they never called it creation and expansion of Mohammedan Empire. No matter where they ruled they called it Muslim rule, every accomplishment of the locals, even non-Muslims was called Muslim achievement. Whereas European colonies are known as British Empire, Spanish, Dutch, French, Portugese… COLONIES. Nobody talks of Christian science, Christian music etc. It is European music, western science which happen to have flourished under a Christian civilization. Only art, architecture, music, or sculpture that was specifically religious in nature was called Christian.

  • Mr Mark

    In case anyone is wondering who wrote that yahoo.com “appreciation” of George Carlin that Ted so graciously posted (while failing to attribute the author), it was none other than self-appointed media scold, liar and RW bloviator BRENT BOZELL.That would be the same Brent Bozell who showed his cowardice by refusing to appear on MSNBC if Larry Johnson was also on the program. The same Brent Bozell who is a proven serial liar (do an internet search on “Bozell serial liar”) who made the rounds with his “al Gore’s 50 lies” even after they had all been debunked; the same Brent Bozell who claimed that the NYT was “rooting for the homosexual revolution” because the supported the Gay games; the same Brent Bozell who claimed media refused to give Bush “the benefit of the doubt” on Iraq’s ties to terror; the same Brent Bozell who’s a regular foghorn in the “global warming is a myth” crowd; the same Brent Bozell who is a staunch defender of mAnn Coulter and an ardent critic of anything liberal; the guy who’s a regular guest on RWNM outlet Faux News but can’t get arrested by any other media outlet.Yep, THAT Brent Bozell…the kind of guy George Carlin used to wipe the floor with.

  • Arminius

    The Albigensian Crusade – 1209 – 1239 CE. The Albigensians were ‘heretics’, and since they had separated from the Catholic church, this made them apostates. Estimates of deaths range from 200,000 to 1,000,000. The troubles in Northern Ireland had nothing to to with apostasy, but about social and political issues.

  • Tim

    When was the last time the Catholics tried to push their beliefs down other people’s throats? Is that a joke?How about a woman’s right to choose in this country?They don’t want to push their beliefs. They want to make them law.

  • E Favorite

    “Arminius is supposedly a Christian!”Imagine – A Christian who is not filled with hatred!There are a lot of them out there. I used to be one.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Ted -Thanks for your post on Carlin. It reminded me of what I loved about the guy.Unlike you, Carlin’s take on life resonated with me. He made excellent points about the fake national weeping over Columbine, the ineffectiveness of our current placebo airport security and America’s sorry obsession with death and violence (which feeds its overwhelming embrace of religion as a hoped for get-out-of-jail-free card to keep one’s own person safe from said violence).Carlin’s humor was sometimes laugh-out-loud funny, but much of his humor was dry and wry. One doesn’t necessarily laugh out loud at wry. Often, wry humor produces and inner chuckle that leads to a new perspective.Carlin was the antidote to an America that feeds at the the teat of the bland, laugh-track prompted slop bucket that is situation comedy. I’m sure that the people who didn’t find Carlin funny are also the people he just happened to skewer so effectively: the Republicans, the über-patriots, the religious and those on the left and right who were so full of themselves.Who but Carlin could open each show with a loud, “Eff you!” to his gathered audience…and to have them eating out of his hand from that point forward?

  • Wiglaf

    Ted-He joked that inside every cynic is a disappointed idealist. The George Carlin I will always remember is the young man recalling his Catholic school days, his struggles, those of his classmates, to be respectful, engaged, while bored to death. “Father,” he asked, “If God is all powerful, could he make a rock so big that even he couldn’t move it?”You had to be there.

  • Paganplace

    Not to mention ‘Victoria,’ (Latin, but possibly not ancient,) and ‘Pamela’ (Greek) Just while people are making a fuss about Obama (Kenyan) sounding like ‘Osama’ (Arabic) when mabe they could be flipping out cause John McCain is *clearly named after the martian Manhunter and a son of Cain, thus a follower of Lilith.Chill?

  • Arminius

    A bit off topic, but still about comedy.Has anyone here looked into Pastafarinaism, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? I just read about it on Wikipedia, and have not laughed so hard in a long, long time. It is a comedy triumph!

  • VICTORIA

    i just watched larry king’s tribute interview with comedians for george carlin- go to 1:04- george talks about god for a minute- around 7 minutes into it- he ends with his take on – well- you know- (i didn’t know that he was the first host) the first SNL i saw as in nyc seodn broadcast- i still stand 100% with my original opinion june 23- 7:10pm bye george

  • Paganplace

    ” daniel:”I call you a Christ-hater because you hate Christ.”Didn’t yer man there warn you about trying to judge other people’s hearts?As in so many things, some of you guys have a funny way of showing ‘love.’

  • Mr Mark

    Looks like Spidey is back to signing in under different monikers again. His latest is “Gristian.” That’s a new one to me. I notice that Gristian made his first appearance as a support for Karen, our latest troll. It’s to be expected. As Spidey finds absolutely no one on this blog supporting him, he has to invent others to carry his water.How soon before Gristian or Karen or another Anonymous uses the phrase “soil into brain,” thus giving away Spidey’s true identity?

  • wiccan

    MMA, PaganPlace. Does it seem to you that daniel bears a great resemblence to the unlamented Frank Collins?

  • Anonymous

    “These are the posters compelled to posts repeatedly for hours on end- because if they can’t shoutdown an opposing view- they intend to to appear to win by outlasting and outposting.”Daniel got it right. I’m a new reader here and unfortunately some posters are spending way too much time pouring over old posts and work way too hard to be the last poster. Instead of bringing forward a worthwhile discussion- they are just mudslinging miscreants with no social skill who squat and dominate the threads.Make a note, wapo. Your blog is ON FAITH and no one coming here will want to read this hogpen droppings.

  • Arminius

    Hi Wiccan, Paganplace, Mr Mark,Looks like an incursion of assorted trolls. Where’s my woad and claymore? And, more important, where the hell did my Guinness go?Arminius

  • Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia

    Wow! George Carlin is great! My heartfelt condolences to all who are sure to miss him dreadfully.

  • wiccan

    Hi, Arminius! Don’t think these trolls are worthy of the woad and claymore, but the Guiness sounds like a good idea. I’m going to have to go with Oak Barrel Stout, tho; Guiness is the competition. :-)

  • Paganplace

    Hee, a Guinness would be good this evening. Budget, girl, budget. :) Guess it doesn’t much matter what names they use, when they always say the same thing. ;)

  • Jihadist

    Dim bulbs, lessser lights, Enlightened twits, and now brights. We should all be blinded by the light of the brights.And why in the world do they have to call themselves “brights”? Cheers

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Farnaz -Thanks for the expansion on the term Brights.I think it sucks as a moniker. It is pretentious, even if that’s not its intention. It’s weak and cloying. Dennett and Dawkins adopting the term just goes to prove that no one bats a thousand.There’s no question that atheists need a more-positive word to describe themselves. Hopefully, a word will emerge organically, as did the word “gay” for the homosexual community. Paul Geisert and Myrna Futrell did about what I’d expect from a couple of academics – they came up with a word that few like-minded people are rallying behind while insulting plenty of people outside of said group. We atheists would be better off hiring a marketing firm to come up with something to replace atheist as a moniker. This particular challenge lies outside of the discipline of the academics.

  • Jihadist

    It’s the low sparks of the brights to come out with brights. No politically appealing and have no branding or marketing savvy at all. Agnostics and freethinkers and secular humanists seems happy with their self-designations. So are believers with those and the term atheist too. How about “contratheists” to cover both athiests and anti-theists who are passionate against believers and beliefs? Sounds revolutiony enough to fight to bring “freedom” from religions as gleaned by the figthing spirit of the non-believers against believers and beliefs? Mao Zedong : – A revolution is not a dinner party. Jihhy Zedong : – A revolution is not a new brand name to be marketed, revolutionary though is the thought. Cheers

  • Farnaz

    Re: “Brights”HItchens thinks the word offensive to “believers” and dislikes it. I think Wikepedia explains why Geisert wishes to keep it.”Bright” is not a synonym for “atheist.” Suggest those interested visit the site and see Wikepedia.

  • VICTORIA

    au contraire karen- not only do i find E.’s uestions sincere- i find them quite often very thought provoking- i’ve been thinking for 2 days about E FAVORITE’S query of SOJA- soja said- real faith is strengthened when tested- i’ll steal half of soja’s statement- mother teresa didn’t become an atheist- but she did question- as did george- as do i- hopefully without hurting too many feelings in the process- im going to think about the answer to that question- i can say for certain the answer isn’t 42- but that’s about it at this point- i want to answer it without a bunch of boring self centered personal anecdotes- but so far that seems to be all ive got-

  • Arminius

    Victoria,”Faith strengthened when tested – “Yes. These blogs have tested my faith, and it has lasted, and is stronger. E Fav and Mr Mark have been instrumental in that, and I owe them thanks.As I said to Jihadist once, my journey in faith is the core meaning of ‘jihad’, an inner struggle. It has been a rocky road. But one filled with light. And filled with good people, whether of my faith, other faiths, or no faith. I met a lot of them right here.Arminius

  • E Favorite

    Victoria – thanks for thinking about my question. I’ll look forward to your response when you’re ready.Arminius – now I’ll pose it to you too. How has questioning strengthened your faith?Mr Mark – I agree that alternative names for atheist need to be market tested. Here are a couple of names I’d want to throw in the mix. For atheist: super-free. For believer: super-pro.

  • E Favorite

    To the Anon who said this: “Arminius is merely trying very hard to please all in the name of Christian love and berating those who are able to look at facts with objectivity and agree to disagree without compromising truth.”can you give me examples of the facts you are speaking of?

  • karen

    E. Favorite-Your ability to spark a conversation is severely limited.Quit it with the repetitive weaseling questions. Its boring.SNORE..ZZZZZZZ…

  • E Favorite

    Karen – I’ve found one of the most interesting aspects of “On Faith” to be the discussions that ensue when people ask each other what they mean.It’s also interesting to see how people’s personalities come through. In this thread, for instance, “Friend” comes across to me as open, kind, fair and curious.

  • Fate

    RNH wrote: “It’s amazing to me that people miss the love of God by holding Christians and Christianity to a standard they would never hold anything else to.”Ah the other aspect of religion, the persecution complex. You make the extraordinary claim that God exists with no evidence, and when asked why you would believe with no evidence you say that is too high a standard and atheists should instead prove God does not exist. Yet scientists proving evolution, the age of the universe, the earth’s formation and life’s origin using scientific methods are not only called wrong, they are called conspirators against belief in God. Sorry, but Christians are not held to a higher standard, instead they hold everyone else as wrong, no matter what the evidence says. The Christian standard is Christianity as the only way to live no matter what.RNH wrote: “It’s really because they, in the end, can’t live to God’s standard that matters, do you not agree? The atonement solves all of that.”God’s standard as defined by Christians requires belief. That is something that you cannot ask of people who have no evidence of God. But you seem to be also saying they cannot live up to God’s vision of goodness, charity, and love. I disagree. I know many atheists who are more charitable and good than some Christians. That does not make Christians better or worse as people, it just shows to me you do not need to believe in God to be a good person. Do you agree?RNH wrote: “It’s just an excuse NOT to believe in that one event we all know as Christians – represents the way to God. The premise always starts with ” God can’t be there”…..”No, it starts with “There is no evidence of God, Allah, Spaghetti Monster or other gods, so these myths should not come into consideration.” That does not mean the bible or quran does not have good stories and lessons which we can learn from to become better people. I find the bible a good source of such lessons, that and Aesop’s Fables, which I read my children. Once you believe there is only one way to be good your logic will define lack of belief as bad, and consequences can result from that. Consider how religion can lead to hate. That is the danger atheists see in all religions, with some Islamists being the most recent example but not the only example as anyone not Christian in the bible belt can attest to.

  • Mr Mark

    RNH writes:”It’s amazing to me that people miss the love of God by holding Christians and Christianity to a standard they would never hold anything else to.”You. Just. Don’t. Get. It.We hold Xianity to the SAME standard we hold everything else.That is where Xianity comes up short. That is why it can’t be considered truth. The “truths” of Xianity cannot compete with the truths of reality, the proven facts of science and the awful delimiter of truth that is logic and reason. Xianity – and all beliefs in the supernatural – need a special pleading to make their case, a pleading reality doesn’t ask for and doesn’t need.Xians call this special pleading many things, and demonstrate it every day in their lives: dispensationalism; faith; miracles; ancient knowledge; god knows; cherry picking the Bible; willful ignorance of scientific fact; etc. No, RNH, your Biblical truth and knowledge can’t stand up to the standards of truth and knowledge that it takes to refine a gallon of gas or to design a computer. Your “truths” are on the level of fable and fairy tale. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t messages to hear and lessons to be learned from these fables, but to imagine that their supernatural underpinnings are the stuff of history and reality are the beliefs of fools.Be happy in your foolishness, RNH. You truly are a fool for Christ.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear E Fav -I’m afraid that Karen may be another troll. She hasn’t added a thing to the conversation since her first couple of posts. Since then, it’s been nothing but named calling and drive-bys.Kill-file fare for sure.

  • Pam

    Thanks, RNH, for mentioning “dispensationalism.” I hadn’t heard of it before, and had to look it up. I found it profoundly disturbing.I didn’t know, for instance, that you believe that in the millennium of Christ’s kingdom on Earth, that O.T. laws will be reinstituted, and animal sacrifices will resume. Wow, what a party! I’m very glad to be missing that one.What I *didn’t* find, was any way that dispensationalism makes the questions that Mr. Mark asked (the ones you repeated in your post) any less pertinent. Do you even understand them?Either the Bible is the literal inspired word of God, or it *isn’t*. You can’t have it both ways. If Paul made it up all by himself (presumably with due diligence to Christianity as he understood it), then the thinking and the limitations of the times in which he lived are understandably reflected. If, however, the rules he’s laying down are straight from the horse’s mouth, as it were, then they should apply in all times, to all peoples. So which is it?

  • Mr Mark

    Re: Carlin saying he wasn’t an atheist.Big deal. Atheist is a societal term that is applied to non-believers. It’s not a term that is necessarily embraced by non-believers. Nobody likes to be defined by what they aren’t. That’s why some non-believers are trying (lamely, IMO) to have the term “brights” adopted as the moniker for non-believers (happily, it looks like this pretentious term – which was thought up by a couple of academics – is not sticking). I’ve posted on this blog that I’m with Christopher Hitchens in self-identifying as an anti-theist when it comes to matters religious. However, that term doesn’t define me as a person. It only defines my views on religion and non-belief in gods.It doesn’t bother me that people call me an atheist, even though that particular term is less-precise than the term anti-theist.In Carlin’s case, one need only look at his many performances and interviews to be assured that he didn’t believe in the gods of the world’s religions. At the same time, he allowed room that there could be some kind of big intelligence out there that had yet to reveal itself to him. That’s a very scientific approach to embrace.If the Xians feel the need to consider such a non-committed view of “god” to be proof of Carlin’s having faith or being religious, then good luck with that. Just don’t come crying to mama when his diary or some other document or video turns up and Carlin post-mortem states unequivocally that he considered himself an atheist. It may not be as earth shattering as were the revelations about Mother Teresa last year, but at least we could expect the writing to be more engaging coming from Carlin.

  • Gristian

    Kill-file fare for sure:Mr. Mark…and counting.

  • Anonymous

    Thus even the brilliant Muslim Jihadist, the most popular blogger, whose father happens to be a native Indonesian Muslim and husband a native Malaysian Muslim, always refers to any achievement of Indonesians and Malaysians as Muslim achievement although those peoples were Buddhists and Hindus for many centuries and influenced also by the culture of China and their colonial masters. It is all Muslim and all credit is given to Islam.

  • Anonymous

    E Favorite:”Arminius is supposedly a Christian!”Imagine – A Christian who is not filled with hatred!There are a lot of them out there. I used to be one.June 28, 2008 11:44 PM***************A Christian who should take the trouble to get the details of history right. Referring to facts is not hatred and make-believe history is not love.

  • Anonymous

    E Favourite, Arminius is merely trying very hard to please all in the name of Christian love and berating those who are able to look at facts with objectivity and agree to disagree without compromising truth.

  • Reasonable not hateful

    Hey Fate, that’s interesting- all this complexity came to be from random combinations of molecules,you call evolution, and in biology, mankind came to be from this invisible force you call natural selection, where matter is miraculously arranged so that humans are the result. Mr Mark thinks , as some scientists do, that some of the genetics came from the big bang dispersion of matter in the universe. Let’s see, we have this planet, with just the right orbit, tilt, distance from the sun, water , matter, etc to support plant and animal life, change of seasons, etc etc. Complex humans evolved from this that now have very complicated sub systems(the brain, eyes, digestive system, sexual organs, ability to think and reason, with a conscience, etc)And you come to the conclusion against that one law of thermodynamics, that this matter just “happened” and perhaps give the excuse that the universe is not a closed system so that is why it is happening the way it does.Sorry, there has to be SOMETHING that has creative force doing all of this.I suppose you call Macro evolution fact too- right? Even though no one has observed this or can prove it to the level you hold proving God to.It is interesting discussion for sure.Well, its back to work and off of vacation. I’ll visit when I can…. back to my rock as Mr Mark would say.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear RNH -You asked me if I believed that Socrates existed, and if so, why not Jesus. I have an answer for you, so please, read it carefully:There are no writings or biographies of Socrates extant. We only know of him through the writings of others, like the dialogues of Plato. Was Socrates a creation of Plato? That’s entirely possible. Most scholars assert that the earlier dialogues are authentic while the later ones are suspect.So, there is no concrete evidence that Socrates existed. My feeling is that he probably did exist, but that there is the possibility he was a fictional person. I give it a 50-50 chance.So, let’s look at Jesus. We also have no writings by him, no contemporaneous writings about him by others. We have nothing in the historic record at all that Jesus existed. It’s entirely possible that he was a total fabrication of the Gospel writers. Or, he may have been a real historic figure whose story was embellished by later writers.If this was all the comparison that one could make between Jesus and Socrates, then I would say that the chances that either existed was 50-50.But I don’t think Jesus existed, and here’s why:1. Claim of divinity, Unlike Socrates, Jesus claimed he was god incarnate. The writers of the NT make the same claim. As I don’t believe in gods at all, that claim makes me suspect the truthfulness of the people making it.2. Similarity of Jesus to other pagan gods. Socrates – real or not – was a unique individual and a very human individual. Jesus, on the other hand, has a life story that is cobbled together from OT verses and the traits of the pagan gods who were around at that time. The traits of his parents also resemble the traits of virgin gods who gave birth to gods. His mother being impregnated by a god is also a trait of the pagan gods. Whether real or not, the baggage surrounding the Jesus story is there NOT to make him seem unique to the ancients, but to make him more acceptable to them. Jesus had the traits that all the pagan gods had.3. Writings of Paul v the Gospels. Paul’s writings on Jesus very much present Jesus as a spirit god, not as a corporeal god. Pauls’ writings preceded the Gospels. Mark was first Gospel written, and it is clearly an allegorical fiction, not a history. Matthew and Luke are based on Mark. Each in its way ham-handedly attempts to weave a corporeal life onto Mark’s allegorical Jesus.The Gospels also present a number of “historic” events for which their is no proof, like the Roman census and the massacre of the innocents. These poor attempts to add historic verisimilitude fall flat. They are bad tries to convert a religious allegory (Mark) into a historic life (Jesus). 4. The early church had many different ideas about who Jesus was or wasn’t. Many – like Paul – didn’t believe in a corporeal Jesus. The fact that Paul never mentions a word about Jesus’ life is very suspect. Does it make sense to believe that Paul would have avoided mentioning these things had Jesus actually lived on earth a mere 20 years before Paul wrote his epistles? So, when I look at Socrates v Jesus, I would say that there’s almost no chance Jesus existed, because too much of his story is a reworking and amalgamation of the stories of other pagan gods. This isn’t a problem you have with Socrates. I’d say there’s not much chance Jesus existed as the people who eventually wrote about him (after Paul, that is) felt the need to treat him like an incarnate god, even though everything and anything they may have known about him was pure hearsay.Add it up, and the existence of Socrates seems more likely for the simple fact that his existence is more mundane. To believe that Jesus existed as portrayed in the Bible is ludicrous. To believe he existed as just a man and nothing more is possible, I suppose, but the likelihood is diminished by the reliance on the supernatural element to tell his story, both in his supposed deity and in the elements that made up his life.Gotta go.

  • Mr Mark

    RNH writes:”Let’s see, we have this planet, with just the right orbit, tilt, distance from the sun, water , matter, etc to support plant and animal life, change of seasons, etc etc. Complex humans evolved from this that now have very complicated sub systems(the brain, eyes, digestive system, sexual organs, ability to think and reason, with a conscience, etc)”Surely you know that NONE of what you wrote above has been true for most of Earth’s history, don’t you? Do you not know that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old? That the Earth’s rotation was once so fast that a day lasted only 6 hours? That the planet’s surface was molten rock for millions of years? The the temperature on the Earth’s surface was thousands of degrees? That there was no oxygen in the atmosphere? That there was no water on the planet for millions and maybe billions of years? That man and most life forms that have lived on this planet would not have been able to exist under the environmental conditions that were a reality for billions of years? That the tilt of the Earth has changed over those billions of years?Did you know that we know all of this through geological evidence?Your “Goldilocks” scenario for Earth is false, false FALSE. Do you not know that we have TODAY physical proof of how eyes and brains evolve? Do you not know that the evolutionary predictions for how the eye could have evolved have been proven true through the discovery of living species who have eyes in various states of development?Your scientific knowledge is woefully inadequate. You need to learn a few basic things…or continue to embarrass yourself on these subjects. The choice is yours.

  • Mr Mark

    Victoria writes:”In common usage, the word theory is often used to signify a CONJECTURE, an OPINION, a SPECUALTION, or a HYPOTHESIS.”Yes, and that specific definition is NOT the definition one uses in a scientific context.For the thousandth time, here is the definition for theory as it appears in Merriam-Webster, Pay particular attention to Nos 1, 3 & 5:”1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another2: abstract thought : speculation3: the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art 4 a: a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action b: an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances —often used in the phrase in theory5: a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena 6 a: a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b: an unproved assumption : conjecture c: a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject “Do you get it, Victoria? Words have different definitions when used in different contexts. Holding that the word “theory” when used in a scientific context denotes conjecture or speculation is a demonstration of either willful ignorance or abject mendacity. The fact that this strategy is oft-employed by Xians adds nothing to the veracity of the argument. Rather, it indicts the proponents of the argument, exposing them for what they are, ie: idiots or liars.Here’s a little exercise that may help you understand that the same word can have a different meaning depending on context. Read the following sentence, Victoria:”I know that I can open this can with a can opener.”OK, Vicky – what is the definition of the word “can” in the above sentence? Does the word possibly have more than one meaning in the context of this sentence, or will a single meaning for the word suffice?Thanks in advance for your response.

  • Fate

    Victoria wrote: “- your statement-”Evolution is a scientific theory which means it is a tested hypothesis which can make reliable and verified predictions.” well, one immediately has to ask- *********what predictions????”Well, how about that man is decended from apes, or that dinosaurs and birds are related. These were predicted long before verification came in the form of fossils and protein/DNA analysis. Victoria wrote: “you are confusing theory with proven facts- or knowledge-”No, I’m not.Victoria wrote: “In common usage, the word theory is often used to signify a CONJECTURE, an OPINION, a SPECUALTION, or a HYPOTHESIS. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on FACTS; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality.”No, a hypothesis is a hypothesis. I thought that was obvious. A theory is a tested hypothesis, tested enough to be established as verified. From Dictionary.com: ‘A theory in technical use is a more or less verified or established explanation accounting for known facts or phenomena’.Victoria wrote: “…and evolution theory uses occam’s razor “one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything”Occams razor is rarely used in evolution except to eliminate the absurd, like kangaroos hopped from Mt. Ararat to Australia after a great flood. For instance, the debate about dinosaurs relatedness to birds was a heated debate in evolutionary circles. It was a hypothesis based on fossil evidence but was far from conclusive. The protein evidence recently found verified that hypothesis. Dinosaurs and birds ARE related. Just how related and where in the evolutionary tree is still up for hypotheses. But the relatedness of birds and dinosaurs was not determined by ocams razor. You do not seem to understand the scientific method very well.Victoria wrote: “and amazingly- so do believers!”I don’t see believers using occams razor. They use blinders, ignoring evidence that does not support their belief, and embracing evidence that does. It is not occams razor, it is delusion. For example, some do not accept the age of the universe to be 14 billion years old, instead believing it to be 6000, but they do embrace the big bang as evidence of God’s creation, even though it had to have happened 14 billion years ago, which they refuse to believe. As I said, blind delusion.Victoria wrote: “This is a view shared by Isaac Asimov. In Understanding Physics, Asimov spoke of theories as “arguments” where one deduces a “scheme” or model. Arguments or theories always begin with some premises—”arbitrary elements” as Hawking calls them (see above)—which are here described as “assumptions”. A theory is far from an assumption. A theory is a proven tool to explain observations. The theory of gravity is separate from the fact of gravity. And so the theory of evolution is separate from the facts of evolution. The theories attempt to explain the observation. You cannot deny the evidence for evolution any more than you can deny the evidence for gravity. The fossils, the radiometric dating results, the anthropolical studies of layered deposits, the use of evolutionary theory to posit a transitional form, then have that fossil found. For example, one area where a transitional fossil was hard to find was the transition from fish to land dwelling animals. The mudskipper is a modern day transitional fish, but how it happened millenia ago was not found in the fossil record, until recently:Asimov was a science fiction writer, a great one, but he was not a scientist. He talked about the book ‘I Robot’, where the robot had a “positronic brain”. When asked why a robot would need a positronic brain he replied that the positron (an anti-electron) had just been discovered and so he used it because it was a new scientific term, not because he understood anything of the science of positrons. Be careful Victoria when using science fiction to argue against science. I could use comic books to argue just as effectively against the bible or kuran, which you should notice I do not do.

  • Arminius

    “I know that I can open this can with a can opener.”hmmmm…To go just by sound for multiple use:Or, to rewrite:Just thought I’d play with words a little bit – have I bit off more than I can chew?Arminius

  • Pam

    Anonymous (Victoria? With capitals and punctuation?) says that the relationship between dinosaurs and birds has been “scientifically disproven” and as proof cites Michael Denton, father of Intelligent Design and senior fellow of the Discovery Institute, and Christian Schwabe of whom it is written: …molecular biology validates the already impressive evidence Puh-leeze!Note also that both statements are about were made in the mid-80s, when comparative DNA studies were in their infancy – no genomes had yet been sequenced. DNA has only served to reinforce all of the relationships formerly postulated by comparative anatomy. I could recommend several good books, but I know you’d never read them.

  • Fate

    Anonymous wrote: “America’s citizens have ALWAYS been majority Christian and our government was crafted and founded by majority believers.”Yet they, wisely, separated church from government. Why?Anonymous wrote: “Statistically- the only group that might one day challenge Christianity for majority in America- is Islam.”Muslims make up 0.6% of Americans, Christians comprise abuot 88%. There are 15% jews in America, 25 times more than Muslims, yet you feel Muslims are the ones challenging christianity. You either do not know the numbers or someone filled you with irrational fear. My guess is both.Anonymous wrote: “Should that happen we will no longer be a democracy.”Your understanding of American demographics and Muslims and democracy is weak at best. Maybe you should fly to Instanbul during the next Turkish election and see how a 99% Muslim nation elects its leaders democratically.

  • Farnaz

    Mr. Mark writes: We atheists would be better off hiring a marketing firm to come up with something to replace atheist as a moniker. None of the current monikers–free thinker, secular humanist, rationalist, etc., etc., really suits a lot of us.The same is true for those who are members of organized religious intstitutions. I have generally reserved “religionists” for those seeking to legislate the views of their religious institutions. However, there is a distinct difference between organized religions, and other spiritual belief systems, which generally don’t have high-paid lobbyists buying off Congress. When one belongs to an institutionalized religion, whether or not s/he supports all its tenets, is s/he not participating tacitly in its agenda?I wonder if “believer” and “religionist” are, to some extent, a false dichotomy, and, perhaps, we need a third term.——————-1870, “one who professes that the existence of a First Cause and the essential nature of things are not and cannot be known.” Coined by T.H. Huxley from Gk. agnostos “unknown, unknowable,” from a- “not” + gnostos “(to be) known” (see gnostic). Sometimes said to be a reference to Paul’s mention of the altar to “the Unknown God,” but according to Huxley it was coined with ref. to the early Church movement known as Gnosticism (see Gnostic).”I … invented what I conceived to be the appropriate title of ‘agnostic,’ … antithetic to the ‘Gnostic’ of Church history who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant.” [T.H. Huxley, "Science and Christian Tradition," 1889]

  • Paganplace

    “Anonymous wrote: “Statistically- the only group that might one day challenge Christianity for majority in America- is Islam.”And given how not-bloody likely *that* is, the clear and present danger to our democracy is elements of radical *Christianity,* claiming that any show of tolerance toward 0.6 percent of the population is some mortal threat, as opposed of course, to the people *they* elect who gut the Constitution.

  • Farnaz

    Whoops!Here is the etymology of “atheist.” atheist

  • Mr Mark

    Anonymous wrote: “America’s citizens have ALWAYS been majority Christian and our government was crafted and founded by majority believers.”Fate replied:That’s a point that hasn’t been made enough in the many discussions here.To bring it back to a discussion of George Carlin, one of Carlin’s HBO specials had a routine about Americans having rights. Carlin believed that Americans didn’t have rights, but only temporary privileges. As proof, he offered the lesson of history taught by the 1942 internment of American citizens because they had Japanese parents. Their “rights” meant nothing as they were summarily suspended and 110,000 of them were marched off into the gulags. As Carlin so aptly observed, “just when their rights were most needed, they were taken away.”Today, it is made even clearer that we as Americans have no rights. The suspension of habeus corpus by the bushistas is a good example. Rights cannot be suspended. Privileges can be. The hallmark of a democratic people is that they defend the equal rights of ALL in the WORST of times. What a sorry nation it is when rights are only operational for all in the best of times! Our country has learned nothing from what it did to is citizens of Japanese heritage. Rather than hold our rights dear, we drop them at the SLIGHTEST provocation. In so doing, we shame the memory and wisdom of our founders who boldly stood for rights when doing so meant their own necks were on the line.To cower in front of our enemies, suspending our rights and making noises that the Xian majority is waiting in the wings to “take back unto themselves” the rights that were guaranteed for all is chilling.Gotta go.

  • E Favorite

    Anon: “So- sit down little man and quit telling half-truths and lies.”Hey – same to you.The country has always been majority Christian in population and has always been a secular democracy as its form of government. The founders were all pre-industrial revolution white male land owners who wore powdered wigs and knickers – not germane to the government they established. Our government is not Christian any more than it’s a government of powdered wigged, kicker-wearing landowning white guys without cell phones.

  • Arminius

    Anonymous,1,209 mosques? Is that supposed to be scary? There are many times that number of churches in the Atlanta area alone. There are probably more pastafarians than Muslims. The Muslims I have known are really decent people, and would make fine neighbors.Why do you need a group to fear in order to justify yourself? This is not what Jesus taught.

  • Pam

    Victoria,On the basis of comparative anatomy, and later of the discovery of fossils of intermediate species, humans have long been supposed to have had a common ancestor with the great apes. However, chimpanzees and gorillas have 48 chromosomes (24 pairs), and humans have only 46 (23 pairs). How could this be explained? Nature never throws out an entire chromosome – that would be fatal.The prediction therefore, was that when the human chromosomes were examined, we would find that two of them had fused (two of the haploid number, that is – producing four fused chromosomes in any individual’s diploid number)or that there had been a fission (breaking apart of one chromosome into two) in the apes.Guess what was found? Chromosomes have a typical structure – on each end there is a sequence of bases called a telomere (controls the number of times that a chromosome can replicate itself); in the center, there is another sequence called a centrosome, where chromosome pairs “dock” with each other during meiosis. The second chromosome in humans has a telomeric sequence on each end, and one in the middle. It also has two centrosomic sequences – one in each half. Exactly what you’d expect from two chromosomes joined end-to-end. Exactly as predicted.You also jumped on the description of the dinosaur proteins and the chicken proteins as “similar.” After hundreds of millions of years, it would be quite remarkable if they were exactly the same. Not to mention that chickens are *not* dinosaurs, but only the descendants thereof. The similarity was close enough that it supported all the other evidence (and there’s much of that) for the relationship.

  • Paganplace

    Oooh, spooky, twelve hundred mosques… Do you have any idea how big this country is?On average, you might have to drive a hundred miles to *find* one, sounds like. There’s more *Pagans* than Muslims in this country, and people keep insisting we shouldn’t have any democratic rights cause we’re so *few.*

  • Mr Mark

    Arminius writes:”To sum it up, there are two uses of ‘can’ in the leading sentence, and that is too many.”Point taken, though not nearly as onerous a faux pas as averring “evolution is ONLY a theory.”

  • Pam

    There are 289,424 Catholic churches in America. There are 73,841 baptist churches. Shall I go on?Anonymous, you are a bigot and a fear-monger.

  • Farnaz

    Jihadist: “We” may stick to whatever “We” we wish, of course. But “we” need not.Atheist/Agnostic: Don’t like the term atheist, never did. Agnostic in the sense intended makes far more sense. Pre- logical postivist, but anticipating….Believer/Religionist: Need rethinkingGotta go. F :)

  • wiccan

    Now I know that “Anonymous” is Frank Collins! It was his trademark that anyone who did not fear Islam had to hate Chritians.Notice that never once does this poster show any evidence that PaganPlace “hates Christians””.

  • Gerry

    Ockham knew it (anno 1400): The most primitive explanation is the “truth”, which is: Goddiddit. A proxy for EVERYTHING: The sun revolves around the earth, which anyone can see every day, as 18% of Americans believe: Unless you become like children…

  • Anonymous

    “And given how not-bloody likely *that* is, the clear and present danger to our democracy is elements of radical *Christianity,* claiming that any show of tolerance toward 0.6 percent of the population is some mortal threat, as opposed of course, to the people *they* elect who gut the Constitution.”Sounds like someone’s not fond of the Christian majority (*they*).. And BTW I’m not “Frank Collins”. Try to refrain from making foolish accusations.

  • TJ

    Yes, a Jesus Lizard sounds good to me too. No need for a schism! The unicorn is perfect for theists as well. A My Little Pony toy with a piece of uncooked macaroni glued to its head would be ideal.Spidey, are you sure it wasn’t your father’s belt that brought you back into line after you had strayed and not the bible?

  • wiccan

    OK, Frank- (you’ll always be Frank in my heart)PP said: “the clear and present danger to our democracy is elements of radical *Christianity,* claiming that any show of tolerance toward 0.6 percent of the population is some mortal threat, as opposed of course, to the people *they* elect who gut the Constitution.”Now, pay attention! “elements of radical *Christianity”, who fear 0.6 of the population (American Muslims), elected people who “gut the Constitution” (George Bush said it was “just a damn piece of paper”). The majority of Christians ARE NOT “elements of radical Christianity”. (Praise the Lady!)You show the same reading comprehension that Frank did.

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Wiccan -People predisposed to not vote for a black man will find all kinds of non-racial excuses to not vote for Obama.Today’s dust-up centers around the remarks Gen Wesley Clark made about John McCain. Clark said yesterday on FtN that McCain’s being shot down as a fighter pilot didn’t qualify him to be president. Bob Schieffer just about fell over himself on that one. Today, Rs are on the attack and Ds are again apologizing.Of course, Gen Clark was absolutely right. Otherwise, one would have to make the claim that any and all fighter pilots who were shot down and held prisoner were equally qualified to become president. The real question is to one’s overall qualifications, and Clark’s observation was made with this in mind.The media acts as if McCain being shot down and being held prisoner IN AND OF ITSELF qualifies him to be president. It doesn’t. McCain did admirable service for his country and displayed heroism in captivity, but that history must be set against myriad other factors in considering whether he is qualified to by president. Those other factors include what McCain has done since his days in Vietnam. That would include the poor judgment he exhibited in the Keating 5 Scandal, the fact that he is daily breaking the very campaign finance laws he helped to author, the fact that he couldn’t be bothered to pay 4 years of property taxes, the fact that he has flip-flopped on numerous issues, not to mention McCain’s ardent support of bush policies that have taken this country down the toilet, and -sadly – his myriad foreign and domestic policy gaffes during the campaign that give rise to concerns that McCain’s mental acuity isn’t up to the needs and the stresses that go with the job.Let’s have the discussion of what qualifies a person to be president. As an Obama supporter, I relish the thought.

  • Arminius

    Fate,This believer and Obama supporter scored 100% on your quiz.

  • Anonymous

    “Now, pay attention! “elements of radical *Christianity”, who fear 0.6 of the population (American Muslims), elected people who “gut the Constitution” (George Bush said it was “just a damn piece of paper”). The majority of Christians ARE NOT “elements of radical Christianity”. (Praise the Lady!)’Try to think this through-If *they* elected Bush- *they* are in majority.Do you have to have an IQ under 100 to be pagan?–No. But it helps.

  • Gerry

    “Made in Germany” was originally (as early as 1887!) intended to keep British buyers from buying products from Germany. It then turned into a recommendation, due to the qualities of the products.”Atheist” or “Godless” could develop similarly, if proudly displayed.

  • Arminius

    Anonymous,No one here can remotely comprehend why you think we should be wetting our pants over 1200 or so mosques and less than 1% Muslim population. You have apparently been denied, either genetically or by being raised in a reality vacuum, the ability to reason.

  • wiccan

    Frsnk-Now you are just being obtuse. Christians represent at least 75% of the American population. True, a majority of Christians must have voted for George Bush. The vote was 62,040,610 for Bush, 59,028,444 for Kerry. Therefore, a majority of Christians also voted AGAINST Bush. However, it is safe to surmise that the “radical elements of Christianity” voted for Bush and against Kerry, making it safe to surmise also that they had no problem with Bush wiping his butt with the Constitution, as long as he kept them safe from the 0.6% of the American population that are Muslims.Now, how is pointing out that the “radical elements of Christianity” voted for Bush proof of hatred towards all Christians?

  • E Favorite

    Fate – loved your quiz – did you make that up yourself? I got them all right! But then I’m a high-info voter who’s also an Obama fan.Anon – Some of my best friends are in the Christian majority, including myself until just recently. It’s the Christian right that a lot of people have a problem with – including a lot of Christians.

  • Anonymous

    OKFirst you say-The majority of Christians ARE NOT “elements of radical Christianity”.Then-A majority of Christians must have voted for George Bush. Then-A majority of Christians also voted AGAINST Bush.Then you-surmise that the “radical elements of Christianity” voted for Bush and against Kerry.And you also surmise that all Christians are registered voters..Is this a joke or are you really this impaired?

  • Jihadist

    Hello Gerry: :) Gerry : Well, even Jihadist can’t keep her “proverbial” intellectual level all the time. * I never claimed to be an intellectual. It is a dirty word in Asia. So is PhD – said as Permanent Head Damage. Did you not say I have a concrete mind? I’m quite happy about that in fact. Gerry : To use the cheapest available bias against a country of which you obviously know nothing except some malpronounced, misspelled platitudes and slurs, seasoned with an incomprehensible silliness (Germany and Martin Luther King???)* Got you there on Martin Luther King (the African-American leader) and Martin Luther (the anti-Papal and anti-Papist, eh? Reeks a little bit of Hitler reacting to Jesse Owen’s win at the 1936 Berlin Summer Olympics. * Germany doth deserve my mini-slurs every now and then. After all, my maternal grandmother was an Ashkenazi Jew from Munich who made her way to Amsterdam. She survived some types of Germans against her type of people. Gerry : … (a slur turning into a recommendation) may be excused only with a night with very, very little sleep, dear godful Jihadist!”* My time zone is different from yours. I’m awake while you’re sleeping. So, some recommended reading for you: – Black Skin, White Masks – Frantz FanonIf only because they are really widely read in the third world and the Muslim world. No one is quite reading Nietzsche out here. Nothing anti-German about that, but only to read something else and something more than from just Germany.We go a long way to go don’t we, on concrete minds? Cheers

  • Arminius

    Anonymous,I see a lot of global madness. The local variety here in the States is your type.As E Favorite so rightly said, “It’s the Christian right that a lot of people have a problem with – including a lot of Christians.” This Christian agrees with that.

  • Mr Mark

    Spidey sez:”All animals are perfect. They don’t need to evolve to be “more perfect”. There is no such phrase and as usual only idiots would entertain such an idea.”Of course, this is the claim that is made by religionists. NO scientist – especially those who specialize in evolutionary science – makes a claim that evolution is leading to some kind of perfection in life forms. To quote Spidey, “There is no such phrase in scientific circles.”The truth is, what may seem “perfect” now may be quite imperfect later. Any life form “perfectly” evolved to take advantage of Earth’s atmosphere will find itself quite “imperfect” if the gases making up that atmosphere change dramatically in a short time. Ask any dinosaur you meet whether he felt he was “perfectly” evolved to deal with the climate changes that happened 65-million years ago.And Spidey’s an “engineer.”CHOO-CHOO! All aboard Spidey’s Idiots Express!Typical stupid religionist, that Spidey, setting up a straw man and then proceeding to knock him down.

  • Arminius

    Anon,Just who the hell is spineless here? I do stand firmly for what I believe, and it is rooted in the Gospels.Where are your roots, except for mindless, unexplained frothing at the mouth about non-existing enemies? You site no biblical sources, just generalities, despite, and hatred. Your arguments are senseless flatulence.

  • Arminius

    Hi, Paganplace and Wiccan,Glad you are here, hope you still are.

  • Farnaz

    RE: Elections & relgio/ethnic matters: a nonmeditationThe simple fact as another blogger put it on another thread is that the overwhelming majority in this “secular” country are cultural or practicing Christians (generically). So, it behoves said Christians who support Obama to stop concerning themselves with the minute Jewish vote, and, more recently, the minute Muslim vote. Said Christians, whether secular/cultural or practicing will elect the next president. Jews are overwhelmingly Democratic, btw., and always have voted Democratic in presidential elections, as most know. NOt that it matters, as the Christians will elect the next president just as they elected all the past ones, including the wretch currently in the whitehouse.Instead of looking for false obstacles from Jewish bogeymen, the Christians who support Obama should start “converting” amongst their own.Jihadist: Frantz Fanon: Well, it doesn’t get much better. Edward Said I have mixed feelings about, but admit he was an extremely important thinker. Neitsche, too bad he isn’t read in your part of the world. In some ways, he began the postmodern critiqe, saw through the bull.

  • wiccan

    Frank, how can anyone with wit enough to draw breath be that stupid?Let’s take it slow.1. An American must register to vote.2. A majority of Americans are Christian.3. Therefore, a majority of registered voters are Christian. (I did not say all Christians are registered voters. Read more carefully.)4. If the majority of registered American voters are Christian, then, of the votes that either candidate received, the majority of those votes for either candidate had to be by registered Christians. (Still with me?)5. The “radical elements of Chritianity” should be defined as white fundamentalist Christians, more commonly known as the “religious right”.6. In the 2004 election, approximately 78% of those voters who identified themselves as “the religious right” voted for George Bush, which means the majority (78% compared to 22%) voted against Kerry.Now, before I let go of your hand, take a couple of deep breaths. Your brain needs all the oxygen it can get.

  • Anonymous

    “the Christians who support Obama should start “converting” amongst their own.’Lets see- that will be the Christians for abortion and gay marriage. I’ll try to make sure someone calls all three of them.

  • Arminius

    Anon,Jesus is the Son of Man, the Son of God. God is love. Jesus is love. The words of our Risen Lord speak for themselves. Neither revelation nor the OT are necessary for understanding.I am Episcopal. We have a gay bishop, and I have no problem with that. Go figure.And I do not really give a rat’s a** what you think.

  • Farnaz

    Hello Gerry: :) Jihadist:* I never claimed to be an intellectual. It is a dirty word in Asia. So is PhD – said as Permanent Head Damage. Did you not say I have a concrete mind? I’m quite happy about that in fact. Farnaz: I have always thought that doctoral degrees made people stupid, and continue this way of thinking. However, I have recently concluded that stupidity is also common among those who don’t hold advanced degrees.Jihadist:* Got you there on Martin Luther King (the African-American leader) and Martin Luther (the anti-Papal and anti-Papist, eh? Reeks a little bit of Hitler reacting to Jesse Owen’s win at the 1936 Berlin Summer Olympics. Farnaz: Actually, it wasn’t Owens that Hitler snubbed, but that is irrelevant. What interests me is that the only two Jews on the 1936 US track team, Marty Glickman and Sam Stoller, were replaced by Jesse Owens and Ralph Metcalfe, although there was no question that Glickman and Stoller could win. So certain was the team that a number protested to Avery Brundage, including Jesse Owens. Indeed, it was Owens who argued most forcefully that Glickman and Stoller be allowed to compete.However the pro-Nazi, racist white Christian Brundage thought that blacks would be less offensive to Hitler than Jews. This was not the case, although it did allow Catholic Adolf to say that there had been no contest as “animals” had competed against men.This would, by the way, be the same anti-Jewish Racist Brundage of Munich Jewish Athlete murders fame.What do antisemites have in common, as a “demographic,” or at least, what did they have in common, until recently?Farnaz: Speaking of Martin Luther, have you read “The Jews and Their Lies”? A great favorite of Adolf (Hitler, that is).Jihadist:* Germany doth deserve my mini-slurs every now and then. After all, my maternal grandmother was an Ashkenazi Jew from Munich who made her way to Amsterdam. She survived some types of Germans against her type of people. Farnaz: Well, and the Askenazim are not alone. DO NOT FORGET as many do that WWII was a WORLD WAR, visiting hell on earth not only for the Askenazim (although principally them) but for all of us Jews, in the Middle East and in Africa, everywhere. BTW., Does anyone on this thread, aside from thou and moi, know what the difference is between Askenazim and Sfardim?Jihadist; We go a long way to go don’t we, on concrete minds? Farnaz: Were I you, I would thank God several times a day for your concrete mind, so long as it is an open one that takes in information from varied sources, you will never sink into the morass of metaphysics, at least not so deeply as the “abstractionists.”

  • Farnaz

    Hello Gerry: :) Jihadist:* I never claimed to be an intellectual. It is a dirty word in Asia. So is PhD – said as Permanent Head Damage. Did you not say I have a concrete mind? I’m quite happy about that in fact. Farnaz: I have always thought that doctoral degrees made people stupid, and continue this way of thinking. However, I have recently concluded that stupidity is also common among those who don’t hold advanced degrees.Jihadist:* Got you there on Martin Luther King (the African-American leader) and Martin Luther (the anti-Papal and anti-Papist, eh? Reeks a little bit of Hitler reacting to Jesse Owen’s win at the 1936 Berlin Summer Olympics. Farnaz: Actually, it wasn’t Owens that Hitler snubbed, but that is irrelevant. What interests me is that the only two Jews on the 1936 US track team, Marty Glickman and Sam Stoller, were replaced by Jesse Owens and Ralph Metcalfe, although there was no question that Glickman and Stoller could win. So certain was the team that a number protested to Avery Brundage, including Jesse Owens. Indeed, it was Owens who argued most forcefully that Glickman and Stoller be allowed to compete.However the pro-Nazi, racist white Christian Brundage thought that blacks would be less offensive to Hitler than Jews. This was not the case, although it did allow Catholic Adolf to say that there had been no contest as “animals” had competed against men.This would, by the way, be the same anti-Jewish Racist Brundage of Munich Jewish Athlete murders fame.What do antisemites have in common, as a “demographic,” or at least, what did they have in common, until recently?Farnaz: Speaking of Martin Luther, have you read “The Jews and Their Lies”? A great favorite of Adolf (Hitler, that is).Jihadist:* Germany doth deserve my mini-slurs every now and then. After all, my maternal grandmother was an Ashkenazi Jew from Munich who made her way to Amsterdam. She survived some types of Germans against her type of people. Farnaz: Well, and the Askenazim are not alone. DO NOT FORGET as many do that WWII was a WORLD WAR, visiting hell on earth not only for the Askenazim (although principally them) but for all of us Jews, in the Middle East and in Africa, everywhere. BTW., Does anyone on this thread, aside from thou and moi, know what the difference is between Askenazim and Sfardim?Jihadist; We go a long way to go don’t we, on concrete minds? Farnaz: Were I you, I would thank God several times a day for your concrete mind, so long as it is an open one that takes in information from varied sources, you will never sink into the morass of metaphysics, at least not so deeply as the “abstractionists.”

  • Jihadist

    * Made in Germany? Don’t go there. Made in Germany – suerkraut, autobahns, Benz, Daimlers, BMWs, Martin Luther King/Protestanism, Nazism, achtung, aschlug, halt. Gerry : “Atheist” or “Godless” could develop similarly, if proudly displayed.* Godless? But that believers are Godfull people who had long used Godless as as slur, as in, “Those Godless communists!”. The Godfull may yet hurl, “You, God-awful Godless schmucks!” at the Godfree ones. Farnaz : Atheist/Agnostic: Don’t like the term atheist, never did. Agnostic in the sense intended makes far more sense. Pre- logical postivist, but anticipating….* Why not disbelievers as an umbrella term for the Godless and Godfree ones? Well, it would never fly among the disbelieving, unbelieving and non-believing ones, who prefers to be called atheists to agnostics to freethinkers. And yet, disbelievers sould sceptical enough, so….. Farnaz : Believer/Religionist: Need rethinking* Religionists is used by atheists to describe those who adhere to belief in deity/deities and are member of organised religions. Believers are are used by believers themself, especially monotheists as a general term, but prefers to identify themself as Christians (and further identification as Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist etc) Jews (Orthodox, Reformed etc) Muslims (Sunni or Shiite when pressed further).We’ll the believing, deityfull or dietiesfull ones will just have to let the Godless and Godfree ones to come out with terms to call themselves. We will only pay attention to what they call us by their own terms, such as “religionists”. Cheers”J” – the Deityfull Religionista

  • Paganplace

    Well, speaking of Germany, anti-intellectualism in any society is *never* a good sign. Not that a degree is necessarily worth the paper it’s printed on, in the wrong hands. Just like giving a contractor a license necessarily means he has a clue what he’s doing.

  • Farnaz

    Paganplace: Not that a degree is necessarily worth the paper it’s printed on, in the wrong hands. Just like giving a contractor a license necessarily means he has a clue what he’s doing. Edward Said’s father was horrified when his son announced that he intended to become an academic, which he saw as a “glorified technician.” I’m afraid I agree with Said pere. Academics know what constitutes their fields at any given time. That is all. They are no smarter, no better, no worse than any other technicians. There opinions outside of their fields of study have no more merit or substance than anyone elses.I say this having spent many years among Ph.D.s, often in awe and wonder.The ability and desire to think critically, to doubt, is born of many factors. It is a kind of elitism to think the opinions of one’s plumber on politics have, by virtue of occupation, less credibility thatn those of one’s philosophy professor. It is classiscism, metaphysicalism, a failure of the empirical mind.

  • Gerry

    Dear Jihadist,to get away from the Sauerkraut (Lederhosen are missing!), Hitler, Arschloch, Halt and Mercedes identity of all Germans:I didn’t understand your Martin Luther King /Hitler/Jesse Owens thought combination, of which my comment “reeks”, no irony whatsoever intended here. Would you mind clarifying? Imagine, I know both who Martin Luther and Martin Luther King was, I even know who Jesse Owens in the 1936 Olympics was – still, please can you clarify? Or was it just an acoustical association without further logical ambition?Your intellectual standard certainly wasn’t meant as a slur from my side, which you might already have deduced from past conversations…”Intellectual” can be a praise and a slur, depending on the facial expression (observed or imagined!) and other context of a person using it.And: “Concrete” has a double meaning – just build your own combination of them.BTW: In another thread I posted at length the terrible Martin Luther (NOT King!) hatred against the Jews, together with his deadly superstition concerning “witches”, whom he wanted all to be burnt at the stake. Personally, my intent was to find another argument for my atheism, which, due to my surroundings, is an anti-Christianism, and that includes Luther.Thanks in advance! And I wish you a good night’s sleep in your time zone, which obviously isn’t mine.

  • TJ

    I like ‘super-free’, but I really think we need a mascot more than a new moniker. I suggest the platypus.

  • Anonymous

    “The words of our Risen Lord speak for themselves.”Jesus said:I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.. He who has seen Me has seen the Father.. If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.I am Anglican and the gay bishop you mention has destroyed the Episcopal church in America.Perhaps you know this prayer:Almighty God, who hast given us this good land for our heritage: We humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy favor and glad to do Thy will.Bless our land with honorable industry, sound learning, and pure manners. Save us from violence, discord, and confusion; from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way. DefendIn the time of prosperity, fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; all which we ask through Jesus Christ our LORD. Amen.

  • Farnaz

    Anon writes:”I am Anglican and the gay bishop you mention has destroyed the Episcopal church in America.”Atheism, anyone?

  • Gerry

    Well, even Jihadist can’t keep her “proverbial” intellectual level all the time. To use the cheapest available bias against a country of which you obviously know nothing except some malpronounced, misspelled platitudes and slurs, seasoned with an incomprehensible silliness (Germany and Martin Luther King???) to counter my (admitted: a little bit ironic) point you obviously also missed (a slur turning into a recommendation) may be excused only with a night with very, very little sleep, dear godful Jihadist!

  • Arminius

    Farnaz, commenting on Anon’s blast at me:Anon writes:”I am Anglican and the gay bishop you mention has destroyed the Episcopal church in America.”Atheism, anyone?————–No, Farnaz, no way. The Episcopal Church in America is alive and well, thank you. Our conservative parishes are defecting, to stew in their denial of their fellow man. The rest of us will progress.

  • Arminius

    Anon,Here is a Sufi prayer that I say often when I pray to God – it is all about joy, not fear and hatred. See the Beatitudes and the Two Great Commandments.Oh God! Rabia Al Adawiya, a Sufi

  • Farnaz

    Hello Arminius,Conservative reactions are not uncommon when institutionalized religions make what the rest of us view as progress.On another note, you mention the House of Mamon in New York in connection with opposition to Christianity. I didn’t get the opposition. Could you explain?Also, I live in New York, and don’t know where the Temple of Mamon is located. No one else seems to know either. Can you tell me? Can’t get out of town right now, so this is a good time for me to see any sights I might have missed in all the years I’ve lived here.Thanks!Farnaz

  • Farnaz

    Hello Arminius,Conservative reactions are not uncommon when institutionalized religions make what the rest of us view as progress.On another note, you mention the House of Mamon in New York in connection with opposition to Christianity. I didn’t get the opposition. Could you explain?Also, I live in New York, and don’t know where the Temple of Mamon is located. No one else seems to know either. Can you tell me? Can’t get out of town right now, so this is a good time for me to see any sights I might have missed in all the years I’ve lived here.Thanks!Farnaz

  • Anonymous

    Jesus said- If you love me keep my commandments. He came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill the law.So you disagree with Jesus- when what he has said doesn’t suit your sense of right or wrong?

  • Wiglaf

    Farnaz:RE: The temple of mamonI believe it was originally on 23rd and Lex., but had to relocate to Brooklyn due to gentrification. Unfortunately, it was too close to the water, following 9/11, causing many of the Mamonites to become sick. The Temple of Mamon, I think, is now in an underground shelter in Staten Island, but I can’t find it in the phonebook.Sorry.Wiglaf :-)

  • Wiglaf

    Farnaz:RE: The temple of mamonI believe it was originally on 23rd and Lex., but had to relocate to Brooklyn due to gentrification. Unfortunately, it was too close to the water, following 9/11, causing many of the Mamonites to become sick. The Temple of Mamon, I think, is now in an underground shelter in Staten Island, but I can’t find it in the phonebook.Sorry.Wiglaf :-)

  • Arminius

    Farnaz,’Mammon’ is archaic for wealth. The references to mammon in Christianity are several: the ‘camel thru the eye of a needle’, ‘you cannot serve two masters’, etc. The reference to New York I could not find, but it is something like “…they worship the Great God Mammon, whose chief temple is in the holy city of New York.” NY, of course, is the financial center of America and of much of the world – well, was once the only center. Now one of several.Arminius

  • Farnaz

    Wiglaf,Isn’t 23rd and Lex. where Julia Roberts, one of the 2/3s Christian majority living in New York had her 25,000,000 co-op?Farnaz

  • Farnaz

    Wiglaf,Isn’t 23rd and Lex. where Julia Roberts, one of the 2/3s Christian majority living in New York had her 25,000,000 co-op?Farnaz

  • Farnaz

    Wiglaf,Isn’t 23rd and Lex. where Julia Roberts, one of the 2/3s Christian majority living in New York had her 25,000,000 co-op?Farnaz

  • wiccan

    Arminius, dear friend, I’m afraid that Anon is a bot. Bots are not programmed to think independently, they are designed to seek certain words or phrases and reply with pre-programmed responses; e.g.: if the bot sees the word “gay”, it must respond that homosexuality is condemned in the Bible, and if you don’t condemn it also, you do not agree with Jesus (and therefore you are not a Christian).Unfortunately, bots do not have the capability for critical reasoning and judgement, and so must endlessly loop through their programmed replies.Have some fun- ask it how it would describe Christian love and see if it responds.

  • spiderman2

    Arminius wrote “I am Episcopal. We have a gay bishop, and I have no problem with that. Go figure”That after saying he believes in Christ. If there is something I didn’t know before, it is the knowledge that Episcopalianisms is worse than Catholicism. Its almost like septic-tank type of Christianity. Mr. mark wrote “Ask any dinosaur you meet whether he felt he was “perfectly” evolved to deal with the climate changes that happened 65-million years ago.”I hope somebody can revive a dinosaur, put him in a big cage with you and let people see for themselves who’s more fit to survive. You guys forget the word ADAPTATION. There is no such thing as evolution. Monkeys at the time of the first people on earth will still be the same monkeys to the last man standing on earth.If you can revive a dinosaur now, he is just as fit to eat or trample you as any time during its existence. What killed the dinosaurs was the flood. Even humans did not escape it except Noah and his family. The only “dinosaurs” who survived were those who can swim and they are called whales. As usual, you would be using claims by so called “scientists” that there existed “swimming” dinosaurs too who didn’t survive. Baloney. The next time you use the word evolve or natural selection, please show me first the PETAL. Turn your definitions into real objects. Don’t play with words with me. Just SHOW ME THE PROOF.Evolve, evolve…EVOLVE YOUR FACE. Unless you guys can recreate the rose petal all by yourself without getting help from the rose plant itself, you won’t hear me stop calling you IDIOTS. Gather all the evolutionist “scientist” with you and SHOW ME THE PETAL, idiots.Just show me the petal and I’ll put you on a pedestal. IF NOT, I hope the pedestal is sturdy enough coz I plan to smash it on all of your DUMB HEADS. It has to be sturdy coz you guys have really very hard heads, typical of idiots.

  • Paganplace

    *laughing really hard.*

  • Anonymous

    Cough, cough…Isn’t this thread supposed to be paying tribute to a dead man? The same old atheist-believer entertainment circus seems kind of disrespectful to George Carlin on this occasion.

  • Wiglaf

    Farnaz:Just checked with wife, and right you are about the Roberts co-op! However, the Mamonites were forced to move long before then.2/3s Christian majority is incorrect. I think you’re going back too far. It’s more like 70% now. Watch out, I tell you, from my Scots Irish genes, or what my mother insists are Anglo-Irish.Best to go to YouTube, watch Jesus Lizards, and hope.Wiglaf : )

  • Paganplace

    Maybe, Anonymous, you should concern yourself with your fellow conservative Christian who’s screaming, ‘Believe in Christ and my total incomprehension of science or I’ll smash your head in!’ *laughing*

  • Anonymous

    Reality check —The feudal mentality of Asian societies which keeps the rich and poor in completely different civilizations is alive and well among the rich and powerful in those societies too. Not even a Western education changes that. They simply learn more ways to be more feudal towards their own.

  • wiccan

    Lets all chip in and get Anon and Spidey a room. I’ve got a few bucks.

  • Farnaz

    Arminius,Sorry about not providing the reference for my Temple of Mamon post. Here is your post on said Temple:Arminius: “Christians do not worship false gods and carrying a idol is the same as worshiping false gods…”What a huge pile of horse poop!Paganplace has it right. By such dismal logic, I, a Christian, am actually an idolater with multiple charges against me. Let’s see… Washington (quarter), FDR (dime), Jefferson (nickel), Lincoln (penny). I guess I should look at my folding money too… maybe, if I’m really lucky, a Jackson!Idolatry is not in a silly symbol, it is in the mind. Idolatry is worshiping something too much, to a harmful extent – like money. Any ‘Christian’ with a large bank account, knowing that there are hungry and homeless on the streets, is an idolater (and a hypocrite), worshiping the Great God Mammon, whose chief temple is in the Holy City of New York.Sickening.June 27, 2008 10:23 PM |

  • Arminius

    (waving wildly to friends Wiccan and Paganplace)Anonymous aka bot:Know this now. I came into Christianity from the outside, from a spiritual place. It was there I learned that God IS, and that He is with me. I therefore view the bible not as the one and only sum total of religious wisdom, no, but a doorway. I am there to learn, not to be enslaved. I accept most of the words of Jesus, and accept His death and resurrection. Beyond that – I have problems with some of the Gospel text, and consider the rest of the bible to be, at best, supporting commentary and background, or, at worst, insufferable garbage.Deal with it. I am NOT your average knee-jerk Christian. That’s your problem, not mine. The issue is between me and God, NOT between me and you.

  • Paganplace

    *with a sigh and a wave to Arminius.* Surreal, ain’t it?

  • spiderman2

    Pagan wrote “*laughing really hard.*Idiot Pagan, just in case you don’t know, I too was laughing before I posted it. I’m just recreating what the 3 Stooges were doing to draw some laughs.Idiots, idiots everywhere. When can these people learn?

  • Anonymous

    Typing in that you are laughing is so lame. I guess you don’t know that ridicule may be a shield- but it is not a weapon. You show your self and give yourself away- no honour.

  • Farnaz

    Wiglaf,I must tell you that I am tremendously fond of the Jesus Lizards. They mean a great deal to me, and I would be happy to see them the mascot of the International Fellowship of Nonholy Atheists.I believe in these LizardsFarnaz :)

  • Farnaz

    Wiglaf,I must tell you that I am tremendously fond of the Jesus Lizards. They mean a great deal to me, and I would be happy to see them the mascot of the International Fellowship of Nonholy Atheists.I believe in these LizardsFarnaz :)

  • Farnaz

    Jihadist: “J” – the Deityfull ReligionistaFarnaz: Agnosticista? Atheista? Secular Humanista? Get-your-denominationally-funded-lobbyiests-out-my-face-ta?TJ: like ‘super-free’, but I really think we need a mascot more than a new moniker. I suggest the platypus.Farnaz: The platypus is a marvelous creature, and I would certainly support its candidacy. However, after numerous recommendations from Wiglaf, I watched the Jesus Lizards on YouTube. The name notwithstanding, the J.C. Lizard, could make an ideal atheist mascott. Take a look….I’d like to know what you think.

  • Farnaz

    Wiglaf,I must tell you that I am tremendously fond of the Jesus Lizards. They mean a great deal to me, and I would be happy to see them the mascot of the International Fellowship of Nonholy Atheists.I believe in these LizardsFarnaz :)

  • Farnaz

    Jihadist: “J” – the Deityfull ReligionistaFarnaz: Agnosticista? Atheista? Secular Humanista? Get-your-denominationally-funded-lobbyiests-out-my-face-ta?TJ: like ‘super-free’, but I really think we need a mascot more than a new moniker. I suggest the platypus.Farnaz: The platypus is a marvelous creature, and I would certainly support its candidacy. However, after numerous recommendations from Wiglaf, I watched the Jesus Lizards on YouTube. The name notwithstanding, the J.C. Lizard, could make an ideal atheist mascott. Take a look….I’d like to know what you think.

  • Farnaz

    Wiglaf,I must tell you that I am tremendously fond of the Jesus Lizards. They mean a great deal to me, and I would be happy to see them the mascot of the International Fellowship of Nonholy Atheists.I believe in these LizardsFarnaz :)

  • E Favorite

    I’m so proud of the US Episcopalians who are NOT bowing to the conservative faction. They are truly progressive, refusing to go backwards in time and bigotry.If they keep this up, soon, they’ll ditch the supernatural (which a lot of them don’t believe it anyhow) and maybe someday, people like me can join up again with a clear conscience.

  • wiccan

    (Waving to Farnaz, Arminius, and Paganplace)Goodnight, dear friends. I must hie myself to the Quickie Mart; the male children under my roof having drank all the milk so I’ve none for my morning coffee. And then to bed, to sleep, perchance to dream, of Spidey getting a brain, of Anon getting a heart. Land of Oz, here I come.Blessed Be to all.

  • spiderman2

    Atheists claim there is explanation for all. But when you ask them to make a rose petal without getting help from a rose plant itself, they have nothing to show. Ask them one single process how a rose petal is being made, they can’t give you any. Ask them how all the things we see around us came into being, they’ll give you answers in a jiffy.If they really want a new moniker, DUMB would be the most fitting word.One atheist claim Jesus did not exist. What do you expect from this person? How can he know Jesus truly existed if he is so dumb to determine what is logical and what is not? He thinks that his eyes evolved from a “common ancestor” with a gorilla. Why would an eye evolve? Is it defective? There are lots of animals who have keener eyes than humans. All animals are perfect. They don’t need to evolve to be “more perfect”. There is no such phrase and as usual only idiots would entertain such an idea. Evolve, evolve…EVOLVE YOUR FACE.

  • Arminius

    Anon aka Bot:It has been said that the greatest weapon against the devil is laughter. But I suppose that is meaningless to you. No matter.

  • Paganplace

    ” spiderman2:Pagan wrote “*laughing really hard.*”Idiot Pagan, just in case you don’t know, I too was laughing before I posted it.Ah, so now the bit of violence among the otherwise friendly verbal abuse was a *joke,* but still I’m an ‘idiot Pagan’ for laughing at you making a stooge of yourself?Still not seeing that Christian virtue of yours, either? Why should I need a shield *or* a weapon among such holy and grace-imbued folk?

  • Farnaz

    Ah, Spiderman2. I have missed you terribly. I thought for sure you were done with this blog. What has brought you back?

  • Arminius

    It is becoming painfully apparent here that neither Spidey nor Anon/Bot has a clue about the teachings of Jesus that God is love. They do not ask ‘What would Jesus do?’, but ‘Who would Jesus bomb?’.

  • E Favorite

    Anon: I found the Carlin “abortion” quote in the 2/13/01 edition of the Yale Daily News. Did it occur to you that he was joking? Reading the article, most of his other statements are jokes. Besides, when Carlin was born, in the 30’s – there was no such thing as an “abortion clinic.” Abortion was illegal in the US until 1973. Mark – Kudos on your Socrates/Jesus piece – one more thing, which I’ve commented on here in the past: Although Socrates was also very wise, he hasn’t had the impact of Jesus – set up as the son of god and the savior of humanity (as long as you believe in him). Both the Jesus and Socrates characters had some good things to say. It seems like it doesn’t matter “who” said it, or even who said it first, as long as humanity has the wisdom. In Socrates’ case, it’s just a matter of preserving wisdom. With Jesus, in contrast, society constructed a whole belief system around him and people have fought and died over him.“Fine, but we have what’s most important about whoever they were – their teachings. Their life stories don’t matter and two thousand years later, the only impact is their work. The society hasn’t constructed a whole belief system around them. No one is fighting and dying over them.” TJ – how about a platypus named Super-free? Of course, the Super-pros will probably want a mascot too. Wonder what it would be? Then some enterprising business person would start a trade in lapel pins, flags and bumper stickers. I can see this thing taking off.

  • Anonymous

    “the greatest weapon against the devil is laughter.”Where did you hear that? The greatest weapon against the devil is the atoning Blood of Christ Jesus. You are a Christian who does not know this?

  • Fate

    spiderman2 wrote (again): “What killed the dinosaurs was the flood. Even humans did not escape it except Noah and his family. The only “dinosaurs” who survived were those who can swim and they are called whales.”Wow, just wow. Whales are dinosaurs… I’m not going to bite at that, I’m more interested in the dinosaurs dying in the flood. That does not jive with Genesis 7:13-17, not at all. The bible says ALL animals that crawled on the earth or breathed it air were on the ark. God commanded it after all and Noah made it so according to God’s words in the bible. So your statement is contradictory to the bible. Maybe you don’t believe what the bible says? Here is Genesis 7:13-17 (KJV)Its pretty specific that ALL animals made it onto the ark, no exceptions. How do your explain your blasphemy spiderman?

  • Farnaz

    Dear Wiglaf,I just had what, IMHO, is a stroke of sheer genius, pure, unadulterated inspiration via the cosmos. Instead of the International Fellowship of Nonholy Atheists, we could call ourselves,The International Fellowship of Atheistic ant-Delusionists. Acronym: INFADELSA little in your face, aggressive and acronymically stretched, but…?Farnaz

  • spiderman2

    When I said Idiot Pagan, that was not meant as a joke anymore. I mean it. You guys should see the stupidity you’re doing before it’s too late.”Open rebuke is better than secret love.” The rich man in the story of Lazarus was burning in hell because nobody told him straight in the face that he was such an IDIOT. He heard it straight from God where there in no more second chance.

  • spiderman2

    thanks farnaz. The spider only appears occationally when the flies swarm and spread their germs. Somebody has to spray a bit of insecticide so the germs won’t spread. It’s you who was missing for some time. Where did you go.

  • Wiglaf

    TJ: Well I’m okay with the platypus, but I’m prejudiced in favor of the Jesus Lizards.Farnaz, I’d go with Agnosticista, in light of your earlier post. I like the Get-out-my-face, etc., but it seems long.Wiglaf

  • Wiglaf

    TJ: Well I’m okay with the platypus, but I’m prejudiced in favor of the Jesus Lizards.Farnaz, I’d go with Agnosticista, in light of your earlier post. I like the Get-out-my-face, etc., but it seems long.Wiglaf

  • Arminius

    Fate,Great slam on Spidey about Noah! 10 points out of 10.

  • Farnaz

    Hi Spiderman2,I know you mean well, but I wonder if you could maybe not call people “idiots,” just because it could get in the way of your message. After all, Jesus didn’t call them idiots.You could maybe not call them anything and just make your point, no?It really is good to have you back.Farnaz

  • Farnaz

    Hi Spiderman2,I know you mean well, but I wonder if you could maybe not call people “idiots,” just because it could get in the way of your message. After all, Jesus didn’t call them idiots.You could maybe not call them anything and just make your point, no?It really is good to have you back.Farnaz

  • Anonymous

    Edward Said mentioned by Jihadist was a Christian from Palestine. He had a completely British education before he came to the West. He lived in the US until his death. His views were humanitarian. Some of his views were not completely free of his own limited experience of realities he wrote about.

  • Nothing New Under the Sun

    E Favorite, you wrote, “I’m so proud of the US Episcopalians who are NOT bowing to the conservative faction. They are truly progressive, refusing to go backwards in time and bigotry.”What you’re applauding is in fact going “backward in time” because homosexuality is nothing new, neither is it progress. Remember Sodom and Gormorah?

  • Farnaz

    Spiderman2:Well, I guess we all come and go. It’s probalby in the nature of blogging. Are you ever going to tell us anything about yourself? Were you always a Christian?

  • Farnaz

    Spiderman2:Well, I guess we all come and go. It’s probalby in the nature of blogging. Are you ever going to tell us anything about yourself? Were you always a Christian?

  • Arminius

    Farnaz,I must take serious issue with you regarding Spidey.Great to have him back? Kinda like a longing for a toothache, or an invasion of roaches?He has no message except despite.

  • Farnaz

    Anon,RE: SaidOf course, you are correct, and then there was that business of his misrepresenting where he’d been born and raised for awhile. Certainly he was no Franz Fanon.There are, as well, criticisms from those who knew him at Columbia, that dreadful insane business with PMLA, etc. Still, his contributions to multi-culturalism are significant, were they not? Farnaz

  • Farnaz

    Anon,RE: SaidOf course, you are correct, and then there was that business of his misrepresenting where he’d been born and raised for awhile. Certainly he was no Franz Fanon.There are, as well, criticisms from those who knew him at Columbia, that dreadful insane business with PMLA, etc. Still, his contributions to multi-culturalism are significant, were they not? Farnaz

  • Anonymous

    Why bother talking about the Judeo-Christian hell. The hell Allah has prepared is so horrid one name won’t do:Jaheem – fire – because of its blazing fire.Jahannam – Hell – because of the depth of its pit.Ladthaa – blazing fire – because of its flames.Sa’eer – blazing flame – because it is kindled and ignited.Saqar – because of the intensity of its heat.Hatamah – broken pieces or debris – because it breaks and crushes everything that is thrown into it.Haawiyah – chasm or abyss – because the one who is thrown into it is thrown from top to bottomThe Judeo-Christian God is too holy to look towards hell- if fact- hell is the absence of God.In the Islamic hell- Allah makes regular visits to torture hell’s inhabitants. Their faces are burned off only to be burned off again. They are made to drink the puss of festering wounds. “Surely, the disbelievers will be in the torment of Hell to abide therein forever. (The torment) will not be lightened for them, and they will be plunged into destruction with deep regrets, sorrows and in despair therein. We wronged them not, but they were the wrongdoers. And they will cry: ‘O Malik! Let your Lord make an end of us’ He will say: ‘Surely, you shall abide forever.’ Indeed We have brought the truth to you, but most of you have a hatred for the truth” (Quran 43:74-78)Islam has the real hellhole. You should up your game..

  • Paganplace

    It’s pretty clear Spidey doesn’t ‘mean well.’ He means *ill,* and just thinks he has the *right* to. PS. Science isn’t done by threatening to bash people’s heads in, either.

  • Fred

    It’s interesting to see some of the same people on just about every faith posting — many of whom either reject faith in any god altogether or invent one of their own. But god or no god, I must say the vigor with which you go about trying to proseltyze the masses with your evolutionary faith far surpasses that of most evangelical Christians. Only a deep abiding faith could drive someone to devote so much time and energy to a cause.

  • Paganplace

    Ah, and now of course, the deflections, the distractions, the scapegoating, and saying, ‘Well, they’re *worse,* yaddayadda….’Nothing new, truly.

  • Arminius

    Hi, Paganplace!Spidey indeed does not mean well. It has never entered his mind that the best way to help people is not through threats, insults, and condemnation, but to talk gently,with compassion, and lead by example.I will hasten to add that, given my definition of helping, I’m not very good at it. But I really do try. Trouble is, the Spideys and Anons of this world really get the Celt in me seriously pissed off.Arminius

  • spiderman2

    I was born in a very conservative Christian church. I was a good boy at first but then, as Jesus has warned Peter, Satan will sift us like a wheat flour. In other words, I strayed. I began to doubt everything and questioned everything. In my search for the truth, God showed me the truth. The Bible has become my teacher and with God’s constant chastening and by His grace I am what I am now.These two verses had saved my life. John 3:18 and John 14:6. For me these two verses are the pillars of the Bible. Your a good person, farnaz. Just be humble and know Jesus and He will show you the way Im sure.

  • spiderman2

    I was born in a very conservative Christian church. I was a good boy at first but then, as Jesus has warned Peter, Satan will sift us like a wheat flour. In other words, I strayed. I began to doubt everything and questioned everything. In my search for the truth, God showed me the truth. The Bible has become my teacher and with God’s constant chastening and by His grace I am what I am now.These two verses had saved my life. John 3:18 and John 14:6. For me these two verses are the pillars of the Bible. You’re a good person, farnaz. Just be humble and know Jesus and He will show you the way Im sure.

  • Farnaz

    Fred,I fear you miss the point, at least my point anyway. I could not care less about what the masses believe or do not believe. When they try to impose their views on me legislatively, when they attempt to intervene in the curriculum with nonsense, well, then, they get my attention.Farnaz

  • Anonymous

    The feudalist upper classes of Asian societies are afraid of real democracy for all classes being introduced into their countries. They are all for the rich to go to the West and acquire knowledge and skills but not for the West to introduce democratic ideas to the ordinary folk in their countries who cannot afford to get their education in the West. The resistance to such a move is portrayed as nationalism and love of their culture and people. It is a love that those poor and trodden masses could do without.

  • Fate

    Fred wrote: “It’s interesting to see some of the same people on just about every faith posting — many of whom either reject faith in any god altogether or invent one of their own.”We just have nothing better to do. And its so much better than watching cable TV. So many channels with so much garbage.Fred wrote: “But god or no god, I must say the vigor with which you go about trying to proseltyze the masses with your evolutionary faith far surpasses that of most evangelical Christians.”A deep understanding of reality helps too. Fred wrote: “Only a deep abiding faith could drive someone to devote so much time and energy to a cause.”I think its the same thing driving both believers and non believers. We both firmly think we are correct. The only difference is atheists cannot invoke spirits and Gods to their arguments, yet we seem to win so many arguments anyway.

  • spiderman2

    Fate, this is for you.”There were giants in the earth in those days; ” (Genesis 6:4)Farnaz, thanks for the advice. I too really don’t like calling people idiots. In fact it didn’t sit well with me when I called pagan, “Idiot Pagan”. But I can’t promise not to use the word idiot. What I can promise is not to use it side by side with the name just like I did with Pagan. I think it was a wrong move on my part. It was just too harsh, I guess. Paganplace, Im really sorry for saying that to you. I think I was in panic mode when I did it coz I was afraid you will use that joke again and again to my disadvantage. It was really meant to draw some laughter on my part and I was just offended when it was used wrongfully by you and turn those “innocent jokes” against me as proof that Im a violent person.When I said “I mean it”, it means I believe it but shouldn’t have posted it.***The sad part of doing the cleaning is the possiblity that you end up becoming dirty yourself. I always notice that whenever Im engaged in an argument with atheists. It’s like helping a drowning person where there’s a possiblity that you yourself will be drowned helping him.

  • Anonymous

    Christian Arminius has nothing to say about the blood of Jesus. Does he believe like the Sufis that Jesus didn’t really die on the cross?

  • Farnaz

    Anon,Of course, you are correct about some Asian societies. They are oligarchies, for the most part, and the wealthy ruling families have a stranglehold on the people. They are landowners, slave owners, bonded labor holders, and, of course, anti-industrialist, anti-education. So it is with many impoverished nations.Ideology does play a part in anti-Western bias, along with nationalism, religionism, etc. They are distractions, in part.The case of India with its 250,000,000 Dalit in bonded labor is an interesting one. And, here, you do have what is a democracy. But it is a huge democracy and will take time to rid itself of this blight against humanity.So, what can one hope for in those countries that are not democracies?

  • Anonymous

    It would be revealing to find out how much Jihadist who makes her big bucks at the stock exchange really does for the poor and downtrodden in Indonesia, the land of her father, and Malaysia the land of her husband.

  • Farnaz

    Anon,Of course, you are correct about some Asian societies. They are oligarchies, for the most part, and the wealthy ruling families have a stranglehold on the people. They are landowners, slave owners, bonded labor holders, and, of course, anti-industrialist, anti-education. So it is with many impoverished nations.Ideology does play a part in anti-Western bias, along with nationalism, religionism, etc. They are distractions, in part.The case of India with its 250,000,000 Dalit in bonded labor is an interesting one. And, here, you do have what is a democracy. But it is a huge democracy and will take time to rid itself of this blight against humanity.So, what can one hope for in those countries that are not democracies?

  • Arminius

    Anon/Bot,This is getting wearisome, as is any conversation with someone who preaches but does not discuss.Yes, Jesus died on the cross. Yes, He came back on the third day. (I won’t discuss here the problems of the different accounts of that.) But the blood of our Lord only has significance only in the symbolism of the Holy Eucharist.Deal with it, dude. I am different. My path is my own.

  • Anonymous

    from Jude 1Guard and keep yourselves in the love of God; expect and patiently wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)–[which will bring you] unto life eternal.And refute [so as to convict} some who dispute with you, and on some have mercy who waver and doubt.[Strive to] save others, snatching [them] out of [the] fire; on others take pity [but] with fear, loathing even the garment spotted by the flesh and polluted by their sensuality.Now to Him Who is able to keep you without stumbling or slipping or falling, and to present [you] unblemished (blameless and faultless) before the presence of His glory in triumphant joy and exultation [with unspeakable, ecstatic delight]–

  • E Favorite

    For the Super-pros, maybe a good mascot would be a unicorn.

  • Farnaz

    In my view, there are too many Anonymi. Could said Anons come up with monikers?

  • Anonymous

    Farnaz, India’s incomplete uplifting of Dalits aside with an Indian population of over one billion, imagine Pakistan is not even a democracy worth the name after sixty years. It has helped breed a good number of Muslim extremists who are doing neither peace loving Pakistanis nor the rest of the world any favour.

  • Fate

    spiderman2 wrote: “Fate, this is for you. “There were giants in the earth in those days; ” (Genesis 6:4)”Wow, another amazing statement. So these giants were dinosaurs? I know of no one who interprets Genesis 6:4 to say these “giants” were anything but human, especially when they had sex with human women, and are considered to be powerful humans since the greek word used means powerful but was translated to be giant. Again, you twist not just science but even the bible to agree with your belief. Amazing, more blasphemy.And spidey, not all dinosaurs were large. Many were quite small. Then of course there were the dinosaurs which lived in the sea, large and small. All gone. You see Fred, you can’t find this type of humor on TV!

  • Anonymous

    Arminius-You introduced yourself as Christian.. But it is significant (at least to other Christians) that you see yourself as “different” and your path as singular and not shared.

  • Wiglaf

    Farnaz:International Fellowship of Atheistic Anti-I’m there, so long as we have the Jesus Lizards or platypus (TJ) as mascot.Wiglaf

  • Fate

    RNH wrote: “Hey Fate, that’s interesting- all this complexity came to be from random combinations of molecules,you call evolution, and in biology, mankind came to be from this invisible force you call natural selection, where matter is miraculously arranged so that humans are the result.”Your first mistake is that evolution involves random combinations and natural selection is “invisible”. Neither is true. Evolution is a scientific theory, which means it is a tested hypothesis which can make reliable and verified predictions. In english, that means it has predicted things that have been found, such as the various homonid species which had not been found in Darwin’s day. Natural selection is simply the natural form of artificial selection, which man has used over the centuries to make breeds of horses, dogs, etc, and both are understood well.So you start out with a false premise, that randomness just comes together and natural selection is “invisible”, and you easily knock it down, but all you knock down is what someone told you was evolution and natural selection, so you could easily believe it was not true. The next time someone tells you that evolution is about randomness or natural selection is invisible, ask them how they know this, what their credentials are, and references. I expect you’ll see on their face a blank stare.RNH wrote: “Mr Mark thinks , as some scientists do, that some of the genetics came from the big bang dispersion of matter in the universe.”You make no sense.RNH wrote: “Let’s see, we have this planet, with just the right orbit, tilt, distance from the sun, water , matter, etc to support plant and animal life, change of seasons, etc etc.”No. We have animals that that evolved to live in the conditions of the earth, which change from place to place and from time to time. Dinosaur bones have been found in Antartica along with ferns and other plant life. Now either the plants and dinosaurs could survive antartic temperatures, the antartic landmass was not always so cold, or God put the fossils there to test our faith. Which is it? Scientists know the answer. My guess is you’ll just agree with whatever does not go against the faith. How scientific.RNH wrote: “Complex humans evolved from this that now have very complicated sub systems(the brain, eyes, digestive system, sexual organs, ability to think and reason, with a conscience, etc)”You forgot the appendix, which a horse has and it an important part of its digestive tract. Remove it and the horse will die. Humans do not need an appendix, yet we have one. Why?RNH wrote: “And you come to the conclusion against that one law of thermodynamics, that this matter just “happened” and perhaps give the excuse that the universe is not a closed system so that is why it is happening the way it does.”Which law of thermodynamics says matter just happened? Do you know and understand those laws? I think you’re getting confused about the 2nd law, which says that the universe tends toward higher entropy, meaning that order goes toward disorder. For example, milk can spill but spilled milk cannot easily be put back in the bottle. Well, that law is what happens in the absence of energy. Milk does get into the bottle after all, with energy in the milk production plant. Plants grow, which is disorder (minerals in the earth, CO2 in the air, coming together to make the plant. Energy is everywhere. The next time someone tells you that thermodynamics is about randomness and the universe always tends toward disorder so the earth, life, etc, could not have originated on its own, ask them how they know this, what their credentials are, and references. I expect you’ll see on their face a blank stare. And remind them, the 2nd law only applies in the absence of available energy.RNH wrote: “Sorry, there has to be SOMETHING that has creative force doing all of this.”Yes, ENERGY! Gravitational, electric, light, chemical. Its all available and you see it “magically” working everyday to bring about something out of total randomness. Hurricanes, thunderstorms, clouds, fog, a river, a raindrop, ocean waves, tides, and much more. If thermodynamics meant the earth and life could not come about, either can these other things come about out of total randomness. In other words, thermodynamics is no argument against the earth and life. Just drop it from your toolbox of delusion. It puts you on a level with spiderman2.RNH wrote: “I suppose you call Macro evolution fact too- right? Even though no one has observed this or can prove it to the level you hold proving God to.”But while there is no physical evidence of God’s existance there is an abundance of physical evidence of macro evolution. And I do mean abundant. And that evidence agrees with other evidence. Contradictions in evolution are few. You can look at the existing animals bones and tissue and draw conclusions as to how closely they are related, then find evidence for relatedness in the fossil record, then look at the DNA and find the same relatedness. It all meshes very nicely.The most recent example is the realtionship between birds and dinosaurs. This is hard to do without dinosaurs around, and thus no dinosaur DNA since dinosaur fossils are so old the DNA has broken down, but a scientist found collegen, a protein that helps form tendons and other soft structures (its what makes your skin elastic), in a fossil T-rex. You can sequence proteins like you sequence DNA, and find out what type of protein made up a T-rex collegen. This was recently done. The result: the proteins are similar to collegen proteins found in chickens, frogs and newts. What this shows is that birds are likely decended from dinosaurs or a close common ancestor, and not reptiles alone. You can read about it here:

  • spiderman2

    Apostle Paul said ” Who art thou Lord?” The Lord replied ” Iam Jesus whom thou persecutest”.Aminius does not believe in Paul which means he does not believe what Jesus tells Paul.And yet he calls himself Christian. He believes in evolution, does not believe in the flood, etc. In short, he does not believe in many of the Bible teachings. He’s like a lawyer who doesn’t believe in the constitution. Im tempted to use “the word” again. ***Thanks anon for that Jude chapter.

  • Wiglaf

    Farnaz:International Fellowship of Atheistic Anti-I’m there, so long as we have the Jesus Lizards or platypus (TJ) as mascot.Wiglaf

  • Anonymous

    Sunni Muslim Jihadist who recommends division of Iraq along ethnic/Muslim sect lines, into Kurdish, Shia and Sunni Iraq was born to an Indonesian Muslim father, a country of many many ethnicities and languages, even more so than Malaysia the land of her husband.

  • Farnaz

    Hi Wiccan,Thanks for the kind words about INFADELa. Admittedly, it’s not perfect. Improvements requested.Farnaz :)

  • spiderman2

    Atheists claim there is explanation for all. But when you ask them to make a rose petal without getting help from a rose plant itself, they have nothing to show. Ask them one single process how a rose petal is being made, they can’t give you any. Ask them how all the things we see around us came into being, they’ll give you answers in a jiffy.If they really want a new moniker, DUMB would be the most fitting word.One atheist claim Jesus did not exist. What do you expect from this person? How can he know Jesus truly existed if he is so dumb to determine what is logical and what is not? He thinks that his eyes evolved from a “common ancestor” with a gorilla. Why would an eye evolve? Is it defective? There are lots of animals who have keener eyes than humans. All animals are perfect. They don’t need to evolve to be “more perfect”. There is no such phrase and as usual only idiots would entertain such an idea. Evolve, evolve…EVOLVE YOUR FACE. Fate, stop blurting the words evolution and natural selection. Just show me the petal. And please don’t ask for help from some “lower form” plants. You’ve evolved “much higher”. Im sure you are smarter than these plants. SHOULD I SAY MUCH DUMBER?

  • Fate

    spiderman2: “I was born in a very conservative Christian church. I was a good boy at first but then, as Jesus has warned Peter, Satan will sift us like a wheat flour. In other words, I strayed. I began to doubt everything and questioned everything. In my search for the truth, God showed me the truth. The Bible has become my teacher and with God’s constant chastening and by His grace I am what I am now.”So you did not choose christianity out of the many religions on this earth. You chose the one you were taught. A coincidence?spiderman2: “These two verses had saved my life. John 3:18 and John 14:6. For me these two verses are the pillars of the Bible.”So your belief is based on fear of being condemned and fear of not going to heaven. In other words, your belief is based on fear. But I thought belief in God should be based on love. What would Jesus say about belief based on fear? I think He would be a little perturbed, just as your father would be perturbed that your good behavior at the dinner table was due to him having a stick at his side to smack you should you misbehave. Love of God is not the same as fear of God, not at all. I think you still have a ways to go in your journey. Consider that atheists do not fear God but can be good people just as you say you are now.

  • Fate

    spiderman2 wrote: “He believes in evolution, does not believe in the flood, etc. In short, he does not believe in many of the Bible teachings.”As it seems you do not believe them either spidey. To agree with the reality of no dinosaurs around, you do not agree with Genesis 7 says by saying the dinosaurs died in the flood, and when called on it you warp the meaning of Genesis 6 to the point of absurdity and now say they died BEFORE the flood and they were the giants which everyone knows were people, even biblical scholars know this. Yet you call yourself a Christian.

  • E Favorite

    Fred: “Only a deep abiding faith could drive someone to devote so much time and energy to a cause.”I am indeed an optimist and think the negative aspects of religion will fade over time. I see it happening before my eyes, with the US Episcopal church as an example.Yes, “Nothing New…” I remember Sodom and Gomorrah – but that was the evil homosexuality as perceived in ancient times. This is the acceptance of homosexuality as a minority but natural and acceptable way of being. “The way God made them” you might say.Spidey – it’s nice to see your softer side.

  • Farnaz

    Moniker,What is new? We are talking about Sindh. Is Pakistan a democracy? Is Pakistan not also ruled by families keeping bonded labor? Anti-industrialists in league with the “military” such as it is?When will the Judiciary be re-established? When will our buddy Musharraf no longer be our buddy?Where is US help for those who do want a secular Pakistan? Pakistan is a place to watch, if the end of the world concerns you.Farnaz

  • Farnaz

    Moniker,What is new? We are talking about Sindh. Is Pakistan a democracy? Is Pakistan not also ruled by families keeping bonded labor? Anti-industrialists in league with the “military” such as it is?When will the Judiciary be re-established? When will our buddy Musharraf no longer be our buddy?Where is US help for those who do want a secular Pakistan? Pakistan is a place to watch, if the end of the world concerns you.Farnaz

  • spiderman2

    Fate wrote “Consider that atheists do not fear God “That’s the reason why God calls atheists as FOOLS. Anybody who doesn’t fear gravity will never know their stupidity until they reach the ground after jumping from a tall building.Fate, when I doubted everything, it also means I examined ALL religions. Paul said that Christians will inherit the earth. Is it a coincidence that the most powerful nation on earth and 2 time WORLD CHAMPION (WW1 and WW2)is a Christian nation COINCIDING with the prophecy of Paul?Take note that one of his prophecy says that atheists go to hell. If you will burn in hell, it won’t be a coincidence. Somebody told you beforehand.

  • Anonymous

    Someone has questioned the veracity of my post about George Carlin’s beginnings. Atheists are incredibly strident and inflexible in their devotion to their “nogod” beliefs. They are also apparently unable to do their own googling:Here Buddy- a pity google just for you. Now quit thinking believers aren’t kind and generous:“New York City Boy” was the show that George Carlin never got on Broadway. But he never left a doubt that his love for New York ran deep. Indeed, the acerbic legendary comic, who died Sunday of heart failure at 71, left for California in 1960 but always kept a soft spot for the city, and the neighborhood where he grew up, Morningside Heights. Just six month ago in an interview with this reporter, he called the neighborhood “the greatest place in the world,” expressing amazement that he had the good fortune to grow up there. “We had it all. We had the largest cathedral in the world in square footage, St. John the Divine. We had … Grant’s Tomb, the Juilliard School of Music, the Jewish Theological Seminary and Columbia University.”Aside from the neighborhood’s cultural advantages, Carlin celebrated the diversity of Morningside Heights.“Besides that there was a great black, Cuban and Puerto Rican enclave, where I lived. We hung around the street people. Everything was around. As my mother used to say, ‘You can buy anything here.’ You can get it as cheap as anywhere in the world or as expensive as anywhere in the world. You had choices.”Carlin said his mother almost aborted him, a subject he planned to discuss on that Broadway show.“She was in the office waiting to have the procedure and decided not to,” Carlin said. “I was 50 feet from the drainpipe. That’s the opening of my Broadway show. ‘I thought I’d never get here.’ ”The performer accomplished a great deal during his extraordinary 52-year career. The Grammy-winning actor and author was first and foremost one of the most cerebral and influential comics ever.Politically incorrect and provocative only begin to describe Carlin, who belongs on the comedic Mount Rushmore, along with Lenny Bruce and Richard Pryor.Carlin wasn’t your typical comic. He was not one for the Los Angeles scene. He rarely hobnobbed with Hollywood types. “I’ve never had show business friendships. I live inside my head.”Carlin always welcomed his Manhattan homecomings, when he would play the Beacon Theatre. “I always love coming back,” Carlin said. “I relate to how New Yorkers are. That city has something no other place has and I love it.”

  • Anonymous

    FARNAZ for you from the BBC World Service —Legal FrameworkUnder the Indian Constitution, discrimination on the basis of caste is illegal.In 1989 the Indian government enacted legislation to combat discrimination based on caste when it passed the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act.The government has also enacted legislation which provides quotas for people from low castes in politics and government jobs.The Indian Constitution reserves a proportional number of seats in both Union and State assemblies for Scheduled Castes. Despite these formal legal protections, in many areas, Dalits are either unaware of their legal rights or don’t have the resources to seek redress, thus discriminatory treatment continues.In India, Dalits, now known by the Indian government as Scheduled Castes, make up 16% of India’s population…Dalit VoicesIn Uttar Pradesh, India’s most populous state, the Dalits have a strong political presence and parties representing their interests are central to forming the state government.In May 2002, the leader of the low-caste dominated Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP), Mayawati Kumari, was sworn in as the chief minister of Uttar Pradesh.According to BBC’s Ram Dutt Tripathi, for the first forty years of elected governments in Uttar Pradesh, every single chief minister belonged to upper caste communities.He said, “It was only in 1977, with the election of a lower-caste chief minister, that these [Dalit] communities were able to see a link between power and decisions that directly benefited them.”One Dalit voter in Uttar Pradesh claimed, “What we want is izzat” (dignity in Hindi). Now Ms Mayawati struggles to reconcile Dalit demands with those of the broader population…

  • E Favorite

    The US is a secular democracy, not a christian nation. The constitution guarantees citizens freedom of religion.The US soldiers who fought in WW I & II went in under the American flag, not the cross of Jesus.I realize most people know that – probably including Spidey – but I think it helps to reinforce it.

  • Anonymous

    Farnaz, poverty and lack of universal health care in the only super power nation of the world. American blacks with their own tale of suffering and discrimination…Much to do, eh? Starting right under one’s nose…

  • Farnaz

    Anon,Let us get real, please. Why don’t you tell us how many Dalit are currently living as bonded laborers (slaves). Please, you do it, or I shall have to, with sources.This is reality, and it is ugly. You know that. Look how long it took this wealthy country to solve its own racial problems, and caste is akin although not equal to race. With the horribly inequitable distribution of wealth, the illiteracy of the enslaved Dalit, I think we all know that the 250,000,000 will not be integrated into the Indian middle class any time soon.Singh is to be praised for what I believe is his genuine horror at the situation. But many more educated INdians need to become involved do they not? Involved also in ending “Thirst”?This is not to say that India doesn’t have activists. It does. But why defend the indefensible? Why not end it, or do what you can to end it? In Pakistan, it is very difficult. My closest friend who lives in Islamabad, a famous academic (internationally) is on route here, as we speak. She has been threatened by Talib, mullah types simply because she has integrity. She’s not even an activist, in the sense that they exist in Islamabad. These activists are public. They are risking their lives. In INdia, speaking out doesn’t entail that risk.

  • Farnaz

    Anon,Are you Deb Chatterjee? If so, it is a pleasure to meet you. I have almost never agreed with you, but, if you are Deb, you have a good brain. Will get my Pakistani friend to post to you if I can. She’s brilliant, and extremely civil. (Much more so than I)

  • Farnaz

    Anon,Are you Deb Chatterjee? If so, it is a pleasure to meet you. I have almost never agreed with you, but, if you are Deb, you have a good brain. Will get my Pakistani friend to post to you if I can. She’s brilliant, and extremely civil. (Much more so than I)

  • spiderman2

    There is a third war coming and despite the initial loses, the U.S will rise up as a phoenix and will ultimately INHERIT THIS EARTH, “coinciding” with the prophecies of Paul. It has to burn as a phoenix to weed out all the stupidity it has like atheism, secularism, fornication, etc.E-fav, acording to a recent survey, the U.S is only 8 percent atheist and the rest are believers of God. Majority of those believers claim to be Christians. In God We Trust. It’s there in your currency. The God it refers to is Jesus Christ in case you don’t know. Make your own survey if you don’t believe.c ya later guys

  • Farnaz

    Anon,Your Anglican church will not save Pakistan. The Saudi funded Maddrassahs outnumber you by far. Christians have been, can and will be imprisoned and/or killed if their presence is felt too strongly. I don’t know the last time you were in Islamabad. I don’t know if you are keeping up with events in Pasur.Unless and until the Judciary is restored, nothing and no one is safe. The majority of Pakistanis want democracy. Too late, this government has decided that it would be easier for them to manipulate democracies than to manipulate dictatorships. Yes, and yes, regarding the American Civil Rights movement. One cannot expect the speed of amelioration in India that was witnessed in America. More activism in India would help though. Outspokeness by Indians here would help. One does hear this from Pakistani academics here. Interesting.I wonder if things would have been different for us Middle Eastern Jews, three million in exile, countless dead, if someone had spoken out loudly.

  • Anonymous

    FARNAZ here some suggestions —Mass conversions of Dalits out of Hinduim to Buddhism or Christianity. Islam is not a good idea. Adding fuel to the fire of Hindu-Muslim conflict in India is not a good idea. Besides Pakistan and Bangladesh is not likely to accept Muslim Dalits. Oil rich Muslim nations are not going to offer them material benefits and set up charities. The risk of rise of Muslim extremists as in Pakistan is not to be recommended. Look what happened to Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo. The “bad” non-Muslims nations came to their rescue.Conversion won’t lift Dalits out of poverty but it will lift them out of their sense of inferiority due to caste. Indians are divided into four worlds, the extremely poor, the poor, the middle class and the rich. The new caste system comparable to the rest of the world. That must be tackled with economic reforms. If one has education and money the caste one belongs matters not in practical ways. The businessman class is third in the hierarchy of Hindu caste, and money minded profit oriented businessman’s consciousness is considered low on the Hindu spiritual scale, but does a rich businessman care?

  • Farnaz

    Anon,Your Anglican church will not save Pakistan. The Saudi funded Maddrassahs outnumber you by far. Christians have been, can and will be imprisoned and/or killed if their presence is felt too strongly. I don’t know the last time you were in Islamabad. I don’t know if you are keeping up with events in Pasur.Unless and until the Judciary is restored, nothing and no one is safe. The majority of Pakistanis want democracy. Too late, this government has decided that it would be easier for them to manipulate democracies than to manipulate dictatorships. Yes, and yes, regarding the American Civil Rights movement. One cannot expect the speed of amelioration in India that was witnessed in America. More activism in India would help though. Outspokeness by Indians here would help. One does hear this from Pakistani academics here. Interesting.I wonder if things would have been different for us Middle Eastern Jews, three million in exile, countless dead, if someone had spoken out loudly.

  • Farnaz

    Anon,Mass conversion of the Dalits?! No, you cannot be Deb Chatterjee! That already was tried and happened. Where are the converted Dalits now? The Christian Dalits?

  • Fate

    spiderman2: “That’s the reason why God calls atheists as FOOLS.”Where is it written, by God, that atheists are fools? The only writings by God that the bible mentions are the laws written into stone tablets. Everything else was written my men, from visions, dreams, whatever. Do you agree that all visions/dreams that support your religion are real? My guess is you do, while those that do not agree are false.spiderman2: “Anybody who doesn’t fear gravity will never know their stupidity until they reach the ground after jumping from a tall building.”So God is a natural law? If so can you provide a proof of His existance? You can prove gravity after all? Please explain how you can prove God? By dying? hahahaha. I can prove the existance of the flying spaghetti monster the same way. spiderman2: “Fate, when I doubted everything, it also means I examined ALL religions.”Did you really? Funny how you came to the one you were brought up in, considering there are hundreds of others. Maybe you had a bias?spiderman2: “Paul said that Christians will inherit the earth. Is it a coincidence that the most powerful nation on earth and 2 time WORLD CHAMPION (WW1 and WW2)is a Christian nation COINCIDING with the prophecy of Paul?”You conveniently forget how the godless Vietnamese whipped our butts and Muslims killed 3000 of us in our own land and 7 years later continue to threaten us while a Christian president does nothing. And in WW1 and WW2 there were other nations fighting Hitler too. Its likely that if the godless Soviets had not been fighting Hitler on the eastern front, Hitler would have had a lot more troops to repel the invasion of Europe. So maybe you mean the champion godless Soviets too? That is not my prediction, just a counter to your baseless point.spiderman2: “Take note that one of his prophecy says that atheists go to hell. If you will burn in hell, it won’t be a coincidence. Somebody told you beforehand.”Again, you are full of fear. The Muslims believe you will burn in hell. Does that bother you? It doesn’t bother me. So why should *your* religion’s fears bother me? We both probably agree Islam is bunk. Why can you not understand my reaction to christianity is the same as your reaction toward Islam? Just hold out one physical proof of God and I’ll consider it, but you act as though belief is truth, which is by definition, delusion. For every example you have of Judaeo-Christian prophecy, Islam has one too. For every time God spoke to Paul, he spoke to Mohammed as well. Why do you ignore the visions dreams of God’s word outside of christianity? Don’t you have a mind of your own, or has your fear confined you? Maybe you can explain why Paul’s visions are right and Mohammed’s wrong? Why one was telling the truth and the other was lying or delusional. Why one religion is true and pure while the other is completely wrong and false. Yet they have the same God with prophesies and martyrs.

  • Farnaz

    Anon,Admitedly, I’m not very bright. But can you spare me YouTube, and just make your point?

  • Farnaz

    Anon,Admitedly, I’m not very bright. But can you spare me YouTube, and just make your point?

  • Anonymous

    “You conveniently forget how the godless Vietnamese whipped our butts….”Where did you learn American history? -a Jane Fonda correspondence course? – or maybe you saw a couple of Oliver Stone movies and feel informed?You give new meaning to having Sh*t4Brains..

  • Anonymous

    Farnez-Must you control everything or leave? You’ve left many places.

  • Farnaz

    Anon,I’m sorry, but I’m not following you. What do I control? Where have I left? Are you the same Anon and are we talking about the Dalit?I tried to watch the YouTube, but somehow, the sound isn’t coming through.

  • Fate

    Anonymous wrote: “Where did you learn American history? -a Jane Fonda correspondence course? – or maybe you saw a couple of Oliver Stone movies and feel informed?”What, we won in Vietnam? I never watch Jane Fonda movies since she betrayed her country. I never watch Oliver Stone movies because he presents fiction as reality.What movies do you watch to think we were not defeated in Vietnam, or are they videogames?

  • Farnaz

    Anon,I’m sorry, but I’m not following you. What do I control? Where have I left? Are you the same Anon and are we talking about the Dalit?I tried to watch the YouTube, but somehow, the sound isn’t coming through.

  • Pam

    Mr. Mark,;)

  • VICTORIA

    FATE- your statement- and evolution theory uses occam’s razor and amazingly- so do believers! Assumptions to formulate a theorysomething accepted without proof, and it is incorrect to speak of an assumption as either true or false, since there is no way of proving it to be either (If there were, it would no longer be an assumption). It is better to consider assumptions as either useful or useless, depending on whether deductions made from them corresponded to reality. … On the other hand, it seems obvious that assumptions are the WEAK POINTS in any argument, as they have to be accepted ON FAITH IN A PHILOSOPHY OF SCIENCE THAT PRIDES ITSELF ON ITS RATIONALISM. Since we must start somewhere, we must have assumptions, but at least let us have as few assumptions as possible.

  • Anonymous

    George Carlin- rest in peace. I remember him telling the story of his beginnings in life a quite a few years ago:”After being introduced jokingly by Yale Record public relations director Jules Lipoff ’03 as “the most prolific comedian of our time,” Carlin took a sip from his bottle of soda and began to speak about his early life. “I know I am a very lucky individual,” Carlin said He then described the extraordinary circumstances of his birth. Not only was Carlin conceived out of the chance meeting of his parents after they had already split up, but also he was saved from abortion when his mother saw a “sign” in an oil painting in the waiting room of the abortion clinic.”By the way,” Carlin said, “I still support abortion even though I was almost done in.”

  • Anonymous

    “the godless Vietnamese whipped out butts”Most Vietnamese followed the Buddhist faith. You think because they came under communist rule they left their faith?And the Vietnamese did not “whip our butts”. We abandoned Vietnam. You’ve never studied history or you would never make such an absurd statement.The self-proclaimed godless are also brainless. You ARE a fool.

  • E Favorite

    No one has to do a survey to find out what kind of government they live under. Here is the US, it’s a democracy – not a theocracy. Currently, it’s citizen’s are majority Christian and the government is secular. Regarding surveys, it would be interesting to know what percentage of US christians would prefer the US to be a Christian theocracy instead of a democracy – especially if they were given some details of what that would mean to their everyday lives — everyone must be baptised? show proof of attending regular services? Learn only about Christianity, and no other religions? be promoted based on level of devoutness?We are currently a majority white county, but someday relatively soon, that will change. Then what? forced to eat tacos for breakfast? Of course not – because we’re a democracy and have freedom of choice. Get it?

  • autonomous

    It seems clear to me that the ‘theory of God’ is less amenable to proofs than the ‘theory of evolution’ – which is probably why virtually all of science embraces evolutionary theory as established to the same order of probability as gravition, the speed of light, the 2nd law of thermodynamics, and so forth. The only ones that still doubt, are not scientists or otherwise broadly informed thinkers by any stretch – unless they happen to be among that small minority of ‘science’ authors that are trying to sell books to ever-gullible Creationists. There is a big market there, we must admit. Admitting a preference for the Creationist Creed and membership in the 50% Club – of Americans that buy Creationism over Evolution, is not something to be proud of! Newsweek put out an interesting article today on MSNBC entitled ‘Who Was More Important: Lincoln or Darwin?’ – talk about syncronicity…both were born on February 12, 1809 – and both changed the world in extraordinary ways. The problem with the genius of such singular thinkers and doers as represented by these two exemplars of human accomplishment – after nearly 150 years, much of the modern world is still dragging their heels (and their knuckles) & has yet to comply with their mighty vision of reality. They’re thinking is still cutting edge, even today. Definitely an article worth reading!

  • VICTORIA

    sorry that was me there- o btw- personally- (and i think i got the idea from monty python) the plataypus seems to be proof that the god has a sense of humor

  • Reasonable not hateful

    Pam- You must have visited a site that espouses such things about the 1000 year reign of Christ. I have not heard that OT laws would be re-instituted. In that time, whenever it comes- Jesus will be the ruler and there will be no war. There will only be peace.I am unsure of the OT laws and blood sacrifices. I doubt that seriously as Jesus was the last sacrifice that anyone ever needs. The animals sacrifices were just a precursor to the ultimate sacrifice which of course was at Calvary.As far as what Paul thought, there are basic tenets of Christianity that all Christians agree on- the atonement, the resurrection, etc. Some of the other things Paul had to say he interjected his opinion about – and there were obvious cultural forces that the people he were writing to would never understand if God were to speak to him about slavery, women’s right to speak up and political rights, etc. What I am saying is that the type of relationships people should have had in the past did not live up to their full potential due to humanity’s biggest issue- that is , sin. Without it, men and women would have been basically 50 -50 partners, IMO. The main thrust of the gospel is to solve that issue first. The model was one man, with one women, then a family….I would not just google something to try to understand the concept.

  • Anonymous

    “Currently, (America’s) citizen’s are majority Christian and the government is secular.”America’s citizens have ALWAYS been majority Christian and our government was crafted and founded by majority believers. Statistically- the only group that might one day challenge Christianity for majority in America- is Islam.So- sit down little man and quit telling half-truths and lies. You’re part of a small minority and only a pawn in this game.

  • Anonymous

    Jihadist, even Muslim terrorists who are calling for the destruction of the Western world use Western technology to do it. Some extremist Muslims in oil rich ME countries who preach death to infidels in the West drive Mercedez. Possession of Microsoft technology does not imply undying loyalty to the US.

  • Paganplace

    Not a lot of time to chatter, right now, but on this:”Brambleton wrote: Has there been conclusive and universally accepted scientific study that supports your argument [homosexuals are born that way]? “Well, in terms of reason, even if you don’t like the supporting evidence, there’s certainly no rational reason to start by presuming that the experiences of almost all LBGT people across time and culture are wrong or lying, and then demand someone ‘disprove’ what’s clearly a bigoted and unverifiable assumption in the first place. The Bible’s pretty mute on us girls, but that doesn’t stop people from presuming the ‘Word of God’ condemning ‘sodomy’ is meant to even *include us if it were true.*

  • Brambleton

    Pagan,Thank you for your comments. You have brought up what I believe to be a different discussion for a different day. I will say that my “starting presumtions” are based on a myriad of factors (i.e., social environment, learning environment, personal beliefs, etc.) that lead me to my current position. They are by no means set in stone and any rational discussion could lead to change.Anon’s argument comes from an entirely different position, one centered on factual evidence that may or may not exist. If it does exist, I would enjoy the opportunity to read the findings.PS I think you would appreciate the story (and the depiction) of the woman in the Song of Solomon!

  • Fate

    Victoria wrote: “Fate- again- the definiton was for scientific theory- you make the same mistake as mr mark-no where will you find any scientist that claims scientific theory is a proven fact”Theories are verified hypotheses used to explain facts. They themselves are not facts. Gravity is a fact. The theory of gravity would explain how gravity works. Did you know there is no real theory of gravity since no one knows for sure how it works? Does that mean gravity is not a fact? No, just that the method by which gravity holds you feet to the ground is not understood.Evolution is a fact. The fossils are everywhere. Studies have categorized these fossils and shown that species that exist today did not exist mellenia ago, and many fossils found are of animals that do not exist today. The theory of evolution, meaning the theory of how species evolve from one form into another, is a series of tested hypotheses that explain the observed fact of evolution. Victoria wrote: “and i liked mr asimovs definition”Of course you do since it does not apply to scientific theory but to the general use of the word. Scientific theory is what we are talking about here.Victoria wrote: “maybe you will also claim that steven hawking is not a scientist? steven hawking- “you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation which disagrees with the predictions of the theory”. “That is correct, and evolution, like any theory, hits these findings and is then refined. Evolutionary theory is not set in stone and itself evolves, but its major premises have withstood the test of time. Species evolve into new species, over time, as conditions of the environment or other evolutionary forces change.Victoria wrote: “so i asked you and ask again- where are the predictions?”I gave you a prediction that has been verified:-The proteins of T-rex are similar to chickens, not reptiles. Fossil evidence before this finding showed a link between dinosaurs and birds. So the prediction was that is we could analyze soft tissues or DNA, a link would be found. Recently found T-rex tissue, a rare thing, verified the prediction.More predictions that panned out:-If humans evolved from apes, and ape fossils point to them having evolved in Africa, that early human ancestors would be found in Africa. Verified.-Human DNA and the DNA of apes would be similar. Verified.-As another poster noted, the difference between the 24 haploid cromosomes of apes and 23 of humans would be resolved by finding two cromosomes that merged in humans. Verified.-The link between humans and apes would be found in intermediate species (missing link). Many have been found.-The myths of griffins (lions with wings) and dragons (four legged repiles with wings) are likely not real since no vertibrate animal exists on earth (even in fossil form) that had six appendages (that would include angels). So these creatures had nothing to evolve from. None found yet.-Domesticated dogs must have evolved from an existing canine through the domestication efforts of ancient man. Some thought the African dog, others the European wolf. DNA studies show the wolf.-Humans have an appendix, which does not seem to serve any purpose, yet it is there. The prediction is that the appendix is or was a functioning part of human ancestors and should be found in existing or past mammals digestive system Verified: The horse and other grazing animals have a large and functioning appendix, needed to digest plants.If you need more predictions that evolution has made that have been verified, look at this website, there are many:

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Fate -Good response to Vicky, but there’s some kind of mental block with her when it comes to understanding scientific terminology. I get the feeling she got a bad counter argument from some creationist website and is going to stick with it no matter what.

  • Anonymous

    Jihadist lives either in Kiritimati or Honolulu!

  • Fate

    Mr Mark,I think Victoria got her definition from Webster’s online dictionary, which is correct for the general use of the term. I found Britannica’s explanation of “scientific theory” to be more accurate because its specific for science and its more detailed.But she is correct that theories are not facts, or more correctly, scientific theories are not scientific laws. There is a law of gravity because when you drop something it always accelerates at the same rate everytime. It is precise and th observation can be repeated many times. However with evolution, you could set up a hundred experiments whereby fruit flys were encouraged to evolve under the exact same conditions and each in each experiment would get a different result. Evolution is more like the weather. There are no laws about the weather, but we understand it pretty well and can make good predictions that are later verified as the nice temperature outside my building is proving about this morning’s weather report. But there is no law of weather. Similarly, there is no law of evolution, just a set of theories that work well to make predictions that are later verified.Maybe Victoria could ponder why humans, as fetuses, have gills. It ain’t for breathing!

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Fate -Angela’s misunderstanding of the word “theory” is more basic than you allow.Many disciplines outside of science have theories that are bodies of facts. For instance, Music Theory is the explanation of the mechanics and science of music – harmony, rhythm, etc. Music Theory explains the “fact” behind a triad or a leading tone. Music theory explains the fact behind a diatonic melody or one built on a tone row. Music theory even involves a study of music history to see how harmony and other musical elements evolved over the centuries. Music theory can explain how a certain tonality is constructed. It can’t explain why a certain tonality seems to draw an emotional response from people.No one in their right mind would aver that “music theory is ONLY a theory, it isn’t a fact.” The “theory” of music theory is nothing less than the sum total of the facts that explain the science of music.It’s only when we speak of the theory of evolution that the dolts float the “only a theory” mantra, a mantra whose sole purpose is to mendaciously claim that the word theory always means “conjecture or speculation.”I can assure you that if music theory presented a threat to the fundamentals of religion, Vicky and others would be offering the “only a theory” gambit to counter the facts behind that particular science as well.BTW – musical fun fact: most toilets are “tuned” to the key of E-flat major.

  • Pam

    Victoria writes:why do i rattle you so?even when they are not mine :)”Yes, Victoria, I saw that you corrected that, but there was more than one anonymous post, and you didn’t indicate which you were referring to. Both had capitalization and punctuation, unlike your typical post. That’s why I wrote what I did.Trust me, you do not “rattle” me. I have no personal antipathy toward you, but I do find your writing style extremely annoying, and prefer not to read it. The only reason I read any of the post I’m now referring to, is that as I scrolled by, my name in all caps jumped out at me.There is a reason for the conventions of capitalization, punctuation, and paragraph division – it makes writing legible.Case in point – Much of the Bible came to us from the Greek, in a type of writing that did not separate words, capitalize, or punctuate. Is it any wonder that the scribes who copied it, and those who later translated it, made so many mistakes?THISISHOWTHEBIBLEWOULDHAVELOOKEDHADTHATSTYLEBEENAPPLIEDTOTHETRANSLATIONSANDCOMEDOWNTOUSINTHESAMESTYLEWOULDYOUHAVEENJOYEDREADINGTHATTEXTNOIDIDNTTHINKSOPERSONALLYICANTEVENIMAGINEWADINGTHROUGHALLTHATTEXTINTHISFORMNUTSOBeyond that, Victoria, I simply disagreed with what was written – whoever wrote it.

  • VICTORIA

    fate- for the record- i consider asimov’s understanding physics to be pretty valid- after reading asimov’s understanding physics, i felt compelled to petition the physics teacher to accept me into his gifted student physics program- i had to quickly learn algebra- trig- then calculus to keep up- and was about 3 weeks behind for the first month or so- but i caught up eventually- asimov wrote many science books- maybe his mastery of science fiction helped him to explain it to non-scientists in a way that was easily translated and comprehended-peace

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Victoria -Well, you certainly have my respect for your academic prowess! I didn’t understand trig at all and bailed on the class after two months of intellectual misery. Calculus I never took.I’m now in the position of having my own kids who need help in algebra and geometry. I’m of no use to them, so I’ve had to pay for tutors. Fortunately, there are also a number of websites around that make algebra and geometry easier for kids, providing good tools and tests to get them more solid on the basic concepts. My son is spending part of each day this summer with an algebra review course online to prepare him for geometry next year.BTW – it’s entirely possible that my experience with trig first caused me to consider that there was no god…

  • Mr Mark

    Dear Fate -My last post to you should have been in reference to Victoria, not Angela. Apologies all around.

  • Fate

    Mr. Mark,Check out http://www.purplemath.com. Its a great web site for algebra students. It even has many quizes you can take. Its a large site that is worth getting to know.-Fate (an algebra tutor, among other things).

  • VICTORIA

    mr mark- i would ask respectfully that you refrain from calling me Vicky-

  • Mr Mark

    Victoria -Sorry for your loss.No problem at all addressing you as Victoria.How about, Victor/Victoria?

  • Farnaz

    Christian Anon,Re: PakistanJust saw report from Pentagon on Pakistani military incursions into FATA: A complete failure.Pentagon Assessment: Situation bad. Majority of extremists entrenched in FATA. The danger to the US is much greater than it was four or five years ago. Only a large military presence that rids FATA area by area, holding each area as it proceeds can work. In the meantime, there are defenseless civilians there, including a former student of mine.Most of my life, I thought the world’s end would begin in the Middle East. A lot of my friends thought it would be Kasmir, never on my list of contenders. Pakistan is in the worst situation I have seen in my lifetime, with even the average Pakistani, typically unflappable, more and more unnerved. Benazir murdered, no judiciary, FATA under siege.What will happen? What is next?

  • VICTORIA

    Victor/Victoria is great- i like the gender neutrality of it- no, you can call me vicki if you awant- it was a momentary emotional repsonse- life goes on thanks for the sympathy i came back because i forgot to finish my point- something like that but im so geared up about this new discovery that im going to go explore it some-

  • Farnaz

    Christian Anon,Re: PakistanJust saw report from Pentagon on Pakistani military incursions into FATA: A complete failure.Pentagon Assessment: Situation bad. Majority of extremists entrenched in FATA. The danger to the US is much greater than it was four or five years ago. Only a large military presence that rids FATA area by area, holding each area as it proceeds can work. In the meantime, there are defenseless civilians there, including a former student of mine.Most of my life, I thought the world’s end would begin in the Middle East. A lot of my friends thought it would be Kasmir, never on my list of contenders. Pakistan is in the worst situation I have seen in my lifetime, with even the average Pakistani, typically unflappable, more and more unnerved. Benazir murdered, no judiciary, FATA under siege.What will happen? What is next?

  • Pam

    “pam- well- to each their own i guess.”Not really, Victoria. Not if communication is the goal.

  • Anonymous

    FARNAZ, my heart goes out to all the Pakistanis who are in fear of the extremist elements among their own people. My heart goes out to you for you are deeply concerned about the safety of your student and others. Only time can tell what is going to happen…Let’s hope for the best.

  • Pam

    Reading all the earlier posts about Noah’s Ark and the dinosaurs (always good for a chuckle) got me thinking about a) the food problem and b) the eight people who had to shovel all that sh*t overboard.I couldn’t remember off the top of my head what the size of the ark was supposed to have been, so I googled it and came up with this creationist site, implausibly titled “Facts About Noah’s Ark”:George Carlin (to return to the subject just a little bit) couldn’t have made up anything funnier. This is jumping through hoops at it’s finest!Among other things, they say that the “average” animal is the size of a sheep. Then, when the space begins to look dubious, they say that you have to remember that many animals are smaller than cats (where did that average come from?).They talk about God requiring that the ark be loaded with enough food for the animals, and when that and the sanitation thing start to “stink”, they fall back on the old supernatural thing – the metabolism was lowered so the animals just hibernated through it all. That’s it – magic trumps logic time after time.And all the big dinosaurs (thousands of species) were just juveniles, although sexually mature (say *what*?). Hate to tell them, but even a half-grown apatosaurus was a mighty big fella. And there were two of them. Somehow they reduce all the species ever on Earth down to just 75, 000 animals – and that’s with both members of the pairs counted!That’s partly because they postulate the need for only one pair of each “kind” – i.e., one owl, rather than one great horned, one spotted, one barn, one hoot, etc. But they say they don’t believe in macro-evolution!! And in such a short time! Surely someone would have noticed…?The bit at the end about the justification for God killing off everything (but showing how “merciful” he is by saving *some*) is particularly good. Especially the stuff about the “sons of God” and the “daughters of man.” It would be hysterically funny if it weren’t so sad.

  • Pam

    Oops! Just realized that they couldn’t even have shoveled it overboard – there was only one door, and God sealed it shut after everyone was on board. Well, I guess there was no question about later generations of flies!Even with the 18″ ventilation at the top that they talk about, the ammonia level would have killed them all.

  • Christian

    E Favorite,When you refer to homosexuality as “the way God made them,” it’s the same as saying adulterers, thieves, and murderers are “the way God made them.” The Bible clearly lists homosexuality as a sin; therefore, to claim God made someone homosexual is blasphemy. The good news is that we can be “born again” and made into the image of Christ once we accept his free gift of salvation for our sins. That’s when you will be able to say “it’s the way God made you.”

  • Animals Become Extinct

    Those of you wondering what happened to the dinosaurs, yes, they were most likely on the ark because as some of you pointed out, all of the various kinds or types of animals were represented there.So what happened to them after the flood? Well, what happens to animals now? Aren’t we concerned about the polar bear becoming extinct? Why do animals become extinct? Sometimes man “over hunts” a particular animal; sometimes the environment the animal lives in becomes uninhabitable due to changes in weather conditions.The point is, we still have animals being listed on the “endangered” list. Animals do become extinct.

  • Anonymous

    Said Gerry July 1, 2008 11:11 AM:Jihadist,Religion – all religion always has been and always will be for the sake of power, just read some of the helpless “under age” posts on these threads (Spiderman etc.), showing people who have surrendered the last shreds of their “god-given” personally accountable mental power.A mix to bring even an ardent believer to become an atheist by simply informing himself a little bit about history (other historical research will, of course, come to the same conclusion!). – “Christians should be known by their deeds”, ha!BTW: I drive a Citroen – ineligible for any major office in the US, lol! Remember the freedom fries?******************************************Anyone who judges Germany and Germans only in terms of what happened during the rule of the Nazi regime get a somewhat distorted view of the country and its people. Critics however justify their prejudices by stating that the people are responsible for the leader they accepted and supported until Germany lost the war. Who knows what might have happened if Germany had won the war instead. Germans might have been convinced that Hitler was a great guy after all, and would have been willing to ignore the collateral damage for the success. WW II ended only in 1945 so memories are quite fresh.History of evil done in the name of Christianity goes back some centuries and yet it is presented as if it were happening today; as if violence is what Jesus taught, and US foreign policy is taken straight out of the New Testament.The history of religions on the other hand must be judged first and foremost based on its original teachings and the life of its founder. How human beings have misused those teachings for evil ends does not reflect the merit or otherwise of the religion, but only how human beings have exercised their free will to do evil. Christianity should be judged on the merit of the teachings of Jesus Christ and His life. European politics at some periods of its long history does not sum up history of Christianity for Christianity existed even outside Europe. It merely reflects how some Europeans did evil politics in the name of Christianity. Karl Marx could not have known how his writing would be misused in the former Soviet Union to set up a system that was good in principle but turned out to be terrible in practice.Religionists posting here may be “under age.” Atheists posting aren’t much older. When serious topics are brought up for discussion the sound of silence is deafening from those who otherwise post essays. Playing dodge ball, acting like magicians, patronising platitudes… all part of the Kindergarten game. Admit it, you are enjoying it all just as much as the “under age” religionists. So continue to enjoy and don’t complain.

  • Anonymous

    Christian:E Favorite,When you refer to homosexuality as “the way God made them,” it’s the same as saying adulterers, thieves, and murderers are “the way God made them.”The Bible clearly lists homosexuality as a sin; therefore, to claim God made someone homosexual is blasphemy.The good news is that we can be “born again” and made into the image of Christ once we accept his free gift of salvation for our sins. That’s when you will be able to say “it’s the way God made you.”************************Christian you are WRONG ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY. Sexual orientation is not a voluntary act. Just as a person does not choose heterosexuality, neither does a homosexual choose the orientation.Go to the panelist section and read what Archbishop Tutu had to say about it. His essay is titled Blessed are the Persecuted.For God’s sake preach only to those you want to listen. Didn’t your church ever teach you that? Larger Christian denominations do not send out people to preach without preparing them adequately for it. Your church obviously has no problem with getting anyone to preach, even if it means driving people away and giving all Christians a bad name because you do not exercise any sense of discernment.

  • Anonymous

    All “under age” atheists who lump Christianity and Islam together have not bothered to read the New Testament and the Quran and Hadiths which explains the life of Mohammad, and studied Sharia Law which is the legal system that was developed from the Quran and Hadiths. “Under age” atheists do not compare the history of Christianity and Islam in its first three hundred years which more closely resemble the original teachings of the founder of the two religions. “Under age” religionists do not bother to compare the life of the two founders of the said religions. An authoritative biography of Mohammad was written by a Muslim not long after he died, in an age when his life was considered Allah’s version of perfection.This lumping together of all religions makes for perfectly politically correct “communications.” It adds no differentiated knowledge or meaningful criticism from “under age” atheists. Velly, velly, velly bad boys and girls.

  • Farnaz

    The oddest thing about the Ark is that it is buildable, has, in fact, been built, using directions given in the Tanakh.

  • Paganplace

    Amazing how far some people are willing to go to defend a literal-minded interpretation of a book, yet still insist the Divine is as small-minded as they are.

  • Farnaz

    Anon writes:his lumping together of all religions makes for perfectly politically correct “communications.” It adds no differentiated knowledge or meaningful criticism….Agree absolutely. The differences among Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are enormous. Those between Judaism and Christianity make the two systems almost opposite. As any religious studies, Judaic Studies, or Islamic Studies scholar will tell you, Judaism and Islam have far more in common with each other than either does with Christianity.Both Judaism and Islam are ways of life; neither is a confessional religion. A significant amount of the Shariah was derived from the Torah. Anti-idolatry begins with Moses and is carried into Islam.The list goes on, and, here I am only addressing three monotheistic religions, what the Vatican calls Abrahamic. In my view, Judaism and Islam are, indeed, Abrahamic. I can’t see Abraham in Christianity.

  • Farnaz

    Hi PaganPlace: :-)You write: Amazing how far some people are willing to go to defend a literal-minded interpretation of a book, yet still insist the Divine is as small-minded as they are.Farnaz

  • andrew

    anon thinks-”Christian you are WRONG ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY”No. CHRISTIAN IS RIGHT. The act of sodomy is a sexual perversion not a “lifestyle”.READ THE SCRIPTURES-”Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor THOSE WHO PARTICIPATE IN HOMOSEXUALITY, nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God. AND SUCH SOME OF YOU WERE ONCE. But you were washed clean (purified by a complete atonement for sin and made free from the guilt of sin), and you were consecrated (set apart, hallowed), and you were justified [pronounced righteous, by trusting] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the [Holy] Spirit of our God.” 1 Corinthians 6:9-11Some members of the early church were homosexuals who had been delivered from a perversion. As Christians- are we to encourage alcoholics to drink? Should we tell a thief- its his lifestyle- so continue to steal, should we consider murderers- a persecuted group who should be encouraged and accepted in spite of a their tendency to kill others??As recorded in the Old Testament- Sodomy was not the only sin being committed in Sodom- but the sodomites open “lifestyle’ contributed to bringing the judgment of God on their city and the perverse sexual act they practiced is named in memory of their city. If you are Christian- you cannot identify yourself with these Christian scriptures and say homosexuality is not a sin.

  • Anonymous

    Said Gerry July 1, 2008 11:11 AM:Jihadist,Religion – all religion always has been and always will be for the sake of power, just read some of the helpless “under age” posts on these threads (Spiderman etc.), showing people who have surrendered the last shreds of their “god-given” personally accountable mental power.A mix to bring even an ardent believer to become an atheist by simply informing himself a little bit about history (other historical research will, of course, come to the same conclusion!). – “Christians should be known by their deeds”, ha!*********************The genius of “under age” atheists lie in completely ignoring the good that came out of Christianity in the case being cited. It did not come in spite of people being Christians, it came because of people who chose to actually follow the teachings of Jesus as written in the New Testament.Critics of Germany similarly ignore the plight of Germans who had no way of knowing how Hitler would misuse his power when he got it; how his evil genius manipulated religions and German ethnic sentiments and frustrations due to poverty after the loss of WW I; how a government controlled by a dictator, who allows no freedom of the press, has a whole people living in a world of lies without their ever knowing it. The critics of Germany would naturally ignore the fact that many Germans bravely opposed their insanely evil dictator and even sacrificed their lives to save their country from him. That is just how prejudice works. There is no balance or rationality in assessing facts. Only facts that fit a certain prejudice is considered.”Under age” atheists are doing it all the time when assessing religions. Naughty boys and girls.

  • E Favorite

    Christian informs me: “When you refer to homosexuality as “the way God made them,” it’s the same as saying adulterers, thieves, and murderers are “the way God made them.”That’s only if you consider the mere act of sex between consenting adults of the same gender as harmful to other individuals and society. I don’t feel that way – neither do many practicing Christians.Then he warns me: “The Bible clearly lists homosexuality as a sin; therefore, to claim God made someone homosexual is blasphemy.”That’s only if you think the bible is the inerrant word of god. I don’t and neither do many practicing Christians. I also deny the Holy Spirit, fully aware of the Mark 3:29 directive that, “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.” I don’t know how practicing Christians feel about that. I’ve never heard any discussion about that during my church-going days. I’m thinking it’s one of the many things in the bible that they gloss over, focusing instead on the benign teachings of Jesus. But technically, if I did consider the bible to be God’s inerrant word, the above directive from Mark excludes women, i.e., “…HE is guilty…” Meaning that half the human race can indeed blaspheme against the holy spirit and still get to heaven. It doesn’t make much sense to me, but when I was a Christian, I learned that God works in mysterious ways.

  • Paganplace

    The Ark may be ‘buildable’ according to someone’s view of some specs in the Bible, if you figure one dude could knock it up from inspiration in his backyard in a realm where wood was actually a pretty precious commodity, but that doesn’t mean it could hold or sustain all the species on Earth, if one dude could gather them in the first place, ….whatever the Creation scientists are saying. (Apparently they’re they’re willing to deviate from Biblical literalism to make their Ark huge enough to be implausible that way, anyway… :))Just from the start, the *Smithsonian* doesn’t have samples of all the species on Earth, never mind living ones. And whatever you may think of Noah’s Ark-building skillz and capacities, this wasn’t exactly a region famed for its blue-water fleet. The story’s ridiculous on the face of it if you were to take it literally, and still needs propping up with other bad science to do so in the first place, (see: Dead leaf Theory.) Frankly, the Ark story and most of Genesis comes from Babylonian myth of less-ambitious scope, likely inspired by a regional flood that may have actually happened, and Enki was the one that directed someone to save his family to repopulate the human race after Anu and his group decided to rub them out as a big mistake. Maybe it grew with the absolutist telling, but it’s still ridiculous lengths the religiously-intolerant will go to to ‘prove’ they’re Perfectly Right In Everything.

  • Arminius

    Hi, Farnaz,Some questions about somebody building an ark – besides Noah….

  • Anonymous

    Flood mythologies are plentiful….see Talkorigins.org for a sampling. Dinosaurs were extinct about 65 million years ago – modern man appeared about 100 thousand years ago, give or take. Our distant hominid ancestors showed up maybe 3-5 million years ago, give or take. Time tables just don’t work out….. Taking mythologies for real are pretty exciting when you’re a kid, but not very complimentary to the parent, if your child hasn’t shaken these beliefs by the age of 10 or 12. If you’re still believing the historical reality of Noah’s Ark as an adult, then we have an intractible case of arrested development – unfortunately, there seems to be a rather vast population of people in the USA that are stuck at about the 6th grade level in their thinking, as evidenced by their child-like beliefs in the ‘reality’ of religious mythology. How in the world could this have happened in the USA in this day and age? This is more of a mystery than how Noah got those gadzillions of animals on a small wooden boat.

  • Anonymous

    Flood mythologies are plentiful….see Talkorigins.org for a sampling. Dinosaurs were extinct about 65 million years ago – modern man appeared about 100 thousand years ago, give or take. Our distant hominid ancestors showed up maybe 3-5 million years ago, give or take. Time tables just don’t work out….. Taking mythologies for real are pretty exciting when you’re a kid, but not very complimentary to the parent, if your child hasn’t shaken these beliefs by the age of 10 or 12. If you’re still believing the historical reality of Noah’s Ark as an adult, then we have an intractible case of arrested development – unfortunately, there seems to be a rather vast population of people in the USA that are stuck at about the 6th grade level in their thinking, as evidenced by their child-like beliefs in the ‘reality’ of religious mythology. How in the world could this have happened in the USA in this day and age? This is more of a mystery than how Noah got those gadzillions of animals on a small wooden boat.

  • Paganplace

    “Critics of Germany similarly ignore the plight of Germans who had no way of knowing how Hitler would misuse his power when he got it; how his evil genius manipulated religions and German ethnic sentiments and frustrations due to poverty after the loss of WW I;”He also used blind obedience to Christianity, as well. Hitler ran as a ‘Christian Values’ candidate, which is also forgotten by people who claim only Christians know goodness or that Christianity in government means everything’s good and righteous, wherever it leads. We see a similar climate, here in America, these past twenty years, and a couple of martyrs don’t mean that there isn’t real danger of the same old stuff dressed up in fresh garments.

  • Wiglaf

    Anon:RE: Blue whales and Noah’s ArkThere are not now, nor have there ever been blue whales in the Middle East.Sincerely,Wiglaf

  • Wiglaf

    RE: Flying spaghetti monstersThere may or may not be flying spaghetti monsters. The truth of falsity of their existence cannot be ascertained.This is not the case with flying macaroni monsters. Now that we believe in the MMs, we no longer eat macaroni.Wiglaf

  • Arminius

    Farnaz,If it’s not too much trouble, I would like to know. Curiosity is one of my abiding characteristics.Arminius

  • Arminius

    Wiglaf,Of COURSE there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster, because spaghetti flies! Do you not know that the way to test spaghetti for doneness is to throw a noodle on the ceiling? If it sticks, it is done!Arminius

  • Farnaz

    Hi Arminius,Sure, I’ll ask her about the ark. Also, you might find this interesting. Her brother, an anthropologist, excavated the earliest “brewery” in Egypt. I’ll ask about that too.Farnaz————Hi Wiglaf,My daughter was also a flying macaroni monster. :)Farnaz

  • Anonymous

    Hello Arminius,You write: Of COURSE there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster, because spaghetti flies! Do you not know that the way to test spaghetti for doneness is to throw a noodle on the ceiling? If it sticks, it is done!I never knew this. I’m embarrassed to ask, but is this common knowledge?Sincerely,Wiglaf

  • Fate

    Animals Become Extinct wrote: “Those of you wondering what happened to the dinosaurs, yes, they were most likely on the ark because as some of you pointed out, all of the various kinds or types of animals were represented there.”Correct, that is what Genesis says.Animals Become Extinct wrote: “So what happened to them after the flood? Well, what happens to animals now? Aren’t we concerned about the polar bear becoming extinct? Why do animals become extinct? Sometimes man “over hunts” a particular animal; sometimes the environment the animal lives in becomes uninhabitable due to changes in weather conditions.”I could accept that except for the following facts which refute your idea:You see, if all animals on the ark were living together before the flood, we would see their fossils in the same layers of what is now rock, but we do not. We see them clearly separated, lower layers contain dinosaurs, upper layers contain mammals with modern humans near the top layers. So while animals become extinct every day, extinction of the dinosaurs after the flood is unlikely, unless that flood occurred 65 million years ago or even further in the past, but then we see no human bones at that age. You would think we’d find one of those poor souls God drowned. But no. The record is very clear in the rock. Dinosaurs and man were never contemporaries, and are separated by millions of years. Good try though…

  • Anonymous

    PaganPlace:Honestly couldn’t care less, myself, since you guys seem to take his word over Jesus’ in the first place, and I think it’s BS.Over WHOM??!!!And what would said JC’s “word” be? Where doth one find it?Farnaz

  • Wiglaf

    Farnaz writes to Paganplace:Honestly couldn’t care less, myself, since you guys seem to take his word over Jesus’ in the first place, and I think it’s BS.Why, Farnaz, I am appalled, appalled and bewildered. Do you not recall previous threads? Have you no sense of blogging history? The word of said JC comes from the Q Gospel in the sky. Don’t you remember New Testament Q(ueer) Gospel Theory?Really.Sincerely,Wiglaf, father of flying macaroni monster

  • Fate

    RNH wrote: “The difference between believers and non believers is that believers believe in the infinite as in God. Those that don’t know, or claim to KNOW that God does not exist, have belief(claimed to be scientific) in the infinite universe.”You need to understand that your God is about as real to an atheist as the Hindu God is to a christian. Do you know if Ganesh, the Hindu God, exists? Or KNOW that Ganesh does not exist? Your ideas as very binary. There is more to religion that God and no God.You also need to consider what christians used to consider proof of God:Today christians say life cannot be made by scientists, so that is the proof of God. Yet scientists have made major advances in recent years and can make many of the components of life, including the lipid bilayer cell walls of cells, from natural conditions. When man can take natural substances and form life from them, that will, like the others, be dropped as proof of God. Then what will you do?As for an infinite universe, there is no “belief” in it. The observations show one that is so large it might be infinite, we do not know, which is something believers are not allowed to say.But let me ask you RNH, you are reading these “truths” which were written in the bible by people who believed the sun revolved around a flat earth, as did the moon, the stars were fixed in a shell around the earth called the firmament, and that was the universe. They also believed that the soul, and thought, existed in the heart. What does your heart say RNH? Do you think these people held all the answers?

  • Anonymous

    Said Paganplace July 1, 2008 9:38 PM :He (Hitler) also used blind obedience to Christianity, as well. Hitler ran as a ‘Christian Values’ candidate, which is also forgotten by people who claim only Christians know goodness or that Christianity in government means everything’s good and righteous, wherever it leads.We see a similar climate, here in America, these past twenty years, and a couple of martyrs don’t mean that there isn’t real danger of the same old stuff dressed up in fresh garments.July 1, 2008 9:38 PM ************************Using religious platforms to run for political office is a recent US invention. Leave the Europeans out of it. Hitler may have been an evil man but he only exploited the ethnic sentiments and frustrations of Germans. He *never* ran for political office under a religious banner. He merely manipulated Christians as he found opportunity to do so, coming down hard on those who didn’t toe the party line.Misinformation is not good. Hitler was a bad boy but he did not run on a religious card.

  • Farnaz

    He merely manipulated Christians as he found opportunity to do so, coming down hard on those who didn’t toe the party line.Misinformation is not good. Hitler was a bad boy but he did not run on a religious card.

  • Paganplace

    “Over WHOM??!!!”And what would said JC’s “word” be? Where doth one find it?”Hey, hey, hey, Farnaz, I’m not a Christian, myself. But educated in it. Paul and JC are not saying the same things, but they always default to Paul’s interpretation when they aren’t making the sales pitch. Like I said, I don’t care which was written first if the one was just bad-things-written, anyway.

  • Anonymous

    Said Paganplace July 1, 2008 9:38 PM :He (Hitler) also used blind obedience to Christianity, as well. Hitler ran as a ‘Christian Values’ candidate, which is also forgotten by people who claim only Christians know goodness or that Christianity in government means everything’s good and righteous, wherever it leads.We see a similar climate, here in America, these past twenty years, and a couple of martyrs don’t mean that there isn’t real danger of the same old stuff dressed up in fresh garments.July 1, 2008 9:38 PM **************************It is claimed that some Nazis secretly practiced a form of neo-paganism.BTW FARNAZ, the NAZI party was not a religious party. National Socialists (NAZI) does that imply a branch of Christianity. His evil was born with the invention of his Aryan theory while in jail. That is about German ethnicity, and has nothing to do with Christianity. His theory also included doing away with the weak and disabled, the gypsies, homosexuals, handicapped even among the Germans themselves.

  • Paganplace

    As for the platform Hitler ran on, consider Prescott Bush, Dubya’s grandpa, was one of his big financiers. Hitler famously promised to bring back ‘Christian family values’ by limiting women to, (I forget all the German) “Kitchen, church, bedroom, children.” Sound familiar?

  • Pam

    Arminius wrote:If it’s not too much trouble, I would like to know. Curiosity is one of my abiding characteristics.”I too would like to know. I can’t find anything about it online, apart from a man in the Netherlands who built a half-size replica, and a couple of much smaller ones built for churches and as a traveler’s hut on Mt. Ararat. None of these have been tested in the water – was the one you’re referring to?As far as I can see, apart from general dimensions and a few small details, the instructions are pretty vague. There’s no mention, for instance, of hull shape.I did find this admission on one creationist site: “One of the ongoing debates on Noah’s Ark is weather [sic] the ark was the rectangular design indicated in scripture or a more traditional canoe design. There are still a number of unanswered questions concerning a rectangular ‘box’ design for the ark. The primary concern with this design is longitudinal stability. This problem is associated with the ark’s length. Analysis of an all-wood design indicates that the vessel would break apart under heavy sea conditions due to longitudinal forces acting upon it. Further analysis needs to be done on this design. It is entirely possible that the antediluvians had developed methods of construction which we are unfamiliar with.”Right. And the ancient Chinese knew more about medicine than we do today. Be sure to take your powdered rhino horn if you’re having “potency” problems. :D

  • Gerry

    Jihadist,Religion – all religion always has been and always will be for the sake of power, just read some of the helpless “under age” posts on these threads (Spiderman etc.), showing people who have surrendered the last shreds of their “god-given” personally accountable mental power.A mix to bring even an ardent believer to become an atheist by simply informing himself a little bit about history (other historical research will, of course, come to the same conclusion!). – “Christians should be known by their deeds”, ha!BTW: I drive a Citroen – ineligible for any major office in the US, lol! Remember the freedom fries?

  • Paganplace

    “Right. And the ancient Chinese knew more about medicine than we do today. Be sure to take your powdered rhino horn if you’re having “potency” problems. :D”*More* isn’t at issue, there. Things Western science doesn’t know or doesn’t want to admit it knows, yes, it did. Like impotence being largely in the head, an sometimes people figure what they pay money for must be inherently powerful. Ask ‘Bob’ :)

  • Paganplace

    Oh, yeah, and medical impotence often involves circulatory problems. I guarantee you actually send someone after a wild rhino, it *will* get the blood flowing, in more ways than one. :)Take it from a ‘Witch,’ even if it’s one who knows we aren’t exactly long on dangerous wildlife, these days. :)

  • Anonymous

    Said Farnaz July 1, 2008 9:04 PM:Anon writes:his lumping together of all religions makes for perfectly politically correct “communications.” It adds no differentiated knowledge or meaningful criticism….Agree absolutely. The differences among Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are enormous. Those between Judaism and Christianity make the two systems almost opposite. As any religious studies, Judaic Studies, or Islamic Studies scholar will tell you, Judaism and Islam have far more in common with each other than either does with Christianity.Both Judaism and Islam are ways of life; neither is a confessional religion. A significant amount of the Shariah was derived from the Torah. Anti-idolatry begins with Moses and is carried into Islam.The list goes on, and, here I am only addressing three monotheistic religions, what the Vatican calls Abrahamic. In my view, Judaism and Islam are, indeed, Abrahamic. I can’t see Abraham in Christianity.*********************************Farnaz, ever heard the word Judaeo-Christianity sometime?Too bad Jews of Mecca didn’t even agree with Mohammad in his own lifetime (at their own peril).Ever considered the fact Jesus was actually born a Jew whereas Mohammad was an Arab pagan?The Old Testament used by Christians is the same Scripture of the Jews and is not rewritten. The New Testament interprets the OT in the light of Jesus as Messiah.Did you know that all the followers of Jesus in His lifetime were actually Jews? Even if all the Jews did not convert to Christianity a large number of them did?Did you know that Allah was the name of the Arab pagan god the Arabs worshiped in Mecca long before the birth of Islam and the Jews living in Mecca did not have anything to do with the worship of Allah?

  • Arminius

    Wiglaf,I don’t know if the ceiling test for spaghetti being done is well known – but it should be! It’s lots of fun, kids adore it.As to the Q ‘Gospel’ – hypothetical, maybe written once, maybe not. A better term is Q Source, because the Q is from German quelle, ‘source’. Postulated when the ordering and dating of the Gospels was first attempted, to explain why Matthew and Luke had more sayings of Jesus than Mark.

  • Farnaz

    Farnaz, ever heard the word Judaeo-Christianity sometime?Too bad Jews of Mecca didn’t even agree with Mohammad in his own lifetime (at their own peril).Ever considered the fact Jesus was actually born a Jew whereas Mohammad was an Arab pagan?The Old Testament used by Christians is the same Scripture of the Jews and is not rewritten. The New Testament interprets the OT in the light of Jesus as Messiah.Did you know that all the followers of Jesus in His lifetime were actually Jews? Even if all the Jews did not convert to Christianity a large number of them did?Did you know that Allah was the name of the Arab pagan god the Arabs worshiped in Mecca long before the birth of Islam and the Jews living in Mecca did not have anything to do with the worship of Allah?Anon,First of all, there are simply too many Anonymi, period. One cannot keep up with them, and try to derive a coherent reading to which one can respond.Clearly, someone capable of phrasing serial questions can come up with a moniker. PLEEZ.I will answer your first question first. Yes, I have heard of this “tradition.” What is the point?Farnaz

  • Anonymous

    Said Paganplace July 1, 2008 10:39 PM:As for the platform Hitler ran on, consider Prescott Bush, Dubya’s grandpa, was one of his big financiers.Hitler famously promised to bring back ‘Christian family values’ by limiting women to, (I forget all the German) “Kitchen, church, bedroom, children.”Sound familiar?******************************Hitler manipulated anyone he could. He signed political treaties he broke at will etc. All familiar stuff. That doesn’t alter the fact National Socialist, the political p