The Jim Wallis Generation

The summer after my sophomore year in college, I took to the road. I was up to my ears in … Continued

The summer after my sophomore year in college, I took to the road. I was up to my ears in critical analysis, and needed an equal education in concrete action.

My friend Jeff and I drove from Chicago south to Atlanta, and then north to Boston, looking for people leading lives of creativity and commitment. We spent a lot of time in Christian social justice communities, and the one name we kept hearing over and over again was Jim Wallis.

All of these places had copies of the magazine Rev. Wallis edits, Sojourners, on their coffee tables, and many had his books on their shelves. Some people even said that Jim Wallis was the closest thing alive to Dorothy Day, the heroic founder of the Catholic Worker movement. Like Dorothy, Jim Wallis was nurturing a community, a movement, and a new conversation about faith and politics all at the same time.

When Jeff and I arrived in DC, one of our first stops was the Sojourners offices. Jim’s colleagues said that his schedule was packed with meetings all day, and he was leaving the next morning on an extended trip. There was no hope of seeing him.

But Jeff and I didn’t give up that easily.

We found out where Jim’s house was – in a gritty neighborhood in DC – and we hung out on his porch until he came home. When Jim finally arrived, we told him our story and he talked to us for a good while about what it meant to connect faith and justice in our times.

The Religious Right was a dominant force in American politics then. And the things that we believed in – most of all, a public faith that expanded freedom and cared about people – seemed both a memory and a dream.

Over the next ten years or so, I went to see Jim Wallis preach every chance I got. Once, a few years ago, my wife and I were having a weekend getaway at a bed and breakfast in rural Michigan when I saw in the local paper that Jim was preaching at a church thirty miles away. I looked at my watch. We could make it if we wolfed our eggs down.

“You owe me another weekend away,” my wife said as we drove to the church. But when it was over, she commented that she hadn’t been inspired like that in a long time.

Nothing substitutes for Jim Wallis in the pulpit (or, if you’re lucky, in a personal conversation on his porch), but his new book, The Great Awakening, comes pretty close.

For many years, Rev. Wallis has been saying that “The monologue of the Religious Right is over.” In this book, he declares that movement dead and gone, and challenges people of good faith – which he explicitly states includes believers of all backgrounds, and nonbelievers as well – to fill that vacuum with spiritually-based pragmatic approaches that genuinely solve the problems of climate change, poverty and violence.

He likens our time to previous great awakenings, eras where movements that brought together spirituality and social justice changed the world.

My favorite stories in this book are about young people: The eleven year old girl who approaches Jim after his talk in Minneapolis and says, “Well … I think we are just going to have to change the world.”

“And who is going to do that?” he asks.

“I think people like me,” she answers.

A few days later, an eight-year-old girl approaches him and says, “When you talked about the silent tsunami that is killing so many children every day because of poverty – children, like me … I was just sitting there and started to think to myself, If I’m a Christian, I better do something about that.”

What astounded Jim about these young people was that they were saying that some things that we’ve gotten used to in this world are simply not acceptable – children starving, for one. They were taking responsibility for changing that, and connecting their deepest identity – their faith – to that change. They were saying, “I can’t be a Christian and stand by while that horror happens.” That combination of declaring business as usual unacceptable and committing mind, body and soul to overturning it has been at the heart of every great movement, from Civil Rights in America to the Struggle in South Africa.

In dark times, I hear Jim Wallis’s voice in my head, quoting Hebrews 11:1, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” And offering his famous paraphrase of that: Hope is believing in spite of the evidence, and then watching the evidence change.

Jim testifies that the evidence is in fact changing, the pendulum is swinging back. He is too humble to state another truth: that he and a few others have been doing the hard work of pushing that pendulum for the last three decades, preaching the good news during difficult times to small groups in church basements, patiently mentoring a generation of people who see faith and justice as necessarily linked.

We are coming of age now, the Jim Wallis generation. And we are ready to change the world.

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  • mischka

    Marian – Is it possible for you to read Eboo’s article without attacking him just because his name is Eboo Patel and not Thomas Johnson?Thank you for your unnecessary corrections – it just seems like a waste because Eboo never mentioned anything about Jesus being a Muslim or being a Prophet. Eboo shows a deep respect for religion – whether it is Islam or Christianity – I think you could benefit by learning from him.

  • Concerned The Christian Now Liberated

    Mischka,Your problems go beyond the critiques of Eboo Patel, Bin Ladens, the Shiite Iranian crazies and the Sunni “Wannabees” of Saudi Arabia.1. Belief in “pretty/ugly wingie thingies”.2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the “pretty Gabriel” in the hot “Gabe” cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. And Shiites think the same way about Sunnis. 4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed. And accusing someone of spreading hate and lies does not work when these “someones” are simply listing the facts. If you have counter points about your beliefs then list them. Hiding behind imams and clerics blinded by 1400 years of brainwashing serves no purpose other than to secure a dishonest living for said imams and clerics.

  • Stop the hatred

    Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:You are pathetic and indeed suffer from OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE BEHAVIORAL DISORDER.You are not liberated, but are trapped in your hate for Islam. Poor Eboo can not write a simple essay without you attacking him and Islam.The diagnosis is correct for you. Your diatribe is an utter failure and has changed no minds.

  • A. Kafir

    Stop the hatred, if you have ever taken even a freshman course in psychology, your chosen ‘avatar’ and the fact that you feel the need to comment on CCNL

  • Stop the hatred

    A. Kafir:You must be feeling lonely for being a proxy for CCNL. You must indeed be frustrated that no one listens to you because it is all hate and garbage.

  • Stop the hatred

    A. Kafir wrote: “Iran: Father ‘stones 14-year-old daughter to death’”Your analytical skills are zero. Your logic is beyond belief. You are the kind of person who would generalize from today’s TV news scence shown cruelty to slaughter house animals and say,”Americans are cruel people.” Such a generalization, of course, would be absurd.You would generalize from Timothy McVeigh’s misdeeds as “all blue eyed white Christians are terrorists”. Again, absurd.You would generalize from the unabomber as “all teachers are crazy as the unabomber was.” Once again absurd.You have no sense to accept that incident of Iran does not mean that that practice is rampant in Iran or any other country in the world.You should go back to college and take courses in reserach methodology as to how cause and effect relationships should be established. Until you do that your thought and logic will be classified as pathetic and your credibility, “zero.”

  • Concerned The Christian Now Liberated

    Stop the Hatred,The reality of it all is that the “pew sitters” and “bowers” are coming to grips with the flaws in their religions and in ten years the religions of today will be unrecognizable or extinct as the “pretty and ugly wingie flying thingies” are finally buried in the piles of utter stupidity. And no, I do not suffer from What I and most of the other homidids to include yourself suffer from is the Three B Syndrome i.e being Bred, Born and Brainwashed in religions that are based on hallucinations, myths, embellishments and lies. And what is almost hilarious about this is how we have bought into this fictional “pretty wingie thingie” for so long.The flaws to include the stupidity of the “angel” connections in all three Abrahamic religions are now known. We await your answers as to how you are going to clean up Islam. The clean-up of Judaism and Christianity is well on its way.

  • Concerned The Christian Now Liberated

    Eboo, Eboo, Eboo,You still don’t get it!!! The critical analyses that are needed are of the flaws in Islam. Without these analyses, your commentaries are mute.

  • A. Kafir

    Stop the hate;How are you going to deny thousands of “honor killings ” across the muslim lands that take place every year?You ignorance or willful blindness does not change the savagery and barbarism of Allah or muhammad one iota. The name of Muhammad is a curse on humanity and finally thanks to the Internet the truth about his death cult can be told. The darkness of the last 1400 years is finally coming to an end.

  • Anonymous

    “Hope is believing in spite of the evidence, and then watching the evidence change.” once again, after reading your column i leave a little richer- that’s a quote that inspires and transcends even the faith/non/faith divide. if any doubt the potency of hope on the human heart condition- visit a prison inmate. jazakalkhairum mr patel

  • VICTORIA

    oops- the previous post was from Victoria

  • marian

    Eboo Patel states-”In dark times, I hear Jim Wallis’s voice in my head, quoting Hebrews 11:1, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”I’m pleased you are able to use words from the Book of Hebrews as an affirmation of life. Since you have embraced Christian worldview- why not the full Gospel? Jesus is not an islamic prophet. He is not muslem. He was and is the long-awaited Jewish Messiah, a Torah-observant Jew who was born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.When recalling Hebrews 11:1 -also remember the words that follow- Hebrew 12:1-3

  • Arif

    “American Muslims are highly educated and articulate.There are Ph.Ds, M.D.s, Engineers, historians, social scientists and scientists among us. WE are fiercely American nationalists. Your mistake is that you think that we are ignorant and that your diatribe will go unchallenged”Stop the Hatred; Why don’t these highly educated people speak up? Why does Eboo not write about stoning in Islam? Honour killings; What Would Mohammed Do? What do the PhDs the doctors etc., think about stoning? What do they think about Mohammed (your prophet) who carried out this punishment? You do want to Stop The Hatred don’t you?You also say this;However majority of them believe in homor killings otherwise why hasn’t it stopped by now? This should cause outrage, what drives a father to stone his 14 year old daughter to death? Only Islam.

  • Joe

    Mr. Patel:Thank you for you thoughts on Jim Wallis. Like you, Jim is a good man. I agree with the comment stating if your name was Thomas Johnson you would not fire up the folks like you do. Post 9/11 hysteria. As a white, male Catholic I apologize to you for the negative, shallow and thoughtless comments made by my “Christian” brothers and sisters. You’ll have to excuse them as they are not the sharpest tools in the shead.

  • Joe

    Mr. Patel:Thank you for you thoughts on Jim Wallis. Like you, Jim is a good man. I agree with the comment stating if your name was Thomas Johnson you would not fire up the folks like you do. Post 9/11 hysteria. As a white, male Catholic I apologize to you for the negative, shallow and thoughtless comments made by my “Christian” brothers and sisters. You’ll have to excuse them as they are not the sharpest tools in the shead.

  • Anonymous

    “Joe”Here’s a tip:Learn English grammar and spelling.

  • Anonymous

    HiLLARY Clinton has been in the Senate just four more years than Mr. Obama, she has been on the Armed Services Committee and traveled around the world with Mr. McCain

  • Stop the hatred

    A. Kafir wrote: “Stop the hate;How are you going to deny thousands of “honor killings ” across the muslim lands that take place every year?”Folks! This person posted about a father in Iran stoning to death his 14 year old daughter.His intent: malign Muslims. After the rebuttal now he is shifting to “honor killings”. He shifts his arguments constantly and endlessly. He has no shame.True, there are occasional honor killings but not on the massive scale he is implying. This is why he has no credibility.

  • terra

    Stop the hatredYou need to up your gameyou posted”Folks! This person posted about a father in Iran stoning to death his 14 year old daughter..now he is shifting to “honor killings”a Kafr’s first post to you included a quote from the father who stoned his own child:”I suspected that my daughter had a relationship with a man and I had to stone her to death as she had besmirched my honour.”Honour killings happen daily in Muslim communities. The threat of death at the hands of a relative hangs over all young children in Muslim families keeping them under oppression. Stop the hatred Stop the stupidity

  • A. Kafir

    Stop the hate: You think when a woman is stoned for adultry (or sex), as this poor 14 year old was by her father, that is really any different from any other honor killings in the muslim lands? If you think killing of women is “not to that scale” then why don’t you look at the numbers put out by the muslim governments themselves. They run into the thousands every year. How much blood will satiate your Allah? His savagery has been demanding blood of humans for 1400 years and muhammadans have been obliging mindlessly.Use your brains and really stop the hatred of Islam.

  • Stop the hatred

    A. Kafir wrote: “Use your brains and really stop the hatred of Islam.”Even one stoning to death is one too many. It is a relic of the past and must be reformed.It happens when people are illiterate or semi-literate. The poor, the uneducated need to be brought out of poverty and ignorance. But your agenda is to malign all Muslims. There are more than 1.3 billion Muslims in the world. A vast majority of them do not practice honor killings.You are spreading hate and your intentions are questionable.American Muslims are highly educated and articulate.There are Ph.Ds, M.D.s, Engineers, historians, social scientists and scientists among us. WE are fiercely American nationalists. Your mistake is that you think that we are ignorant and that your diatribe will go unchallenged.

  • A. Kafir

    It is good to hear that you consider even one stoning too many. However you are wrong that it happens when people are illiterate or semi illiterate. The iranian mullahs, the saudi shaikhs, the pakistani judges of the Shariat court are far from illiterate or even semi-illiterate.Do you consider the judges of the shariat courts illiterate? I am one of the muslims of America. So what you tell me about the muslims of America is not news at all. I am not maligning muslims but I will not shut my eyes and play pretend. You see you just played pretend. Muhammad had couples stoned to death. It is a barbaric custom of the 7th century Arabia. As long as you tell yourself that every last bit of muhammad’s sunnah is worth being in Islamic sharia, then even the most educated will be silent against stoning of women!! Tariq Ramadan, the highly educated scholar in oxford, could not bring himself to condemn stoning. You see, if I ask you to say that Muhammad, your prophet, was practicing a savage ritual when he had women stoned and in that he was a savage, you will, if you call yourself a muslim, be unbale to agree to that simple truth. And you call yourself highly educated. Your Allah orders humans to carry out barbaric customs like cutting of limbs, crucifixion, etc. Your prophet burned eyes and bled people to death. And can you see those and without making excuses see that it is the acts of savage and barbaric “illiterate and semi illiterates” of 7th century arabia? Can you? I am not maligning muslims. I am making muslims like you sit up and at least come out and say that something needs reforming. You see I notice that you could not say that Islam needs reforming. I can read in your words your inability to say that the perfect religion of Allah needs reforming. And so you try to lie to yourself and tell that it is the ignorant and illiterate mullah who is at fault. Be honest, it is the stupid illiterate mullah who honestly and with all sincerity and zeal tries to carry out the word of Allah in its purity. It is you who has turned a munafiq and cannot face the truth about either yourself or about what is really islam.

  • Johnny B. Goode

    Eboo Patel,Silent tsunami? What about the wars in the Middle East where thousands of Muslims are being slaughtered by the western powers (mainly US) and millions are being dispossessed? Iraq is in complete shambles, thanks to the Bush Preemptive Doctrine that violates American and international law. Men, women, and children are being butchered and slaughtered, and you say nothing.The empty platitudes of you and Jim Wallis are simply mindboggling. You’re playing Sunday school pattycake on the Titanic.While there is a killing fever in this nation, you remain silent and play pretend church. Jesus never remained silent, and he never minced words. “I testify to the world, that the works thereof are evil.” The courage of Jesus to speak out openly against evil cost him his life.I have seen and heard Jim Wallis concur with the Roman Catholic apostate doctrine of “just wars.” Jesus never killed anyone, neither did he advocate killing anyone, nor did he sanction killing anyone. He laid down his life rather than kill and commanded his disciples to follow his example.You have public forums yet you say nothing against so-called Christians participating in wars and killing. You men are moral cowards and no Christians. Have you no shame?

  • Johnny B. Goode

    You strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

  • Arif

    Anti-Arif;Muslims have thick skulls; 1400 years of Islam will do that to anyone. Great civilizations have fallen to Islam only to become leeches in the world community. Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Arabia the Far East are all prime examples. When people accept Islam they begin to hate their ancestors and their past. Afghanistan, the people willingly destroy their wonderful past; all their art and history means nothing to them. Egyptians once a wonderful culture and people only to be brought down to its knees by Islam. The Persians once wrote a human rights declaration authored by Cyrus the Great that was comparable to the UN human rights declaration. Now these very people stone their women to death in public all in Allah’s name. Arabia, well what can I say, once good Bedouins turned into bad Bedouins. Those idiots could not even build their own place of worship, rasool allah stole it from the kafirs the cube they now call Kaabah, did you know that it was built in the 5th century A.D by a Himyarite pagan Yemeni by the name of Asa’d Abu Karb? Ring a bell my Mohammedan friend? Ka’aba used to be the name of the pagan mood goddess Kubaba (cube). The goddess of fertility, which is why the black rock thing you go kiss during hajj is shaped like a vagina. Maybe you need to go for hajj again and kiss that Vagina stone.Mohammedan writes; “Why are people still abusing alcohol and drugs despite the fact that results of such abuse are demonstrated to be so destructive?”Mohammedan writes; “Why are people still abusing alcohol and drugs despite the fact that results of such abuse are demonstrated to be so destructive?”Mohammedan writes: “Why is the divorce rate in the Western World so high despite the consequences of such divorces on children?”Mohammedan writes; “YOU ARE SO SHALLOW IN YOUR VIEWS.”

  • mischka

    A.Kafir – aka Arif the Kafir -How typical of the average anti-Muslim: First you say something nice and then you say something stupid. Arif, I have repeated myself waaaaaaaaaaaay too many times on these blogs on woman’s rights and so on. If you know anything about me by now – its that I hate repeating myself. We have talked about this -your lack of knowledge is a result of your laziness. You will not draw me into a pointless discussion with you when you have already made up your mind AGAINST Muslims.End of story.

  • mischka

    Equality of men and women:”For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God’s praise, for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward.” (33:35)”Who so does that which is right, and believes, whether male or female, him or her will We quicken to happy life.” (16:97)”Their Lord responds to them: ‘I will not let the deeds of any doer among you go to waste, male or female – you are both the same in that respect…” (Qur’an, 3:195)Respect for Women in the Qur’an:”O mankind! Revere your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from this pair scattered (like seeds) countless men and women. Revere God, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and reverence the wombs (that bore you); for God ever watches over you.” (4:1)More to come lata!!!!

  • Ibrahim Mahfouz

    Mischka:

  • mischka

    Marian – my original post was as follows -”Is it possible for you to read Eboo’s article without attacking him just because his name is Eboo Patel and not Thomas Johnson?Thank you for your unnecessary corrections – it just seems like a waste because Eboo never mentioned anything about Jesus being a Muslim or being a Prophet. Eboo shows a deep respect for religion – whether it is Islam or Christianity – I think you could benefit by learning from him.”You wrote back – “Your anger seems to be in response to his posts containing Christianity (not Islam). Its as though you are implying that Eboo Patel is a MINO (muslem in name only) because he choses to speak of admired Christians not Muslems. I think that is too harsh a judgment.”What anger? If anything, it was irritation towards you. The only thing I implied was your overzealous attitude in making sure all of us know what we already do. You couldnt read an article without pointing out unnecessarily to the whole world that Jesus was Christian and not Muslim. Maybe it bothers you that Eboo is a progressive Muslim that is confident in his faith and not intimidated by yours. Maybe it bothers you that even though he writes about Christians – he is still a devout Muslim. Why? What is so threatening about that?Talk about twisting of words! Eboo writes plenty about Muslims – a piece about Christianity does not bother me – I liked it. If he were reading this article in a room full of people – would you be the one shrieking at the top of your lungs that Jesus was a Christian and not a Muslim? Why must you be so typical? Its annoying…

  • mischka

    CCNL – did you know that I never read your posts? I know you respond to all of mine – but I never read them because they are always full of the same garbage. Plus, you seem creepy.

  • A. Kafir

    Mischka,Eboo is just about as confident of his Islam as you are of yours. At least you had the honesty and decency to try to answer the questions raised and asked. You could not answer and you more or less acknowledged that. Eboo on the other hand does not even have the confidence to answer. He is a half baked Ismaili and not even a muslim, and is terrified of answering the simplest of simple questions about islam. So what confidence are you talking about?Would you like to show where and how your quran teaches respect for women?

  • Anti-Arif

    Arif wrote:”However majority of them believe in homor killings otherwise why hasn’t it stopped by now?”Why hasn’t the caste system been abolished and the giving and taking of dowry stopped despite the passage of the Hindu Code Bill in 1950s of India?Why did the massacre of 1,000 Christians in Kenya recently taken place despite the message of Jesus?Why did the sectarian war in Northern Ireland kept on going for 400 years despite pleas of restraint from the rest of the world?Why are people still abusing alcohol and drugs despite the fact that results of such abuse are demonstrated to be so destructive?Why is the divorce rate in the Western World so high despite the consequences of such divorces on children?There are a lot of questions like these that have not been answered.YOU ARE SO SHALLOW IN YOUR VIEWS.

  • Arif

    Mischka writes; “A.Kafir – aka Arif the Kafir -”Kafir I might add writes and debates very well I wish I could do the same, however I feel privileged when you think that we are both the same person; a complement I might add. Sorry brother Kafir that some folks think of us as one.Mischka writes; “Arif, I have repeated myself waaaaaaaaaaaay too many times on these blogs on woman’s rights and so on.”Islamic women’s rights are an oxymoron. When a Muslima must camouflage herself in public then she has NO rights, restricted to 4-walls is hardly a right. Mischka writes; “If you know anything about me by now – its that I hate repeating myself. We have talked about this -your lack of knowledge is a result of your laziness.”You poor thing why would I know anything about you? I rarely read your stuff simply because you only rant. You argue like a child which can be funny though.Mischka says;You may or may not choose to answer; it’s hard defending Islam an ideology in conflict with itself. It’s not Muslims we are against its Islam, similar to hating cancer and not the inflicted.I hope your day is going as well as mine.Arif

  • mischka

    Arif – when I think of you – I think of the word LAZY. Do I hate you? No – I find you annoying, pitiful and old. I dont hate you. You had good reasons for leaving Islam – you have no discipline and you dont understand the religion AT ALL. You are predictable – you dont surprise me anymore. We talked about this – and here we are repeating ourselves YET again…When you speak of four walls – I have NO idea what you refer to. Unless you can prove, dont bother posting your pathetic comments. Again, even more LAZINESS. He makes allegations without providing support. LAZY. You came from an extremist family that has left you bitter and disoriented – whose fault is that? Why should we care what you went through? WHY????WHOSE PROBLEM IS IT? This is not about you – its about Islam. You’re a self-centered LAZY bum and no one here cares to give you a pity party. Thats the problem here. Right along with your alcoholism and stripping women whenever you feel like it. Thats your counseling session for today. You are trying so desperately to come off as if you dont care. If you didnt care – you wouldnt post. Yet here you are contradicting yourself. Predictable. As for your day – I doubt you have ever experienced a good day Arif in your measly existence. A small man like you can only go through life suffering, wimpering and whining to the world about how other people ruined his life…never taking responsibility for any of it himself…and you call ME a child???Honey – Im light years ahead of you…:-)

  • A. Kafir

    Mischka writes:”I didnt have any Kafir education – I have no idea what you are talking about and quite frankly – dont care. I have seen enough of you on these blogs to know that you are simply an anti-Muslim bigot and nothing more then that. Your quotes are distorted and taken out of context and you know it. Sorry – but its the truth.”You said you were educated in USA, did you not? Do you think that is Islamic education that you received? Think again. You draw comfort from calling me anti-muslim but you have never ever provided any example where I have been against muslims. I diss Islam for it is crap, but I have nothing against muslims except that they are conned into following a dead barbarian. Out of context? Why is that the standard excuse that muslims always fall back on? Is the Quran not clear enough? If you like you can show any tafsir, any exegesis you like. You quote Juan Cole and he is a fake since he is a Bahi and not even a muslim. He clearly distorts the quran. You quoted him about how muslims are say Salaam to a non-muslim and that means friendship. I showed you that you were wrong. You want to pick that discussion up, feel free to do that. You have as yet to show that Quran does not teach hate for the non-muslims. Just a few verses will do. I have shown you verse after verse showing that your Allah tells you not to take christians, jews, or pagans for friends. You like most muslims ignore that command of Allah, offer proof against yourself to allah, and do take non-muslim for friends. So where is the “out of context”?Then you write: Oh no, not at all, Mischka. There is no other “religion” out with a prophet who set the example of marrying a six year old and bedding her at nine. That is why it is allowed in Islam, and that is not a “custom” but Muhammad’s sunnah. That is why Muslim old men marry seven year old even in the present. Feel power in numbers? Where does that come from? When and where have I said anything about numbers? On the contrary, it is always the muslims that keep telling the kafirs that they are 1.2, not 1.5, no 1.8 billion strong etc. Facts and truth stated by a single child is sufficient to slay the falsehood of billions. What is true is true and does not go away whether we acknowledge it or not. The earth never did become flat although billions believed it for millenniums. I gave you the example of the old woman because you were talking about equality under Islam. Your prophet was a pedophile and married a six year old, and many of his companions were pedophiles and married children. That is why men are allowed to marry girl children, but women are not. It is not custom but Islamic Sharia. Then you write: Here you are wrong on both accounts. It is not prohibited to marry a child. Quran specifically allows men to marry girl children. You like most muslims just do not know your Islam or your Quran or your prophet’s Sunnah. What if I show you that Quran allows marriage of old men to little children, and show you that the tafsir writers have acknowledged that since the earliest times of Islam? Then marriage is not a sacred bond in Islam. It is civil contract. You were married. Show me a sacred line in the Nikahnama. You should have it and you should be able to read it. Sacred? Something that can be disposed with a Talaaq, Talaaq, Talaaq is not very sacred. Consent? Silly girl, the consent of a little child in Islam is her silence. You think that is consent? Really do yourself a favor and learn Islam. You are merely parroting lies that you have been taught.

  • mischka

    Kafir – are you kidding me with this??? You think the junk you write is intimidating??? Its not! I take it for what its worth – garbage and nothing more.And here we are repeating ourselves YET again!First of all – there is nothing in the Quran that says marrying at the age of nine is okay or forbidden. Marriageable age is after the woman has her period AND when she has reached a point in life that she can handle her own affairs.”[an-Nisa' 4:6] Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them;”Meaning, test them until you feel the child is mature enough to handle making their own decisions. That being said – it has also been confirmed in the Quran that all of his marriages were legal. There is not a single line in the Quran you will find that says Aisha was nine years old when she was married. If you use your logic here, the Prophet’s (pbuh) first wife was 25 yrs his senior and he was faithfully married to this woman for 25 years until she DIED. He was 50 at the time. His second wife was closer to him in age then Khadijah. How does it makes sense that he just up and married a nine year old like that? According to many narratives, she participated in the battles of Badr and Uhud. The minimum age to fight is 15 – how does that make sense here? You are telling me that I dont know my religion – I DO. Its you who doesnt know MY religion. You have to dig deeper then that if you want to break my faith or majority of the Muslims out there!

  • A. Kafir

    Mischka, You do not know your Islam. Here go check the following out. I cannot give you all the links because this site discards posts with too many links but I will give just a few and cite your great muslim scholars. 1. The saying of Allah: “And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]“. (At-Talaq 65:4)So, Allah set rulings of marriage, divorce and waiting period for the women who have not yet had menses, i.e. the young girls.The Iddah (waiting period) does not take place except after marriage.2. Allah also says: “And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four.” (An-Nisa 4:3)Ummul Mu’minin Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, said when she was asked about the interpretation of the above verse by her nephew Urwa Ibn Zubair, “O my nephew! This is about the orphan girl who lives with her guardian and shares his property. Her wealth and beauty may tempt him to marry her without giving her an adequate Mahr (bridal-money) which might have been given by another suitor. So, such guardians were forbidden to marry such orphan girls unless they treated them justly and gave them the most suitable Mahr; otherwise they were ordered to marry any other woman.”The saying of Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her,: “(… So, such guardians were forbidden to marry such orphan girls unless they treated them justly …)” is evidence that it is permissible in Islamic Shariah to marry a young girl who is not yet mature, since the person is no longer considered an orphan when he reaches the age of puberty. The orphanage state of being orphan exists only prior to maturity.3. Allah further says: “They ask your legal instruction concerning the Women. Say: Allah instructs you about them: and about what is recited unto you in the Book, concerning the orphans girls whom yoy give not the portions prescribed, and yet whom you desire to marry.” (Al-Nisa: 127)Ummul muminin Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, said: ” An Orphan girl used to be under the care of a guardian with whom she shared property. Her guardian, being attracted by her wealth and beauty, would intend to marry her without giving her a just Mahr, i.e. the same Mahr as any other person might give her (in case he married her). So such guardians were forbidden to do that unless they did justice to their female wards and gave them the highest Mahr their peers might get”.The evidence from the Sunnah is: The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) established the marriage contract with Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, when she was 6 years old, and he consummated the marriage with her when she was 9 years of age.It is reported in Sahih AlBukhari and Muslim that Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, said: “The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) established the marriage contract with me when I was 6 years of age and consummated the marriage with me when I was 9 years of age.”Ibn Qudama said in Al-Mughni: “There is no difference as regards a young girl who is still a virgin”. Ibn Al-Mundhir said: “The reliable people of knowledge agree unanimously that it is permissible for a father to marry his young and virgin daughter to an eligible man. It is also permissible for him to marry her.”Al Baghawi said, like in Fath Al-Bari,: “There is a consensus of the scholars that it is permissible for the fathers to marry their young daughters even if they are still in the cradle, but it is not permissible for the husbands to consummate the marriage with them, unless they become physically fit for sexual intercourse by mature males.”Now before you go making a fool of yourself again and arguing with the above fatwa, read the tafsir by ibn Kathir, Mawdudi, Jalalayn, Tabari, and ibn Abbas and you will find that they all agree with the fatwa given above. So do not go about yelling that I am making things up as you did last time and I posted the links for you. You have the links to the tafsirs ( tafsir dot com and altafsir dot come and check out what is being said for the verses quoted above) You can also get Maududi online. Tabari is also available. Think about it when you pray to your Allah next time and ask him why he could not spare half a verse to prohibit marriage of little child girls to old pedophiles? Do you understand how many millions of little muslim girls lives have been ruined and made miserable over the centuries? Think if you have any conscience left.

  • mischka

    Ibrahim -Punishment -This is totally false as there is NO death penalty for adultery in Islam. The penalty of adultery is equal for both men and women, and involves symbolic lashing. Social pressure, i.e., public witnessing of the penalty, is the basic punishment see 24:1-2 Inheritance -This is a common misconception even among the traditional Muslims themselves. Quran gives the parents total freedom to give their children as much as they see fit even if this means giving the females double what the males would get. Quran, however, commands that if a will is NOT left, then the estate is distributed in such a manner that the son gets double what the daughter gets. Generally, the son is responsible for a family, while the daughter is taken care of by a husband or her family. However, the Quran recommends in 2:180 that a will shall be left to conform with the specific circumstances of the deceased. For example, if the son is rich and the daughter is poor, one may leave a will giving the daughter everything, or twice as much as the son. Travel -This is a man made fabrication that has no support in the Quran. According to the Quran, women have no limitations on their moves, travels or activities. Men who hire themsleves guards on the women’s moves do this out of their own wishes not beause of any religious law in the Quran. Polygamy – Oy goodness – must you be so predictable?Polygamy is NOT encouraged in Islam – its discouraged and only to be practiced in an extreme situation. There is no sexual idea behind it either. A man can only take another woman for a wife if he:-Has the first wife’s permissionPloygamy is not a joke – the only reason it was even allowed was to aid and shelter hundreds of women left with children after wars. Ibrahim – think before you speak. If you dont – you simply come across as tiresome and run the risk of getting dismissed.

  • mischka

    Arif the Kafir – I didnt have any Kafir education – I have no idea what you are talking about and quite frankly – dont care. I have seen enough of you on these blogs to know that you are simply an anti-Muslim bigot and nothing more then that. Your quotes are distorted and taken out of context and you know it. Sorry – but its the truth.”So what equality are you talking about? Here is a simple test: Can a 70 year old man marry a 9 year old girl in Islam? Yes and they do and have been doing for over a thousand years. Can a seventy year old woman marry a 9 year old boy? Ever wonder about that?”This test of yours seems to be true for almost every single religion, race and tribe out there. Yet, you point your finger at Islam because its convenient right now. This is a custom – not a religious mandate. People like you never make a difference because you feel power in numbers. You think whatever the majority of your brainwashed friends think. Thats it. Quran deals with a variety of people and situations – marriage being one of them. Quran does not state specifically whether one can marry a child or that it is prohibited. Islam does consider marriage a sacred bond and requires parties to be ‘aware’ of what they are doing and consent to it.

  • mischka

    Arif – I consider you to be the scum of the earth…the filthiest substance a man can be made of. You are disgusting because you hate Muslims. Not because you are not a Muslim…I have plenty of non-Muslim friends…dont hate them at all. But you just bring that out in people – you are pathetic. Everything you say comes from that neglected place in your sad and sick little heart. You have no family and you have no friends – its pretty obvious. What did your parents say to you when you told them you think their religion is disgusting? I highly doubt you have much going on in your life aside from some dingy little rat hole you call a home.You actually consider hating Muslims and Islam to be a good thing: its not!As for the end of Islam and blah blah blah (words of a blithering idiot) – I doubt the prophecies of a TV scholar like yourself hold any weight but have you looked at the numbers recently? I bet not…lolI am always right about you – worthless is all you are. And from here on forward – you will no longer get any more responses from me. Im arguing with a womanizing lush named Arif – sounds disgusting. If you had even an iota of intelligence, tact, manners, education, morals, class, values, SOMETHING – ANYTHING – this argument MIGHT have been worth having. However, seeing as you dont – its not.

  • Ibrahim Mahfouz

    Mischka:

  • A. Kafir

    Mischka,Are you going to try to answer what I posted for you? Do you want additional references for the issue of how women are treated in Islam? Please tell me that I am wrong and why? Have you ever read what the Shia Imams consider Halal for young girl toddlers? If you have not, you really should. It will tell you more about where Islam stands.

  • mischka

    Ibrahim -”I think the punishment for you and the other women who try to defend the indefensible should be deported to Saudi Arabia if you are Sunni or to Iran if you are Shia.”See – this is what I mean when I say stupid posts begin stupid and end stupid. Why would I go to Saudi Arabia? Or to Iran? Im not Saudi or Irani…and who are you to decide such things? A numbskull named Ibrahim Mahfouz????????? Lets send all the Jews away too and all the Christians! What an a**!!!!Change your name and then come on these blogs to talk about deportation.

  • A. Kafir

    Mischka,I have just shown you the big time luminaries of Islam saying that it is okay by Allah to sexually exploit female toddlers, and your response to that is shutting your ears and eyes as tightly as you can? Your Allah wants humans to be tortured to death, and your response … close your eyes and ears? Your Allah wants humans to cut off the limbs of other humans and your response is justifying that savagery? Your prophet burns eyes and tortures other humans to death and your response?Mischka, is this the Allah you plan on teaching and telling your kids? Your Allah seals the hearts, eyes, and ears of the Kafirs. No one is sealing your heart, eyes or ears. Why are you doing that to yourself?

  • Arif

    Mischka writes; “Do I hate you? No ” Oh you do, You loath me, the on and off caps display your disdain very clearly. Hatred comes naturally for Muslims, its a gift from Islam and comes with the teachings. Msichka, Islam is finished. There is nothing left in this religion/cult, everything is exposed, your rasool, his koran, his allah, that angel who no one else saw, the lies are out. No one takes islam seriously, this religion has begun to implode, ironic isn’t it that the Muslims explode while the religion implodes. You say; “You came from an extremist family that has left you bitter and disoriented – whose fault is that? Why should we care what you went through? WHY????”What ever gave you that idea? I love my family in fact I was just in Pakistan visiting. I may have pointed out the absurdities of Islam in my family but they are lovely people and I love them dearly and they do me. Some more childish tantrums; “As for your day – I doubt you have ever experienced a good day Arif in your measly existence. A small man like you can only go through life suffering, wimpering and whining to the world about how other people ruined his life…never taking responsibility for any of it himself…and you call ME a child???”Wow woman you relly hate me don’t you? Is that scarf a little too tight around your neck? Having a bad day? Mischka says; “Honey – Im light years ahead of you…”Sure your are.Mischka While you digest Kafirs post showing Islam exploiting female todlers for sex, here is another thing you need to do some research on; afterall its yuor deen. Do you know that Abu Bkr’s real name was Abdul Ka’aba when he converted to Islam he was named Abdullah (servant of Allah) by Mohammed. However he was called Abu Bkr (Father of a virgin) only because he allowed Mohammed to have his virgin daughter for the first time in his life. There are whole lot of questions that arise here that you might ask yourself. Take off your scarf and do som reserarch, for example why Abu Bkr’s name change from Abdul Ka’aba (servant of goddess Kubaba) to Abdullah (servant of Allah) to Abu Bkr? Its obvious to Kafirs but muslims will typically dismiss such truths because they are so burried in lies.I hope your Jummah goes well as Mine is perfect! Go do some gymnastics for Allah and ask for some guidance.Arif

  • mischka

    Yeah Ibrahim – you sound like a VERY busy person – especially when you manage to appear here every ten minutes…lolAnyway, about my name…you numbskull…its a screen name. And if you knew anything about anything you might be able to guess where its from. However, you are as usual – WRONG! What can I expect from a moron?The reason why I dislike your existence is because you are a hateful man towards my religion and people. I have TONS of non-Muslim friends…Kafirs. However, they are not hateful people and dont attack me or my religion. Nor do I attack theirs. It works well. Also, did you read my post about the overbearing middle eastern man? Did you at least understand it? It seems as if you didnt…read it again…its in English so you should be okay. You dont know this kind of life. You are pitiful…

  • Ibrahim Mahfouz.

    Mischka:

  • Anonymous

    Mischka:There are People on this blog who get paid for writing hatred against Islam. They negate every good principle associated with Islam and are not looking for reason (or) truth, because their pay checks get trimmed.It is same as singing a song in front of a deaf & blind person with dead heart.

  • James

    A. KafirI hope you will conceive one day based on your understanding of equality with women.Stupid people like you create undue rift in communities

  • James

    A. KafirI hope you will conceive one day based on your understanding of equality with women.Stupid people like you create undue rift in communities

  • equal

    Dr.Tarig Al Swaidan discovered some verses in the Holy Qur’an That mention one thing is equal to another, i.e. men are equal to women.Although this makes sense grammatically, the astonishing fact is that the number oftimes the word man appears in the Holy Qur’an is 24 and number of times the wordwoman appears is also 24, therefore not only is this phrase correct inthe grammatical sense but also true mathematically, i.e. 24 = 24.Upon further analysis of various verses, he discovered that this is consistent throughout the whole Holy Qur’an

  • Ibrahim Mahfouz

    Mischka:Yeah! With a name like that I suppose your ancestors came on the Mayflower. What you are really saying is that you are here in this country by accident. Well that can be easily rectified. As for me I am here by choice. I worked hard and long and traveled ten thousand miles to be here and escape the darkness of failed societies with their archaic institutions.

  • mischka

    “You can afford to philosophize, rationalize and double talk to defend the indefensible barbaric treatment of women by the Sharia, because it does not impact you. You ran away from your failed society and voted against it with your feet. If you are made to live under the Sharia in Saudi Arabia or Iran you would not be enamored by the Sharia as you seem to be. In fact the mention of moving there made you ballistic.”Ibrahim – do you have a job? Is your wife paying your bills for you while you sit home and blog all day? Typical Middle eastern pigs – make the woman do all the dirty work while you stay home to entertain yourself. Im going to say a few things and then be done with this because talking to you leads to NOTHING. You have a coconut for a brain and its rotten now.First of all – I didnt run anywhere. Ive been in America my entire life. I am not a naturalized citizen – I am a born citizen. If anyone ran – it was you. I can tell by your English that you have an accent. :-) Dont even try to deny it. Second, where have I said that I was enamored by Sharia? Show me a post in which I have said that I want Sharia. Again, more lies by a typical, overbearing, middle eastern, egotistical man who thinks his word is the law and better then a woman’s. Lastly, if you consider that ballistic then your woman must walk on eggshells around you. Its not Islam that tortures women, its overbearing men like you who try to push women around because you consider them beneath you and inferior. I wash my hands completely of this idiot.

  • A. Kafir

    James writes: “I hope you will conceive one day based on your understanding of equality with women.Stupid people like you create undue rift in communities”I have already conceived and it was the birth of my daughter and seeing her grow that led me to finally and fully reject Allah. I cannot wish my worst ‘enemy’ what Islam stores for the muslim girls. Kafirs have to insist on freedom of speech and then equality for girls and women. Muslims are my community. Why would I want to abandon them to the barbarity and savagery of the 7th century? You see, Mr. James, perhaps all you are interested in is “inter-faith” dialog and peace between the communities. I am out to save and help my community. You may be can afford the luxury of being selective of which humans you really care about and letting the Muslims rot in the 7th century. I cannot. They are my people.Why don’t you tell me if I have written anything that is wrong or false? Equal writes:Nonsense. Anyone can check this for themeselves these days. Man or men appears just about 700 times and woman and women appears about 100 times. Man appears about 226 times and woman appears about 29 times. These numbers hold whether one searchs in “Arabic” or in English translations. The number 24 is so way off that it is simply silly.Anonymous writes: “There are People on this blog who get paid for writing hatred against Islam.”Who gets paid for writing hatred against Islam? Why don’t you take some names? I have never ever been paid a cent or made a cent off writing anything against Islam. And, Thank you for saying “against Islam” and not the standard whine of “against muslims”. I do expose islam for the crap it is all the time, but I never ever write or say anything against the muslims.

  • Anonymous

    All of Western Culture Pretended towards liberation women and we have the result infront of us as a tool of attraction for marketing. Ibrahim if you are a kafir you should also change your name. You cannot appear in the same blog with different names & disguise as a saivor of women.What does your Christanity or Judaism say about women?

  • A. Kafir

    Anonymous writes: “All of Western Culture Pretended towards liberation women and we have the result infront of us as a tool of attraction for marketing.”The standard Islamic way of arguing. The question is how Islam treats women, and the answer is see how bad the western culture is, see how bad christianity and juadism are for women!! Anonymous, let us assume that western culture, christianity, and judaism are horrible for women. How does that affect one teensy weensy iota that islam is horrible for women? You think sexual exploitation of female toddlers is good for women? Thighing is good for little girls? Covering women up and telling that the men around are totally incapable of control and therefore they have to lose their freedom of movement is good for women? Telling them that their testimony is only worth half of that of a man is good for women? Inheriting half of what their brothers get is good for women? Polygany is good for women? Talaaq, Talaaq, Talaaq and then losing all rights to their children is good for women? And the list keeps going on and on.

  • mischka

    Ibrahim – “Is it not ironic that a man fights for women’s rights and women denigrate him for that?”Is this the newest version of a Middle Eastern pick up line? Hunh?You are not fighting for anyone’s rights this way. Do you think Muslim women want you to help them when you hate the Allah they belive so much in? You denounce their way of life and claim to want to help them. Sounds logical to me. Why wouldnt Muslim women want to hear you? Did you see what just happened between you and I? Your approach is wrong. Islam does not limit women – the sooner you start to understand that – the better equipped you will be to help women – IF that is what you really want. They have God-given rights to do as they please – their problem is the culture they are in and the typical overbearing Middle Eastern men who think women are their property. This is not Islam’s fault. God gives you religion, guidance, rules, commandments, laws, etc. HOWEVER, HE ALSO gives you a brain, intelligence, courage, compassion, strength of mind and character, a heart, love, sympathy, etc. Its upto women to USE IT! UNTIL they understand that they are NOT oppressed – mistreatment will continue to happen.Instead of trying to hurt Muslims by defaming their religion and making ALL of them look like barbarians – let’s see you try to help. As for Kafir – you know NOTHING about Islam and it shows in your misrepresentations AND limited knowledge of Middle Eastern culture.

  • Arif

    Mischka spews: Mischka, it matters not what you consider me to be, what most matters is; who was Mohammed and who is this Allah he invented? You may believe whatever you want to about me but it will not change a thing; your prophet will still be scum. To me and to a rapidly growing number of people this man (rasool allah) was a criminal.People who don’t believe that Islam kills its apostates will read your venom and decide for themselves. Apostates who go public with these accusations about Islam see Islam’s full vengeance, even their families would not be safe. Your words say it all.He looted, he raided, he pillaged and he raped, he coveted wives, he sold women and children, he owned slaves, he fondled a child and later had sex with her, he took his sons wife for his own, the list goes on and on. After all the evidence presented how can seemingly sensible people still believe in this man? Those non-Muslim friends of yours simply don’t know you otherwise they would have nothing to do with you.Mischka spews:Mischka spews:Silly woman, as if I care? I post for the world to see the filthy “deen” you pathetic people follow. My posts were never for you, if I addressed you it was because of your childish rants. Again, you defend your religion like a high school kid.”If you had even an iota of intelligence, tact, manners, education, morals, class, values, SOMETHING… “Woman, proof of even an iota of intelligence is people who don’t knowingly follow cults.

  • A. Kafir

    Mischka, it is one thing to be ignorant but to know something and to go into denial and then to justify it is an entirely different matter. Now you are beginning to justify the cruelty to women in Islam. Shame on you. You sell your soul cheaply to a dead ideology of a long dead butcher of arabia.

  • mischka

    Arif – You are scum and you know it too. You havent done ANYTHING on these boards aside from cause trouble. You NEVER ask, you ACCUSE. You NEVER question, you INSULT and you ALWAYS INITIATE IT. Is THIS your way of reaching out to people? How idiotic! This is the MOST irresponsible way of reaching out to people. People shut you out because you are malicious and evil. Thats it. We already know about your troubled childhood and the abuse you suffered – now you want to tell us that your alcoholism and womanizing is Islam’s fault too? What else do you want to blame on Islam that went wrong in your life? Your finances? The woman you married? The kids you had? The car you drive? The face you got? Baldness? Bad breath? Your beer gut? I bet your list grows every night…because you are LAZY.As for my scarf – are you kidding me? It feels great to wear it. I wear it because I want to you numbskull. People respect me and I like it.I bet you hate that.You call me childish only because that is EXACTLY what you are. *An irresponsible and lazy brat that wants to shift the blame of his own failures onto Islam.* You are an insult to religion AND Pakistanis. Find a cliff and jump off of it.

  • Arif

    Mischka writes:Islam does damage the brain, this is your Islamic upbringing that is making you think this way? Mischka writes:Then she assumes this…More assumption…Some more anger…Mischka writes:Mischka writes:Mischka writes:

  • mischka

    Ibrahim – Have you ever bothered to find out anything aside from the blind posts that you throw on here hoping something will stick??Inheritance is for woman is half ONLY because usually we have a provider. Her brother is a provider for his own family and therefore much more in need then a woman. However, these are NOT mandates. They are recommendations. If she doesnt have a provider – it is her brother’s responsibility to make sure she is taken care of. A woman is ALWAYS looked after.Now get to work!I dont have the kind of time you unemployed and useless have.

  • A. Kafir

    Mischka writes: “A woman is ALWAYS looked after”.That is a lie. That is being blind to the misery of women across the world. Since you hail from Pakistan.***********************************In the rural areas, women are like slaves subject to drudgery. They are there just to obey their fathers, brothers and husbands. They do not have the right to decide about themselves because women are considered as foolish creatures according to the dominant social and cultural norms. Likewise marriage is also a sort of trade between different families both in the rural and urban areas. They are highly vulnerable to violation of their rights to life.A woman’s right to liberty is restricted in the name of modesty, protection and prevention of immoral activity. In rural areas 90% of women work in the fields. They work for the whole day with their male family members, but they still have to face their wrath. Male family members keep a strict eye on the female family members in the name of “honour”. But one must understand the meaning of honour because in our society honour does not have the meaning of its true sense. Here it really means possession of women as a form of property. Not only are the restrictions of women’s liberty maintained in the name of this honour (ghairat) but they also can be put to death if they lose their “honour”. At the same time the gender insensitivity is so severe that from the cradle to the grave women are forced to lead a discriminated life. There are more infant deaths among girls than among boys. Every year 135,000 women die during childbirth in Pakistan. Only 11% of women have access to medical facilities during childbirth.The tragedy with the women’s movements is that women from the upper classes, who mostly dominate them, have never had to suffer the same ordeals as the women of the oppressed classes. The adverse conditions in important sectors such as public hygiene, health and education, have a greater bearing on women of the working classes. Hence the struggle for the rights of women and their liberation have different meanings for women of different classes. Mischka, you are so determined to ignore facts on the ground. Women are Always looked after? You do live a sheltered life.